Quote:
Originally Posted by
silentenigma
While Tifa's AV loop can actually go either way (to either infinitely add or subtract from her score) I have reviewed the mechanics and you are right, it's pretty easy to rack up a high tifa score in the beginning. I took the 'average' point values for all the AV situations and they end up pretty even for Tifa and Aeris when the extra 20 points are added.
There's also an infinite Yuffie loop too.
But yes, even without the loop, Tifa can easily pull ahead just by being nice to her in the beginning and not favoring either girl afterwards.
Quote:
I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.
It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.
Quote:
I'm glad you acknowledge Nibelheim, because while it may not be an issue for you, I have a big problem with how much it's been changed. And here's a quick list of just a few things from the compilation which retcon the original game or, in my opinion, undermine the original game in some way:
Crisis Core does most of the retconning:
Cloud mimicking Zack due to his instruction to become Zack's "living legacy/proof of existence" rather than completely due to Jenova's cells taking advantage of his weaknesses.
That isn't a retcon. Cloud still BELIEVES he is Zack during this time because of Jenova's meddling. Zack's words don't influence this.
Quote:
Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.
The previous version was a recollection by Cloud. It is prone to error.
Cloud being able to speak or not was not actually specifically mentioned one way or another, previously.
Quote:
Zack being the first to fall through the church roof in the slums, in the exact same spot as Cloud would later on. (Though there is no question the Cloud DID crash through the roof in FFVII unless we ignore the fact that he is found under the rubble and that he and Aeris suppose he survived because of it; Did the roof get fixed since Zack crashed through it? Who would fix an abandoned church in the slums? Are we to assume that there are two holes in the roof now?) I haven't played Crisis Core so I'm sure there are more.
This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.
Quote:
Advent Children does most of the undermining:
At the end of FFVII, when the party supposes that Sephiroth has been defeated, Cloud senses that there is remnant of him still present. He then fights an out-of-body battle to destroy all that is left of sephiroth, even in this abstract state of existence. There is no reason why there should still be remnants of Sephiroth floating in the lifestream, waiting for an opportunity to return to life and turn back into Sephiroth via Jenova.
Which brings me to Jenova: By the end of FFVII, all of Jenova's fragments (with the exception of cell extracts) had reunited, and Cloud & co. defeat "Jenova Absolute." By this time, there is no reason for Jenova as a specimen (or what they call its 'head') to still live on. But as revealed FFVII:AC, it turns out they actually didn't get the job done, with Jenova and with Sephiroth. So although it doesn't necessarily have 'retcons' in a proper sense, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children effectively wrecks a lot of what is accomplished and established in the original game.
In short, your retcons... aren't. They are things you personally did not like or made assumptions about that were shown to be false or unfounded.
Quote:
What are the materials from around 1997 which you've used?
Memorial Album, a game script released from that time, which shows Tifa's date and the high highwind scene. In both versions.
Quote:
This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state.
Then why reaffirm them so?
Quote:
They were only a catalyst, and Cloud completely forgets about this original motivation for most of the game. Only the young boy deep within his consciousness remembers it.
Cloud is not actually HIMSELF most of the game, and does not have access to the whole of his memories. And then later he believes himself to be a mere simulacra of the real Cloud, and yet he still wishes for Tifa to get to meet the real Cloud.
Quote:
This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart,
Yes he does. "So it was Tifa..." means he heard hers in return.
Quote:
and nothing physical takes place between the two that night. The high affection version, if i'm not mistaken, has been considered canon only since the 2007 Ultimania.
No, it's been canon since long before then, it just TOOK the Ultimania to convince the diehards.
Quote:
Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.
Cloud
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."
(He nods. Cid rubs the back of his head and turns to the pilot. The scene
fades to black.)
QED, Enigma.
Quote:
The "butt touch," if i get what you're referring to, was more of a touch to the back of his leg above the knee, to help/'make sure' Cloud was able to climb all the way onto the ledge. Even if she was tenderly/erotically touching his ass there (which it doesn't appear that she was) it only shows Tifa's affection for Cloud, not his affection for her.
It shows he's willing to let her touch his upper inner thigh. The name butt touch is simply for ease of speaking.
Quote:
Still does not indicate a romantic relationship.
So what DOES, in your opinion? Being sad that someone died?
So Cecil wanted to shag Tellah? Zack wanted to smurf Angeal? OK had the hots for Aria? Krile was considering incest with Galuf?
Quote:
I answered the way that I did because I was short on time and I did not expect that you folks do not believe there is ANYTHING that REMOTELY suggests that Cloud MIGHT HAVE HAD affection for Aeris. Now I'm not saying that any one instance of the following offers all the proof that CloudxAeris was intended to be canon in the original game. At the most I'm trying to convey that the game either leaves it as ambiguous OR gives Aeris a SLIGHT edge. Here's a few non-optional scenes to consider:
Cait Sith's prediction: Although he was wrong about the two living happily ever after together, the context surrounding the prediction has CloudxAeris overtones: Cloud agrees to pose with Aeris as the prediction is made; "Interrupted by Fireworks," a sentimental tune, starts playing as soon as Cait Sith comes upon his prediction; Tifa, if in the party, becomes fed up and turns away jealously. (Why would she react this way if there was absolutely no reason to believe there was something between Aeris and Cloud at the time?)
Cait Sith has always been noted by the creators as a charlatan. His prediction is blatantly shown null and void a short time later.
Tifa's jealousy does not indicate there is anything between Cloud and Aerith.
Quote:
Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.
SHE contacts him mentally, says something he does not understand, and he goes 'wait, WHAT?'
Then sepiroth shows up. Clephiroth undertones, eh?
Quote:
The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.
Aerith leads Cloud back to Tifa, so he can run and save Tifa succesfully, bringing a positive end to the arc started by his failure to stop her falling and her getting injured.
Totally the opposite of C/A, really.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud Strife
An answer from the Planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her...there.
Here Cloud is obviously expressing a personal desire to meet Aeris and says that she can be found in the Promised Land, which we all know is a very personal place/state of mind. Therefore by saying "
I can meet her... there", he makes it clear that:
1) He's not too concerned with Tifa or the others meeting her, and
2) he's planning on meeting with Aeris in a way which the others cannot. Now Tifa, surprised and/or taken by what Cloud has just said, responds with "Yeah, let's go meet her." She, not Cloud, is the one to apply his statement to herself and the others, since after all, Aeris
is missed by everyone. Although it is a sentimental line, it is not said with the same level of depth as Cloud's line is, and it really doesn't seem to be what Cloud has in mind--Because when you put it all into perspective, Cloud sees meeting Aeris as something which is a significant part of, if not wholly in itself, his personal Promised Land. Also, Tifa's reaction to Cloud's line (both in her line and in her facial expressions) can be interpreted a couple of different ways: Either she
1) is very touched by Cloud expressing the significance of the dear friend she recently lost, or
2) she is becoming aware of who is truly on Cloud's mind, accepts it, and resigns from her pursuit of him, or
3) Both.
Cloud is telling Tifa that there is a chance that they can meet Aerith and other fallen comrades in the afterlife in the case the answer from the planet is no. Further, Cloud expresses realization, it is TIFA who expressed intent. AerTi FTW!
The UO backs that one up, BTW.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD in his article on the Love Triangle Debate
Of much greater significance, however, is Cloud’s line from the ending of the game about meeting Aerith again. Until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.
Though I would have once argued otherwise, looking at things more objectively today, I have to agree that this line left matters in the original game more in favor of Aerith than of Tifa. Due to the existence of the newer Compilation materials, however, that no longer holds true in the wider scheme of things.
As a critic of the Compilation & materials, I agree with SoS, that the ending tips the scale slightly in the direction of Aeris when looking only at the original game. Aside from that, I think the game is pretty ambiguous on the matter. A lot depends on how much weight you place on certain aspects of the game, really.
He is correct that the english version made it sound more ambigous, but the original line does not contain identifying pronouns, so it could easily be taken in the singular or the plural. The UO says the idea is expressed to Tifa, so it only makes sense to be in the plural.
There are some things that you can mistake as pro-C/A, but the entire story of FF7 is built around a giant red herring, so you should look back at these things in light of the new evidence, in light of what we learn about Cloud in his mind, what constitutes the core of Cloud and what the creators thought we should be told about him when we first meet the true him.
Why have them have his last words before falling to his apparent death be to wish Tifa well in finding the real him? Importantly, why deliberately undercut all the C/A interactions by the spectre of Zack and Cait Sith's prediction with her death if they wanted us to truly take a romance out it? It makes no sense to present us something and show it to be hollow if it's supposed to be a true example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
silentenigma
Yes, it certainly is canon, but I'm not going for 2009 canon. I've been discussing a VERY alternate point of view since I do not accept anything after ~2003 (the Compilation) into my own personal continuity. This basically leaves us with the original game only.
Memorial Album.
Latest release was the revision in 1999.
Quote:
Well it's obvious that the prediction itself was BS, considering what happens... but I was talking moar about the atmosphere surrounding the scene.
The atmosphere is a giant red herring. The scene is there to soften you up for a suckerpunch. Plus, the music continues on through Cait's entire death sequence too. It's there to ham up his 'sacrifice'
Quote:
Yes it most certainly does. And like the forest scene, it can be interpreted a couple of ways and alone cannot be definitive support for anything.
Your latter suggestion is definately the more valid interpretation; remember that I said there can be many different (non CxA) interpretations of this scene based on your leanings. However, he already did apologize for beating her earlier in the dream, and she did tell him where she was going. And when she turned to run off, since he was dreaming, he wasn't able to hold her back (shown by him reaching out) or follow her like he wanted (running without going anywhere).
Cloud, after he wakes up, is afraid he might end up killing Aeris or doing something terrible if he follows her. It is for this reason that he does not want to go, even though deep down, as shown by his hazy and abstract dream, he does want to follow her (for whatever reason).
Funny how it takes Tifa's pep talk to convince him. And it's not a dream. It's a communication. And Cloud goes after because he still has questions she did not answer.
Quote:
When Cloud snaps back into his own body, Tifa is frantically reaching out to him and shouting to him because he's in mortal peril and she's trying to awaken him and save him from falling into the lifestream. This situation is a far cry from the dream-like, idealistic moment he was having just seconds earlier, where Cloud and Aeris reached out to each other as if to be reunited. A lot of people also see the transition from Aeris' hand to Tifa's as symbolic of Cloud choosing Tifa over Aeris, and had Cloud not suddenly been thrust into a life-or-death situation, I'd probably agree. However, that's not the case.
I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her, holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending, instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'
