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And so, with Sephiroth1999AD's words, 10,000 Cloud x Sephiroth yaoi fanfic writers were inspired, and lo, there was a plague upon mankind, and indeed Sephiroth 1999AD felt much regret with bringing about this catastrophe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD
Sorry to butt into this interesting discussion of the development of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa (or the lack of it). :whimper:
IMHO
How does it show compatibility when they hadn't truly tried living together?Quote:
Well, I have to disagree with You here.
At the first part of CoT, Cloud and Tifa were very much compatible with each other. Cloud even showed some affection towards her, when he blushed around, he said that it'll be alright, because Tifa is there for him.
Those are merely words, words of comfort, words indicating the willingness to try to live a new life together (with Barret and marlene, mind you).
Incompatibility factors in when they started living together.
Isn't the story development of CoT highlighting the incompatibility instead?
In short, I agree with silentchild. :)
Why does Cloud hide things from Tifa?Quote:
Their "incompatibility" thing only came after that delivery to the forgotten city. That was, when Cloud started to lose himself again. He felt in depression, and he distanced himself from Tifa.
I do not see any incompatibility their, only depression, whick makes people distant to each other (like in real life).
And what was the cause of his depression? I do not have anything against the theory that he relised that he can't let go of Aerith romantically, but that has to do nothing with that I saw that he finally let go of her at the end of the movie.
Like his fenrir, delivery jobs, visiting the church?
Incompatibility began when Cloud loved doing the above stuff but he hid them from Tifa, suggesting Cloud sensed that Tifa wouldn't like what he love.
What I don't understand is, what do you mean by letting go of Aerith romantically? If you truly believe that Cloud love Aerith from the bottom of his heart in the game and pre-AC, how does receiving forgiveness from Aerith and then saying "I know I'm not alone" suggest that he is letting go of her romantically? Isn't it more rational to think that Cloud is enlightened with the knowledge that Aerith was actually always by his side, something which he didn't realised until then, and it was this enlightenment that made him smile and said "I'm not alone". To me, it is more like a reinforcement of how much Cloud cherished the thought of Aerith being there by his side, and not that he was letting go of her romantically.
Oh I think it's cute, and startling accurate. It analyses indepth from both Cleris and Cloti pov, which is a good thing. Unless someone can do a good rebuttal to it, I wouldn't brush it aside as something merely comical myself. The neutral in me made me appreciate the effort put in by the author. The rabid in me giggled :love: .Quote:
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
Well, I think this page really overanalyzes a lot of things, and counting scenes and showing mathematical proofs is somehow very comical...
:grinpink:Quote:
And so, with Sephiroth1999AD's words, 10,000 Cloud x Sephiroth yaoi fanfic writers were inspired, and lo, there was a plague upon mankind, and indeed Sephiroth 1999AD felt much regret with bringing about this catastrophe.
If you claim Cloud let go of Aerith romantically, please explain the significance of the flowerfield to Cloud that prolongs even after AC.
There are photos of gold, scattered all over his desk, tacked on the walls, simply everywhere. There are flowers in the vase. There are flowers on the desk. Cloud was seen riding out to the flower field during Calling. Reminiscence shows he is somewhere in the flowerfields during Tifa's call. Why does the flower field have so much significance to Cloud if he has let go of her? Why did the producers choose to show him riding out to the flowerfields instead of riding home to Seventh Heaven as indication he has let go of her?
"I...I am not alone." How does that mean he lets go of her romantically?
That's a very rare kind of fan these days. :) You're a good debater, much respect points to you. I apologize if I'm a bit uptight, it's the kind of narrow minded fans that I cannot stand (even though I am one stubborn biased person myself).Quote:
Actually, I'm very open-minded, and I share similar thoughts with Clerises, and with Clotis also. I have my own interpretation of the compilation, which is not the same as biased Clerises' or biased Clotis', so I can easily agree with anyone.
Well, I do not see these things as incompatibility. I have things, that I do not tell my girlfriend, because everyone has their private factor. And I do not think, that we're incompatible with my girlfriend. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomoe
And when Cloud "hided" something from Tifa, it was nothing that made them separate. It started when Cloud fell in depression.
If you truly believe that Cloud love Aerith from the bottom of his heart in the game and pre-AC, how does receiving forgiveness from Aerith and then saying "I know I'm not alone" suggest that he is letting go of her romantically?[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomoe
Actually, I do not think it's only forgiveness. :)
Cloud knows at the end, that he belongs to the "upper world" (it was stated that he do not belong to the "dead world"), and with the "I'm not alone" statement, he indicates, that his friends are there for him, thus he's not alone.
Don't forget, that he felt alone the whole movie, although his friends were there.
If he would feel that Aerith will be there for him forever, and he would love her romantically, then it would be much logical for me, that he goes back living in the church, and not with Tifa and the children, but at the end, he goes back to 7th Heaven.
And don't forget how Cloud answers Tifa's loving look with a smile, before he sees Aerith. That's really much indicates for me, that he don't have to separate himself from her anymore (and note that I do not write anything like eternal love here :)).
Well, not for me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomoe
Well, I do not see that this page is truly neutral, but anyway, what does it have to do with Advent Children...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomoe
Well, in the first hand, I think Cloud do not want to forget Aerith. Letting go of her romantically does not mean that he wants to forget her. This is why he keeps a flower in front of the group picture of his desk.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentchild
But the flower field photos are nothing romantical for me, I think he made them for the children (they asked him if he can describe the places where he were, but he couldn't, so hes taking photos for them).
It's very unlogical for me that the photos shows romantical love.
And the flower fields were shown that Aerith is still watching over them as a motherly figure. It shows nothing that she's waiting for Cloud (don't forget that she gave her blessings to Tifa and Cloud in Maiden over the Planet).
Well, my point is that while he cared for her as much as anyone would care for a good friend, he never loved her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD
Oh yes, soooooo unbiased!:rolleyes2 Please, whover this is is clearly a Cleris supporter.Quote:
Actually, I did refer to an in-depth analysis on Cloud interactions with Tifa compared to Cloud's interactions with Aerith in FF7 a few posts up, completely based on the game script, taking in any considerable situation, but your kind friend refused to click on the link for fear it would eat him. You can look it up if you like. Just to note, it was not made by me, and I found it to be very unbiased.
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
Have you read MoTP? It gives a little bit more insight to how Aeris feels towards Zack.Quote:
Aeris loves Zack. They both revisit Cloud to make sure he's ok, but they do it togeather. It really seemed like they were a couple just by the way they handled it in the movie.
Well, except that MoTP shows how Cloud felt when Aeris died.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD
Taken from MoTP translation:
It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul - It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth.
She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater. There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart.
Then why would Cloud's part of Cloud still want forgiveness from Aeris in AC? I'm sorry, I've never believed that "the Zack in Cloud the only part of Cloud that loved Aeris" argument.Quote:
Yes, I am. And since Zack part of Cloud is the only thing that was attracted to Aeris, only the Zack part would grieve.
Oh well, your loss.Quote:
Yeah, it sure was. That's why I didn't even bother reading it.
*sigh* Yeah, Cloud wants to physically get with Aeris's corpse. Seriously, do you think we support that?Quote:
People here have been mostly talking about romantic love. And if Cloud has any romantic feelings for a corpse, then... eww, if that's what you're saying, I rest my case.
Strangely enough, Aeris never knew that Zack died until they met in the Lifestream. Maybe she can't sense everyone's death? I'm not sure.Quote:
Lets think back for a minute, when Cloud and the group speak to Aeris's mother about Aeris. Her mother says that she was able to feel her husband's death. So, why wouldn't she be able to feel Zack's death? She probably be able to sense it, considering she could sense someone she never even knew.
I don't think she was looking for another Zack within Cloud. Again, taking parts of MoTP:Quote:
Of course, another reason for her to move on was that she had found someone else who was like him.
She also had good feelings towards him. At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love. Cloud was her hero and he couldn’t get away from danger. She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to.
Passages like that make me believe that she really did want to love Cloud for Cloud, not the Zack parts of him.
Cloti shrines with essays (such as cloti-aikou.net) aren't any different.Quote:
Yeah, not just that, but the huge amount of Cloud-Aeris pics there doesn't imply at all that the one who wrote that is neutral and not biased towards Cloud x Aeris.
I don't have time to write much because I have to be somewhere in seven minutes, but I wanted to point this out. Is what you've said in AC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarius
I'm not sure I understand completely what you're saying, but yes, that's what's been stated in MoTP.Quote:
Is what you've said in AC?
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what MoTP is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarius
Maiden that Travels the Planet, which is Aeris's novella. The translations can be found here: http://www.xthost.info/ffwebnovel/
Oh it is...Cloud found a "new world that only he knew" and Tifa wasn't part of it, remember?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
Granted, you don't see those as incompatibility, but then how do you convince me they are compatible in the first place? :eep:
Yes, precisely why I feel that "I'm not alone" is not really directed at his friends.Quote:
Actually, I do not think it's only forgiveness. :)
Cloud knows at the end, that he belongs to the "upper world" (it was stated that he do not belong to the "dead world"), and with the "I'm not alone" statement, he indicates, that his friends are there for him, thus he's not alone.
Don't forget, that he felt alone the whole movie, although his friends were there.
I don't see why going back to 7th heaven means he is letting go of Aerith romantically? If he had gone back to living in the church, it would have meant that Cloud did not get the "enlightenment" that Aerith would always be by his side, no matter what --> it would have been back to square 1 :confused:Quote:
If he would feel that Aerith will be there for him forever, and he would love her romantically, then it would be much logical for me, that he goes back living in the church, and not with Tifa and the children, but at the end, he goes back to 7th Heaven..
I forgot about that, sorry. I thought he was smiling in general to everyone, mostly the kids, didn't catch one directed to Tifa solely.Quote:
And don't forget how Cloud answers Tifa's loving look with a smile, before he sees Aerith. That's really much indicates for me, that he don't have to separate himself from her anymore (and note that I do not write anything like eternal love here :)).
No problem at all, just like how your theory wasn't for me :)Quote:
Well, not for me. :)
I have no idea what it has to do with AC. I was commenting on it because you were doing so previously :hahaha:Quote:
Well, I do not see that this page is truly neutral, but anyway, what does it have to do with Advent Children...?
Even though it's written by a Cleris, did he or she twist facts? Like say giving more points to Aerith and blatantly ignore scenes with Tifa? :confused: Otherwise, how can you assume a Cleris cannot be neutral in one particular essay?
Like I've said, unless someone make a good rebuttal of how that page wasn't well written at all, instead of simply commenting that it wasn't good, I wouldn't simply brush it off. --> As neutral as can be. :D
He made them for the children? :eek:Quote:
Well, in the first hand, I think Cloud do not want to forget Aerith. Letting go of her romantically does not mean that he wants to forget her. This is why he keeps a flower in front of the group picture of his desk.
But the flower field photos are nothing romantical for me, I think he made them for the children (they asked him if he can describe the places where he were, but he couldn't, so hes taking photos for them).
It's very unlogical for me that the photos shows romantical love.
Denzel on Monday: So Cloud, where have you been visiting today?
Cloud: Flowerfields ^_^
Marlene on tuesday: Cloud! What places have you delivered those goods to?
Cloud: Flowerfields ^_^
Denzel & Marlene after 1 week: Wow...that's very interesting... you've been delivering stuff to flowerfields everyday... Is the outside world only made up of flowerfields?
Cloud: Flowerfields....flowerfields...flowerfields.
If flowerfield pictures, after showing the calling with Cloud and Aerith in it, scattered all over his desktop is unromantic i.e. no points for Cleris *beep* , how do you convince me of Cloti, who don't even have such pictures/bonus ending to speak of?
Did Aerith say she is watching them like a motherly figure and not waiting for Cloud?Quote:
And the flower fields were shown that Aerith is still watching over them as a motherly figure. It shows nothing that she's waiting for Cloud (don't forget that she gave her blessings to Tifa and Cloud in Maiden over the Planet).
Strangely, I also thought Tifa was more like a sisterly/motherly figure, smiling for Cloud at the church ending, and not romantic lover.
Are these contradictions due to the fact that I'm pro-Cleris, and you are pro-Cloti? :cry:
Oh...I see....so if I follow your logic, the only places he ever visits and takes photos of are flowerfields, since those happen to be the only photos we see. And they happen to be in his room, on his walls, on his desk. Wouldn't they be in a more appropriate place if it were for the children? Why is he keeping them in his room, his own personal space? Hmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
Shows 'nothing' she's waiting for Cloud? Please show me where it supports this argument.Quote:
It shows nothing that she's waiting for Cloud
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoTP
"LIVE", hence the quotation marks. ALIVE. Not get married and have 10 babies.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoTP
Cloud and the upper world. Is Aerith giving her romantical blessing to Tifa and the upper world too? She says it herself, she wants to take care of Cloud herself, that's why she's jealous. She's entrusting Tifa, her best friend, the person most likely to fight alongside Avalanche till the end - to look after everyone, just like how Aerith did. I don't see how this can mean "Marry Cloud and live happily ever after!" Actually, this sentence happens to tie in very nicely with Tifa's maternal feelings towards Cloud in CoT.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoTP
I see Your points and logic, and although I do not agree with it, but I respect it.
Sorry, I won't quote anything now, I have to go to the university...
We're not saying that hiding things makes you incompatible. The indications of incompatibility come from Tifa's disapproval of his hiding things from her. She was hurt when she found out that Cloud had taken a bouquet to the Forgotten City, and that Cloud hadn't told her. She was hurt when Cloud wouldn't drink with her. She was hurt when Cloud said that he had his own place. She was hurt when Cloud left without explanation. She was hurt when Cloud went to visit the Church without her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
She also showed disapproval of Cloud in other parts of CoT, such as the way he described places to the children. She disapproved of his tendency to be unsociable. In AC, she didn't like the way Cloud wouldn't fight against Geostigma. That's the incompatibility we see.
We don't think he let go of Aerith romantically. That's your idea, not ours. We believe that saying, "I know I'm not alone" suggests that Cloud now realizes that Aerith will always be with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
It's merely your interpretation that AC was about Cloud moving on. It's my interpretation that Cloud is now free of his guilt, which does not automatically mean that he will move on.
How do you know that he goes back to live at the 7th Heaven? We saw pictures and flowers on the desk of Cloud's office. That only means that Cloud went back to his office. There's no proof that Cloud went back there to live. That's only your interpretation. For all we know, Cloud will build himself a cottage in the flower field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
It looked to me as if Cloud barely glanced at Tifa before smiling at everyone. If my boyfriend gave me a look like Tifa gave Cloud, I'd respond with way more than a glance at him. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
Actually, the children were happy with the way Cloud described places. It was Tifa who disapproved of the way he described places. From CoT:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivi
The children were satisfied. It was Tifa who wanted more detail. Cloud's explanations were too simple for her taste. More indication of incompatibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Case of Tifa
The photos seem romantic to us because it's very much like having pictures of your girlfriend around your room. It may be impossible to take pictures of Aerith now, but he takes pictures of where she is. He also brings back flowers from the place where she is. AC also showed us that Cloud is able to see Aerith, communicate with Aerith, and touch Aerith, so it's likely that he's able to communicate with her in the flower field. Why are you so sure that Cloud has moved on when it's shown that the flower field - Aerith's place - is so significant to him?
Sorry, but it's starting to get ridiculous here. You're sounding like You want to convince me, that the Cleris theory is the truthness, and Clerises see things right, and everyone else not.
I have to say, that's a false pov. Even Nomura stated himself, that the love triangle's outcome is based on merely the viewer, and everyone interprets it as he/she likes, there's no official truthness.
So, if You want to see that Cloud go to the flower fields to meet with Aerith, feel free to think it, I don't really care, I disagree with it totally, but oh well. :)
And now for the quotes. :)
Cloud did not let go of Aerith yet, so he didn't tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastar
He did not sure of himself and in his feelings. He only has starting romantical feelings for Tifa, and not evolved feelings.
All of these happened when Cloud was depressed, so it has to do nothing with incompatibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastar
So, I do not see where is the incompatibility, I just see that Cloud suffers and being depressed, thus he hurts people around him. Don't forget that when he actually realised this, then he left the family.
You messed up the quote... I never said that what You quoted "from me"... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastar
Exactly. I never said anything what Cloud will do after AC, because how the hell we know...? I think he will move on with Tifa, You (and the Clerises) think that he won't. And...? I have to say again, that there's no official statement about Cloud's love life, so everything is based on interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastar
:D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Anastar
No offense, but that's a very funny interpretaion. :)
Again, they're not a couple (yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastar
Well, not for me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastar