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From VII onwards, I never considered what is and is not a 'dungeon'. It was just 'area where there are mobs'. Being underground doesn't make it any different aside from the fact that it's less likely to rain. 'Dungeon' to me is a fairly old concept that doesn't fit well into the modern RPG.
I just define dungeon as any area where there are enemy encounters. I consider Lindenblum during the festival of the hunt a dungeon. It works just as well as any other term I have heard.
I suppose dungeon 'layout' might not have been the best term I could have used. I wasn't referring to the way areas of the dungeon are placed in relationship to each other, but the physical size you have to make every single area that you traverse. You can't have a tight narrow hallway or staircase, everything has to be a broad wide open plain. This works for some dungeons, but when used exclusively for a whole game it becomes quite bland.Quote:
How? The first substantial dungeon you're introduced to, the Waterways, are filled to the brim with stairs, multiple vertical tiers, and side paths. Other than boss battles or areas that are obviously supposed to be plains, I can't think of too many huge wide open areas...
As far as dungeon design, I do agree there's a degree of blandness because it essentially used repetition of simple geometric shapes to create large labyrinths, but I think Wolf once pointed out that those PS1 dungeons weren't really well designed dungeons, they were just areas to make the pre-rendered backgrounds look cool. FFXII kinda brought back that real dungeon design of having a large labyrinth you have to navigate and figure out ways to open up alternate paths (that aren't made obvious by FFXIII's markers of where the next step to solving the "puzzle" is). I think the addition of that old school element really added another layer of substance to FFXII's gameplay, especially when compared to FFXIII's corridors.
Think of something like the Mako reactors from FF7. Aside from the opening room it would be completely impossible to do al la FF12.
But there are a lot of narrow passage ways and staircases! Even in the prologue, you're running through a fortress, fighting soldiers as you climb stairways and go through its halls. And I'll see your FF7 Mako Reactors and raise you a Draklor Laboratories. You fought a lot of enemies in its narrow and twisting paths. And while something like the Dreadnought (FFII reference) Leviathan may be somewhat open and repetitive, it's still a great and memorable contrast to open plains. In fact, because of the awesome art style, monster design, colorful implementation, and engrossing, dynamic soundtrack, I would say FFXII's open plains are a pretty great place to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
And I thought it was ponderous, with uninteresting characters and a poorly executed battle system, so we will just have to agree to disagree, I suppose. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
That said, I cannot wait for Squenix to get rid of that thrice damned loot system. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST GIVE ME MONEY FOR BEATING THE SNOT OUT OF THE LOCAL WILDLIFE!
Man I freaking loved the loot system. That was one of the best changes. I'm personally just waiting for SE to bridge the loot system with skinning cut scenes like in Red Dead Redemption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga GuessAnd I thought it was ponderous, with uninteresting characters and a poorly executed battle system, so we will just have to agree to disagree, I suppose. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
That said, I cannot wait for Squenix to get rid of that thrice damned loot system. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST GIVE ME MONEY FOR BEATING THE SNOT OUT OF THE LOCAL WILDLIFE!
Well...at least the loot system was intuitive in FFXII (Sell the right items to improve the shop's wares. FFXIII's loot system basically said have crappy equipment, or live in poverty.
FFXIII's weapon upgrade system seemed to be quickly tacked on after the rest of the game was finished. It was haphazard, poorly executed, and absolutely pointless until 30+ hours into the game as you don't see any gil until then. At least XII's was somewhat polished and useful throughout the game.
i liked 13!
you didn't need to bother upgrading anything at all to beat the game. the only real reason would be to finish battles quicker or if you wanted to do the extra stuff.
i also like 12!
i dont think they can be easily compared. i think the closest ff that 13 was to was actually ff7, thematically and structurally and via characterizations. but that's how i felt. it was like a more pg rated, less sci fi gumbo made from a lot of those cyberpunk/fantasy elements. but even then, it's difficult to compare games that are over 15 years apart and are still supposed to be in the same series. both 12 and 13 have innovative battle systems, which in turn affect loot and other mechanics.
ff12 was its own creature but i thought it was brilliant while i was playing it.
in terms of environments, i felt ff13 did a great job in developing a level of scale of the worlds you travelled through. ff12 was a HUGE game, but it was difficult to feel that way when your camera was always glued to the leader of the party. ff13 tried to return at certain points to the static, large environment where your tiny character seemed smaller and less significant to the scale of the thing. this is something i've always liked about ff7; it just zoomed out randomly and you felt like there was this huge world out there compared to you.
it's weird, because i had a huge huge issue with the corridor thing when i played rogue galaxy (which is also good), but i didn't feel that way with ff13. the majority of it is an experience that goes 'look, you need to get here and you're running out of time so get to it.' it's not a game where exploration of branching paths or an open world is a main concept; it's the journey through a particularly defined set of problems. yes, it's linear, but it's supposed to be.
i don't wanna be 'that guy', and say that the entire thing was designed to make you feel fenced into a 'single purpose', as if you had to complete a 'focus' or something pseudo analytical like that, but there you go, i just said it. even if you think that's a stupid way of looking at it, there's no storyline moments where the idea of running or speeding towards a goal really stops until the point where you actually DO end up in an open area. before that you're constantly on the run or running towards something in the story sense.
I vomit at anything Wolf Kanno says, so you're not alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBI think I just vomited. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I did enjoy XIII, to an extent. But mostly because of the little extra things, not because of the crappy storyline. It's a pretty decent rpg for being made in this crappy generation :p
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i...-t8C4nnx-L.jpg
I really enjoyed XIII. The main thing that I didn't care too much for was the character development. I play a game for the story. Gameplay comes second for me and lastly is graphics.
This is gonna hit a sore spot for some people but in all honesty I think more time should have been spent on the development of the characters. Things should have gone more in depth with the characters themselves and the storyline would have just bloomed into something remarkable. Instead the characters seemed to be a tad emotionless, much like the characters in in the Airbender movie.
I don't mean to start a debate but think about it. In my opinion the only character that truly had development was Hope. Granted, hated him because he cried all the time, but he has a problem, deals with it, and works it out.
Which reminds me... XII was freaking amazing!! Yes I always play a game for the storyline firstly. Even though XII's story was a little lackluster for my taste I still prefer it over XIII mainly because it's so open so early on. I think that's where XII really shined for me. I don't have anything against straight forward games like XIII and X, but I think my ADD side kind of takes over when there's so much you can do so early on. hahah
It just seems that here lately the FF games have gotten less based on story and more about graphics and gameplay. Not that I'm complaining because they're beautiful and fun to play.... I would just like to be able to connect more with the characters. :)
When I first played this back in March, I didn't like it, but I decided to give it another shot. Of course, it helps that I discovered my favorite voice actor from the Mass Effect series is doing the voice of Lightning. Regardless, on a new play through of it and I actually wanna finish it because it is fun so far. Still not as enjoyable as FFX to me, and I don't get the comparison.
Also great naming of your characters, Square. Squall, Tidus, Cloud, Lightning...what's next Thunder? Storm (X-Men style)? Please no.
Nah, Tropical Cyclone and Cumulonimbus are surely due to be the next stars.
I don't follow with Squall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny
A squall is a stormQuote:
Originally Posted by RodneyI don't follow with Squall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny