As ToD noted earlier, I have no desire to continue with this thread. Obviously, regardless of what anyone in this thread says to you, you're not going to change your opinion regarding AC. I can't fault anyone for that, as liking or disliking the movie is a function of opinion, and nothing else. My problems, however, arise from the fact that almost all of your criticisms are either spurious, or are the result of a profound misunderstanding of FFVII concepts. As such, I will reply to this thread one final time, in an effort to elucidate relevant aspects of the plots of AC and the original game.
I'm not going to bother quoting your extended overviews on various kung fu flicks you've seen and enjoyed over the years. I will state, however, that your criticisms neglect the realities of the movie. Note, for example, your initial reference to two heroes together overcoming a more powerful villain. The same convention exists in AC; however, it is reversed. Rather than the protagonist overcoming a villain by playing off of the abilities of an ally, enemies work together. Note that in the fight at the Forgotten City, Loz and Yazoo compliment each other very well, frequently playing off of the battle characteristics and abilities of the other. One notable example would be Yazoo taking Loz's gunblade, allowing him to fire both at once while freeing Loz to use his martial arts and speed flashes. Another example would be when Loz generates the localized earthquake; Yazoo leaps backwards over it while still firing at Cloud. Cloud is thus forced to continue to block the bullets, before countering the earth attack with Blade Beam.
However, this doesn't matter much to me. While your other examples can be similarly deconstructed, I personally see no merit in adherence to tired, hackneyed battle conventions. That you enjoy these stereotypes is your prerogative, of course, but such criticisms (if they even applied) are a function of personal interpretation, and not the quality of the movie.
From here, I'll simmply touch on a few of the more glaring misunderstandings regarding the plot, both as regards the original game, and as regards Advent Children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Oh, and he didnt defeat loz and the other seph clone (who's name I can never remember, which is why I call them/him the seph clones/twins as inaccurate as I know it to be) Rude and Reno did by planting the explosives.
You obviously don't understand the idea of context. Cloud needed to catch up with Kadaj; Loz and Yazoo needed to prevent Cloud from doing so. In the context of the bike battle, Loz and Yazoo were defeated; they were neutralized, their weapons and a bike destroyed, and were unable to stop or even noticeably delay Cloud.
Moreover, while the explosives used by Reno and Rude certainly incapacitated Loz and Yazoo, perhaps even mortally wounding them, the fact remains that the two SHM appeared again at the end, after Cloud had defeated Sephiroth. Only at this point did they finally die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Invariably fatal, possibly. But unless you read the novella's (which I havnt) you'd never guess that. As I stated before, it would have been so much more effective if we actually saw SOME severe suffering. Cough up some blood, loose an arm, writhe in agony and infinite torment dammit. show me this is something more freakier then the male version of PMS.
Given that Cloud exhibits little or no pain after having a sword run through his shoulder, or being shot in the back, yet exhibits clear pain whenever Geostigma asserts itself, is obviusly indicative that the malady was somewhat serious. Further, the movie implicitly attests to the deadliness of Geostigma; Marlene asks that Denzel "not be taken away," while Cloud's ruminations on life at Zack's grave also suggest the danger presented by the condition.
Also note that the Negative Lifestream, an important concept for the movie, is composed from the corrupted Spirit Energy of those who died from Geostigma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
You cannot deny it would have been ALOT more effective in creating drama if this had been done ON SCREEN. Nix the zombie ninja kamikaze commando 8 year olds bit, and you have plenty of time to accomplish this. By the way, why doesnt anyone take me up on a verbal debate regarding THAT little subplot? Any Takers?
Apparently, you still haven't read my initial post, where I fully explained the matter of the children. For your convenience, I'll include the relevant excerpts here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune∙1600
First off, Kadaj's master plan had nothing to do with any sort of suicide cult whatever the hell you were trying to say. Kidnapping the children brought together several key points. In addition to reestablishing the underlying themes of the movie, it allowed the SHM to lure Cloud to the Forgotten City. Moreover, as the children were afflicted with Geostigma, they were, really, kin to the SHM. Since Geostigma involves JENOVA, this also ties into the concept of again bringing about the Reunion. Still further, the children, ostensibly, could have been used to help locate the "head of JENOVA" once they had been infused by Kadaj's will.
also...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune∙1600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?
Um, in addition to the numerous reasons presented above, they also effectively kept the populace from interrupting Loz and Yazoo as they attempted to tear down the memorial (where they thought the head of JENOVA was being kept).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Already stated to the guy with aeries pic in his sig that I havnt read them wasnt even aware of them until I did a google search earlier. I will get around to it, but my point stands. The fact that square DIDNT think these details needed to be included in the film, only proves where their priorities were in making AC. The story of the film would have been alot stronger. Im a huge fan of star wars, have read all the novels and most of the comics, yet when I watch the films I grade them on how good the films are, not how good they are as companions to the novels or comics. Same princible applies here, I cant comment on how good the novella's are until I read them, but the fact that AC is is incomplete without having read them just reinforces how poorly written a film it is. Im a mega fan of star wars, can tell you all about the fetts, mandalorian armor, the force and the jedi, yet I still hold episodes 1 and 2 in low regard despite how much more entertaining they are if I apply the background info from the books Ive read. AC is marketed as the sequal to FFVII, and a standalone film, and thats how I judge it and look at it. My appreciation for the story may go up after reading the novels, but my appreciation for the cinematic endeavor will remain the same.
You fail to fully understand the nature of Advent Children; in addition to being a movie sequel to FFVII, it is also a part of the Compilation of FFVII (composed of Advent Children, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core). While On the Way to a Smile is not explicitly a part of the Compilation, it does fall under SE's stated strategy of exploring "polymorphic content." This generally refers to the variety of different ways SE plans to explore FFVII within the Compilation (DVD/UMD, cell phone, PS2, PSP), and a book element would certainly be in line with such thinking.
Moreover, it seems to be presumptuous to assume anything regarding SE's plans on Advent Children, as the movie has not yet seen official release outside of Japan. Realize, though, that On the Way to a Smile has been a staple of the official Japanese AC site for quite some time, that the novella was written by Kazushige Nojima (who was responsible for the story of AC), and that the limitations of film (primarily regarding time and money) limit what can be included. If anything, it would seem that SE intended for its Japanese audience to read the novella.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
I assume the three were developed in a seperate novella? Already discussed the weakness in doing that.
No. The first appearance of the SHM was in Advent Children itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
OMFG, they refferrenced christianity, thats SOOO cool.
Im a christian, and while I dont know my bible backwards and forewards, I know it well enough to refute any ignorant critiques against my beliefs (and to those who dont know when to keep a inappropriate discussion out of a thread, if you have any questions or critiques about my beliefs, send em via pm. Had a few sad experiences on past message boards).
I'm also a Christian (Roman Catholic, specifically), and I understand my faith reasonably well. I'll be glad to expound on the religious themes present in Advent Children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
As for the seph trio being influenced by the holy trinity, the significance of it is that the Father (god, the creator) the son (jesus, god in the flesh and the son of god) and the holy spirit (the spiritual pressence and guide of the son that is bestowed upon all believers at the time of baptism) are different, yet the same. They are all one at the same time they are seperate entities. It would take months to only partially explain so dont bother asking. But I fail to see how the seph trio are in any way reminiscent of this. Kadaj would if anything be the closest to sephs son, but what would that make the other two in this comparison? Where are you getting this biblical comparison from?
An appreciation for the religious symbolism of the SHM requires an understanding of a complex chain of further religious symbolism, both that present in AC, and that involved with the original game. To begin, one must first understand that the SHM are aspects of Sephiroth; the SHM are Sephiroth, derived from his will and unknowingly subject to has machinations. Further, one must understand that the wills of JENOVA and Sephiroth are essentially indistinguishable; even physically, they are not entirely separate. Next, realize that JENOVA (an entity whose name is a corruption of the Latin for "new God") literally attempts to serve that role, usurping the "God" of Gaia, the Lifestream (which embodies all life). Finally, recall that Sephiroth is essentially one with JENOVA, and also that he himself seeks to become a deity by means of an apotheosis induced by the gathering of the Lifestream. With these facts in place, Sephiroth can be understood metaphorically as an "evil god."
With the background in place, the parallels between the concept of the SHM and the Holy Trinity are striking. The following quoted points are taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, unless otherwise noted (there is one use of game script for reasons of comparison).
Quote:
Originally Posted by (stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church)
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
There are, symbolically two "baptisms" in Advent Children; the first is relevant to the SHM. At the Forgotten City, the children receive a "dark baptism" of sorts (keep in mind that the SHM are an "evil trinity"); there, they are "submerged" in the Black Water when they drink it. As a result, they are infused by the will of Kadaj; they are given the "power" to live under the promptings (read: direct manipulation) of Kadaj (and therefore, ultimately, Sephiroth), allowing them to act as completely empty vessels, devoid of self-awareness.
Quote:
234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith". The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".
The mystery of the SHM is the central mystery of Advent Children; they are Remnants of Sephiroth. In uniting with the cells of JENOVA, Sephiroth is again revealed (the metaphor here is of course not exact, but the actual Holy Trinity is itself a mystery that cannot be fully understood).
Quote:
261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Sephiroth is "revealed" in the aspects of Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.
Quote:
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.
In the mythology of FFVII, the idea closest to "Heaven" is the Lifestream (in Aeris and Zack, we see the promise of life after death). However (recalling that, for the purpose of the metaphor, Sephiroth is an "evil god"), life within the trinity of the SHM (which is to say, Sephiroth) is, ironically "hellish" (the Negative Lifestream). Given that the Lifestream can be equated with the Cetra idea of the Promise Land (more religious symbolism, but not to be explored here), which is described in the original FFVII as "supreme happiness..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFVII script
Aeris: ...I don't know. All I know is... The Cetra were born from the Planet,
speak with the Planet, and unlock the Planet. And......then... The Cetra will
return to the Promised Land. A land that promises supreme happiness.
...the Negative Lifestream (controlled by Seph), the corrupted opposite of the Lifestream, can be understood to be theexact opposite of "supreme, definitive happiness."
Quote:
Originally Posted by (again, from the Catechism)
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."
The SHM are one--they are Sephiroth. Sephiroth is one, symbolically divided into three individuals which share "Sephiroth" among themselves. Each of them is a Remnant of Sephiroth--any of the three could have merged with the JENOVA cells to again manifest Sephiroth on Gaia. Each one of the SHM really embodies the reality of Sephiroth.
Realizing that the metaphor cannot be completely exact, and that the SHM comprise an evil trinity (whereas God is perfect, and wholly good), the symbolism is remarkably deep and detailed. Moreover, because of the nature of the Holy Trinity, it becomes easier to understand the SHM as they exist in the movie.
As to your points regarding villains, you seem to equate quality villains with sheer, mindless evil. Sephiroth has demostrably more depth than Kefka or Gestahl, as can be seen by simply referring to the above religious allusions (and that takes no account of his backstory, plot relevance, and coninued religious symbolism). Sephiroth, in spite of what mnay think, is comparable to the characters of Xenogears. Also of note is that Kefka and Gestahl are hardly emblematic of the "greatest evil" in the FF series. I would recommend playing Final Fantasy Tactics; there is no one in the series, I believe, who can match the evil of Dycedarg, and Barinten's treatment of Rafa goes far beyond what Gestahl did with Madonna and Terra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries?
I don't mean to be critical, but this is why your diatribes have received such heated responses. You bash FFVII concepts without having any idea what was actually going on.
The Cetra/Ancients were essentially a race of people closely attuned to the Planet. They predated normal human beings; certain Cetra that broke off from their relatively harsh lifestyle were actually the precursors to humanity.
Quote:
Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Who is it!? Hmph... traitor.
Cloud: Traitor?
Sephiroth: You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you. This was a itinerant race. They
would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on... At the end of their harsh,
hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness. But,
those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier
life. They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving back
one whit in return! Those are your ancestors.
Cloud: Sephiroth...
Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped... They
survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After
that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is
in these reports.
JENOVA is, basically, an extraterrestrial entity with goals and properties similar to that of a virus. When JENOVA landed on Gaia, it approached the Cetra, infecting them with a virus and turning them into monsters.
From the Icicle Inn films...
Quote:
Ifalna: I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the
land they loved...That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers...and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past.
Gast: Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't any idea.
Ifalna: That's when the one who injured the Planet...or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them,
and finally......gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus
and went mad...transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans......infecting them with...the
virus...
Ifalna and Gast, the two individuals speaking in the quote above, were the parents of Aeris. Ifalna was an Ancient/Cetra. Sephiroth was the child of Hojo and Lucrecia, and was injected with JENOVA cells while still in the womb. He was not an Ancient; neither, obviously, was JENOVA.
This, again, is why responses have been so vociferous. This is roughly equivalent to complaining about The Empire Strikes Back because "Luke started listening to that little green alien, rather than finding Yoda." As exaggerated as that seems, confusing the Cetra and JENOVA is arguably a more profound (though easier to make) error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Second, my point is that Seph was a humane person once. He valued life and genuinely cared. Its not so much that I didnt remember who cloud really was during that flashback, as seph seemed to consider EVERYONE a comrade. That and cloud was the only one next to seph when they fought that dragon, yet seph used a pheonix down to revive him and showed concern. Thus showing that cloud may have indeed been on more familiar terms rather then him being all diassociative during the entire flashback.
So having one of the SHM (what does that mean anyway?) having a lingering element of seph's former humanity would have been refreshing, and having that played upon would have triggered some much needed development of the character. I would have preferred it if seph had flown off into the sunset to deal with his now devided psyche rather then forget to duck and vow not to remain a memory. the former would be actual development of the character. The latter was just lame and contrived. I admit, I lack the level of familiarity with this particular mytholgy that you have, but that does not escuse in the slightest poor and contrived story telling on AC's part.
You don't seem to understand. Your version of events is impossible, as it contradicts who and what Sephiroth is. Sephiroth was never so much humane as he was formal and correct in a military manner (befitting someone of his position); moreover, Sephiroth didn't consider everyone a comrade. It would be much more accurate to say he considered no one a comrade. Rather, he treated everyone as would be considered proper given his station in SOLDIER.
Also, Sephiroth never had any connection to Cloud prior to their confrontation in the reactor on Mt. Nibel. The "Cloud" of the Kalm flashback was actually Zack; Cloud was a regular soldier, and Sephiroth would not have even known his name. The battles during the flashback, therefore, really involved Sephiroth and Zack,not Sephiroth and Cloud.
Moreover, Sephiroth does not revive Zack with a Phoenix Down out of care. Sephiroth will never use a Phoenix Down, as it's not part of the game script. In fact, Sephiroth will do nothing in battle to heal Zack, even though he himself is invincible. In the fight against the Dragon, Sephiroth will slash it with the Masamune until it dies; in any subsequent fights, Sephiroth will destroy the enemies with powerful offensive magic. If Zack is is injured, you can resort to the Magic menu and use Sephiroth's Cure and Life magic; however, this is obviously your action, not his.
The "forgot to duck" comment is off base; refer to my initial post on the first page.
In spite of your claims to find Sephiroth a mediocre villain, you adhere to many of the same ideas as his more shrill fanbase; they feel a need to romanticize him, to justify his actions and make him a "good character." The problem with this is it contradicts Sephiroth's fundamental identity. Prior to birth, Sephiroth was injected with JENOVA cells. These merged with him on a fundamental biological level; in essence, Sephiroth became an "evolution" of JENOVA. In other words,while pursuing his own goals, he also pursued the goals of JENOVA. As JENOVA is inherently opposed to the Lifestream, Sephiroth is an enemy of anyone on Gaia. While this quality might have been considered dormant prior to the Nibelheim disaster, the fact remains that Sephiroth is defined by his "being" JENOVA, and therefore cannot be good. His aims can change, becoming more sophisticated (and even, on a certain level, kind of well-intentioned; refer to his plan at the end of AC), but they remain fundamentally wrong, and more importantly, coincide with the immutable aims of JENOVA (who would have moved on to (an)other planet(s)).
Your ideas, then, regardless of what you may think, don't work. What you describe as "development" is an impossibility. The closest possible thing to redemption for Sephiroth was redemption for Kadaj, which did occur, and was the most that could be done given Sephiroth's true identity.
SHM is an abbreviation for "silver-haired men;" basically, it's an easy way to refer to Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
also, skip the specifics and just try explaining how having the kids drink up and become all cult like (espescially when denzelle or whatever his name is is seeing his friend held hostage) makes a lick of sense.
I did so on the first page. You probably should have read that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami
Well, what you said about kefka and geshtahl being evil without any background as too why is correct. though, sephiroth is somewhat overrated. Terra from FFVI has a very similar history to Sephiroth, she is half human, and half esper. Human's and Espers never got along, there was a war that enarly destroyed the planet, and the empire, the last time they crossed over to the esper dimension killed and took many esper corpses. One of the casualties was Terra's human mother, who was killed by geshtahl so that he could raise and turn terra into a living weapon with no emotional ties or understanding of what it was to be human. See the similarity, the difference is that sephiroth knew kindness, respect, admiration and friendship. Terra knew none of these things, she was raised since childhood to kill. When she began to question why, she was fitted with a mind control device that subdued any free will she had.
I guess this is why I consider Seph so shallow and overrated. Terra should have been just as angry as he was, even more so when she saw the remains of her father, and was told what happened and how she came to be in her situation. She held onto her humanity in situations that were even more dire then sephs lifestory.
Again, your opinions are based solely on misconceptions. Sephiroth and Terra are not at all alike.
Terra was the daughter of Maduin, an Esper, and Madonna, a human. You had that much right. However, there was no overriding factor that determined that Terra should be evil. Maduin and Madonna, as is obvious in the recollection of the Esper World, were decent beings.
Quote:
Maduin: Did I awaken you?
Girl: You're... an Esper? What's that pendant for?
Maduin: It's... yours now! It helps protect the Esper World.
Girl: Esper World... Boy, did I take the low road or what?
Maduin: The Esper folk are pretty upset, you being a human and all...
Girl: You're the one who saved me?
Maduin: I am Maduin. I tired of living in the human world... That world is filled with desire, greed and loathing. It's highly infectious...
Maduin: Are humans and Espers truly... so different?
Madonna: So... I'm an example of the evil in this world, huh?
Maduin: No, I mean...
Madonna: I'll return to my world tomorrow!
Maduin: You'll need a guide.
Youth: What's wrong, Maduin?
Maduin: If you don't want to return to your world, you may stay here.
Madonna: But humans and Espers can never co-exist...!
Maduin: How do we know for sure unless we try for ourselves?
How do we know...
unless we...
observe for ourselves...?
Apparently, in the case of Terra, we see something of an argument for nature over nurture, as she retains basic decency in spite of her upbringing. There is no explanation given; really, Terra's time under the supervision of the Empire is unexplored. We only know that she is taken by the Empire slightly two years after being born. While Terra is one of my favorite characters in the series, her backstory is not nearly so deep as you would imply. Rather, it's the events of the game, her search for an understanding of love, that makes Terra so endearing.
Also of note is that Terra's truly formative experiences come during her time with the party, all of whom do their best to help her, guide her, and befriend her. In fact, Terra's time with the Empire is almost irrelevant, as it is revealed that she suffers from amnesia after her encounter with Tritoch and the removal of the Slave Crown, and as memory returned, it was tempered by the reality of the goodness of the party.
Sephiroth, as I've explained previously, is effectively an evolution of JENOVA. Any "kindness" that Sephiroth knew was irrelevant; his aims are of necessity evil. Moreover, Sephiroth was never really treated with "kindness," so far as we know. He was a military experiment. Certainly he gained prestige and admiration for his power and valor in battle, but he was never anything other than a tool of Shinra. He never knew his parents, had no hometown, and grew up feeling different from everyone else. That might have been overcome, as it was in the case of Terra, but Sephiroth is inherently unimpressionable. He is, ultimately, defined by that fateful introduction of JENOVA while in the womb. In effect, Sephiroth became the living, sentient embodiment of JENOVA, and thus is as tragic a character as has ever been in the series.
Also, just because one character chooses good and another chooses evil does not make one shallow. These are choices; if reasons are provided for the choice (and Seph had reason enough), the nature of the choice itself is irrelevant.
Really, these plot clarifications are more for the edification of anyone that might read them, since you've consistently ignored my explanations thus far. I simply hope you understand that while Advent Children, like any movie, can easily be brought under the lens of legitimate criticism, your complaints stem from misconceptions you have made no effort to rectify.
I don't intend to make any further clarifications in this thread; I'm tired of taking this overly formal, wordy tone.
