FF:VII Advent Children - Opinions Thread

Why are we arguing??? Final Fantasy VII:AC no matter who/what/when/how it resembles something else is still the best movie I have seen since Matrix graced the local cinema screen... I am life-long avid FF fan and I ~still~ vibrate at high speeds just thinking about going home and watching it...

Stop knocking it and doing the whole petty squabble thing and just sit back, whack the tv up to full blast, grab some popcorn and bask in the computer-rendered godliness that is Advent Children...

You know ya wanna :P

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Okay, so riddle me this: since square seemed to be emulating the wuxia formula all throughout the show (huge leaps that seem like flying, chi blasts and exaggerated feats fo skill and strength) how would a mechanic and street thug turned cyborg have the training to leap higher then cloud, who couldnt himself leap that high, who supposedly is the most well trained of the group?

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Ignoring the fact that "chi blasts" are nonexistent in the world of FFVII, as it follows its own mythology, rather than something imposed by "our world," there's no evidence that Barret or Cid outjumps Cloud. In all likelihood, they reached their heights through a series of smaller jumps. This shouldn't be surprising, given the substantial amount of leaping going on during that scene. Moreover, "training" has nothing to do with the leaps; anything "superhuman" like that would be the result of the physical expression of one's inherent Spirit Energy.

Ultimately, by hurling Cloud upward, they allowed him to get higher than any of them (cloud obviously included) could have reached without assistance.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Yuffie is a trained ninja, which implies that she is versed in combat techniques, highly physically conditioned, and likely versed in the use of chi to enhance her abilities. Cid is a mechanic and pilot, Barrett is a street gang leader and cyborg. Neither is likely to have any knowledge of chi, and its doubtful either could leap the distance of their own head, much less several stories. As for climbing, well Ive already covered that angle. Not only would they have time, but what the hell would they climb to get that high? somehow amidst the wreckage I doubt they found a working escalator. Though we're talking about a film where kids swim in and drink from diarrhea polluted water to gain superhuman leaping abilities while one of their best friends is held hostage in front of them. So I guess compared to that the thought of a working escalator going several stories isnt such a stretch is it?

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Yuffie is a trained ninja, which implies...nothing of what you suggested. Again, you are attempting to interpose the fantastical standards of a different mythology on FFVII. Just because you claim the fighting is derivative of wuxia does not mean that FFVII is bound by "chi" and the like. Extraordinary ability (that ability far beyond normal human limitations) is a result of Spirit Energy--the supernatural--rather than any normal training, anyway.

I've explained the matter of the children before, both as regards the plot and certain symbolic elements. You can choose to disagree with the construction and/or presentation of the plot, but you don't help your case by simply disregarding it. You might say, "the plot as presented is weak," or perhaps, "the way the story is unveiled is needlessly esoteric, especially for those unversed in the FFVII mythos," but you prove nothing by misrepresenting and/or misunderstanding it.

As to the matter of Cloud exceeding level 99, the other characters being at that point, and the Turks being below it, try to conceptualize the notion without viewing it in absolute quantitative terms. Obviously, a numerical component derivative of defeated monsters wouldn't make sense in light of a non-RPG structured battle. Think of it simply as "Cloud is more powerful than the other party members, who are in turn more powerful than the Turks." If one associates a high level, however, with powerful Spirit Energy and/or significant combat experience, it helps to explain why they are so capable.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

. But the films biggest sin, the absolute worst thing they did with the film is have Aerieth come back. Her in game death helped make the story feel a bit more serious and personal (and believe me, FFVII needed all the help it could get in that regard). Bringing her back in a physical sense, where she helps impact the living world was a huge mistake. She's DEAD people, get over it. But it appears that Square is applying the single absolute rule of marvel comics to the FFVII universe as well, "only Bucky stays dead". Having her coucil cloud on his self destructive mood swings, cure the geostigma, resurrect cloud, and tend to sick children at the end was all the most contrived and fanboyish piece of writing Ive seen in a long time.

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You seem to neglect the rather salient fact that, in spite of everything, Aeris is still dead. Her ability to intercede in the material affairs of Gaia was implied in the ending of FFVII--she can help the Planet even in death, as she seems to embody the will of the Lifestream. It would have been ridiculous, I completely agree, to even consider resurrecting Aeris. However, allowing her to spiritually intercede is at least appropriate both with regards to the FFVII mythology, and the symbolism intrinsic to both the original game and the movie itself.

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

You seem to neglect the rather salient fact that, in spite of everything, Aeris is still dead. Her ability to intercede in the material affairs of Gaia was implied in the ending of FFVII--she can help the Planet even in death, as she seems to embody the will of the Lifestream. It would have been ridiculous, I completely agree, to even consider resurrecting Aeris. However, allowing her to spiritually intercede is at least appropriate both with regards to the FFVII mythology, and the symbolism intrinsic to both the original game and the movie itself.

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Spiritually intercede my butt. She physically intercedes most of the damn time. She is at least partially responsible for curing the geostigma, she throws cloud through the giga flare (a scene that literally made me stop the film to wait for my throbbing temples to cease aching), she resurrects him, tends to sick and ailing children. That goes way beyond spiritual involvement.

As for the rest, and why Im not copying and pasting now

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Just because you claim the fighting is derivative of wuxia does not mean that FFVII is bound by "chi" and the like. Extraordinary ability (that ability far beyond normal human limitations) is a result of Spirit Energy--the supernatural--

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I officially declare this discussion between you and myself over until you at lest go do a google search on "Chi". You dont realize it, but in that sentence you actually ended up contradicting yourself quite substantially. I refuse to engage in any sort of discussion with someone who unknowingly contradicts himself this excessively in a sentence. Its rather unfair of myself to do so I believe. Though I am going to email that quote to those in my tai chi chuan class, I think they will find it rather amusing.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Its not that I"m not reading your posts. We're both doing the same thing. You keep saying "it borrowed from wuxia, so it should live by wuxian rules" where I keep saying it's a movie based on a video game, that has its own rules for empowerment that don't abide by wuxia lore. The only similarity is that they can use their power to do super-human feats. But the key difference is, that because the game involved a diverse crew, not just masters of martial arts are granted these powers. That's it. As long as you keep saying "But they can't do this because..." I'll keep following up with "But they can do this, and they did do this, because..." But really, if you hate the movie so much, why bother with it so much?

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Personally, its not the emulation I mind, its the fact that its so half assed. you cant just take bits and pieces, blatantly emulate a genre, and then decide at certain plot points your not going to pay attention anymore. Its contradictory to the story your writing. Every story, regardless of genre, should have a good flow. If they wanted to emulate wuxia and anime, then fine. Hunky dory, I like em both so go knock yourselves out. But both genre's have rules, and if they wanted to throw it a bit of a different mythology in there, fine go ahead. I like shows like gargoyles and babylon 5 because they successfully involve different mythologies respectfully and dont cancel out other plot or the seperate mythologies that are included, established, or refferrenced in doing so. The writers and creators gave a crap and actually thought out everything so that wouldnt happen.

The problem with barrett and cid, or at least the problem I have with them getting higher then cloud did is that in no storytelling context dealt with in game, in the movie, or applicable by the genre's square was emulating or including (such as the refferrences to norse mythologies) are these characters capable of getting that high on their own physical or spiritual exertions. I can understand everyone else doing so due to storytelling concepts that have been mentioned in the past, but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so. And no, the whole level 99 thing doesnt count as a storytelling concept. A gameplay concept yes, and if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Spiritually intercede my butt. She physically intercedes most of the damn time. She is at least partially responsible for curing the geostigma, she throws cloud through the giga flare (a scene that literally made me stop the film to wait for my throbbing temples to cease aching), she resurrects him, tends to sick and ailing children. That goes way beyond spiritual involvement.

As for the rest, and why Im not copying and pasting now




I officially declare this discussion between you and myself over until you at lest go do a google search on "Chi". You dont realize it, but in that sentence you actually ended up contradicting yourself quite substantially. I refuse to engage in any sort of discussion with someone who unknowingly contradicts himself this excessively in a sentence. Its rather unfair of myself to do so I believe. Though I am going to email that quote to those in my tai chi class, I think they will find it rather humorous.

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The first part I have no problem with, aside from the fact that you got worked up enough over a movie that you had to stop it. (WTF?)

As for the second part, his point is that you are inferring that "chi", something of our own mythos, has to be taken into account when talking about the fictional fighting styles of fictional characters in a fictional world. If you don't like the characters or the story or the fact that Aerith plays a direct role.. That's fine, cause I agree with you on alot of those points. But, you aren't arguing that. You're arguing technicalities of a fantasy story. One that, while mimicing wuxia to a degree, makes it's own rules when it comes to spirituality and power. That's a losing battle, as all your arguments are focused existing mythology and techniques that aren't necessarily going to apply to a fictional world.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Personally, its not the emulation I mind, its the fact that its so half assed. you cant just take bits and pieces, blatantly emulate a genre, and then decide at certain plot points your not going to pay attention anymore. Its contradictory to the story your writing. Every story, regardless of genre, should have a good flow. If they wanted to emulate wuxia and anime, then fine. Hunky dory, I like em both so go knock yourselves out. But both genre's have rules, and if they wanted to throw it a bit of a different mythology in there, fine go ahead. I like shows like gargoyles and babylon 5 because they successfully involve different mythologies respectfully and dont cancel out other plot or the seperate mythologies that are included, established, or refferrenced in doing so. The writers and creators gave a crap and actually thought out everything so that wouldnt happen.

The problem with barrett and cid, or at least the problem I have with them getting higher then cloud did is that in no storytelling context dealt with in game, in the movie, or applicable by the genre's square was emulating or including (such as the refferrences to norse mythologies) are these characters capable of getting that high on their own physical or spiritual exertions. I can understand everyone else doing so due to storytelling concepts that have been mentioned in the past, but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so. And no, the whole level 99 thing doesnt count as a storytelling concept. A gameplay concept yes, and if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.

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Firstly, again, this is a fantasy story, so they can take bits and pieces and ignore the rest, if they so choose to. Sure, it may be lazy, but it's there decision.

Secondly, while I agree with Barret.. Cid had a "Jump" type limit break, as he was FF7's lancer. So, his ability is actually in the game. Barret.. I make no excuses there.

Personally, I agree with you that it was lazy filmwork. But at the same time, it was there decision. You can choose to enjoy the movie for what it is, just a 'For the fans" flick.. Or ignore it. All this arguing over technicalities is pointless. On both sides.

You people take this crap to seriously.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.

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...What?

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

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...What?

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Yeah.. You do realize that this, while being a movie, is a continuation of the game.. Thus technically making it a 90 minute FMV.. Hell, it starts off with the last FMV of the game.

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but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so

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I am really interested to know what the storyline tell you about them or what you expect them to do in the movie.

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Originally Posted by CHI

The vital force believed in Taoism and other Chinese thought to be inherent in all things. The unimpeded circulation of chi and a balance of its negative and positive forms in the body are held to be essential to good health in traditional Chinese medicine.

n 1: the circulating life energy that in Chinese philosophy is thought to be inherent in all things; in traditional Chinese medicine the balance of negative and positive forms in the body is believed to be essential for good health

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什 么 ?

Easy, how bout having those two perform some sort of distracting pattern, use their abilities in different ways to combat bahamut or perhaps giving reno and rude a hand in fighting the seph twins. When I originally read about the design of the three new villains, I assumed the battle would be Vincent, barrett, and Red XIII vs gunblade wielding dude, since these three have abilities more well suited to combat a quick, distance attack oriented combatant, and Tifa, Yuffie, and Cid would fight Loz since these three are the more physical oriented combatants. while cloud fought against Kadaj. This sticks with the whole, cloud is most powerful formula the game at least wants you to believe. of course all our hero's would win, but be wounded in some way leading to a ultimate showdown with sephiroth in which there would a be a dramatic, against all odds battle where teamwork, sacrifice, and blood would be the order of the day. But would still fail against sephs awesome might resulting in some sort of miricle (aerieth rejuvenating the party somehow perhaps) that would result in their triumph, but not before seph got his licks in and made his pressence felt.

the model Ive described isnt anything ive thought up really, its a model that cinema and comics has been using for years (X-men in particular has used this model repeatedly throughout the years). The film wanted us to believe that the seph clones were ultra powerful, this model would have lead us to see it. The film wants us to believe that sephiroth is nigh a god, the miracle (which could take any form the writers choose) would prove that seph could and did wipe the floor with our hero's, and it required a miracle for them to come out on top. But just going the route of cloud doing all the work, everyone else doing their Iron monkey impression to help out, even if it doesnt make a damn lick of sense to do so, Its just as derivative, and make's no sense.

Yes, it was the writers choice to be so half assed about the plot, and thus they deserve to take their licks about it. Action scenes that look good on a presentation format isnt enough. Ive seen enough of this stuff that to capture my attention, the storytelling has to make sense. even if not espescially in the fight scenes. maybe to those to whole jean claude and steven segal are the pinnacle of martial arts film making think this film is just fine, but Ive seen better almost all my life, and know that square as a company is capable of doing better then this on a storytelling basis. Just because Nomura was heading up the project, and good moviemaking failed them once before doesnt exscuse this piece of storytelling rubbish.

Firstly, I enjoy Steven Seagal movies solely for Steven Seagal, second I enjoyed this movie solely for the fight scenes. I honestly didn't give a crap about the story when watching it. People had been saying stuff about the geostigma or whatever before the movie and I didn't care, I just wanted to see all the fighting. I enjoyed watching it, and that's all that matters

THE JACKEL

I didn't ready every reply in this thread - it would of taken forever.

I loved the movie, it was definatley worth waiting for it. Why complain about the amount of action though, seriously - what else do you expect? I do wish it was longer and had more story added in, though. :(

Yes, Jess knows it! Don't mess with Jess. Though it is a waist reading all because your reading all these valid points and Ishin questions it again making you annoyed. So no-ones blames you!

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Spiritually intercede my butt. She physically intercedes most of the damn time. She is at least partially responsible for curing the geostigma, she throws cloud through the giga flare (a scene that literally made me stop the film to wait for my throbbing temples to cease aching), she resurrects him, tends to sick and ailing children. That goes way beyond spiritual involvement.

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Spiritual intercession can involve the material here. The point is that Aeris was not revived. As she can, to a degree, direct the enormous power of the Lifestream allows for her to do certain things that even in her life would have been impossible.

Also note that she does not "throw [C]loud through" Bahamut TREMOR's energy flare. Aeris' apparition only appears once Cloud had begun travelling through the energy; there, the cut over his eye (which would seem to suggest withstanding the energy was difficult) was healed and Cloud moved to Bahamut relatively unimpeded. Given that Aeris acts with the very life and energy of the Planet, it doesn't seem all that ridiculous that Aeris' (read: the Lifestream's) abilities were able to accomplish this.

Also of note, as previously stated, is that Cloud was never resurrected or resuscitated in any way. If such was the case, Aeris herself could have returned. Cloud might have been near death, but his recovery was mere physical recovery--in the sense that he was injured, and was made to be healthy.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Just because you claim the fighting is derivative of wuxia does not mean that FFVII is bound by "chi" and the like. Extraordinary ability (that ability far beyond normal human limitations) is a result of Spirit Energy--the supernatural--

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I officially declare this discussion between you and myself over until you at lest go do a google search on "Chi". You dont realize it, but in that sentence you actually ended up contradicting yourself quite substantially. I refuse to engage in any sort of discussion with someone who unknowingly contradicts himself this excessively in a sentence. Its rather unfair of myself to do so I believe. Though I am going to email that quote to those in my tai chi chuan class, I think they will find it rather amusing.

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Dictionary.com has the following definition of "chi" (as pertains to this discussion):

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

The vital force believed in Taoism and other Chinese thought to be inherent in all things. The unimpeded circulation of chi and a balance of its negative and positive forms in the body are held to be essential to good health in traditional Chinese medicine.

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You'll note that chi is held to be a force inherent to "Taoism and other Chinese thought." As noted, this is irrelevant to Advent Children, a world where all spirituality rests on the inherent characteristics of Spirit Energy and the Lifestream. While there are certain conceptual similarities in the notions, you fail to recognize that what's important is how this notion (the Lifestream) is manifested. As I stated, it's ridiculous for you to suggest that Yuffie can perform "chi blasts," because a.) the power of the Lifestream does not manifest in such a way, and b.) any ninja on Gaia would not have to submit to any fantastical ninja abilities as based on the cultural views of our world.

In short, one cannot impose views of our world that pertain to the supernatural on the supernatural aspects of a seperate mythology. Please read more carefully.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Personally, its not the emulation I mind, its the fact that its so half assed. you cant just take bits and pieces, blatantly emulate a genre, and then decide at certain plot points your not going to pay attention anymore.

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Because their are some superficial artistic similarities to wuxia does not mean that Advent Children is bound by the exact same formula. In short, you can emulate a genre and diverge from it, so long as the movie isn't dependent upon the parameters of the genre. Advent Children isn't subject to wuxia stereotypes. As long as their is a reason for preternatural strength and speed, AC can resemble anything it likes without being held subject to genre formulas.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The problem with barrett and cid, or at least the problem I have with them getting higher then cloud did is that in no storytelling context dealt with in game, in the movie, or applicable by the genre's square was emulating or including (such as the refferrences to norse mythologies) are these characters capable of getting that high on their own physical or spiritual exertions. I can understand everyone else doing so due to storytelling concepts that have been mentioned in the past, but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so. And no, the whole level 99 thing doesnt count as a storytelling concept. A gameplay concept yes, and if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.

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Please read what I wrote in my previous post. Also, you're again trying to impose standards on a completely independent mythology.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Easy, how bout having those two perform some sort of distracting pattern, use their abilities in different ways to combat bahamut or perhaps giving reno and rude a hand in fighting the seph twins. When I originally read about the design of the three new villains, I assumed the battle would be Vincent, barrett, and Red XIII vs gunblade wielding dude, since these three have abilities more well suited to combat a quick, distance attack oriented combatant, and Tifa, Yuffie, and Cid would fight Loz since these three are the more physical oriented combatants. while cloud fought against Kadaj. This sticks with the whole, cloud is most powerful formula the game at least wants you to believe. of course all our hero's would win, but be wounded in some way leading to a ultimate showdown with sephiroth in which there would a be a dramatic, against all odds battle where teamwork, sacrifice, and blood would be the order of the day. But would still fail against sephs awesome might resulting in some sort of miricle (aerieth rejuvenating the party somehow perhaps) that would result in their triumph, but not before seph got his licks in and made his pressence felt.

the model Ive described isnt anything ive thought up really, its a model that cinema and comics has been using for years

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FFVII was intended specifically to defy these overused conventions. Here's something that Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase did say (since everyone seems interested in hearing from the creators of FFVII universe) concerning FFVII...

Nomura begins by examining the decision regarding Aeris' death.

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Originally Posted by Tetsuya Nomura

Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?

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Kitase follows by questioning the epic sacrifice formula.

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Originally Posted by Yoshinori Kitase

In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had knowni this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.

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Kitase then speaks regarding the decision to defy convention, as well as confirms the fact that Aeris was not meant to be revived (meaning such a reading of AC is incorrect).

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Originally Posted by Yoshinori Kitase

The world was expecting us to bring her back to life, as this is the classic convention. But we did not. We had decided this from the beginning. There was a lot of reaction from Japanese users. Some of them were very sad about it, while others were angry. We even received a lengthy petition addressed to our scenario writer asking for Aerith's revival. But there are many meanings in Aerith's death and that could never happen.

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While these statements pertain directly to Aeris' death, the reality here was that the two figures most instrumental to the Compilation of FFVII both express dismay with the trite notions repeatedly perpetuated in popular media. You assumed that such a set-up (Vincent, Barret, and Red--or rather Yuffie; I'm assuming that was a typo, and Tifa, Cid, and Yuffie (Red)) would take place, because you place stock in that classic formula. I do not mean to denigrate said formula, but it's absurd to fault a movie for not following an established pattern. The fights were all logical within their own context, and, moreover, more accurately submitted to the themes embodied in the original FFVII.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The film wanted us to believe that the seph clones were ultra powerful, this model would have lead us to see it.

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The SHM were ultra-powerful; Loz was able to easily defeat Tifa, Loz and Yazoo didn't even need to take the Turks seriously, and both were implied to be nowhere near as powerful as Kadaj.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The film wants us to believe that sephiroth is nigh a god, the miracle (which could take any form the writers choose) would prove that seph could and did wipe the floor with our hero's, and it required a miracle for them to come out on top.

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Here, the usual formula breaks down. Sloppy storytelling is just as easily embodied in random Deus ex Machina. This, then, would seem to apply to the idea of the "perennial cliché." There are certainly reasonable objections to the formula that was used--making Cloud extraordinarily powerful--but also note that your formula at least received the "mouth service" of having Cloud seemingly defeated before Sephiroth's final, fateful remark. That theme was the focus of the ending of the original trailer, and Cloud's reply, "everything is important to me," effectively sums up many of the themes of the movie and the FFVII universe. Finishing Seph off with Omnislash Version 5 also recalls the ending to FFVII. Really, especially given that fanservice was the primary intent of AC, this wasn't a horrible idea.

I initially replied to the other thread in an attempt to help clarify what happened in AC. You've chosen to ignore what's been explained, and while that's up to you, please realize why people are arguing with you. Your opinions are merely that: opinions.

The problem you seem to have with the movie is that you say that it copies off many Genre's, well OF COURSE, everyone copies off everyone else, bullettime has been copied repeatedly, Wuxia has been used in Crouching Tiger,Hero,Flying Daggers and many others, they even got a term for it in Hollywood, its called "wirefu", Chi has been used in most every anime I can think of, Its a FANTASY world, and whatever they can do is based on what the writers think up, and since it is a fantasy world I can see why they can jump so high, they jump high and do impossible things in the game, why not the movie, training in martial arts doesnt make you jump higher in real life, most martial arts in real life is just for show and wouldnt work in a real fight. Referring to the X-men they dont explain their powers the best either, uhhh, Ice man freezes the moisture in the air so he can freeze things, Spider man got bit by a "radioactive" spider, what!? in real life this cant happen, Peter Parker would just get a real nasty rash,its fantasy, I feel bad for you if you expected something more from this movie, I expected the movie to be exactly what it was, action,action and more action, a little story here and their, what do you expect from an Arnold movie? Do you expect and oscar winning performance? I showed this movie to my friends and they loved it, they dont like final fantasy, and they still think of anime as cartoons and it won them over, this is exactly what Final Fantasy need to keep doing, and if the ending wasnt to your liking Im sorry, but we arent the creators or writers and we dont get the say in how the story progresses, did you really think Sephiroth would beat Cloud? He couldnt even beat normal Cloud, not to mention a Bio-Engineered Cloud with emotional problems, it wasnt the greatest, but it wasnt spirits within either.

You will cease making personal attacks immediately, or you will be banned.

~Void

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Originally Posted by cloud20747

ITS JUST A smurfING MOVIE GET OVER IT!!!!

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What he said...