Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

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That's the smurfing point.

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And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.

This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.

Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.

Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?

The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.

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As uncomfortable a point this is to agree with, Spooniest isn't wrong. It's worth remembering that Square Enix is a primary Japanese company, and Japanese cultural norms are far from similiar to western ones - A lot of the stuff that's regarded as a-okay over there still freaks us out for the most part. But who are we to argue their values are plain wrong?

Ultimately, whatever stances the Japanese have re: Sexualisation are mostly their own to worry about. We can voice our disagreements (and yes, I do disagree with Cidney's clothing choice like pretty much everyone else in this topic) as much as we like, but they're not obliged to change them because us Westerners said so. You could argue it makes sense from a business standpoint to discourage female sexualisation, but I don't readily have access to, say, US/Japan sales figures to draw that kinda conclusion myself.

Again, not the easiest point to make or agree with, but I attended an anthropology class recently and it really got me thinking about issues like ethnocentrism.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.

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Well, I didn't say "at what point does ethnocentrism negate fighting for discrimination," I said "at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism?" What is the relationship between these two concepts?

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

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I'm assuming by "non-exploitative" you mean "covers up legs, covers up boobs, doesn't wear skintight gear and is generally a sweet person"? And are using their default attire, not including fanart, etc.

In which case (do forgive me if some of them are actually poor role models, I haven't played all games), at least surely some of these must apply: White Mage, Refia, Porom, Leonora, Calca, Brina, Lenna, Faris, Krile, Aeris, the female Turks, Quistis, Freya, Yuna (FFX), various FFXI characters, Penelo, Lightning, Agrias.

EDIT: As for "Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?" - reword that to "Is it right for me to shame that culture for having gender discrimination?" and the answer is yes, because no person should be discriminated against because of their gender without a damned good reason (eg. sporting events, bathrooms, that kind of thing - and even then you could argue further on whether it's appropriate).

It begs the question: what is the definition of a positive female role model that we are working from?

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.

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Well, I didn't say "at what point does ethnocentrism negate fighting for discrimination," I said "at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism?" What is the relationship between these two concepts?

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Hell if I know. Guess you can encounter it if the sexism in your own culture is one day abolished and you start looking your nose down on other cultures that hasn't done the same, like America is likely to do on the day it happens. Or like the rest of the world does to America on... pretty much everything.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

It begs the question: what is the definition of a positive female role model that we are working from?

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Indeed. Really, being a role model should only come from their words and actions - not what they wear. Because no woman should be judged on her clothing (nor man, for that matter). So long as you're a good person, it's all gravy.

Near as I can tell, the issue is the tenet of polite society that breasts be covered. Displaying one's breasts is thought of as uncouth, attention-seeking, loud, garish, and over-the-top. Outrageous.

Why does this sound like Cid...?

NEWSFLASH: SQUARE ENIX PULL CIDNEY FROM FINAL FANTASY XV DUE TO FANS ANGER OVER BOOBS

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Near as I can tell, the issue is the tenet of polite society that breasts be covered. Displaying one's breasts is thought of as uncouth, attention-seeking, loud, garish, and over-the-top. Outrageous.

Why does this sound like Cid...?

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Eh, not so sure it sounds like Cid. Every Cid has been pretty different in all honesty. I don't think any of them have been sexualised to this degree, people are right about that. If the character were not named Cid (or Cidney or Cindy) then I don't think people would have batted too many eyelids. Things you can generally define most Cids by would be: Something to do with airships, older than the main cast, one of the good guys. There are naturally notable exceptions to these rules.

I guess I'm thinking particularly of IV and VII, yeah. But those were my favorite portrayals, so I guess it's confirmation bias at work.

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Originally Posted by fat_moogle

NEWSFLASH: SQUARE ENIX PULL CIDNEY FROM FINAL FANTASY XV DUE TO FANS ANGER OVER BOOBS

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Nah, it was because they knew I'm a likely suspect of bombing them. You've appeased me for now, Square.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

First, Shlup, if your going to cite a source, you should do it properly and not have the link embedded in a sentence in the middle of long paragraph. Very easy to miss.

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Are we going to argue about the appropriate way to cite things in a forum post? Nobody likes a pedant.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

I also have a small issue with the fact that are no sources cited for her(the female speaker in the video) research in the video description. Did any of you research her claims any farther than watching said video? I doubt it. And you people call my scientific method into question..:lol:

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You can doubt it, but you would be wrong. Caroline Heldman is a PhD, a professor, and highly published. I've read a bit of her work, though it's mostly political (she's worked in politics), which I both enjoy and really don't enjoy at the same time. She got that number herself analyzing media in 2010--because, like, that kind of stuff is part of her job. You can decide to dismiss a respected professional and her work based on nothing but your "feelings" on the topic if you want, I suppose. I appreciate that, instead of offering something that proves anything I've said wrong, you're just saying "Nah, I choose not to believe this information, therefore you're wrong." You sure put me in my place.

I mean FFS. :mymelbert:

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

Your original statement was-

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http://home.eyesonff.com/images/imag...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Shluphttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/imag...post-right.pngTo be fair, according to video games, 90+% of women have large breasts without the trunk and thighs to support them.

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This is what I took issue with. This is factually incorrect, and not even supported by the evidence you gave. The woman in the video said "96% of sexually objectified images are of women". 96% of the images they deemed sexually subjective. That is quite subjective in it's self, but we have no way to check her methodology b/c their are no sources to check her research. Also, that doesn't support your claim that "90+%" of women in video games have large breast.

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You're right, it's not supported by the evidence I gave. What you're doing here is taking the one exaggeration I made (which is not related to Caroline Heldman's research) and using that to dismiss everything I've said, including things I've offered citations for, based on that one thing. Though I do apologize that it wasn't obvious that I was being facetious with that comment. If I state something specific like that as fact, I wouldn't post it without a citation.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

What you've done, is to try to put everyone that doesn't agree with your view that Cidney's attire is inappropriate on one side of the fence(the one where your are a misogynist/sexist), and yourself & those who agree with you, on the other side(the side of righteous).

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You would be hard pressed to convince me that Cidney's attire is appropriate for her role as a mechanic. I don't appreciate you putting the words "misogynist" and "sexist" into my mouth though; I never called anyone any such thing.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

I never said women aren't objectified more than man(see previous post). My argument was only that Cid's outfit is not inconsistent with with how FF characters are portrayed in the past(male & female). And you agreed, but yet you seem to have an issue with the fact that she has cleavage even though she's a mechanic. Why try and make this an argument about the unwarranted sexual objectification of women, when we know almost nothing about Cidney's character/personality? And, yes. It does sorta come-off as slut shaming.

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You can't simultaneously make the argument that female characters in games aren't oversexualized all that much, and also the argument that oversexualizing a female characters is consistent with how characters in FF games are portrayed.

And I don't agree that male characters in FF are sexualized even a fraction of the amount of the female characters. Even if I do agree that female characters are consistently sexualized, that doesn't come anywhere close to meaning I'm then somehow okay with that. The point I'm making is that the frequency with which female characters are objectified actually makes me the opposite of okay with it, so telling me her titties are consistent with how characters are treated by the series would be actually proving my point.

I know enough about Cidney's character to know her outfit makes the opposite of sense. It's a very cheap and forced attempt to give males something to oogle. The very idea that you're pretending otherwise is just insulting. I understand that you may be completely unable, to understand disparities in how men and women are treated by the media, how that reflects society, and how it influences society, but you can't possibly be dense enough to think there is a context where that outfit makes sense for that character, even if you are willing to completely ignore the implications of the first female Cid being hyper sexualized in a culture where sexual objectification of women already far outpaces men. I don't believe you are unable though; you seem really unwilling though. I don't understand your personal investment in defending an obvious cheap trope.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Shlup: Neither Cidney or FF exist in a vacuum, but I'm one of "those people" that don't think a game should try to balance out the rest of the world, I believe a game should be the fairest it can be, the best it can be. Final Fantasy is completely entitled to have a cast of attractive characters. I don't believe that Final Fantasy games are designed 100% for males. I do believe that the characters are designed to be as attractive as they can be and I don't think there is this huge imbalance in character models depending on the gender. So far I think FFXV has had "healthy/fit male" and "healthy/fit female". I don't live in a vacuum, nor does Cidney, nor does Final Fantasy. But that doesn't mean Cidney, Final Fantasy and myself all need to overcompensate to make up for the 96% out there. I think Final Fantasy are one of the few out there who are doing it right, or extremely close to right, and I'm not the kind of guy that believes they have to be the ones to add in a complete cast of ugly ladies with two sexualised men to attempt to balance out all the inconsistencies the rest of the media world has.

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Yes, they are entitled to objectify women in a cheap attempt to sexually thrill male players. And I'm entitled to criticize that cheap attempt. I'm entitled to feel disappointed that a franchise I enjoy would choose to make Cid female for the first time ever, but also make sure she's sexy and her clothing exposes her to the point where it's a ridiculous and dangerous outfit for her profession.

You don't need to overcompensate. Maybe you could just, like compensate. No one's saying make a game with all ugly people on purpose to counter-balance all the attractive people. I mean, really, you can save this really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. martyr for the titties bulltrout. No one's saying she has to be ugly, just that her outfit is stupid. It's cheap pandering at the expense of a group of people who are already treated as sexual objects to the point where people see men as whole people and women as a sum of their parts. Do you understand how much this kind of culture affects everything? And yet, someone opens their mouth and says "Hey, that outfit is stupid," and we have to spend multiple pages defending why we think it's stupid to perpetuate a cliche that already has many well documented negative effects on men and women alike. Because you want to be one of "those people" who says "Hey, it's not my responsibility to care," even though caring costs you very little. Like, literally all I'm doing is saying is "that outfit is stupid" but that's just too much effort for Daniel! Not your responsibility to take seven seconds to acknowledge the outfit is cheap pandering!

Hell, the only reason we're even having this conversation is because, as soon as one person made a small comment criticizing the outfit, people had to come in to be sure everyone understood that sexual objectification is totally no big deal. I don't understand the motivation. Is the idea that women should be displayed for your sexual pleasure maybe a little less frequently threatening somehow? I don't think that's the case but it's all I can think of.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Don't call me "purpopsefully dense". You're going around insulting my intelligence or attitude or integrity and I don't appreciate it. Debate the details, not the person, or stop debating at all.

Regarding your reasoning for calling me purposefully dense: I do believe that unattractive males barely exist in Final Fantasy, and I do believe there is the odd unattractive female in Final Fantasy, so while unattractive (males AND females) columns will be near-empty, they will not be empty. You yourself mentioned Brahne like... four sentences earlier as an unattractive female, negating your point. Despite this I don't believe you are purposefully dense at all.

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Oh for goodness sake, it's not like I called you a name. I called you out on your behavior. I apologize; I thought you would have to be purposefully dense to say "It's fair and equal" with a straight face. That was my mistake, unfortunately.

Anyway, I specifically stated playable characters, not that I believe the ratio would be much different, if any different, if we were to take the time and effort into expanding it into all named characters. Regardless, you think is equal? Fine, I'll tally that trout up for you right now.

Playable characters in FF3-13 (I skipped 1 & 2 because they're pixels FFS):
Attractive males: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 29
Unattractive males: |||||||||||||||| 16
Attractive females: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25
Unattractive females: ||| 3
Non-gendered: | Quina

That makes 35.5% of male playable characters unattractive (I counted Sazh and Shadow as attractive, for example) and 10.7% of females (Porom, Freya, and Eiko). A male character is more than three times more likely to be unattractive than a female character. You think this is equal? There are several (four or five? I didn't count) elderly male characters, but zero female. I did not count whether or not they were sexy, mostly because I just kind of want to go to bed, though the project I'm working on will include that kind of information.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

No, not really. We can free the titties of their bondage if we just believe hard enough.

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I think it'll take more than just a few people 'believing' and I think you know that. You can't walk down main streets of cities with your boobs out without either acting out against the law and (much more likely) being looked upon by hundreds of people with all kinds of unwanted attention. As I say... we have to deal with the culture we're given.

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Sorry, I'm one of "those people" who doesn't believe in doing more than just believing. How're you gonna come at me as one of "those people" who thinks calling an outfit stupid is too much effort and then preach at me about doing more and "believing"? I'm the one who's speaking out against stupid sexist bulltrout here. I'm the one with my boob exposed in public because I will not be sent to a booth or wear an uncomfortable blanket to feed my kid. How about you try doing more than just "believing," like just smurfing acknowledging that Cidney's outfit is sexually objectifying and that is a problem? Even if you still like the series and the game and the character, that outfit is trout for more reasons than it just being ugly.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I agree it's excessive in general, like films, advertising, etc. I can only assume that this is down to marketing and that sexy men just don't make people want to buy things nearly as much as sexy women. That's a whole different discussion though and I haven't put much thought into it, but my general feeling is that it's a problem to which I don't know the solution without restricting freedom of an artist. And it's worth noting that in my experience, girls freakin' love creating art of girls rather than men. I think it's something about the generally more aesthetically pleasing curves on a woman as opposed to a man, I dunno.

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Yes, we can tell you haven't put that much thought in it. And I don't say that to come down on you, but I do think you should put some thought into it, for goodness sake. You want a solution? I'll give you a hint: simple things like saying "Hey, I don't appreciate the cheap pandering of a mechanic in a nonsensical costume for the sake of being sexy" is participating in the solution. That is literally all I require of you. The TeDx talk I posted also has quite a few of the answers to the questions you're asking.

Here is another good link, if you have the time. You could save it for later if you want. Or save it for when you have a daughter and these issues really start to mean something because you don't want her to value herself primarily based on her looks.

You want this changed?

Find any and all inboxes on the internet of anyone having anything to do with Square and send them a link to T-shirts made by this Fashion Designer who has designed the costume.

Do it all day every day until they change it.

There. Action.

I have no idea what you lot are talking about. Cidney's outfit is perfectly reasonable for a mechanic. When I had my car fixed the other week she certainly knew what she was doing and didn't appear to get any grease on her exposed skin.

I'm not sure why she felt the need to lick her wrench but I'm sure that is an insider trick to enhance it's productivity.


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Originally Posted by Shlup

Yes, they are entitled to objectify women in a cheap attempt to sexually thrill male players. And I'm entitled to criticize that cheap attempt. I'm entitled to feel disappointed that a franchise I enjoy would choose to make Cid female for the first time ever, but also make sure she's sexy and her clothing exposes her to the point where it's a ridiculous and dangerous outfit for her profession.

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:up: Fair enough!

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Originally Posted by Shlup

No one's saying she has to be ugly, just that her outfit is stupid.

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To be fair, I agree with this much. I don't mind it being stupid because I'm a typical guy who has no issue looking at boobs. On the flipside, I don't mind if girls want to sexualise men, either. And I say this despite considering myself rather unattractive in appearance. I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders. I imagine Cidney is dressed to titilate and I'm okay with that.

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Because you want to be one of "those people" who says "Hey, it's not my responsibility to care," even though caring costs you very little. Like, literally all I'm doing is saying is "that outfit is stupid" but that's just too much effort for Daniel!

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To be fair, I joined the conversation long after it was simply "This outfit is stupid." :shobon:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Hell, the only reason we're even having this conversation is because, as soon as one person made a small comment criticizing the outfit, people had to come in to be sure everyone understood that sexual objectification is totally no big deal. I don't understand the motivation. Is the idea that women should be displayed for your sexual pleasure maybe a little less frequently threatening somehow? I don't think that's the case but it's all I can think of.

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It's not the case, I'm just saying that I don't think it's automatically a problem the first moment we see a girl who has her rack on display. I mean, if you live in a hot climate, this kind of thing happens. It happened in NZ all the time, I saw it in America while I was there, Menorca had it in droves, hell, the girls in Sweden and even Scotland do it sometimes. This is a Thing That Happens. Sure, they picked the most ridiculous character to do it with, but then, this is Square Enix and that's par for the course - girls and guys alike. If a guy has a sexy look with his shirt open to show off his chest and abs, dressed in about as sexy clothes as you can dress a guy in, nobody blinks. Girls - because of historic reasons - jump onto the girl with the rack out. I get that, but I do think that SE are actually pretty fair. Which brings us to...!

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Attractive males: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 29
Unattractive males: |||||||||||||||| 16
Attractive females: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25
Unattractive females: ||| 3

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Three? Really? You're not even counting Penelo? >_>; And who are all these unattractive males!? I'd like to see the breakdown of this list someday. :p I might even go through the list myself and state who I think is attractive and who I think is unattractive. In the end, personal perspective makes a big difference. I could even include sexy, but it's hard for me to define sexy in a man without assistance. :S I can only go by the "This is what girls find sexy... right?" kind of method if I'm doing it on my own. Basch wins, by the way. ;) But seriously, more than anything the note of too few elderly ladies raised my eyebrow. I never really think of the guys as that elderly but I guess there are a few. Were they mostly in the older games? I wish they'd bring in more elderly characters (not geriatric, but you get the idea) in modern FF's.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Sorry, I'm one of "those people" who doesn't believe in doing more than just believing. How're you gonna come at me as one of "those people" who thinks calling an outfit stupid is too much effort and then preach at me about doing more and "believing"? I'm the one who's speaking out against stupid sexist bulltrout here. I'm the one with my boob exposed in public because I will not be sent to a booth or wear an uncomfortable blanket to feed my kid. How about you try doing more than just "believing," like just smurfing acknowledging that Cidney's outfit is sexually objectifying and that is a problem? Even if you still like the series and the game and the character, that outfit is trout for more reasons than it just being ugly.

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Like I say - I don't mind sexualising of fictional characters. I simply don't. I don't know what more to say on that. Goes for guys and girls. I do have a problem with people saying "This is what you should wear in the real world" but thankfully I never do that to anyone and I have no problem with girls in the real world wearing whatever the hell they want, and do my best to never judge them for it. ...with the possible exception of Lady Gaga. Don't wear meat. =|

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I'll give you a hint: simple things like saying "Hey, I don't appreciate the cheap pandering of a mechanic in a nonsensical costume for the sake of being sexy" is participating in the solution.

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Quite simply, I don't mind either way. They could make her wear coveralls and that's fine. They could make her wear a boiler suit, I'd be okay with that, too. They could make her wear what she's wearing now and I'll shrug. They could make her wear a gigantic marshmallow suit that makes her look like a moogle and I would just roll my eyes and go "Oh, SE." I just don't mind what people in fictional stories are wearing, and I've never been the kind of guy to say something that is a lie. I don't "appreciate" cheap pandering, but I "accept and quite frankly don't care about" cheap pandering provided it's a fictional character and it is done to each gender. I suppose I'd prefer it if there were a healthy mix of extremely sexy and most definitely not sexy characters. Get a bloke with a beer gut in there. He could be a mage or a gunner if it doesn't fly with their "but fat people can't run around with a sword" or something (but again, since when did they care about realistic outfits/bodies for jobs?).

If it went to the lengths of a game like Dead or Alive, I probably wouldn't like it. If the makers of Dead or Alive want to make that kind of game, power to them. All girls, all sexualised to the maximum. It's not for me. Cidney? Eh, one character, sexualised to about 90%, I don't mind. I see worse when walking around a hot city. Absurd for the job? Par for the course. SE likes doing that. I don't know why. But I don't get upset over it anymore, not since Tidus.

Anyway, to summarise the tl;dr of it all... :sleepy:

Things we seemingly don't agree on...
- That it's okay to sexualise an individual character for no other reason than to sexualise that individual character.
- That guys get sexualised about as much as they can be.
- That more old girls or "unattractive" people in general could be a very good thing for Final Fantasy.
- More body shapes within Final Fantasy would be a nice thing.
- That Final Fantasy should change to compensate for the rest of the industry, who are often considerably worse offenders.

Things I believe and am not sure if you agree on...
- That you shouldn't sexualise one gender if you're not going to sexualise the other one, too.
- That almost every guy in modern Final Fantasy has an attractive "fit/healthy" body type (ie, no fatties, although a couple of skinnies are probably in there like Hope).
- That guys get absurd outfits too in Final Fantasy.
- Sometimes the above happens for the sake of sexualisation over any relevant reasoning.

Things I'm pretty sure we agree on!
- The Cidney outfit is absurd and stupid for the job she is in.
- It does sexualise her, and that is probably the intention of the outfit.
- Video games in general sexualise females far more than they sexualise males, which is not a good thing.
- Film and media do this too.