That's it, I've decided to become a vegetarian.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

man, who cares? eat whatever you want to eat, be healthy or not. trying to convince people to stop being stupid is a fool's errand. don't waste your energy.

and stop flaming each other.

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:thumb: What I was trying to say

[leeza]Do not moderate posts. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

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Originally Posted by ShunNakamura

*cracks knuckles*

I will so have fun with this.

You say we are meant to be herbivores because of our body build. I say we are meant to be omnivores because we exhibit builds from all three(pure meat, pure omnivore, pure vegetarian). We are not one of them, we are all three. Humans are highly versitile. That is how we ended up where we are. We can live nearly anywhere. And we can eat a little bit of everything and live adequetly.

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Humans have none of the distinguishing anatomical characteristics that either carnivores or even natural omnivores do.

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Now looking at our teeth. Humans have some meat cutting teeth. Not as prominent as other species, but bear in mind the percentage of meet in our diet isn't specified as high as theirs. But we also have the flat molars whereas many meateaters don't. Why? Perhaps cause we eat both? We chew instead of gulp... well I guess psyc could have programed us to gulp meat and chew plants.. but why not always chew so no mistake is made? The enzymes in the mouth being aimed at plants. Plants take longer to digest so it makes sense to start as fast as possible. Meat breaks up quickly and thus you want to be ready to absorb before breaking it down, so in other words after you are done chewing. All of it makes sense to me.

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Meat is not passed through the intestines or the colon quick enough so that it does not have a chance to decay and you do not have the chance to absorb harmful bacteria and toxins. The undigestible plant matter is not harmful to you it is actually good for you.

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No claws? who says we were meant to take down bison? Last I checked two of the healthiest meats for people are fish and small poultry. And you know what? We dont' need claws to take them down. A good comparsion are dog nails. Dogs eat small animals(mostly rabits and such but they will eat poultry) but do you know how much damage thier nails actually do? Nothing that is what. I have even had a wild species of dog(the NGSD) with uncut nails, claw me up.. no more damage then long grown out human nails do. Dogs I know need meat in thier diet and thier nails won't kill anything(generally) so our weak nails isn't teastament for not being a meat eater.

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Dogs jaws and teeth are strong enough to take down their prey yours are not.

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Now as a last bit I will actually cite some evidence, unlike some.




Also this site(I haven't read all of it yet) seems to be a good source. Dunno what its conclusion is yet though.

I don't care if you argue whether you should eat it now or even if it is unheathy to eat it processed. But to say our bodies aren't built for it is an absurbity that I can not believe one would make.

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If you'd much prefer to hear the facts from somewhere else then fine, you can look here.http://www.animalvoices.org/vegetarian.htm

meat is yummy yummy for my tummy!

well. I never eat sea food. but cuttin out meat altogether... hmmm.. well my mum cooks all my food so it wont be too hard. I don't really feel like it though

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Originally Posted by ShunNakamura

We have evolved beyond it, eh? Well how come a few will get sick from a purely veg diet? It ain't the majority but I have seen some who suffered from it.

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No person can get ill due to cutting meat out of their diet as ive said before there is no nutrient in meat that cannot be obtained from a vegetarian diet. That is a FACT. And have you not heard of BSE? There are no lethal diseases killing vegetarians due to not eating meat. But theres a disease that can kill you because of consuming it.

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Many dog people I have spoken with say that dogs have evolved beyond needing large amounts of real meat in thier diets. And while many can easily survive that way, some will get dreadfully sick. Put them on a meat rich diet and viola they are fine health wise for the most part. Which is evidence enough in my eyes that dogs are supposed to eat meat, and I see this in some people as well.

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As ive already said you won't get ill because you don't eat meat.Ive already explained why above. Humans do not have a carnivore physiology if we had to eat meat then we would have.

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If we have evolved beyond that, why is fish still considered such a healthy food? It does alot of good for us. Pretty much the same with poultry.

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Vegetables are considered healthy but that doesn't mean that every life form is going to evolve to eat them.

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So basically,

Yes many can live on it.. but the fact that some get sick when they don't eat meat and the fact that our bodies and the like seem to be geared towards at least some meat consumption and that our closest realitives(or at least one of them) has some meat in thier diet seems to be a good incentive that we aren't truely evolved beyond that.

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I don't think I need to comment on the getting sick as ive already done it once in this post already. And no our bodies are not geared towards meat consumption compare the physiology of a human to a natural omnivore, carnivore, or herbivore and you'll find we are far more typical of a herbivore.

Fight against the cruelty of the factories if you like, but just remember that cruel factories != meat eating. Trying to convert everyone to vegetarianism to fight the factories is hardly the best way to go about that task. Not to mention I don't care for the way you all(generalizing since I have seen many do it) go about it.

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We are not trying to convert everyone into a vegetarian we are well aware that we would be wasting our time. We don't expect you all to wake up with a conscience for what your doing anytime in the near future, distant future, or even at all.

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edit ShinNakamura; There was a reason our neandrathal ancestors had a gall bladder, an appendix, and sharp eye teeth. It was to aid the process of eatong meat, no doubt. But we've evolved boyond that, and we no longer require meat in our diet.

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Wrong. Your appendix is, thought to be, the organ that would have produced cellulase to digest plants better. It is inherited from our herbivore ancestors and is now pretty much useless as the appendix seems to do nothing but get infected now-a-days. Thus it would be conclusive to say that we have evolved into omnivores rather than evolved away from eating meat.

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Originally Posted by Anaisa

We are not trying to convert everyone into a vegetarian we are well aware that we would be wasting our time. We don't expect you all to wake up with a conscience for what your doing anytime in the near future, distant future, or even at all.

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Makes sense. So you're not saying, "This is evil, and you should stop," only "this is evil, and we just wanted to let you know." Of course you're better than us because you don't eat meat, who would question that? You are caring and compassionate, while us evil meat-eaters are bloodthirsty and inhumane. Happy now? Good, now drop it.

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Originally Posted by The Jamie Star Scenario

Wrong. Your appendix is, thought to be, the organ that would have produced cellulase to digest plants better. It is inherited from our herbivore ancestors and is now pretty much useless as the appendix seems to do nothing but get infected now-a-days. Thus it would be conclusive to say that we have evolved into omnivores rather than evolved away from eating meat.

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Except that's nothing but a theory. And our ancestors weren't herbivores, in any case. Even Australopithecus, existing almsot 4.2 million years ago, scavenged for meat (and only scavenged because humans are too weak to kill their own prey without tools). So, y'know, what you're saying doesn't really work.

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It is inherited from our herbivore ancestors

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They had sharp teeth, made tools for killing and cutting animals, used fire to cook meat... I'd say they were meat-eaters, if anything. That is, not to say they didn't plants too - just that they did, beyond any doubt, eat meat.

Look back further. Hebrivores > carnivores > omnivores.

My boyfriend has become a vegetarian. The folks at PETA got to him, and now all he does is preach about how wrong it is to eat meat.

I tell him to shut up because I can't hear myself chew my steak.

Chaos

Gah.. Now that I look back at my post I realize I mentioned linking the site but never did... Go shun?

You say we aren't omnivores? Science says we are-

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Originally Posted by http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

Evidence of Humans as Omnivores
Archeological Record

As far back as it can be traced, clearly the archeological record indicates an omnivorous diet for humans that included meat. Our ancestry is among the hunter/gatherers from the beginning. Once domestication of food sources began, it included both animals and plants.
Cell Types

Relative number and distribution of cell types, as well as structural specializations, are more important than overall length of the intestine to determining a typical diet. Dogs are typical carnivores, but their intestinal characteristics have more in common with omnivores. Wolves eat quite a lot of plant material.
Fermenting Vats

Nearly all plant eaters have fermenting vats (enlarged chambers where foods sits and microbes attack it). Ruminants like cattle and deer have forward sacs derived from remodeled esophagus and stomach. Horses, rhinos, and colobine monkeys have posterior, hindgut sacs. Humans have no such specializations.
Jaws

Although evidence on the structure and function of human hands and jaws, behavior, and evolutionary history also either support an omnivorous diet or fail to support strict vegetarianism, the best evidence comes from our teeth.

The short canines in humans are a functional consequence of the enlarged cranium and associated reduction of the size of the jaws. In primates, canines function as both defense weapons and visual threat devices. Interestingly, the primates with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets. In archeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken for those of human teeth when found in archeological excavations.
Salivary Glands

These indicate we could be omnivores. Saliva and urine data vary, depending on diet, not taxonomic group.
Intestines

Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. We are intermediate between the two groups.
Conclusion

Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns.

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And here is the page I meant to link earlier http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-1a.shtml


Now as for other responses

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Originally Posted by anaisa

Dogs jaws and teeth are strong enough to take down their prey yours are not.

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First I must ask what is human prey? I am of the mind it is small birds(poultry) and fish. Both of which we have strong enough hands and jaws to take apart. You only need the tools to take down your prey. We don't need dog jaws because we have other means of taking down our prey. What about primates? They eat meat(at least some of them do) they can take down thier prey with out dog jaws and teeth?

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Originally Posted by anaisa

Vegetables are considered healthy but that doesn't mean that every life form is going to evolve to eat them.

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Yes but they are healthy to humans, just as fish is. Fish is really really good for humans. Health wise I have been told I would be less ill if I were to eat more fish and poultry. Wrestling coaches I have been with put people on poultry-fish diets to maintain strength. Actually they told me not to eat red meat cause it would be a deterent to my strength. And in wrestling your goal is to be as strong as humanly possible. So why wouldn't they put you on a pure vegen diet if that was best?

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Originally Posted by anaisa

As ive already said you won't get ill because you don't eat meat.Ive already explained why above. Humans do not have a carnivore physiology if we had to eat meat then we would have.

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Well tell that to the doctors and physcians that I have heard say that.
Vitimin B12 is difficult to maintain on pure plants. And was supposedly impossible in earlier times, thus that is more evidence that we are omnivores by nature. Now we have supplements and enriched veggies that take care of the deficiency but you still have to be sure you get it. Else wise you may get sick, it may take you 20+ years to display any harm but it can still happen. Some get sick from lack of b12 in a years time. Not to mention other things that humans obtain from meat naturally and don't need enriched foods or supplements or current tech and the like for.

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Originally Posted by anaisa

Humans have none of the distinguishing anatomical characteristics that either carnivores or even natural omnivores do.

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Many primates are omnivores.... we have similar traits to them no? We also have cababilities to digest both meat and plants thus making it fairly obvious we are omnivores by nature.


And yes I have read your site. However, I don't trust it due to it being A) against most scientific evidence I have read and studies I have read from sources I know to be realiable.
B) Just like in most cases evidence can go either way. Meaning you can suit evidence for us being omni, carni, or vegi. So if the site is to be realiabe it must mention that we display similarities to all of them and that the facts can go either way. And they must give kudos to thier oposition. I am in Comp I and we are taught that any paper that doesn't discuss or at least mention the opponnents points and or strenghts is not a paper that should be heeded. Once again... It is simply I do not feel the source is something to trust. The sight above I trust more then others because it comes accross as more accurate(even though some of what it and the site it is on says kinda isn't what I would prefer to hear).

Actually, if we ate only meat, but many different kinds of meat (as carnivores do), we would survive just fine, as we could get any and all needed nutrients. As I mentioned before, the liver alone contains more nutrients, vitamins, and minerals than you could imagine. Sure, we'd have some problems, just like if we tried living off plant matter alone, but we could pull it off just as easily.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Makes sense. So you're not saying, "This is evil, and you should stop," only "this is evil, and we just wanted to let you know." Of course you're better than us because you don't eat meat, who would question that? You are caring and compassionate, while us evil meat-eaters are bloodthirsty and inhumane. Happy now? Good, now drop it.

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Yes I do think its evil and should stop and I will say so. You will attempt to slate vegetarians knowing that your not going to convert us all to meat eating but you continue to try and do so. I do not think by me saying how bad meat eating is that it will change the mind of someone who is strongly for eating meat. What frequently does tho is when these meat eaters visit a slaughter house. Ive even spoken to several butchers who are vegetarians! Who have said to me that once they saw first hand what goes on with the meat they didn't want to eat it anymore. And no I won't drop it. Why should I? your speaking for your cause and im speaking for mine.

I do not think anyone is trying to convert vegetarians to meat eaters, I know I wasn't. I was just highlighting the fact that all the arguements for becoming a vegetarain-like better diet and we are actually herbivores and that is why most humans eats both meat and veg.-are fundementally flawed. The only good arguement is because you want to eat only vegetable, not some daft science reason or that eating animals is cruel.

Anyway, this is so off topic, why hasn't this been closed yet?