Sephiroth... major spoilers that might change your view on who is the best villain!!!

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09-14-2003, 03:00 AM
Raistlin

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Sure, but if she could survive that kind of punishment, then no amount of swords and fists would pose any kind of risk.

Well what if that's why "swords and fists" posed a risk? The crash into the planet damaged her significantly, so she had to mainly rely on wit, cunning, and deceit. Hence the need for Sephiroth.

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He DID break down; he was directly manipulated many times.

He was being directly manipulated for any significant period of time TWICE, and that only for...a couple minutes? Sephiroth allowed himself to be deceived for the whole damn game.

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

Yes, physical ability, intelligence, agility, etc etc etc. Mental strength, i.e. "hold on sanity/reality" is not dependent on physical characteristics, or many mental ones, such as intelligence. Sephiroth didn't exactly have a "nice" childhood with Hojo. That, combined with the shock of him thinking he was a freak of nature, severed his tenuous hold on sanity. End speculation, fact: Sephiroth went insane. Cloud didn't.

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I don't think she had much of a choice. He was capable of making that transformation; she was going to bond with him and become a part of his 'godliness' once it was all done.

That's an interesting theory, and, as are most theories of that nature, cannot be proven or disproven. However, I do have one interesting theory of my own: that Jenova didn't give a damn about the Lifestream and just wanted to destroy the world, to revenge herself on the Planet and those living on it. She wanted, expected Meteor to destory the Planet utterly.

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Of course. Sephiroth has MORE JENOVA IN HIM, he's a stronger being.

I don't think Sephiroth has "more" Jenova in him. However, I do think the Jenova cells in Sephiroth bonded in a unique way, and those in Cloud didn't. Also, Jenova had a special interest in Sephiroth, to which she didn't have for Cloud at the time.

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I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.

That's useless to speculate since it cannot be proven, and doesn't really have much fact basis.
I think you're doing one thing, a flaw in a lot of people who debate game-issues: you're thinking too much into it. When the game designers made the Jenova bosses and the Hojo transformation battle, I'd bet you all the money in the world that they didn't have anything special in mind, especially to the extent that you've explained. If you try to find some sort of proof in every little thing, you're going to end up on an endless road of useless points and speculation on things that even the game designers weren't thinking about.
To quote 'Kishi: "game mechanics." That's the answer to a lot of the things we're discussing here.
09-14-2003, 04:11 AM
Big D

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Well what if that's why "swords and fists" posed a risk? The crash into the planet damaged her significantly, so she had to mainly rely on wit, cunning, and deceit. Hence the need for Sephiroth.

All true, in my opinion too.

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He was being directly manipulated for any significant period of time TWICE, and that only for...a couple minutes? Sephiroth allowed himself to be deceived for the whole damn game.

Well... it's very hard to say for sure, but Sephiroth seems to have been manipulated in a more subtle way, by the implanting of false ideas and emotions, whereas Cloud's mind and body were completely taken out of his control. A direct manipulation, it seems.

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Yes, physical ability, intelligence, agility, etc etc etc. Mental strength, i.e. "hold on sanity/reality" is not dependent on physical characteristics, or many mental ones, such as intelligence. Sephiroth didn't exactly have a "nice" childhood with Hojo. That, combined with the shock of him thinking he was a freak of nature, severed his tenuous hold on sanity. End speculation, fact: Sephiroth went insane. Cloud didn't.

Heck yeah, he was nuts alright... all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal.

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That's an interesting theory, and, as are most theories of that nature, cannot be proven or disproven. However, I do have one interesting theory of my own: that Jenova didn't give a damn about the Lifestream and just wanted to destroy the world, to revenge herself on the Planet and those living on it. She wanted, expected Meteor to destory the Planet utterly.

Well, I think it's mentioned at some point that Sephiroth intends to become one with Jenova. Not entirely sure, though; however it does make sense - especially in light of Bizarro-Sephiroth's 'composition'. It's entirely plausible that she just wanted to slaughter everyone in a fit of vengeful fury; however, it's fitting with her character that she'd have wanted to dominate every living thing.

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I don't think Sephiroth has "more" Jenova in him. However, I do think the Jenova cells in Sephiroth bonded in a unique way, and those in Cloud didn't. Also, Jenova had a special interest in Sephiroth, to which she didn't have for Cloud at the time.

Yep, again I agree; in fact, what you said is what I actually meant. Just didn't want to give a vague or confusing explanation by mistake.

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I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.

That's useless to speculate since it cannot be proven, and doesn't really have much fact basis.
I think you're doing one thing, a flaw in a lot of people who debate game-issues: you're thinking too much into it. When the game designers made the Jenova bosses and the Hojo transformation battle, I'd bet you all the money in the world that they didn't have anything special in mind, especially to the extent that you've explained. If you try to find some sort of proof in every little thing, you're going to end up on an endless road of useless points and speculation on things that even the game designers weren't thinking about.
To quote 'Kishi: "game mechanics." That's the answer to a lot of the things we're discussing here.

Sure, game mechanics can explain a lot; most of what's been speculated in this thread probaly wasn't contemplated by the writers, and is merely conjecture intended to 'fill the gaps' in a complex story. However, something as big as Hojo's transformation can serve as a strong basis for a proposition such as "Jenova cells can give Humans the ability to transform themselves in certain circumstances".
Part of the 'fun' comes from trying to extrapolate and postulate and come up with something to plug the holes in a potentially leaky plot.
09-14-2003, 07:47 AM
PhoenixAsh

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Jenova BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH have no Human components, yet are vulnerable; however, this is a random tangent and not of strict relevance to that elusive gem known as 'the point'.

Irrelevant I know, but those three parts were only very small elements of Jenova.

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I don't think she had much of a choice. He was capable of making that transformation; she was going to bond with him and become a part of his 'godliness' once it was all done.

She already was bonded to him. If she was pulling the strings it wouldn't matter who got the energy. She would have control over it.

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Of course. Sephiroth has MORE JENOVA IN HIM, he's a stronger being. If Cloud and Sephiroth were equals, Sephiroth would have died, swiftly. You want more proof that the Lifestream can provide power and knowledge? The entire purpose of summoning the meteor was to injure the Planet, unleashing a huge amount of Mako energy that Sephiroth would absorb to complete his transformation. That's stated clearly. Also, when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells, he naturally went crazy and wanted to use the Mako Cannon to deliver a surge of Mako to the North Cave. "My son is depending on the energy... I'm just giving him a helping hand".

Of course through that logic, you could argue that ONLY Jenova could bond with the planet and not Sephiroth. The lifestream would try and take something from humans, it wouldn't from Jenova.

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Isn't that what I was saying all along? Sephiroth's "Jenova component" made him stronger than any Human. After the Nibelheim disaster, Cloud got used for the experiment, in Hojo's attempt to 'recreate' Sephiroth. Cloud, too, became stronger; but not quite so strong as Sephiroth.

What evidence is there anywhere in the game that Cloud isn't quite as strong, if not stronger than Spehiroth?

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Think about THIS for a second... the individual pieces of Jenova that you fight throughout the game - BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH - they're quite strong, but not indestructible. Together, they make up almost the entirety of Jenova's body, save for the cells in the Clones, in Sephiroth and others extracted by Shinra. However, a normal Human who's injected himself with Jenova's cells and has been exposed to Mako radiation can become far stronger than these large parts of her body. I'm talking about Hojo. He OD'd on Jenova cells; I'm assuming he injected more than were used in regular SOLDIRERs or Clones - and also had significant Mako exposure. As a result, he was able to transform himself - something you, PhoenixAsh, claimed is impossible for any except Jenova herself. I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.

Who's to say Jenova wasn't controlling Hojo? He had enough cells, and was quite clearly crazy, so his mind would be weak enough to take over. He was also following Jenova's goal exactly, in fighting Cloud, and providing the Northern Cave with more energy. He also knew exactly what to do.

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Well... it's very hard to say for sure, but Sephiroth seems to have been manipulated in a more subtle way, by the implanting of false ideas and emotions, whereas Cloud's mind and body were completely taken out of his control. A direct manipulation, it seems.

Jenova attempts to control Cloud, but he is able to resist. This is DIRECT evidence from the game that he is mentally stronger than Sephiroth. That all occurred before he regained sanity, at which point Jenova could no longer affect him, which perfectly fits the Jenova theory.

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Heck yeah, he was nuts alright... all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal.

But where is the evidence? As I just said, there's evidence Cloud was stronger. As Raistlin just said, his SOLDIER qualifications are irrelevant. What's left? Him going crazy?
09-14-2003, 09:10 AM
Big D

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What evidence is there anywhere in the game that Cloud isn't quite as strong, if not stronger than Spehiroth?

I'm assuming you're referring to Cloud after he received Jenova cell injections? We know for a fact that Sephiroth was stronger beforehand...
Well, the fact that Sephiroth survived his excursion in the Lifestream is evidence enough; as is the fact that Jenova 'enlisted' his aid and not Cloud's in her little power quest.

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Who's to say Jenova wasn't controlling Hojo? He had enough cells, and was quite clearly crazy, so his mind would be weak enough to take over. He was also following Jenova's goal exactly, in fighting Cloud, and providing the Northern Cave with more energy. He also knew exactly what to do.

Absolutely. However, I think it was more along the lines of 'passive control', like I suggested she exercised over Sephiroth. Hojo gave reasons for his actions, like wanting to help his son.

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Jenova attempts to control Cloud, but he is able to resist. This is DIRECT evidence from the game that he is mentally stronger than Sephiroth. That all occurred before he regained sanity, at which point Jenova could no longer affect him, which perfectly fits the Jenova theory.

Again, there's the difference between active control and passive manipulation. At the Temple of the Ancients and the Water Altar, Sephiroth controls Cloud's actions directly, making him do things completely against his will. The second time, he's able to shrug off the effects - but only because of prompting from his friends and because of the enormity of what he was about to do.

And also, all along, Jenova herself was influencing Cloud - he was being drawn to the Reunion by Sephiroth, just like every other Clone.
Nothing suggests that Sephiroth was ever under that same kind of direct control. When Cloud lost it on those two occasions, he was just a completely unreasoning puppet, merely performing actions without independent thought. Sephiroth, on the otehr hand, gives reasons and explanations for what he's doing. He's still thinking, even if those thoughts are corrupted. He was independent enough, and twisted enough - simply because of the influence that Jenova's cells were having on his mind - that he'd go along with her wishes without having to be dragged around unconsciously.

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Heck yeah, he was nuts alright... all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal.

But where is the evidence? As I just said, there's evidence Cloud was stronger. As Raistlin just said, his SOLDIER qualifications are irrelevant. What's left? Him going crazy?

Evidence? I'm not sure what oyu mean, since I thought I stated it clearly... however, we know that Sephiroth didn't die, even after spending a veritable eternity in the Lifestream. Cloud's mind was nearly obliterated after only a week; any longer would undoubtedly be fatal. Even Tifa felt the effects after only a few hours. Sephiroth posessed the magical ability to use the Black Materia; that takes quite a lot of doing. He was also able to undergo Jenova transformations - I know, you can say that's because of his posession of Jenova cells; and that's true enough; but then, Cloud's enhanced strength only came from bearing Jenova cells as well. Sephiroth did a lot of things that Cloud couldn't; he was even able to psychokinetically levitate Cloud (the "Come on... the Black Materia..." sequence).
All I'm saying is that Sephiroth was one tough dude; of course, if you take away the bonuses afforded by Jenova cells, he's just another Human; perhaps a little less than that, since his father was Hojo after all. However Cloud, too, is "only Human" underneath his enhancements.
09-14-2003, 11:21 AM
PhoenixAsh

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I'm assuming you're referring to Cloud after he received Jenova cell injections? We know for a fact that Sephiroth was stronger beforehand...
Well, the fact that Sephiroth survived his excursion in the Lifestream is evidence enough; as is the fact that Jenova 'enlisted' his aid and not Cloud's in her little power quest.

On the contrary, I believe Jenova using Sephiroth shows exactly the opposite. It shows he was WEAKER. She only begins to control him (passively or otherwise) after he loses his mind. She doesn't control Cloud properly at all (although I believe she actually DOES at one point that I won't go into).
As you're arguement is defending Sephiroth's mind surviving the lifestream it's fairly circular to use it as evidence.

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Absolutely. However, I think it was more along the lines of 'passive control', like I suggested she exercised over Sephiroth. Hojo gave reasons for his actions, like wanting to help his son.

Okay fair enough with Hojo it makes sense for it to be passive, he stays fairly in character and has motives. Sephiroth on the other hand...

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Again, there's the difference between active control and passive manipulation. At the Temple of the Ancients and the Water Altar, Sephiroth controls Cloud's actions directly, making him do things completely against his will. The second time, he's able to shrug off the effects - but only because of prompting from his friends and because of the enormity of what he was about to do.

And also, all along, Jenova herself was influencing Cloud - he was being drawn to the Reunion by Sephiroth, just like every other Clone.
Nothing suggests that Sephiroth was ever under that same kind of direct control. When Cloud lost it on those two occasions, he was just a completely unreasoning puppet, merely performing actions without independent thought. Sephiroth, on the otehr hand, gives reasons and explanations for what he's doing. He's still thinking, even if those thoughts are corrupted. He was independent enough, and twisted enough - simply because of the influence that Jenova's cells were having on his mind - that he'd go along with her wishes without having to be dragged around unconsciously.

The thing is, nothing does suggest it in any particular scene. You have to look at the big picture to see it. Sephiroth's motives, his powers, Jenova's motives, her powers, the timing of events and changes in character.
The only reason Sephiroth is taken to be the main bad guy is because you chase him throughout the game. But the thing is everywhere you go it isn't Sephiroth, it's Jenova. Even when you go to the Northern Cave you see Jenova first, then you only see Sephiroth float around talking before suddenly Jenova is back in the picture.

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Evidence? I'm not sure what oyu mean, since I thought I stated it clearly... however, we know that Sephiroth didn't die, even after spending a veritable eternity in the Lifestream. Cloud's mind was nearly obliterated after only a week; any longer would undoubtedly be fatal. Even Tifa felt the effects after only a few hours. Sephiroth posessed the magical ability to use the Black Materia; that takes quite a lot of doing. He was also able to undergo Jenova transformations - I know, you can say that's because of his posession of Jenova cells; and that's true enough; but then, Cloud's enhanced strength only came from bearing Jenova cells as well. Sephiroth did a lot of things that Cloud couldn't; he was even able to psychokinetically levitate Cloud (the "Come on... the Black Materia..." sequence).

I'm not so sure it would have been fatal. Think about it, nomatter how strong Sephiroth's mind is, his muscles should have decayed, in fact his body should have decomposed. This suggests either that the lifestream or Jenova sustained him.
Given the reason the lifestream twisted Cloud's mind is the knowledge rush, a purely mental thing, and the stream is life itself, I'm inclined to think Cloud would have survived just as Sephiroth did.
09-14-2003, 06:22 PM
Raistlin

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all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal

I don't think he avoided dying because of his own strength; I think Jenova just protected him.

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Well, I think it's mentioned at some point that Sephiroth intends to become one with Jenova.

Sephiroth also calls Cloud and co. "traitors to the Cetra" and says that Cloud didn't exist over 5 years ago. I think a significant portion of what Sephiroth said was either in an attempt to keep Cloud off guard, or either lies told to him by Jenova.

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owever, something as big as Hojo's transformation can serve as a strong basis for a proposition such as "Jenova cells can give Humans the ability to transform themselves in certain circumstances".

My point was just that when the writer's were looking for a boss, they could've thought of Hojo, and, to make him not a sickly old scientist, had him transform and just needed an excuse. However, Sephiroth transformed. Isn't that evidence enough? Though Sephiroth had a unique bond with Jenova unlike Hojo.
However, back to Hojo: if we're going on theories, I think that he ODed on Jenova cells so severely that he had more Jenova in him than human, and thus was reverting to a Jenova-like form. Phoenix also proposed a possible, plausible explanation.

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Well, the fact that Sephiroth survived his excursion in the Lifestream is evidence enough; as is the fact that Jenova 'enlisted' his aid and not Cloud's in her little power quest.

1. See my reply above to how Sephiroth survived the Lifestream
2. Jenova "enlisted" Sephiroth's aid before Cloud was injected with Jenova cells.
3. As you yourself admitted, Sephiroth had a unique bond with the Jenova cells that Cloud didn't. This does not directly prove who was stronger.

I don't know who's stronger...if I had to guess, I'd say Sephiroth, but I personally don't see the relevance.

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Again, there's the difference between active control and passive manipulation.

True. Sephiroth, most likely, wasn't being directly mind-controlled. However, Sephiroth still had a more tenuous control on sanity than did Cloud. Passive manipulation wouldn't work on Cloud. Jenova had tried...with the flashbacks, etc. Jenova had to resort to attempting to directly control Cloud through his Jenova cells, which would only work for moments, if at all.

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Nothing suggests that Sephiroth was ever under that same kind of direct control.

I agree.

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But where is the evidence? As I just said, there's evidence Cloud was stronger. As Raistlin just said, his SOLDIER qualifications are irrelevant. What's left? Him going crazy?

Evidence? I'm not sure what oyu mean, since I thought I stated it clearly... however, we know that Sephiroth didn't die, even after spending a veritable eternity in the Lifestream. Cloud's mind was nearly obliterated after only a week; any longer would undoubtedly be fatal.

As Big D said, Cloud was nearly killed by mako poisoning, Sephiroth wasn't. However, I think Jenova directly interfered, saving Sephiroth, shielding him, if you will. Mako poisoning destroys human minds, and I don't think Sephiroth's mind was abnormal except for his insanity. Jenova may have even taught Sephiroth how to keep the Lifestream from damaging his mind, so he could learn from it. There's many more plausible explanations involving Jenova than that Sephiroth just had the "strength" to survive it.

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This suggests either that the lifestream or Jenova sustained him.

Very well put. And since the Lifestream would have to be "out of its mind" to sustain Sephiroth, this suggests Jenova did it.
09-15-2003, 12:14 AM
Big D

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As Big D said, Cloud was nearly killed by mako poisoning, Sephiroth wasn't. However, I think Jenova directly interfered, saving Sephiroth, shielding him, if you will. Mako poisoning destroys human minds, and I don't think Sephiroth's mind was abnormal except for his insanity. Jenova may have even taught Sephiroth how to keep the Lifestream from damaging his mind, so he could learn from it. There's many more plausible explanations involving Jenova than that Sephiroth just had the "strength" to survive it.

Yeah, the Lifestream sustains life processes; after all, Cloud spent a week in it without dying of thirst or suffocation. The problem with the Lifestream is the fact that it's a near-random accumulation of the life energy of every plant, every animal, every Human, every Cetra who ever lived. A "massive amount of Mako-frenched knowledge", as the Mideel doctor put it. Cloud's brief exposure left him wheelchair-bound and all but brain-dead. The doctor said that it was somewhat miraculous that he survived at all, and even moreso that he recovered. I blame Jenova's cells for this superhuman resilience. Since Jenova is a 'larger part' of Sephiroth, I think that can explain his improved ability to not only survive the Lifestream's barrage of brainwaves, but also to make sense of all the thoughts, impressions and memories floating around there. Hence why Sephiroth learned about the Black Materia, why he learned that Jenova wasn't really an Ancient (as she had him believe, even though he didn't care when he found out about her true identity); whereas Cloud was left insensate, mumbling obscure references to broken mirrors and Xenogears.
09-15-2003, 12:29 AM
Doomgaze

"Broken mirrors" is also a Xenogears reference.

Most of you have mentioned Sephiroth's insanity... Who says he was insane? He didn't seem too out of it to me.
09-15-2003, 01:44 AM
Raistlin

He went from wondering who he truly was to burning down and destroying all of a town, and you don't call that insane?

Oh, and D, yes, I think the Jenova cells in Cloud was the reason for his "resilience" as you put it. However, Sephiroth had NO ill effects from the Lifestream. Cloud managed to survive and endure; Sephiroth didn't even have to bother with effects, and he spent years in the Lifestream. I think that suggests Jenova's direct intervention.
09-15-2003, 09:26 AM
Big D

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Most of you have mentioned Sephiroth's insanity... Who says he was insane? He didn't seem too out of it to me.

I haven't known that many genocidal megalomaniac nihilists who beheaded their mothers because they thought she was a higher form of life... but those that I have met were usually slightly bonkers.
09-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Raistlin

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Originally posted by Big D
I haven't known that many genocidal megalomaniac nihilists who beheaded their mothers because they thought she was a higher form of life... but those that I have met were usually slightly bonkers.

:love:
09-15-2003, 04:38 PM
Nevermore

Concerning Zack

All right, I think I got it about Zack, I couldn't remember that last flashback where Cloud meets..himself, or whatever.
Cloud (I still don't get how he could exist before the events of ''16 years ago'' if he's a clone.) never made it to SOLDIER. He lied to everyone saying he was, and being built like someone from SOLDIER thanks to the failed experiment, there was no choice but to believe him. So basicaly, he joined SOLDIER in order to be noticed by everyone, more especially Tifa. But having never made it, he became a normal generic soldier, and was there on the Nibelheim Mako inspection. (But he didn't want to show himself, so he kept the mask on.) Zack was a friend, and he ripped off what Zack did from square one and made it so it was him. So that's all, he just took someone else's story and made it his own.
Zack got messed up by Sephy after the later went mad, and the only reason why Cloud was able to injure Sephiroth is because he got him from behind.
Let's not forget that before that, he got Tifa out of the way (who was eventually rescued by her martial arts teacher, Zangan.) therefore keeping the um..''promise''.

Then he hucked Sephy in the Mako, although I fail to understand how he got impaled by Sephy and survived.

Is this about right? And how did Sephiroth survive the Mako? What happened to him afterwards?
09-15-2003, 07:43 PM
Raistlin

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I still don't get how he could exist before the events of ''16 years ago'' if he's a clone.

Cloud wasn't a clone in the literal sense. He's a Sephiroth clone because, at a certain time in his life, he was injected with Sephiroth/Jenova cells. Go see the optional flashback in the Shinra Mansion basement in disc 3.

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He lied to everyone saying he was, and being built like someone from SOLDIER thanks to the failed experiment, there was no choice but to believe him.

Not quite...Cloud actually did think he was from SOLDIER.

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So that's all, he just took someone else's story and made it his own.

Well, actually his own mind took in what he'd heard from Zack and put that in his own memories. Cloud's not the brightest bulb around, if you know what I mean.

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and the only reason why Cloud was able to injure Sephiroth is because he got him from behind.

From behind? Huh? Sephiroth impaled Cloud on the Masamune. Straight up. However, Cloud managed to throw Sephiroth off the walk-way into the mako below.

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Then he hucked Sephy in the Mako, although I fail to understand how he got impaled by Sephy and survived.

That's up to debate...the simplest, and most likely answer is "game mechanics." However, that's possible evidence to show that Cloud may have been given Jenova cells prior to the Nibelheim incident.

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Is this about right? And how did Sephiroth survive the Mako? What happened to him afterwards?

Sephiroth survived in the mako because of his Jenova cells. IMO, Jenova herself either shielded Sephiroth from the mako poisoning, or taught him how to deal with it. Anyways, Sephiroth floated around in the mako, gaining knowledge of the Lifestream, for a while, before surfacing in the North Crater, which is where you find him early in disc 2.
09-15-2003, 08:26 PM
PhoenixAsh

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That's up to debate...the simplest, and most likely answer is "game mechanics." However, that's possible evidence to show that Cloud may have been given Jenova cells prior to the Nibelheim incident.

Erm.... Wha???

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Sephiroth survived in the mako because of his Jenova cells. IMO, Jenova herself either shielded Sephiroth from the mako poisoning, or taught him how to deal with it. Anyways, Sephiroth floated around in the mako, gaining knowledge of the Lifestream, for a while, before surfacing in the North Crater, which is where you find him early in disc 2.

I'd question that Sephiroth really did gain any knowledge from the lifestream. Jenova could have because she could understand the Cetra, but Sephiroth? Cloud didn't either.
In fact given Cloud's experience I'd suggest that the lifestream is more like a key to your own knowledge, and not capable of granting new knowledge, at least to humans.
09-15-2003, 10:03 PM
Doomgaze

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He went from wondering who he truly was to burning down and destroying all of a town, and you don't call that insane?

If I step on a few ants, am I insane? There's a difference between "evil" and "insane"...

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I haven't known that many genocidal megalomaniac nihilists who beheaded their mothers because they thought she was a higher form of life... but those that I have met were usually slightly bonkers.

I... um... ok, maybe. I think there was SOME point to that, not that he just he wanted a keepsake. I really don't know.

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From behind? Huh? Sephiroth impaled Cloud on the Masamune. Straight up. However, Cloud managed to throw Sephiroth off the walk-way into the mako below.

Read what he said again before you reply... "and the only reason why Cloud was able to injure Sephiroth is because he got him from behind."

Let's review what happened: Sephiroth slashes Tifa and knocks her aside, then heads into Jenova's chamber. Zack follows, and is easily defeated and knocked out of the room. Cloud follows, taking Zack's Buster Sword. Now, Sephiroth has turned his attention to Jenova, and isn't watching behind him. Cloud runs in and stabs him with the buster sword. Now, Sephiroth leaves, injured, with Jenova's head. Cloud follows, and Sephiroth says "Don't push your luck", and impales Cloud with the Masamune. Cloud lifts him up by the blade and tosses him into the Lifestream. See, Sephiroth is ALSO severely injured at this point - that, combined with Cloud's anger (a limit break?) is why Cloud can chuck him over the edge.

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