So I just finished and I am a little confused... (WHOLE THREAD IS SPOILER)

My two wooden nickels:

If you look away from the story for a bit, you'll probably see that XII seems (to me, anyway) to take a decisive step away from previous FFs: Shiva, Ifrit and all those other summons-gang are revived as airships, later destroyed. New names for the Espers, all vicious-sounding. Battle-system much revised, quite a lot like ye olde Infinity-powered D&D-CRPGs some of us know and love. (Although with this battle-system and the graphics, FF12 felt more like what Summoner 2 should have been...)
Continuing along those lines, the story seems a fair deal more mature - and the dialogues are written in such a beautiful english! That alone can cause a replay! :D By mature, I simply mean that all that in-your-face drama FF usually brings with it is pretty much absent. No moral pointers, it lets things be as complicated as they indeed are. I love that aspect of the story no end, but that's me.
I agree that the Occuria/Venat gets quite little exposure, but I was unable to play the game "cover-to-cover" - for largely irrelevant reasons I was sometimes away from it for weeks on end. Maybe it'll clear up in another play-through.

As for Vayne being a villain or not, he always was the antagonist, anyway. To yet again spawn some D&D here, :p I'd say he was True Neutral rather than strictly speaking evil. (As I understand it, True Neutral means that the person in question will follow laws when it suits him/her, violate them otherwise [patricide? fratricide?], doesn't care much for good or evil if there's nothing to gain from it.) I could stretch myself to Neutral Evil if needed... but we all know the really vicious demons are fighting it out in the Blood War, determining whether Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil is the worst. :D

... Maybe I should just shut up now. I bin playin Baldur's Gate 2. Yea.

I'm in the minority as well. Sigh.

Loved X, XII is *alright*.

Now, one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light. First and foremost, this is a story driven videogame. Thusly, I expect all important story related elements to be present in the main narrative. I feel that, since this is a story, that argument shouldn't hold water because we need to at least be presented with all the information and then make our own conclusions(like who Cloud really liked Tifa or Aeris). I was especially irritated at the explanation of Vayne's and Doctor Cid's motives and what made them so bad. Why did Venat decide to help them? At least in other instances if you dug deep enough you could find something. A good, solid story should present you with a scenario, offer you all the facts and let you decide on your own what was right and wrong. This story presented you with a scenario, presented you SOME of the facts, and left you to fill in the blanks yourself.

Sorry if that sounded a little convoluted....lol
I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)

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Originally Posted by WritinginaRedState

one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light....

I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)

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Yeah, that annoys me. Like there is anything real about Moogles, Espers and Chocobos.

And copying a line out of Hamlet does not a literary masterpiece make.

Hearing jerks saying their favorite video game is "too mature" or "too deep" for my taste is kinda hearing kids playing with LEGO telling me that their engineering skills are superior :p

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Originally Posted by WritinginaRedState

I'm in the minority as well. Sigh.

Loved X, XII is *alright*.

Now, one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light. First and foremost, this is a story driven videogame. Thusly, I expect all important story related elements to be present in the main narrative. I feel that, since this is a story, that argument shouldn't hold water because we need to at least be presented with all the information and then make our own conclusions(like who Cloud really liked Tifa or Aeris). I was especially irritated at the explanation of Vayne's and Doctor Cid's motives and what made them so bad. Why did Venat decide to help them? At least in other instances if you dug deep enough you could find something. A good, solid story should present you with a scenario, offer you all the facts and let you decide on your own what was right and wrong. This story presented you with a scenario, presented you SOME of the facts, and left you to fill in the blanks yourself.

Sorry if that sounded a little convoluted....lol
I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)

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I felt it was rather obvious (but it may have just been me). Venat wanted the other Occurians to act so he chose Cid (the know how to make nethicite) and Vayne (the political figure who would have no issue causing global chaos and actually use the nethicite) I think Venat was counting on your party to wipe out the Sun-Cryst and the Occurians hold on society.

As for Venat's motive... this is pure specualtion but I think it was never made clear cause it would reveal what the Occurians really are. The game never really says what they are. Are they aliens? beings from another dimension? gods? Some stories need mystery and not everything needs to be explained so I feel that if Venat was given a motive it would clue the player into the identity of the main chess players in the game. Come on, the Occurians are much more interesting when we really don't know what they are.;)

As for the stories "maturity" I think it does come from the sense of realism to the series (on a political and historical level mostly). Most FF's steer clear from politics and though many of the games in the series have historical backgrounds, it's not nearly as in-depth as XII's. I don't necessarily believe this makes XII superior to past games, but rather shows a level of story evolution that the series needs. Wouldn't you love to play your favorite FF with a fleshed out history that has more story significance as opposed to "remember that this happened here cause you'll need it to acquire a special weapon" as opposed to.. "remember this as this will give you a complete idea of the mindset of the people here as well as show insight into how this culture reacts to these people from other there..." It's kinda've neat don't you think?:)

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

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Originally Posted by WritinginaRedState

one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light....

I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)

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Yeah, that annoys me. Like there is anything real about Moogles, Espers and Chocobos.

And copying a line out of Hamlet does not a literary masterpiece make.

Hearing jerks saying their favorite video game is "too mature" or "too deep" for my taste is kinda hearing kids playing with LEGO telling me that their engineering skills are superior :p

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I understand this... try being an FF fan in a Xenogear/Saga forum... you'll meet the most pretentious fans you can imagine:rolleyes2

Both series have their good and bad points.

Don't get me wrong. I do like Final Fantasy XII, but for the first time in the series history I played for the gameplay, not the story. There are some videos on youtube that go through all the cutscenes. I've tried watching all those to see if I missed anything.

I think this game might be better if you go straight through it without any breaks. I had to take a week off for finals and when I came back to it I couldn't remember hardly anything relevant to the plot.

I hope they go back to character-driven plots in XIII.

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Originally Posted by WritinginaRedState

Both series have their good and bad points.

Don't get me wrong. I do like Final Fantasy XII, but for the first time in the series history I played for the gameplay, not the story. There are some videos on youtube that go through all the cutscenes. I've tried watching all those to see if I missed anything.

I think this game might be better if you go straight through it without any breaks. I had to take a week off for finals and when I came back to it I couldn't remember hardly anything relevant to the plot.

I hope they go back to character-driven plots in XIII.

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I do believe that XII's weakness was how the story is separated by hours of dungeons and traveling so if you weren't playing it consistenly, you lose out on the story side of it.

I prefer story driven myself but I like character driven as long as there is no central main character. Usually the side characters are more interesting but they usually get overshadowed by the main character. If you don't like the main character(s) then the story quickly becomes unbearable (which is my primary issue with FFX). So as long as it's decentralized I have a better chance of enjoying it:D

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

That whole speech at the beginning from Vayne was just to garner support. Essentially, he just wants power for himself and Archadia - but he doesnt necessarily want people to suffer. However, he doesnt mind making them suffer if it will help him to acheive his goal. His motivations led to him opposing the Occuria and attempting to become a Dynast King.

He also has a soft side for his brother Larsa. But he kills his other brothers, although I cant remember exactly why. It was under the orders of Emperror Gramis I think.



About the Judges. I loved how they all had different personalities.

Gabranth: Hated his brother. Wants to protect the innocent Larsa. Loyal to the emperror (before his death).

Bergan: Loves battle and war. Loyal to Vayne and his aggressive tactics. Uses the power of manufactured Nethicite inorder to get 'The reigns of history back in the hands of man.'

Drace: Protective of Larsa. Fears Vayne. Wants peace.

Ghis: Wants power for himself. Attempts to use the nethicite for his own gain, but dies.

Zargabaath: More mysterious. Wants to protect Larsa and friends with Drace. But does not interfere with Vayne and Bergan due to fear. Follows orders.




After examination, this story is actually good. Its just not fleshed out enough in game. There is a reason why everything happened, the weakest being Noahs disproportionate hate for Basch.

Character developement + political intrigue = awesome storyline.

Unfortunately, the first was somewhat lacking.

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

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Guilty as charged :(

I just think their styles are very different, X is completely removed from our world (semi-rural Spira) and character centric, with oodles of love story, XII is just the opposite: no love story, little focus on individual characters, a very recognizable plot (rescue a kingdom from tyranny).

You are allowed to like both styles and ignore my lame guess though :love:

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

After examination, this story is actually good. Its just not fleshed out enough in game.

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I agree to that. It is not my favorite theme, as I'm quite weary of politics and Empire aspirations in general, thanks to our Empire building US President, but that is another story :mad:.

And I do feel it wasn't fleshed out enough in the game, in spite of Wolf Kanno's and other fans doing an excellent job of fleshing it out for me afterwards ;)

I recently learned that the game scenario writer had to leave the development team before the completion due to a serious illness. All I can say is that it is a pity because it shows. I can definitely see lots of threads left too open in XII.

^Yep. I fear Yasumi Matsuno attempted to achieve too much. The people at SE wanted a more generic RPG, whereas he wanted to revolutionise it with Basch and Balthier as the main characters. In the end, he was forced to settle for a compromise. He then left mid-way through developement, with the remaining team slightly confused over how it was meant to be.

Also, the whole sky pirate thing was supposed to be more developed. Elza and Rikken - and more minor characters were supposed to have a larger roles. Notice their intricate designs, yet they only had a few lines.

Personally, I loved FFX's story. Not as good as FFIX's though - because that has the best characters ever imaginably....*goes into FFIX fanboy mode*. However, FFXII story was still good. I disagree about it being cliched. FFX was more cliched and simple. But in a way, thats what made it effective. It wasnt over ambitious and developed so thoroughly upon practically every aspect.

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

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They are both written differently, one's character driven (FFX) while the other is story driven (XII) but the main eye to eye issue is that we are seeing the same thing that happened back when FFVIII came out. VII brought forth a new fanbase and most found VIII to be a major disappointment. FFX has also brought forth a new fanbase and XII is a very foreign concept to them. It's why you notice more X fans hating the game than any other. At least that's my opinion...

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

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Guilty as charged :(

I just think their styles are very different, X is completely removed from our world (semi-rural Spira) and character centric, with oodles of love story, XII is just the opposite: no love story, little focus on individual characters, a very recognizable plot (rescue a kingdom from tyranny).

You are allowed to like both styles and ignore my lame guess though :love:

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

After examination, this story is actually good. Its just not fleshed out enough in game.

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I agree to that. It is not my favorite theme, as I'm quite weary of politics and Empire aspirations in general, thanks to our Empire building US President, but that is another story :mad:.

And I do feel it wasn't fleshed out enough in the game, in spite of Wolf Kanno's and other fans doing an excellent job of fleshing it out for me afterwards ;)

I recently learned that the game scenario writer had to leave the development team before the completion due to a serious illness. All I can say is that it is a pity because it shows. I can definitely see lots of threads left too open in XII.

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Spira is not that foreign if you know a bit about Japanese culture. Spira is based off the island of Okinawa, as well as the story being based on Japanese folk tales, especially the story of the Orochi dragon.;)

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

^Yep. I fear Yasumi Matsuno attempted to achieve too much. The people at SE wanted a more generic RPG, whereas he wanted to revolutionise it with Basch and Balthier as the main characters. In the end, he was forced to settle for a compromise. He then left mid-way through developement, with the remaining team slightly confused over how it was meant to be.

Also, the whole sky pirate thing was supposed to be more developed. Elza and Rikken - and more minor characters were supposed to have a larger roles. Notice their intricate designs, yet they only had a few lines.

Personally, I loved FFX's story. Not as good as FFIX's though - because that has the best characters ever imaginably....*goes into FFIX fanboy mode*. However, FFXII story was still good. I disagree about it being cliched. FFX was more cliched and simple. But in a way, thats what made it effective. It wasnt over ambitious and developed so thoroughly upon practically every aspect.

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I love FFIX as well:)

It's a shame about Matsuno leaving half way through... He has written my favorite FF script (FFTactics) and has proven time and again that he's one of the best writers currently at Squenix. Though I wonder if he still works there seeing as he sorta've "disappeared" after he left developement of XII. Just like Sakeguchi "disappeared" after Spirits Within.:(

^Yep, its a great shame.

It seems like they only have Nomura left as their one big name. Sakaguchi left to do Blue Dragon didnt he? And I dont think Matsuno will come back properly. :(

I heard that Vagrant Story's story was a masterpiece. Have you played it?

Yes I have:cool:

It's an incredible game with a very deep and wonderful plot. Honestly, Matsuno writes some of the most interesting characters. Sydney Lossarette is really how Vayne should have been.

Vayne is an anti-hero, and we do not know his full story arc, because this is the middle installment of the story. Murder does not necessarily make one evil, nor does building an empire.

Without a strong governing power civilization cannot exist. Archades is facing civil war. It is necessary for Vayne to assume the throne quickly and dissolve the Senate before this occurs. He chooses not to kill Larsa, even though it would seem the quickest way to secure the throne.

Vayne's ambition seems to be bring the dawn of a new era free of theocratic rule. It is also blazingly clear that his real goal is to create tools to bring down these heavy handed 'gods.' He gambled that his brother Larsa would remain partial to Vayne's leadership.

The immediate response is that Lady Ashe assuming the throne and the open dialog between the three countries is good. I doubt this will last. She is a single woman who has all the political savvy of a donkey. XII-2: Gee all of Ivalice is at the brink of war and look at that big shiny nethicite ...

If I was to think on a real note, I would definitely state that Vaan and Penelo wouldn't be active in this story and it's blatantly unrealistic and slightly annoying to realize that you got two seventeen year old sky pirate wannabes in your party.

I would of accepted the game more, if things came more silky into concept, for example: Reddas and one of the sky pirates join the party at an earlier stage in the story. I feel that would of made more sense.