Juri's throw range sucks though, have you played with her? She basically has to be nose to nose with her opponent
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Juri's throw range sucks though, have you played with her? She basically has to be nose to nose with her opponent
I don't think characters have longer throw ranges than others...at least i don't know as of now. I know that character's hitboxes tend to be bigger (like Juri's since she is able to be infinited by Fei Long). If all else fails just backdash, Karakusa has long recovery frames.
>>> SF characters just cant get more bizarre. Congratulations Capcom!.:luca:
My friend got this game and let me borrow it while he went out of town to mac on some chick. I've been playing it since the weekend. And I'm thoroughly in love with Juri, her playstyle is exactly what I've been looking for. Unfortunately a good portion of her moves have no precedence. And her recovery time is horrible compared to Ryu and Guile who can basically keep from getting punished for blocked moves. I try to punish them and end up getting it myself 'cause their recovery time is almost instant. So far those are the only two I've had the most trouble with. Other than the throwing people, but Zangief has always been cheap in that regard so its not a surprise or anything. Getting grabbed out of a move/combo even after he takes the first hit.... Ridiculous
Either way I definitely love this game. And just like the original IV I'm tempted to finally get a joystick >_>; Expensive bastards
If you like Juri you should probably give the King of Fighters series (before XII) a try (says the man with a KOF avatar). She and Viper seem to be characters designed more like a KOF person.
Command throws do generally have a larger range than normal throws, however Makoto's karakusa is much shorter than Zangief or T-Hawk's special throws. Probably shorter than Honda's too. The HK karakusa does have the longest range of the 4 grabs (the EX Kara is shorter), but the distance gained is mere pixels.
There is a very dangerous carry-over from Street Fighter 3 called Kara-canceling. If you're familiar with the training stage, Makoto's Kara-Karakusa extends the range of that grab by nearly a whole 'square' on the floor. It takes longer to come out because it's basically canceling one move into the grab (and it's also not super easy to do--though I can pull it off 80% of the time), but the range of it will surprise you. She can 'kara' into some of her other specials to extend their range by almost one 'training stage square'--her EX Hayate (dash punch) can basically make it across the entire screen using that glitch.
I haven't played with Juri much so I don't know if she has any good moves to do it with, but Makoto has one that greatly increases the range of many of her moves.
Then that means you arent doing combos. You aren't linking them with the right timing and the other guy is mashing 360s. You can easily punish them by jumping instead.Quote:
Other than the throwing people, but Zangief has always been cheap in that regard so its not a surprise or anything. Getting grabbed out of a move/combo even after he takes the first hit.... Ridiculous
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I personally found HK Karakusa to grab someone 3/4 of a body away. It just has more startup frames compared to every other version to compensate for it. A good way theoretically to grab someone is to know the frame advantages and disadvantages of certain moves, then compare it to Karakusa's startup frames. You can then try to combo into a Karakusa due to the long startup frames(i think its 7 for a Normal version?). If you can somehow frame trap them to under 3 frames, then you cannot get thrown by them teching.
I think her standing light kick is kara cancelable in this game. Also you can cancel into a fake Hayate during a combo to reduce the frame gaps and allow you to cancel into things never before possible. She is funkeh!
As for Juri's Kara-techniques i would have no clue. I don't know her that well, but a good way to see if she does have one is to first find a move that moves her forward, then see if it is cancelable into other moves without it having to extend all the way (which is the definition of a Kara(empty) Cancel, you cancel from hitting nothing).
Heres an example of Ken's Kara throw:
Example: YouTube - Ken's Kara Throw - SFIV
Tutorial: YouTube - SF4- How to do Ken's Kara Throw
Ah... yeah. I'm so paranoid about jumping. I usually punish jumpers, rather than be a jumper myself. But I guess you gotta face different enemies different ways. And you're right. I'm still learning combos with her so as far as straight up brawling in their face, I'm extremely vulnerable so I try to avoid it if the other player seems to know how to use their characterQuote:
Originally Posted by Lionx
As for the KOF suggestion, I've only ever played one. But I can't remember feeling very at home. But I don't think I tried a lot of characters. Kinda like Guilty Gear. Being a huge Street Fighter fan, I should probably love that there are other great 2D fighters out there. And I do love the idea of them. But I found myself struggling hard core. Maybe I need to take a second look and get deeper into the mechanics
On a side note back to my previous post. I have discovered a way that Juri can potentially hardcore punish fireball spammers. So grapplers might be my only problem anymore. I haven't done a lot of practice, but she's got a move that works like a focus attack, except its more of a dodge. It only works on "certain moves". Which appears to include all fireballs. It makes her dip past them either forward, backwards, or up in the air. I didn't realize its potential in the challenge trials. But that mode is horrible about giving you practical information. Once it has you do moves, it really is just more about testing you than teaching you anything. I've tried a few characters, and heard complaints from a few SF vets that agree attempting a lot of the stuff you'd learn in trials will probably get you a foot to the face if you tried it in a match. Aside from the people who have Ultras that make them combo happy
Its just very easy to punish someone once you figure out all that they are doing is spamming 360 motions. Just do a string of weak attacks and then hop up and smack them on recovery. If they are any smart they will vary it up...but the fact that they vary it up means that they can't mindlessly spam anymore hoping to get you in those gaps and you can try more gutsy attempts like walk up throw or other punishes.
KoF has a different combo system compared to SF in general. Think of it as a dynamic more offensive based street fighter with lots of subsystems.
Juri IMO already has a good answer to fireball spammers, which is her Dive Kick. If anyone throws them out randomly you can easily divekick them, hopefully EX into Ultra 2. The "Parry" move i found little use offensively during the time i played it. As Makoto i would just stick out another poke and combo Juri upon recovery of the move. I feel its more of a runaway/mixup move more than a fireball workaround.
You would have to be close enough to get hit by the fireball and if you are at that range you could probably just jump over it. The only application offensively i can see is maybe if you can spot a gap in their blockstring that leads into a fireball that you can sneak past them...but spammers i think there are more effective punishes since they are going to do fireballs at unsafe distances.
As for Trials, some are useful actually. But others are garbage. Take it as a way of you being able to figure things out. Like what other combos can i practically use these moves in? What setups can it make or alterations to them can i make if it is blocked? Don't follow them like a book, use them as guidelines and go a little bit deeper into them. Everything else is experience and knowing the opponent.
The dive kick used to be my answer for a fireball. And online that's probably what its best for since they're forcing her to jump and she's deadly in the air because of that. But I trained against the computer and Ryu and Guile have instant recovery once their Hadoken/Sonic Boom leaves their hands they're ready to knock me out of my dive attack. Its ridiculous and I don't know if a human is capable of reacting that fast but if they are I needed something else. The dodge forward is quicker, though less reliable. Its a lot less frantic to jump over a fireball. But I see the dodge having potential. Since you have to use a low punch for dipping forward, if you hit it more than once then you're already starting a combo the moment you're in their face. But like I said, I haven't actually tried it out yet. I just needed a second option for Ryu/Guile
Against the computer i wouldn't have a clue. But against humans just mix up the timing of the Dive Kick, like don't just fire it off all the time, fire it off a little later so they are recovering because it is hard to always reaction uppercut your Dive Kick. Mix it up with just jumping up and doing nothing too along with your own fireballs.
You can also use Dive Kicks to chase after people who are knocked down by you far away. Close the distance so they can't start their mid/long range game.
I guess i personally don't like relying on the Parry move too much because it makes you commit to something. But i can try that out next time i get around to it to see if its any good. I just know i tagged my friend alot after he used that move.
I did some training with it earlier. It worked maybe 25% of the time. Its really hard to pull off on the fly for me for some reason. More often I'd just stand up and jab their fireball lol Which isn't very productive. Its hard to make my mind react offensively to a fireball rather than do the instinctual block or jump
This is where I wish I had more offline friends who knew how to play a decent round in a fighting game >_>
At such a close range where you can dodge the fireball and still punish them in recovery, it would be hard to react to anything. I also think its unsafe to do fireballs at that range since you can easily jump over them so most good players would just stop throwing them at that range anyway.
If you were to get it to work though, it would have to be because you 'know' this opponent that well and the lil quirks he has to be able to pull it off. You can't do it reactionary imo during a match. Try setting your dummy to ALL BLOCK and record it throwing a fireball...then see if the distance you do it in can tag the dummy or not.
Sometimes its best to not try to escape every situation, but deal with it. Its okay if you block the fireball or just neutral jump it every now and then trying to inch in to that perfect sweet spot where jumping in is a good idea to make them stop tossing fireballs.
Good tip for testing. I'll have to do that. I agree with pretty much everything you said. My problem wasn't really that people throw fireballs. I can live with that. My problem was the computer set on hardest difficulty would catch me instantly everytime I tried to punish it for spamming fireballs. Your suggestion is a great way to see their limits. I assume if they can't block then I'm probably doing it too fast for them to throw a move as well. But now that I think about it I'm pretty sure they always got me with an EX Flashkick/Dragon Punch. I don't know SF -that- deeply so it wouldn't surprise me if EX moves come out a lot quicker so stuff like that can happen. Maybe I'll just have to condition myself to let them go when they have an EX bar or two built up
The problem with the computer is that, they probably won't throw out a move until you already thrown yours out in your situation. Its basically finding what they are weak against and abusing it. I personally wouldn't play the computer since it gives you bad habits. But you just gotta experiment if you do.
Certain EX Moves come out faster and are stronger, others are just a different version of the said special move. They are different depending on the character.
Examples:
- Abel's EX Tornado Throw cannot be hit out of, but can be beaten by normal throws. This is in contrast to the normal Tornado Throw which cannot be thrown (by ANYTHING, even Ultras) but can be jabbed out of. Does the same damage as hard punch Tornado Throw, not more and has worse recovery than if you didn't EX.
- Makoto's Karakusa starts up in 5 frames instead of 7 and gains one hit of super armor.
- Ryu's Red Fireball fires out faster, has better recovery, hits twice, and juggles. Ryu's EX Shoryuken has full body invincibility on the way up and does less damage to trade off on this advantage.
- Guile's Flash Kick comes out faster, hits twice, and has more invincibility on it compared to regular one.
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Sometimes its not that they come out faster, but they just have certain properties that are beating what you are doing straight out due to them spending meter.
Viper's Ex TK sucks though. It's the slowest of all the tKs it's the slowest to cancel, a lot easier for someone to punish if they see it coming. It's only bonus is that it's long range and that it stuns. It would've been great if it came out faster though.