Oh what a beast you have unleashed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
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Oh what a beast you have unleashed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
tl;dr most of it, but from what I did, so you're basically saying there is no right answer? well, by your argument English Literature shouldn't be classed as an academic subject then, because teachers just cannot mark you properly. All I was saying that you do have to draw a line somewhere, if someone put "the author introduced the character because he is an alien and likes to eat pie" then that is ludicrous and wrong, THAT is what I meant :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Vincent, Thunder GodWhy should a teacher have to gain trust not to be making "ludicrous assumptions" in the first place? I believe a completely off-topic response to a question, or not answering the question at all, is grounds for marking the answer as 0, but when I was asked for a specific opinion on a specific part of a book and that scene's theme, I'll meet that requirement, but I'm not changing my opinion just because it's considered to be "straying out too far" and I don't think it's fair to be marked 0 with my teacher disagreeing with my opinion. I believe I have a right to my opinions and to express them when asked, and I don't believe it's right for my teacher to give me a 0. I thought the reason books with more and more controversial themes were presented the higher you progress through the grades was to encourage people to become more and more open-minded and draw their own conclusions based on topics perhaps not yet introduced to them. I don't think controversial topics are raised just so I come to a difficult, challenging conclusion in my outline of the theme and my opinion on it only to have my teacher disagree and mark 0. I kept to the requirement, I analyzed the theme as asked, I'm not going to conform to one teacher's personal opinion of "actually knowing exactly what the author/poet meant" because you'll realize that, even with teachers, everyone has their own wildly original idea "of what the author meant." That's as it should be, but any attempt to force students who disagree with the teachers own opinions by taking away all my marks in an outrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldyMy teacher is like assistant head of English, so really what she does is right, what all these nasty, groggy teachers do is wrong, I always wonder why people like that bother teaching if they just cannot be bothered; It's not a job you can just 'switch off' from. We are a top set group, though and generally those sets do get more advantages as a teacher trust them to not make up ludicrous assumptions about a book cause they assume that we know our stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent, Thunder GodYeah, your teacher. Some of the best teacher's I've had were English teachers, but I've also had an equal amount that give pointless questions. I doubt Manus' attitude is the problem here as you seem to suggest, since I've always been extremely polite with teachers, but when I became too independent in my ideas, and diverged too far from their narrow-minded vision of what I should think, they told me off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldy
Sometimes, though, on some books a teacher (atleast my school anyway) actually know exactly what the author/poet meant, and if you stray too far out then obviously they have to stop you, it is an academic subject at the end of the day.
Don't I read to be introduced to issues without being bashed over the head with the author's opinions, making my analysis of his message all to obvious? Your ideas sound like what might be more realistic of a simplistic level of elementary required reading in which the theme was always obvious to me all along, but then, I was never asked my opinion then, merely completely explicit, right or wrong questions "what did X character do on page 70?" It was evident to the teachers that I was far beyond that stage even then, as I showed eagerness to explore the questions more, to state why the character did that and how it influenced the theme of the book,the teachers who even cared a whit about the quality of my work at all, cared about the stories I was writing when they only thought I couldn't even understand the concept of fiction, and was relegated to a diary in which most of my peers wrote a sentence, and I pages of narrative, not just about my day, but with in-depth self-analysis of how it made me feel to boot.
By your arguments, having opinions of a controversial complex theme is irrelevant when everyone should immediately agree the book is summed up by one person's opinion, and reading would be pointless altogether, as it would just be commonly accepted among everyone that one book always leaves the same emotional response and the same affect on learning for everyone, and that every student would automatically conform to that stance or be insane. But still, how can you just know his opinion is right without even reading the book, and I mean really reading the book. There is never any real hidden proof of which side the author is on, since the issue already raises so many different opinions the author feels pressured to remain objective, and readers must come to their own conclusions. He can try to present the tale in such a way that might sway the reader to the side of the conflict he favors, but if he immediately states the side he disagrees with is wrong, he'd immediately lose any credibility as an author of fiction. Nonfiction is for essays, fiction can have themes the author feels very importantly about, but he can't just assume it's an essay and he can act as if all his points are fact and proof of his correct opinion, because he's not in a debate about real life, he's entering a world of his own imagination, that must not be completely defined by how he perceives the world now, or there is no creativity.
Yet somehow you think that when your teacher is asking you to take whatever side your teacher thinks the writer is on, and insists you must "not stray too far" from what they wrongly believe is their definitive interpretation of a controversial issue presented objectively, in fiction, you must agree, or you should fail! Authors often say that their original message in the work was completely disregarded in the curriculum because it was over-analyzed by each teacher to find a way for a right or wrong answer to be based on what should be subjectively viewed in the first place. If you'd believed there might be another, say, worthwhile opinion, so that the entire world didn't all agree on what's right or wrong, maybe the opinion of the writer himself, what he personally felt as the message intended, and his own personal reason for writing the novel, his vision for its creation, was at all relevant, you you could have read it, straight from him, in an interview. But no, why would the writer know what opinion he really has of his work if it conflicts with your teacher's view of right and wrong? :rolleyes2
As long as I'm asked for a specific opinion based on a part of a thematically complex novel, I can't possibly be wrong in my opinion if it's also answers what was asked because I was asked what I thought, and since it's meant, by the author, to be subjectively interpreted, by the reader, the teacher shouldn't deduct marks if he merely disagrees. After all, if I wasn't meant to have my own opinion, why should I gain any inspiration from my own opinions of fictional character, to be inspired to create something different. And they wonder why all the media made is so repetitive and unoriginal, when students can't even feel ... different... about a novel, different enough to want to make their own novel outlining their own opinion that they came to based on other books, when they aren't encouraged. Ironically, many people consume that same rehashed media, because they were trained to have no opinion.
Furthermore, even without consideration to formulating my own free thought, why should I have to over analyze every little detail of a novel when I want to just take the book for what it is, a whole work, not fragmented into many questions picked, usually, from thousands of sentences, or 100s of pages?
By your logic, if you were to write your own novel, I could invalidate your reason for writing it by exposing it to millions of kids who were not to think of it as they chose, because I happened to be an Eng. lit. teacher and said I had the definitive view of the novel, without ever consulting you, and proceeded to force all those children to agree with me, or they'd "stray too far." I could select exactly what tiny segments of the book to highlight, as if I were you, the author, and knew exactly what the key events of the book were to properly highlight the major theme I want to present.
That's all Manus and me are trying to say - we don't believe that's a way to actually formulate your own idea of the novel, but rather systematically remove all enjoyment of the novel through tonnes of endless analyzing while having whatever views seem... different... to be torn to shreds.
I'll bet it's easy, if you can just repeat exactly what your teacher thinks about the novel, he or she will clearly try to convince you, and slightly alter the words. Easy, but you're just being programmed to think the way he is. Either that, or you don't care what he thinks, and go into your next class prepared to completely undermine your previous work's "opinions" if your next teacher feels differently. Either way, hardly of any practical use in learning.
I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong within reason, but there is no right or wrong opinion on a fictional work and never should be. See above comments if you need any further logic than that, it seems Zeldy does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harle-Quin
Also, most of the time my teachers have actually met the poet/author and asked that way. I know that they met the poet, Simon Armitage, and was able to conclude poems such as Homecoming which is completely ambiguous.
"See above comments if you need any further logic than that, it seems Zeldy does."
what the smurf? Oh wow, someone had opposition to your comments so you call them an ignorant dumbass who won't accept when they're wrong? nice. Ofcourse there is a right or wrong answer, yes it could be argued that there shouldn't be but at the end of the day there is, the poet had some reason to put it down and not just 'it sounds good' so yes, there is a right answer. Is it an academic subject, yes or no? By your arguements, English shouldn't be classed as one.
In all fairness the arguments about a lack of originality of arguments in English Literature because you just write down in your essays what your teacher thinks is more a weakness of The Arts than it is of literature specifically. It applies to many more subjects as well, but The Arts in particular. I read On Liberty recently and in it, Mills argues that because people rarely entirely question a judgement properly by looking at something from all angles, examining the counter-arguments and finding out for yourself why it is wrong, rather than being told why it is false and going with it is a problem with people in general and certainly not one exclusive to literature.
At the end of the day, art in all forms is a very subjective thing and what a piece of music, a story or a paint means depends on how we as individuals interpret it. What I get from a piece of art may substantially differ from what you would and I think that's a key thing to keep in mind when studying literature. Perhaps a writer simply used a certain metaphor because it sounded good, but that lack of certainty leaves plenty of room open for speculation and exploration of what something means to the individual and how they interpret it. Literature is really not as useless and flowery as a lot of you seem to be painting it.
LOLOL Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Some English lit student. :p Do you just read what you're told to, or actually anything that's not required? :p Is there any enjoyment of reading there, or is it a mere means to an end to you? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Zeldy
I'm saying that when it comes to an opinion based on art, yes, there is no way to mark based on opinion - other than the effort and creativity evident in the student's work. Opinions should never be discriminated against, but creativity and effort in expressing them should be encouraged. Whether or not the opinion conflicts with the teachers' or indeed the author's, if it was expressed well, that is worth a good mark. Thus, of course English should be a subject, but opinions shouldn't be seen as "right or wrong."Quote:
but from what I did, so you're basically saying there is no right answer? well, by your argument English Literature shouldn't be classed as an academic subject then, because teachers just cannot mark you properly. All I was saying that you do have to draw a line somewhere, if someone put "the author introduced the character because he is an alien and likes to eat pie" then that is ludicrous and wrong, THAT is what I meant :p
Right, because every English lit teacher has flown all over the world, met every author and interviewed them enough to have the definitive view of their works. :pQuote:
Also, most of the time my teachers have actually met the poet/author and asked that way.
Or the meaning was simply above your teachers' narrow minded comprehension. :pQuote:
I know that they met the poet, Simon Armitage, and was able to conclude poems such as Homecoming which is completely ambiguous.
Honestly though, everything is ambiguous, which is as it should be, or the very concepts known as "freedom of speech" and "opinion" wouldn't exist. If we can't draw our own conclusions based on our own experiences, and merely saw whatever our authority figures told us was immediately right, our minds would be slaves.
When did I ever say that? I'm debating, not insulting. If I have insulted you in any way, I humbly apologize. That was not my intention. I am trying to defend your right to have an opinion other than what your teachers might tell you.Quote:
what the smurf? Oh wow, someone had opposition to your comments so you call them an ignorant dumbass who won't accept when they're wrong? nice.
Any author has his reason for writing his work, of course. However, the beauty of art is in the viewer, because he or she can choose to apply its truth to his or her own life, whether or not it is the same conclusion made by the author or your teachers. I am sure authors write what they do to have the reader experience his work and somehow be affected in a unique way, not to shove his personal visions of his own work down our throats, though your English teachers seem quite intent to do just that. People wouldn't flock to museums to see famous paintings unless they could see what they wanted in the art, since no one wants to experience something whose meaning is automatically considered fact.Quote:
Ofcourse there is a right or wrong answer, yes it could be argued that there shouldn't be but at the end of the day there is, the poet had some reason to put it down and not just 'it sounds good' so yes, there is a right answer. Is it an academic subject, yes or no? By your arguements, English shouldn't be classed as one.
Why else would we read, unless to be influenced and inspired? Why should we read, if only to agree with someone else just because they told you to?
Completely agreed. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath
Genji just made this for no apparent reason. He also asked me to post it here. Also for no apparent reason.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...9/rotoburn.png