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Thank you, Captain!!!
Finally, someone whose opinion supports something I've always wanted to believe...
But really, the only way to know for sure would be for someone to ask Hironobu Sakaguchi and the other writers. If they even considered FFVII's plot to the same extent that we have...
Jenova is actually an alien, as in the reference to the 'Crisis from the Sky'. It was the thing that led to the end of the cetra sans Ifalna and Aeris. It was not created by the Shinra.Quote:
Jenova is not male nor female just a monster created by shinra, Sephiroth weared clothes in the end fight because it was more of a dream thing even though it was the real Sephiroth Cloud fights.
Right, Sephiroth's Mate, your theory is flawed from the get-go. As Zeikfried said, Sephiroth was injected directly in the womb.
And Big D, I bet the the writers didn't consider the story to the depth we, the fans, have. We'd all probably be surprised how they would react to our theories and such. They'd most likely think we were all crazy and try to flee.
I'm convinced that the story we are told is it. There is no hidden or underlying meaning. We are meant to beleive what we are told, speculating and theorizing all these unprovable points is silly. Above all else, FFVII is a story told to us. What we see in the conclusion of each story point is it. There is no more. Everything that is meant to be revealed...is.
All these unsupported "Cloud was experimented on since birth" and "Jenova was the real villain" are simply not concluded in the course of the story. We learn indefinately how Cloud came t obe considered a Sephiroth "clone" and we are told continuously to the very end of the story that it's Sephiroth we are after.
And that's all there is to it, really.
All hail Captain, the voice of reason amidst the babble of confusion, doubt and Raistlin's conspiracy theories.:D
That's the real Sephiroth. Square just didn't feel like making a new, shirtless polygon model just for that one scene.Quote:
Originally posted by Big D
...even right at the end, before the fight against Bizarro-Sephiroth, the party is faced by the same 'form' of Sephiroth that they were chasing all along. Why continue the pretense? Why bother with it at all?
I always have believed Jenova was the main villain.
Yes, Sephiroth could have fought against her influence. I believe that he did not for one reason only: he believed everything she said.
He went insane when he found out that he was "created." He believed Jenova was his mother. He was vulnerable. Jenova talked to him in his deluded state, filling his head with lies. One of the books, I believe, mentions that the scientists at first speculated that Jenova was an Ancient. She told him that too, and that he must help kill the "traitors," which was basically everyone else on the Planet.
Which is the reason Sephiroth didn't "snap out of it" when Jenova was killed. She didn't need to mentally control Sephiroth with her powers; he believed that she was his mother, and he'd obey.
You just proved my point. Indeed, Sephiroth was insane and did think Jenova to be his mother. But you stated it perfectly. Even after Jenova was killed, Sephiroth was still crazy. He was driven by his insane thoughts that Jenova wanted him to take over the Planet for her. Whether she "tells" him this or not is unknown, but it's not alluded to in the story.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
Which is the reason Sephiroth didn't "snap out of it" when Jenova was killed. She didn't need to mentally control Sephiroth with her powers; he believed that she was his mother, and he'd obey.
So basically, in the end, Sephiroth was working under his own power whilst utilizing Jenova's power to achieve, as he percieved it, "their" goals.
thats what ive been sayin but i jus dont think jenova was pullin all the strings. i think seph was doin the thinkin behind the ideas of his own will
oh and something else has been brught to my attention by a friend which has confused me profoundly.
hojo and lucrecia are sephiroths real parents. but sephiroth is about 26 or something like that (according to what cloud says in the lifestream) but vincent was having an affair with lucrecia whilst she was married to hojo. (thats why he was shot and experimented on) howver in the manual it says vincents age as 30 (or there abouts)
so if seph is 26 his parents would be around 50 at the least. but this means that vince was having an affair with a woman 2? year old woman at the age of 4.
now im really confused. but anyway my mate due to this reckons their was a third seph somewhere (other than the jenova one and lucrecia and hojos son) and that really lost me as he was unable to explain this fully to me.
so if someone understands please explain this in nice small understandable steps for me
Vincent was 26 when he was put away after uncovering Hojo's affair with Lucrecia (who was never married to anyone, by the way). Thirty years went by before Cloud woke Vincent up, but since his body didn't age while he was confined, his age is still listed as 26 even though it's technically more like 56. Sephiroth must be about 30, since it was thirty years ago that Hojo and Lucrecia had the affair that got Vincent put away.
I think Sephiroth did everything in the game willingly. However, no, I did not prove your point, Captain. You think Sephiroth was just using Jenova; I believe he deffered to her.
He was still insanse, which allowed Jenova to manipulate his mind. Manipulate, not control, convincing him of lies.
Why else would he fully believe Jenova was his mother, the others were "traitors to the Cetra/Planet," and then go to immediately free his "mother?" Someone must've been telling him something.
the manual says vince to be thirty not 26 and also cloud says seph to be about 26 and not thirty. also you say thirty years ago lucrecia had an affair with hojo and that got vincent put away. however im pretty sure it was vince and lucrecia that had the affair.
Well, my manual says Vincent is 27, though Kishi pretty much cleared up why it said that.
And Cloud only said that Sephiroth was 'older' than he is, and he was only a boy when he told Tifa he wanted to be just like him. So if Sephiroth was old enough to be in the news back then, he'd be quite a bit older now.
You seem to forget that Sephiroth got all his info from somewhat misleading reports in the Shin-Ra Mansion basement. No one had to tell him anything. After he made the connection that he was created, he researched it and the conclusion he reached drove him mad, to the point where he beleived that the creature known as "Jenova" was his real mother. Aside from that, Sephiroth was told that someone named Jenova was his mother long before he went insane. He mentions this as soon as they reach Nibelheim in the flashback.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
I think Sephiroth did everything in the game willingly. However, no, I did not prove your point, Captain. You think Sephiroth was just using Jenova; I believe he deffered to her.
He was still insanse, which allowed Jenova to manipulate his mind. Manipulate, not control, convincing him of lies.
Why else would he fully believe Jenova was his mother, the others were "traitors to the Cetra/Planet," and then go to immediately free his "mother?" Someone must've been telling him something.
So a combination of half-truths and misleading old reports is what drove Sephiroth. Not some mental urging from Jenova herself. He reached his own conclusions about himself, why Cloud and Humanity were "traitors" and why he considered Jenova his mother. Then he set out to claim what he thought was his, since he thought Jenova was an ancient (misleading reports) he also construed that he was one too (also not true).
Why would Sephiroth be in charge? It doesn't make sense.
Jenova is a millenia old super powerful alien being. Capable of surviving journeys through space, crashing into planets, being hacked to pieces. She has the ability to change her form, she can survive as one being despite being spread across the planet. She has the power to manipulate people all over the world simultaneously.
Sephiroth is quite strong, and only because he has a tiny amount of Jenova in him.
Why would Jenova in any way do what Sephiroth wanted her to?
[q=Phoenix 17]Why would Jenova in any way do what Sephiroth wanted her to?[/q]
I don't think Jenova was under Sephiroth's control, but liekwise I don't believe that she was directly controlling him, either.
Jenova spent years imprisoned by Shinra, was dismembered and used for experiments. She was obviously incapacitated.
I stand by my belief that Sephiroth thought he was acting of his own free will, that he was doing what he thought would give him and his mother the power they craved. He was going to make himself into a 'God', not her. A combination of Jenova's malevolence and power, combined with human greed and pride, and the brief but mistaken belief in his Cetra superiority meant that Sehpiroth was one of the more dangerous threats.
Most of Jenova's power came only from illusions and psychic manipulation.