She says it's the most powerful GF; since she's the strongest sorceress, it'd make sense for her to seek out the shiniest toys. Squall, too, believes that Griever is the most powerful entity of its kind, hence his fascination.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
D Squall never says that. Yes it says something similar when you scan, but it doesn't go anywhere near detail. Even if that was all true it proves nothing.
If Squall imagined a GF to be all powerful, and mentioned it to Rinoa (for some bizarre reason NOT at the time she asked specifically about it) then what's to stop her creating it based on what Squall said and not just based on the ring?
"In Squall's mind, the strongest GF". That's what I'm basing this on. Unless, of course, the Scan spell is lying, it's logical to assume that Squall actually believes Griever to be the strongest.Quote:
D Squall never says that. Yes it says something similar when you scan, but it doesn't go anywhere near detail.
Hmm. Nowhere does it actually even hint that GFs can be created, least of all conjured up from pitcures. The Scan info for Griever says that Ultimecia gave it the power to continue fighting without vanishing, but that's all. You're assuming a lot of things with no factual basis for them:Quote:
If Squall imagined a GF to be all powerful, and mentioned it to Rinoa (for some bizarre reason NOT at the time she asked specifically about it) then what's to stop her creating it based on what Squall said and not just based on the ring?
1. Squall makes up this winged lion monster in his mind and names it Griever
2. Squall makes a necklace and ring featuring his imaginary pet, then adds the symbol to his gunblade and gunblade case
3. Squall pretends that Griever is real, and then describes it to Rinoa in great detail.
4. Rinoa becomes Ultimecia, then decides it'd be cool to create a GF based on her former boyfriend's imaginary friend, and does so, deciding it'd also be cool if it was the most powerful GF.
Now, everything that's actually said in the game suggests that Griever is a real GF; not universally known, but existent. Ultimecia acquired it and used it. Now, I know what you'll say to this - that no-one else knows about Griever or mentions it, Squall never says to Rinoa that it's a GF, etc... but look at Odin: no-one ever mentions Odin, or sees him until they go to the Centra Ruins. But how does Seifer react to Odin?
"Odin? Hah, I won't go that easily, Squall!"
Clearly, he's aware of Odin's existence and capabilities; he's surprised by Odin's sudden appearance, but even in the heat of battle he recognises the GF. Yet no-one, Seifer included, ever mentions Odin and it's possible that some don't even know about his existence.
:D Your reasoning seems to be "eliminate the reasonably possible, then whatever remains, however outlandish, must be the truth"...
I think that we can get really confusing here... so let's
I say we bring the R=U theory togethor with the "all FFs = same world theory" (IS there an offical name for this?)
Then we could possibly assume that Squall is, himself, Griver. (FFX's Aeons)
Thoughts?
Hey, why don't we combine this with the other most annoying threads in the world? Rinoa as Ultimecia travels through time to Final Fantasy X where she fights Unicron, who upon being defeated, tells her that she can get the GF Griever from the winner of the fight between Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. The winner will then tell her the true definition of "Tech-House" which is the numeralogical password to unlock the GF from the Kabbalah.
I know how ya feel, this thread is annoying :D But amusing at the same time. Nuff said.
D I didn't assume any of the things on that list, I briefly offered some parts of them as an explanation for the Griever scan.
It never says GFs can be created, but it never says where they come from either. Some are stored in powerful monsters, lamps, jewellery (that requires strange unlocking techniques), and some simply wait around for someone to prove there worth. I'm not even sure it states Griever is a normal GF anyway though I can't remeber so it's not that important.
The Odin point was fair. Though if Rinoa had asked Squall what the horseman on his ring was, he may not have said "He's called Odin, I like people who ride horses."
I don't look for the most outlandish explanation, I look for the one that best explains the quite phenomenal amount of coincidences in the game.
OOC: as for fallen_angel_666 it's been my screen name for years and years and almost a decade now yikes I feel old!
on topic, hmm true, also I heard from several reliable sources including the offical square guides that Tiamat was a GF at one stage but Ultimecia changed him into a monster so possibly if she can turn a GF in to nothing more than a powerful monster she created Griever herself to put Squall off guard or something using Tiamats powers to "Create Griever"?
Ellone sent Squall and the rest of the group back in time to let Laguna see Raine for the last time, along with Squall actually having a family.
Other than that, I don't think that R=U theory is right. Just my opinion, of course!
Heres where the Odin point meets its doom.
Squall shouts "ODIN!!" after Odin is split in half. Seifer says "Odin? Hah, I won't go that easily, Squall!" Notice theres a question mark.
Seifer heard Squall shout Odins name and commented on it. Odin? (oh thats what you call it) Hah, i won't go that easily, Squall!"
It would have been nice to have real voices in order to get Seifers tone. Was he in awe that THE Odin tried to attack him, or was he like "stupid name 'odin,' for a gf pet."
It correlates with the griever ring naming. You can name Odin anything as well as the ring and seifer and ulty use it in the same way. If I name Odin with "rubber ducky," will Seifer know to call it rubber ducky at all, or only after hearing Squall shout "Rubber Ducky!!"
Actually, Odin cannot be re-named; also, Odin appears at will rather than being summoned like a conventional GF. There's nothing at all to suggest that Squall called the GF's name during that battle. Seifer's "I won't go that easily" implies knowledge of Odin's power - i.e. that he generally finishes any battle with the greatest of ease.[q=PhoenixAsh]It never says GFs can be created, but it never says where they come from either. Some are stored in powerful monsters, lamps, jewellery (that requires strange unlocking techniques), and some simply wait around for someone to prove there worth. I'm not even sure it states Griever is a normal GF anyway though I can't remeber so it's not that important.[/q]GF are described in the tutorial, and aspects of their existence can be inferred from circumstances in the game. They're magical spirits, but capable of maintaining a physical form. It's clear that they're living creatures, though. Doomtrain and Diablos aren't actually "stored" in items; Diablos dwells in another dimension, but can cross into this one periodically. Doomtrain appeared all around the world, in response to the presence of certain items. See the magazine on bizarre events... in both cases, items merely serve as the 'conduit' for accessing the GF. Other GFs appear to have played a role in peoples lives in the past; Odin has a throne in the Ruins, apparently one that's just his size. He's rather huge, so it appears to be a custom-built piece of furniture. Tonberry and Cactuar seem to have arisen from monsters.However, he might've said, "Horsemen are known for their fearless strength in battle"; this corresponds to what he said about lions. Rinoa then might ask him the character's name, and he'd reply. Squall never merely said "I like lions".Quote:
The Odin point was fair. Though if Rinoa had asked Squall what the horseman on his ring was, he may not have said "He's called Odin, I like people who ride horses."
It's just very odd that Ultimecia would create Griever, "the most powerful HG", out of the memory of Squall or whatever, but then forget absolutely everything else relevant to the GF's existence. She clearly isn't senile; she knows what she's doing, but lacks any real knowledge of Squall and co. beyond what she saw during their possession. After all, when Edea was possessed, she tried to sacrifice Rinoa. Very stupid for Ultimecia to try to kill her 'younger self.''Phenomenal coincidences'? Try FFVII. (SPOILER)Cloud, as a young teen, admired Sephiroth and wanted to be more like him; similar to Squall's words about Griever. In the end, Cloud had to fight and defeat the man once considered 'the greatest'. Astonishing coincidence, or dramatic event? A 'weak' character having to overcome the supreme challenge, thereby proving his strength. Or else it could just be proof that Tifa and Jenova are the same person.:roll:Quote:
I don't look for the most outlandish explanation, I look for the one that best explains the quite phenomenal amount of coincidences in the game.
"Nothing that suggests he said that name..." It happened, I remember distinclty. Squall shouted his name (big words "Odin?!?!?" on screen) after being split in half by seifer. Then seifer goes into his Odin?... taunt.
Odin cannot be renamed...oops.
FFVII: (SPOILER) Everyone admired Sephiroth. Cloud didn't randomly get picked to fight him either, he had his home destroyed by him.
True, but it's still a lot less logical to say than "It's Odin, a legendry GF."Quote:
However, he might've said, "Horsemen are known for their fearless strength in battle"; this corresponds to what he said about lions. Rinoa then might ask him the character's name, and he'd reply. Squall never merely said "I like lions".
Why? Powerful magic forces DO drain your memory in FFVIII, that's fact. Even if it wasn't the sorceress magic then Griever is still close enough to a GF to probably have a similar effect, and this is after a long time.Quote:
It's just very odd that Ultimecia would create Griever, "the most powerful HG", out of the memory of Squall or whatever, but then forget absolutely everything else relevant to the GF's existence. She clearly isn't senile; she knows what she's doing, but lacks any real knowledge of Squall and co. beyond what she saw during their possession. After all, when Edea was possessed, she tried to sacrifice Rinoa. Very stupid for Ultimecia to try to kill her 'younger self.'
Hmm? Seifer said "Odin!? Hah, I'm not about to go that easy, Squall!" I don't recall Squall personally saying anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by celtcknight
I know... what I'm saying is that this amnesia has to be very selective in order to substantiate this theory, i.e. Ultimecia lost all knowledge of her past identity and dreams and desires, but retained full cognisance of Griever's significance to Squall, and a knowledge of certain details about past events and people. Just enough to make R=U tenable, but everything else - including key stuff like who she is - was lost.Quote:
Why? Powerful magic forces DO drain your memory in FFVIII, that's fact. Even if it wasn't the sorceress magic then Griever is still close enough to a GF to probably have a similar effect, and this is after a long time.
All we know about GF exposure is that it temporarily suppresses long-term memories, but those memories can return, given the proper stimuli. The basketball court scene proves this.
You guys need to get out more. Your making my head spin :D