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It is the Soldier, not the reporter who has given us freedom of press
It is the Soldier, not the poet who has given us freedom of speech
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag,
and who's coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien
I am fairly certian this thread will die out soon, mainly cause just about everything has been discussed.
Simply put it seems that we just can't aggree what exactly is a hero/extraordinary, we each percieve those words differently. For me those two words carry a lot of wieght and thus I don't give such praise easily. I may admire someone without thinking they are extraordinary or a hero.
The soldiers do do stuff that I would not want or could not do, and for that they deserve respect, which people, imo, should have for oneanother(to varing degrees). But that still does not make them extraordinary, or even a better a person. Just that they have a different meem of what is acceptable to give up. To take injury or to lose some liberties(I won't say life since we aggree no one tends to think "oh I will die") I can do under many circumstances.. and I am far from extraordinary. The only thing is I have certian things that I won't give up/can't give up cause they are such an intricate part. And one of them is free-thought/action. This partially stems from that in feilds I am adjusted to many times I am right, even if someone with more experience says I am not (recently happened too).
If neccesarily I could try and describe what exactly is constituted as extraordinary but for me to do so would require a heck of a lot of writing and explaining of my personal "grading" system.
My argument is not futile. YOUR argument is illogical. (At least, when you post it is. Others have been able to hold up your end of the argument rather nicely, but you keep posting irrelevant nonsense.) First of all, Hero's by default? Don't make me laugh. In your mind they may all be hero's. However, what goes through your mind isn't necessarily right, but it IS most definetly subjective. There is no way for either of us to truly win this argument because neither of us will concede. We have our own logic that the both of us (rather unintelligently I might add) think is infallible.Quote:
nik0tine your arguement is futile.One thing is.Doctors,Fireman,Police officers,and soldiers,and other jobs.All contribute.They are heroes by default when they go out there and do there jobs no questions asked.
Have you seen the forest fires in California.Its like a 200 feet tall wall of fire and fireman jsut rush and run right into it.That takes guts because from weere i was standing the heat blistered my skin.
Also, things become less valuable as they become more and more common. If every soldier, doctor, fireman and police officer is a hero, than being a hero doesn't mean very much. When massive amounts of people are considered a hero, than the value of heroism decreases. Lets say you have a nice red sports car, and NO ONE else in town has a car similar to it. All of a sudden, everybody has a nice red sports car. Is your sports car still novel, or special in any way? No, it's just common. Being a hero is anything but common.
Oh please... This is just simply a way for you to try and counter my arguments without the need for validity behind your own beliefs. My argument stands.Quote:
Have you seen someone killed right in your face.You wouldn't understand if you never experienced it.
Oh really? Im unaware of this situation... Where in the world are out soldiers fighting for my right to say what I please?Quote:
Soldiers are fighting for your right to say what your saying.They're dying for those reason and you have the nerve to lower there meaning in life.I mean they have a right to have opposition of what you are saying and you have a right to say what you are saying.What defines us is what we say and how we say it.
Also, I am not 'lowering thier meaning in life'. I just simply am not deifying millions of people that I do not know, most of which have never done anything. I would, however, like you to attempt to explain your way through this argument you are trying to make. Just how am I 'lowering thier meaning in life'? Good luck, my friend. You're going to need it.
Although I will agree that in the past this has been the case, it is hardly the case today. Can you explain to me how soldiers, when fighting the wars of today, are securing my rights? Oh, and don't even bother using the "They exist, therefore we don't get invaded' argument. Nobody protest the existance of soldiers. They protest the war that the soldiers are participating in at that point in time.Quote:
It is the Soldier, not the reporter who has given us freedom of press
It is the Soldier, not the poet who has given us freedom of speech
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag,
and who's coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien
Taking down madmen with aims on the USA, for a start? If osama, or one of the other islamic nutcases Sodom was helping out, actually gained what they wanted and turned the US into a muslim nation like Iraq or Afghanistan used to be--which, by the way, is one of osama's stated goals--you would see not only rights but the very concept of rights go out the window. Al-Zarqawi, Al-qaeda's "prince" in Iraq, has been very clear that they see democracy as an evil that they must defeat.Quote:
Can you explain to me how soldiers, when fighting the wars of today, are securing my rights?
You'd be surprised...Quote:
Oh, and don't even bother using the "They exist, therefore we don't get invaded' argument. Nobody protest the existance of soldiers.
Not by default, but because of the nature of the job. I find it hard to believe that you don't understand this. The nature of a soldier is that he joins with the understanding that at any moment he could lose his life. He joins anyway. He works to help people that quite frankly hate him. He fights for them anyway. This is why a soldier is special, it isn't like other jobs where "hardship" means that you have to work an hour late because you need to make a deadline. It's isn't like other jobs where you can show up on time and half-ass your way through the day while planning your weekend BBQ. The job of a soldier (or a cop for that matter) is unique because it is a full time thing requiring 100% dedication.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
No it isn't. It's a way to get at the heart of the matter. Being a soldier requires a sacrifice. The nature of being a soldier is that at any moment, a soldier might see someone killed or be killed himself. That's what the job requires. This isn't the typical 9-5 thing.Quote:
Oh please... This is just simply a way for you to try and counter my arguments without the need for validity behind your own beliefs. My argument stands.Quote:
Have you seen someone killed right in your face.You wouldn't understand if you never experienced it.
Actually it does lower it. You seem to be trying to take the work a soldier does and turn it into something no more significant than the graveyard shift at Steak & Shake. Very few people go to work willing to sacrifice their lives for their jobs.Quote:
Oh really? Im unaware of this situation... Where in the world are out soldiers fighting for my right to say what I please?Quote:
Soldiers are fighting for your right to say what your saying.They're dying for those reason and you have the nerve to lower there meaning in life.I mean they have a right to have opposition of what you are saying and you have a right to say what you are saying.What defines us is what we say and how we say it.
Also, I am not 'lowering thier meaning in life'. I just simply am not deifying millions of people that I do not know, most of which have never done anything. I would, however, like you to attempt to explain your way through this argument you are trying to make. Just how am I 'lowering thier meaning in life'? Good luck, my friend. You're going to need it.
I'll have to agree with redneck here. Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other places. You simply must deal with threats before they come here.Quote:
Although I will agree that in the past this has been the case, it is hardly the case today. Can you explain to me how soldiers, when fighting the wars of today, are securing my rights? Oh, and don't even bother using the "They exist, therefore we don't get invaded' argument. Nobody protest the existance of soldiers. They protest the war that the soldiers are participating in at that point in time.Quote:
It is the Soldier, not the reporter who has given us freedom of press
It is the Soldier, not the poet who has given us freedom of speech
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag,
and who's coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien
It's absurd to think that they pose any real threat to our rights. When it comes to rights, the only person we should be worried about is the president.Quote:
Taking down madmen with aims on the USA, for a start? If osama, or one of the other islamic nutcases Sodom was helping out, actually gained what they wanted and turned the US into a muslim nation like Iraq or Afghanistan used to be--which, by the way, is one of osama's stated goals--you would see not only rights but the very concept of rights go out the window. Al-Zarqawi, Al-qaeda's "prince" in Iraq, has been very clear that they see democracy as an evil that they must defeat.
I understand the argument just fine. That doesn't mean I buy into it.Quote:
Not by default, but because of the nature of the job. I find it hard to believe that you don't understand this.
Anybody and everybodys job is a full time thing (at least when they are at work) that requires 100% dedication. That doesn't mean that 100% is what people put out. It's the same with soldiers. Not all soldiers give 100%, just like people in every other job. I know of some military police who would play nintendo while they were on gaurd duty. That certainly doesn't sound like 100% to me...Quote:
The job of a soldier (or a cop for that matter) is unique because it is a full time thing requiring 100% dedication.
All that is true, but it doesn't have anything to do with what was said by whatshisname. He said I couldn't understand if I hadn't seen someone killed in front of my face (And therefore, if I cannot understand, my argument doesn't work). This just simply isn't the case. As I said earlier, my argument stands.Quote:
No it isn't. It's a way to get at the heart of the matter. Being a soldier requires a sacrifice. The nature of being a soldier is that at any moment, a soldier might see someone killed or be killed himself. That's what the job requires. This isn't the typical 9-5 thing.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth, and deciding the meaning behind my words for me.Quote:
Actually it does lower it. You seem to be trying to take the work a soldier does and turn it into something no more significant than the graveyard shift at Steak & Shake. Very few people go to work willing to sacrifice their lives for their jobs.
If only they were threats...Quote:
I'll have to agree with redneck here. Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other places. You simply must deal with threats before they come here.
ok nik what kind of logic am I suppose to be saying? Yeah so what saying a soldier's job shouldn't be considered ordinary so what i said they get shot at a lot get killed.So what they go through months of training and then shippd out to war.So what theres mothers out there crying and praying for their son's and daughter's safe return.So what parents cry and mourn and are literally hurt stiff when they heard there kid dies in battle.Being a soldier is just an ordinary job.I ugess we shouldn't thank them or say they are heroes because they really are.But your saying the job is ordinary and that soldiers has no purpose and it is a slap in the face with spit on your hands because a lot of people who post here are soldiers.And your telling them that "Hey your job is just as ordinary and safe as being a garbage man." I mean it is a slap in the face. and your "logic" I mean you don't need logic for a debate like this.This is freaking common sense! No one is saying anyone has to be a patriot and support the troops.But a little respect is needed for them,and couldn't hurt.War is war and war is horrible.Do you think a soldier is let in on the political purposes.Heck there are a lot of soldiers who hate bush but when they were sent into Iraq.They have to go.They have to shoot they have to kill they have to get killed.They aren't thinking of the politics because there job requires them to stay alive. I mean if you think this is an ordinary job and should get the respect a janitor gets then really something is wrong iwth society.But hey they are fighting and dying for you to say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
BTW firemans are true heroes they get paided next to nothing.A lot of them die each year.Doctor's they do there jobs and they do cure a lot of ill people who could've died if it wasn't for our medical technology and the doctors knowledge of illnesses.
Same with police officers.These guys do a lot I mean a lot.Yeah some are bastards but hey there job isn't ordinary.
BTW ALFGANISTAN was were Osama and the taliban was at.You know the people who did the whole 9/11 thing.YEAh nik think think think.You can oppose war but to say these soldiers suck and all of that really isn't logical.
Oh really? Sorry, I must have been abusing drugs when I said this, because I don't remember. When did I say that a soldiers job is ordinary, or that they have no purpose? I would like a direct quote please.Quote:
ok nik what kind of logic am I suppose to be saying? Yeah so what saying a soldier's job shouldn't be considered ordinary so what i said they get shot at a lot get killed.So what they go through months of training and then shippd out to war.So what theres mothers out there crying and praying for their son's and daughter's safe return.So what parents cry and mourn and are literally hurt stiff when they heard there kid dies in battle.Being a soldier is just an ordinary job.I ugess we shouldn't thank them or say they are heroes because they really are.But your saying the job is ordinary and that soldiers has no purpose and it is a slap in the face with spit on your hands because a lot of people who post here are soldiers.
And I said this... when?Quote:
And your telling them that "Hey your job is just as ordinary and safe as being a garbage man."
We don't need logic for this debate huh? Well then, I guess I can just prove my point by saying that I am right and everyone else is wrong, because that's the way it is!Quote:
and your "logic" I mean you don't need logic for a debate like this.This is freaking common sense! No one is saying anyone has to be a patriot and support the troops.But a little respect is needed for them,and couldn't hurt.War is war and war is horrible.Do
And as for respect... I respect the average soldier for being a part of the human race. I can't really extend my respect much farther than that for someone I don't know and hasn't really done anything earth shattering.
Ive said this before, but I disagree. The soldiers currently fighting around the globe are not fighting for my personal interests.Quote:
But hey they are fighting and dying for you to say that.
To believe that is well... It's just plain stupid.
EDIT: Not necessary. What possible end does saying that serve? Keep those kinds of comments to yourself. -Murder
Okay... so you're saying "If your job requires you to do good, you become a hero"? Again, I disagree. The average person, no matter what his occupation, cannot be a hero in my books. You have to be great. The average person usually cannot become more than average. (If it is even possible at all) For me, it takes more than a job to be a hero.Quote:
BTW firemans are true heroes they get paided next to nothing.A lot of them die each year.Doctor's they do there jobs and they do cure a lot of ill people who could've died if it wasn't for our medical technology and the doctors knowledge of illnesses.
Same with police officers.These guys do a lot I mean a lot.Yeah some are bastards but hey there job isn't ordinary.
Right. However, they posed no threat to democracy and freedom. They simply don't have the power to overthrow a first world nation, let alone the united states of america. Also, Iraq is exempt from the argument you made. In regards to Osama, well, my feelings on that will open up a whole new can of worms. (In fact, maybe it deserves a thread of it's own.)Quote:
BTW ALFGANISTAN was were Osama and the taliban was at.You know the people who did the whole 9/11 thing.YEAh nik think think think.You can oppose war but to say these soldiers suck and all of that really isn't logical.
One last thing, I did not say that soldiers "sucked". I said they weren't "Hero's by default". How you derive "suck" out of that is beyond me. Im pretty sure my words were clear, but I'll say it again. I mean no disrespect to soldiers. Sorry if you find it offensive that I don't deify them.
Sorry, but saying "that's just how human nature is" is another way of saying "I'd rather not think about it and come up with a real answer because the fact is it'd make me a hypocrite". I find it quite offensive when people say stuff like that, because by saying something like that is human nature, people are saying I'm the same way (being the fact that I'm a human), and I'm not (proving that it isn't human nature).Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
And still, you're basically saying exactly my point - when you're killing, you're some honorable soldier person, but when someone's killing people you know and care about, they're a horrible cold dirty murderer terrorist.
Well, Al-qaida did attack us. This cannot be rationally denied. And as such terrorists and any state giving them support are a threat. very simple really. Afghanistan was too cowardly to send an army after us, so the fund al-qaida, give them land and weapons, and turn them loose on us. It's exactly the same as them attacking us with a remote control device. Just because they don't jump up and down and say "we're behind it and we destroyed the towers" does not mean that the Taliban is innocent. If that's the case, we should have never arrested John Gotti.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
Ok so the nature of the job is once again that you do the job knowing full well that the next step you take could very easily end with a loud bang, you in a body bag, and some army guy showing up at your home to tell your wife and kids that you've just been blown up. Yeah that's bloody ordinary. That daily life for a soldier in a war zone.Quote:
I understand the argument just fine. That doesn't mean I buy into it.Quote:
Not by default, but because of the nature of the job. I find it hard to believe that you don't understand this.
Anybody and everybodys job is a full time thing (at least when they are at work) that requires 100% dedication. That doesn't mean that 100% is what people put out. It's the same with soldiers. Not all soldiers give 100%, just like people in every other job. I know of some military police who would play nintendo while they were on gaurd duty. That certainly doesn't sound like 100% to me...Quote:
The job of a soldier (or a cop for that matter) is unique because it is a full time thing requiring 100% dedication.
That isn't true for any job except cop or firefighter. No Accountant goes off to work wonding if this will be their last spreadsheet. No janitor expects to be gunned down whilst cleaning the lipstick off the bathroom mirrors. And no waiter/waitress expects to be shot at either. Being a soldier takes a special individual.
As for your nintendo playing guards, they were probably guarding the front lines in Alabama or something. I'm talking about a war zone.
Well, I don't think you can understand. You've never been in that kind of danger. I haven't either. The closest I've ever been is that a friend of mine lost her husband in Iraq to a car bomb.Quote:
All that is true, but it doesn't have anything to do with what was said by whatshisname. He said I couldn't understand if I hadn't seen someone killed in front of my face (And therefore, if I cannot understand, my argument doesn't work). This just simply isn't the case. As I said earlier, my argument stands.Quote:
No it isn't. It's a way to get at the heart of the matter. Being a soldier requires a sacrifice. The nature of being a soldier is that at any moment, a soldier might see someone killed or be killed himself. That's what the job requires. This isn't the typical 9-5 thing.
Right. Because you spend all your time argueing that a soldier's job is exactly the same thing as any other job. It means nothing to you, or at least nothing more than any other job a person might take.Quote:
Thanks for putting words in my mouth, and deciding the meaning behind my words for me.Quote:
Actually it does lower it. You seem to be trying to take the work a soldier does and turn it into something no more significant than the graveyard shift at Steak & Shake. Very few people go to work willing to sacrifice their lives for their jobs.
That's your own words.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikotene
If only they were threats...[/QUOTE]Quote:
I'll have to agree with redneck here. Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other places. You simply must deal with threats before they come here.
Well, they are real threats. Especially in Afghanistan. Al-qaida wants you dead. You have to deal with that and right now it seems as if the millitary is the only way to do it.
Did I say it was ordinary? Nope.Quote:
Ok so the nature of the job is once again that you do the job knowing full well that the next step you take could very easily end with a loud bang, you in a body bag, and some army guy showing up at your home to tell your wife and kids that you've just been blown up. Yeah that's bloody ordinary.
While all this is true, that still doesn't make them a hero. (And that is what this argument is about)Quote:
That isn't true for any job except cop or firefighter. No Accountant goes off to work wonding if this will be their last spreadsheet. No janitor expects to be gunned down whilst cleaning the lipstick off the bathroom mirrors. And no waiter/waitress expects to be shot at either. Being a soldier takes a special individual.
It was not a warzone. I hope nobody would be stupid enough to play Nintendo in a warzone. This took place in Peurto Rico. In Vieques (sp?) I believe...Quote:
As for your nintendo playing guards, they were probably guarding the front lines in Alabama or something. I'm talking about a war zone.
I will admit that I do not understand what it is like to have a friend killed in front of me. However, just because you have a friend killed in the line of duty doesn't make you a hero. This debate is not about whether or not being a soldier is an average job, it's about whether or not soldiers are hero's. I seriously don't understand why I have to keep emphasizing this point.Quote:
Well, I don't think you can understand. You've never been in that kind of danger. I haven't either. The closest I've ever been is that a friend of mine lost her husband in Iraq to a car bomb.
What the hell!? I never said that! What page is it on, and what post number? If I said that, something is wrong, because I seriously have NO recollection of that at all. (Plus, my spelling is not that bad) I think you just wrote that yourself and put quote tags around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Me...Apparently
EDIT: I would just like to point out that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CLOUD SMURFING 9!!!!
Cloud smurfing 9?! now that ain't exactly nice :P. lol, anyways I will try and explain how I take this.. perhaps this way will be easier for all to understand my point.
In this world there are spectrums, ranges if you will, of which I have used two of in this debate. The first is the spectrum of respect particular jobs "deserve". The other is what falls under the category of the "ordinary" person.
The first spectrum is fairly irrelevent. How it works is that at one end are the jobs that get less respect then others, and at the other are the higher respect deserving jobs. At the high end are jobs such as Animal rescue, Soldiering, Policeman, fireman, etc... So yes a soldier deserves respect but that does not constitute them as being extraordinary.
*Disclaimer for the above- all jobs and people deserve some respect. It is the kind that differs. High and Low I use as overall averages. In fact my spectrum works much like the color spectrum. As one kind of respect goes up, the other goes down and vice versa.
To be extraordinary one must not fall into the spectrum of ordinary, quite obvious I think. My spectrum is wide, very wide. At one end we have ordinary men that aren't really all that great(poor(not as in money but personality)) and the other end we have the amazing ordinary man, which is as close to extraordinary most will get.
The Spectrum of the Ordinary Man
Poor_________Average Joe_______Good______Excellent_____Amazing
|-----------------|---------------|-------------|-------------|
Not now, they don't. You can thank Bush when you get around to it. On the other hand, a well-organized and supplied al-quaeda--with the same goals, as stated by their leaders--was able to cause some serious damage to our rights; starting with the right to life for about 3,000 people.Quote:
It's absurd to think that they pose any real threat to our rights. When it comes to rights, the only person we should be worried about is the president.
Dig up one of Osama's statements sometime and see what he's been reading on-air to us. He's made it very clear that he's going to continue murdering Americans until, among other things, we quit supporting Israel and let them kill Jews, run out (or kill) anybody islam deems "immoral", and institue Shar'iah law (with such charming notations as "Mohammed married a nine-year-old, so obviously a girl that age is old enough to consent" and "stone women for being rape").
Considering the islamofascists' approach to religion, the environment (remember the 700 burning oil-wells and the pipeline pumping crude into the Gulf in Desert Storm? Or the draining of the southern marshes?), women's rights, homosexual advocacy, voting, and just about every other facet of life; if liberals were truly serious about the goals they espouse they would hate these guys more than conservatives could if they tried (hell, at least they aren't calling us the "Taliban right wing" any more).
Wow...you obvously have no clue what liberal means.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Redneck
I think it's become rather clear that I know more about it than yourself--but just because sometimes I'm masochistic like that, i'll bite: could you clarify that somewhat?Quote:
Wow...you obvously have no clue what liberal means.