Varys develops gills and scales, Jamie Lannister starts wearing fedoras and King Robert comes back to life as an Other.
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Varys develops gills and scales, Jamie Lannister starts wearing fedoras and King Robert comes back to life as an Other.
This IS the tv thread. I made it years ago in hopes for the show. Filthy book readers keep spoiling. Heck it even has (S3) for season 3 in the title. Let them enjoy what we already know as they get it guys without spoiling it for them. It's not hard.
Actually, Book theory Varys being some sort of mermen or something (basically, not human) is an actual theory. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Pantz
... In other news, here is a list of The 14 Best Hodor Quotes From "Game Of Thrones".
Emmy worthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Paper Star
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Paper Star
Because then BoB would have to actively avoid a particular thread because of the possibly that he would be spoiled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland
I'm fine with seperate threads. Of course, I'm fine with just using 'book spoiler' tags in this thread, too. :p
The problem with doing that is that BoB considers things spoilers that most people wouldn't even blink at, such as that a character who has already clearly started his redemption continues along that path. I mean, when I said that mentioning that (SPOILER)Magus was a playable character in Chrono Trigger could spoil someone, people laughed at me. I think this goes quite a bit further than that.
Also: Hodor!
I haven't seen anyone say anything like that aside from referencing current events in the show. Every time I've seen someone leave even vague spoilers unmarked, I've marked them. Quit scaring people off, you slut!Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
BoB truly is a slut.
Hey, BoB doesn't become a slut until Book 4. Stop spoiling me!
What happens after the last event of the most recent showQuote:
Originally Posted by ShlupI haven't seen anyone say anything like that aside from referencing current events in the show. Every time I've seen someone leave even vague spoilers unmarked, I've marked them. Quit scaring people off, you slut!Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Quote:
Originally Posted by LPS
And as Pike clearly displays, it's not just me that feels this way... just sayin'.
Someone who shall remain nameless told me to come back to this thread.
So uh how about that Joffrey? He sure is a jerkbutt.
I look forward to karma kicking his arse, but at the same time I can't help but feel I'll miss him if he does kick the bucket. He's just so good at being a jerkbutt that I'm not sure whatever other jerkbutt that takes the stage will be anywhere near as good a jerkbutt as Joffrey is.
Don't worry you'll start liking him soon. He becomes a dragon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
Everyone's talking about Jaime redeeming himself (including you), but you decide that one must be referring to future events. Having read the books myself, it seemed to me she was referring to current events, but if you feel it was referring to future books then why don't you make use of your shiny admin title and put a spoiler tag on it like I do when people's posts are iffy. Pike left the thread because you told her to, not because she read a spoiler. I finally agree with everyone that you should be Ned because Ned made stupid decisions and died.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBWhat happens after the last event of the most recent showQuote:
Originally Posted by ShlupI haven't seen anyone say anything like that aside from referencing current events in the show. Every time I've seen someone leave even vague spoilers unmarked, I've marked them. Quit scaring people off, you slut!Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Quote:
Originally Posted by LPS
And as Pike clearly displays, it's not just me that feels this way... just sayin'.
He is. He is totally a jerkbutt. He has been known to make me yell at the TV in aggravation just from the looks on his face. Like when he says he's going to give Stannis a "red smile" I just want to knock my TV over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
She literally mentioned what happend at the very end of the last episode and then said what I previously quoted, then discussed what happens "after that" point for "the next few books". I'd say that is the very definition of referring to future events. xD You guys are the ones making a big deal about it, I was just pointing it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlup
Guilty on that, I'll do it now. I have no idea why I didn't do it earlier, to be honest.Quote:
Having read the books myself, it seemed to me she was referring to current events, but if you feel it was referring to future books then why don't you make use of your shiny admin title and put a spoiler tag on it like I do when people's posts are iffy.
I didn't tell her to leave the thread. O_o I said something accurate and let her make her own call.Quote:
Pike left the thread because you told her to, not because she read a spoiler.
I like his romance with Davos best.Quote:
Originally Posted by CuchulainnDon't worry you'll start liking him soon. He becomes a dragon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
Joffrey is a golden lion.
Cersei, on the other hand, is just plain lyin'.
Really? I thought that was a bit contrived, however when he brought Ned back to life using the blood of a Snark he really did turn trout around for himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinter WonderlandI like his romance with Davos best.Quote:
Originally Posted by CuchulainnDon't worry you'll start liking him soon. He becomes a dragon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
I guess I can kinda see that. I really liked how Ned rekindled his old romance with Davos after being resurrected, though.
He had some stanky onion breath after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland
totally man, what about when when Brienne killed Joffrey with her overbearing mangina?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland
On her back. Amirite? :jokey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
To the black cells with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
i had forgotten i got this wallpaper and put it in my rotation. it came up today.
it's 1920x1080http://i.imgur.com/HTZapzV.jpg
ooohhhh pretty
now that's a sweetass motherfunky wallpizzle.
I've been using that wallpaper for a little while but my monitor is tiny and not widescreen so Starks and Targaryens get cut off :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Denmark
I think I have a new wallpaper.
Mine too. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeI've been using that wallpaper for a little while but my monitor is tiny and not widescreen so Starks and Targaryens get cut off :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Denmark
I guess we could resize?
That's okay, House Tyrell is on there so really everything is fine :)Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeI've been using that wallpaper for a little while but my monitor is tiny and not widescreen so Starks and Targaryens get cut off :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Denmark
As in love as I am with the Eyrie, Casterly Rock looks bitchin.
Man this episode! Formy do not click this you'll spoil yourself I'M WARNING YOU FORMY. IT'S ABOUT THIS JUST AIRED ONE.
(SPOILER)I knew it was going to happen but I still gasped at Mormont's stabbing. And they are making Dany so badass. She was all "Valyrian is my mother tongue BITCH"
http://i.imgur.com/OIiLlex.gif
Sheesh, calm down Freya! Though your panicked pleas do make me very interested for the episode. I can sort of guess based on the title what's going to happen, but I'll see if I'm right later.
Same here Freya, I tried to steel myself for that moment, but it was still shocking and painful.
Great episode. Great great episode on several fronts. Loved the Tywin scene.
(SPOILER)
"Margaery has her claws in Joffrey. She knows how to manipulate him."
"Good. I wish you knew how to manipulate him."
The look on Cersei's face is priceless. Then:
"I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."
And by the kraken, when that man says "I will" I believe he smurfing will.
Daeny's "coming out" scene was fantastic, obviously.
DAT GIFQuote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Also seriously don't click that if you haven't watched the episode yet.
It's just a shame that we couldn't have seen more of the items relevant to that specific scene throughout the episode. There are so many split plots at the moment because all of the characters are all over the place that they have to try so hard to include all the simultaneous events into single episodes. Nuts!
It was obvious what was going to happen with Daenyrs but I still loved the scene. Talk about buyers remorse. Wonder if the Dothraki will ever be mentioned again now that she has a horde of Unsullied
I almost feel sorry for Theon
Dont know whats going to happen to Sansa but I have a feeling it wont be good.
I loved it.
Totally going back to this set too!
Love the Monopoly board! Here's a question though: why is the fingers so high on the board? Their a tiny strip of land in the Vale, they should surely be in the Brown zone area!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantz
Danaerys Targaryen is the most stone cold badass in the world and I would totally fight for her.
And I KNEW that guy with Theon was a ruseman! I knew it! Oh man that whole episode was intense and amazing. All that trout that went down in that episode and at Craster's Keep and Margaery managing to make Joffrey smile and Varys and Olenna Tyrell oh man. Oh man.
Gee, THANKS MILF. The UK premiere is tonight. :colbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
Oh jesus an episode that has ALREADY AIRED is not a spoiler. If you know it's already been watched by 90% of the planet, by virtue of them being American or civilized people who torrent, then it's on your own head if you come bumbling in.
Am I the only person who is actually kind of bored with Dany?
I liked that whole episode better up until her part, sorry.
Given that that's the most important thing she's done since hatching the Dragons I can't really wrap my head around why you'd find it boring :p
Just predictable, MILF. Don't get me wrong, I've been enjoying her story. But for this episode, in which she hadn't appeared at all until then... I don't know, it just felt out of place in this one. Maybe if there had been a more Dany-centric episode when it had happened.
I'm a lot more interested in the Jaime and Brienne story right now.
Are you crazy? that was one of the best scenes in the series. She commanded such attention. You're cray cray.
Yeah it was well done and shot etc etc, but just predictable and felt out of place in that episode imo.
But then tbf, she isn't my favourite character and I don't want her to take the Iron Throne. I won't be happy unless it's Arya and Gendry sat on there - but that's like, the most unlikely scenario to ever happen in the history of ever :(
Also, (SPOILER)
http://25.media.tumblr.com/4d0241774...wee2o3_250.gif
LOOK AT THE CRAZY. He's so excited.
That's not acting, it's just what Welsh people look like.
That kid is in Misfits and he has the smurfing creepy look on his face the entire time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
This past episode is one of my favorites. I'll never understand why Danaerys gets so much hate. I've liked her from the beginning, and she's becoming the character that I thought she would. Her actions may have been a little predictable but she gave the slavers the biggest ass-whooping anyone could have hoped for.
It's quite interesting to see Cersei develop. She seemed to have concocted this little plan for Joffrey to be king and for everything to go her way, and now she isn't getting what she wants, Joffrey is running amok and Jaime has been a prisoner for a year? over a year? Now the Tyrells are in the picture and she doesn't know how they plan to manipulate Joffrey and the only thing she can to is wring her hands and become anxious about it. Nothing left to do but go to Tywin for help, only she does it all wrong and he's like "sit down, you little trout, I've got this under control."
I adore Jaime. I just adore him. The way he spoke to Brienne about what was going to happen to her shows that he clearly cares about her, or her well-being, in any case, and then he went and stuck his neck out for her and ultimately ended up paying the price instead. He could have kept his mouth shut and just gone on with Brienne screaming. That was a huge character reveal to me. I'm so intrigued to see how he develops further. I can only imagine the loss of identity and self-worth that he is going through right now.
I hope that at some point in time, Cersei and Jaime will be reunited, and I'm so interested to see how they fare with one another after so many different situations and mistakes and things that have happened to them.
also I don't want The Hound to die, he's one of my favorites and I love him to pieces ;_________________________;
I never thought I would say this as she is generally one of the most boring characters but good smurfing god, that was an act of an utter monster. Fire and Blood. Brilliant. Well done, TV series, well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
Books. She's smurfing boring. In Season 2 of the show she was lame too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty
In other news: Tywin is a smurfing beast, I can't wait for the Dondarrion - Hound throwdown, I also can't wait to see the direction they take Theon and his new playmate in, hello again Varys good to see you're still around! and JORRAH YOUR DADDY :whimper:
The Hound had better tear him to pieces or I am going to be writing some angry letters featuring explicit illustrations.
Excellent episode. I'm really excited for every single storyline right now. I would watch a show that consisted solely of Tywin verbally bitchslapping his lessers, one at a time, for an hour straight.
And all the time he's just sat at his desk wax-sealing his letters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantz
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantz
THIS JUST IN
DAENERYS TARGARYEN IS THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE ENTIRE DAMN SHOW
For that episode.
Maybe.
TV SpoilerI was expecting her to get her dragon back after trading it for the Unsullied so it was a bit predictable. What I wasn't expecting was the manner in which she did it - that was just immense.
Yep, same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aulayna
I still think she's great. I've thought so since the second episode she was in (she annoyed me in the first)
Someone needs to sort out my house title again!
You need a house to have a title. All you have is dragons.
The episode was overall very good despite not having a lot of action in it. The scenes (SPOILER)Beyond the Wall were very well done and it showed just how far the Night's Watch has fallen and will continue to fall. Dany's scene was one scene in particular that I had been anticipating since the beginning of the show and even moreso since the start of this season. It was incredibly well done, powerful, and shows the evolution that she has gone through over the last few seasons and how she will continue to grow as it carries on.
Yeah I knew Dany had something up her sleeve but then again this is GoT, so the fact there was no twist was a twist. And she was stone cold as I said so, welp, I'd fight for her :shobon:
Yeah and you could say that they came in quite :sunglasses: handy! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
It was a great episode. I might have to watch it again. TV spoilI both look forward to and dread what will happen with bookish spoil? IDEK what people consider spoilers anymoreRamsay smurfing Bolton and Theon. Like what Freya pointed out in that .gif of Iwan Rheon, that look on his face is so maniacal and awesome omfg.
If you're caught up on the episodes, Tumblr can be very fun and funny.
But I wished they gave more poignancy to TV spoilJeor Mormont's death by including this line (Storm of Swords spoil).
I think I liked every episode this season better than the last so far. This one might've been my favorite in the entire series!
I can't believe Varys had the sorcerer who cut him imported, I wonder how that's going to impact the story. Also when Tywin says "I will," I wonder if it corroborates the theory that (SPOILER)he was at least complicit in the Purple Wedding.
No way, that's not his style at all.
Great episode, easily the best of the season so far.
(SPOILER)While it's true that Dany not losing the dragon was ridiculously predictable, the manner in which it was done was incredible, resulting in one of the best scenes of the whole series. Even for an obnoxiously slow-developing book series, Dany is especially slow -- even season 2 of the TV show couldn't make her subplot during that part very interesting -- but the TV show has done an overall fantastic job with her.
And yes, Tywin is a badass, Varys is awesome, the Tyrells add a much deeper political element, and just the whole damn episode was great -- despite only having cameos of Tyrion and Arya.
Yah know, even in the books, I never found Dany boring. I don't understand that comment that book readers make about it. I find the whole series interesting. Although, people say i'm easy to please when it comes to stories/movies/shows. I don't think so, I just appreciate the character archs/development/importance of every character that's worth more than a few mentions/screentime. Even shaggydog deserves some love!
This was the best episode of the season and it's a rare one where showing a bit of each storyline actually worked well. It helps when there's actual progression in each story (well most of them, the Bran and Jamie storylines still falter, hurry up and get to where you're going already).
Dany and Samwell's storylines get an A+ in this episode though. The King's Landing stuff was also very entertaining. Varys is a great character and should be shown more often.
Just had to share this gem, it's a few weeks old now but made me chortle:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/7f184af40...yjvro1_500.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/2825c85ce...yjvro2_500.gif
ahahahahahhaaaaaa that is the best GoT thing I have ever seen. Thank christ for tumblr.
Fantastic episode!
Although I will say that the Dany stuff was way predictable, but still awesome. I assumed that she would have the unsullied kill everyone, and I also assumed she would have her dragon burn the main slaver guy. It seemed the most sensible thing to do, and she did it. I like badass Dany. Get it, girl.
I love Varys. I think he's my favorite.
Worst line of the episode came from Brienne's lips. Women don't need to be hating on other women. :colbert: I know she said it to get a jolt out of Jamie, but it seemed especially dumb on a show where the girls have NOT been shown to be defeatist and whiny. So no, Brienne, Jamie was not acting like a woman.
Me too! There's not much in the books I actually think is boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
I agree with you in principle, but given her personality and the culture of Westeros it makes complete sense for her to say it. It's a stupid thing to say but it's a very fitting and believable line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Believable maybe, but still dumb as smurf.
Arya did this in the 1st season too and it annoyed me then. Annoys me now.
I cringed to hear her say it too, even though I think it perfectly fits her personality. The look on her face after she said it seemed to imply perhaps that it shocked even her. I think she said it just to goad Jamie, but after she said it she realized that she really meant it. I don't think she fully understands her inner conflict with the female gender, but hopefully that's something we'll see worked out as the show progresses.
I think it was a line that fits the world.
My thoughts on the most recent episode...
I'm with those that thought the Dany stuff was predictable, down to the fine details. I just found it weird that someone who supposedly commanded so many would actually fall for it without having a cunning plan, but I still predicted this would be the case because he's portrayed as an arrogant twat from the start and arrogant twats don't tend to have good backup plans.
I really liked pretty much every scene at King's Landing. Like Miriel, I adore Varys and he's one of my favourites, so it was great to get a couple of scenes out of him. It will be interesting to see which actions Joffrey takes as he looks to win the favour of the people.
About time all those things happened North of the Wall. The guy had it coming. What I didn't expect is for everyone to go battrout insane over it and have a war amongst themselves. Really hope Sam's pals catch up with him, because I like that little trio.
I TOLD YOU NOT TO CLIMB YOU LITTLE RUNT. God damn, man, have a nice dream for a change.
Just because she's a woman she's not allowed to be a mysoginist now?
No one's allowed to be misogynist. Duh.
I cringed at that line too, but chalked it up to her trying to find something that would get to Jaime. I get that she has conflict with her gender, but she's a girly girl in a lot of ways--I've never considered her someone who looked down on her gender, just didn't fit the accepted roles very well.
Overall great episode blah blah. When Tywin told Cersei she was stupid BJ cheered and it amused me. Joffrey's excitement giving Margery the tour was adorable in a "lord I am going to stab him in his smarmy face" sort of way.
Sansa has gone from being the most annoying character to the one that I feel for the most. Great acting mixed with an awesome arc and my heart is in a constant state of breaking for her. Her scenes with the Tyrells have probably been my favourites of the last two episodes and I especially never thought I would end up liking Sansa more than I do Arya, but to me Arya has really been dull this season.
I also agree with everyone that said the previous episode was the best of this season.
Yeah the Night's Watch bit was probably my favourite in the episode! Very tense.
Characters in work of fiction are allowed to express worldviews without the implication that said worldview has been endorsed. George R. R. Martin is routinely criticized because he writes about a world where women are regularly brutalized and raped, and it is often written in a matter-of-fact tone. He's writing in a medieval setting where women do not have the same basic rights that men do, and despite writing multiple female characters who manage to take power for themselves in that world, he is often regarded as a misogynist just because bad trout happens to women in his books. Characters can say and do things that disgust you. Sometimes that's the point of a character.
It's like saying that Lolita isn't one of the best books ever written because the main character is a twisted pedophile. Doesn't make the book any less amazing.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone is accusing the show itself of being misogynist or that it's not allowed to have characters who are, but it is a step that I've seen far too many people take.
You need to come and say this in the Wakka thread because we're having this exact conversation over there right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Um, yeah it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
There are a lot of things well beyond misogyny that occur in Game of Thrones that are not something I endorse nor like seeing other people endorse, but if the entire show was all about how to plant trees and cuddle then I probably wouldn't watch it. Zach's right.
There are many books where the main character is a murderer, a druggie, a whore, etc. which are fantastic. I don't see how a book about pedophiles or misogynists or anything like that are somehow not amazing purely because of them being about that kind of person.
And yet somehow it's still frequently ranked as one of the best novels ever written and highly regarded for the quality of its writing and how it engages the reader with the mind of a morally reprehensible narrator. I would argue that Lolita is amazing and engaging because the subject matter is so disturbing. It's about how Nabokov writes that lets you interact with the narrator when every little bit of you is condemning him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del MurderUm, yeah it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
If you only read/watch stuff that affirms your own moral worldview and does not make you uncomfortable, you're missing out.
Terrible episode. No Stannis.
I read Lolita. It's a classic, but not something you read romantically. I was mostly trolling you on that one, though. Obviously if Lolita was about a guy who just loved playing hopscotch with little girls it wouldn't have the same impact. Lolita is a classic and the moral reprehensibility of the main character is pretty much the fundamental theme of the book. It's just not as good as other well-written books without morally represensible main characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Back on subject, I've also read A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings. I liked them, but I think they would have been better without the rape, brutality, etc. I'm guessing from the sound of things it gets a lot worse, too. My beef with this series that differs from Lolita is that the gratuitous immorality in GoT is not critical to the central theme of the series. A lot of it is just in there for effect and it's hardly written as well as Lolita is. The two aren't even comparable.
There are several other examples in fantasy where the author uses obscenity and vile characters for dramatic effect and I just find it unncessary. It's a crutch almost. It doesn't have to be all peaches and rainbows, but if you're going to include a rape or torture scene, make it about something.
The immorality is central to the themes of the series, though. Game of Thrones is about a world that treats women utterly abysmally, and the gigantic psychological toll that aspect of their society takes on its characters. One of Martin's clear goals is to shine a light on the misogyny of our own society by presenting a society based on ours where the misogyny is, if anything, even worse than ours, and spelling out in explicit detail just how much harm that causes women and men alike. One can certainly criticise him for a lack of finesse in dealing with the issue in cases, and one can argue that he could have handled the matter more elegantly, but to claim the misogyny is not central to the themes of the books is missing a major theme of the series. It is one of the central themes of the series.
I think finesse and elegance is basically what I'm arguing though. It's fine for it to be a central theme of his novels, but man, he deals with it so coarsely. I also took a little offence to Ouchers comparing Martin to Nabokov. Come on now.
Did he state this somewhere? Cause most of the time it seems like he's doing it just because it's his novels and he can put whatever he wants in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Well, the point is to depict a very coarse world that has no finesse in how it treats its women. It wouldn't be so shocking if the actions themselves weren't shocking. The whole point is to shock the reader - this in turn, the thought process goes, is likely to trigger reflections in the reader about how these events affect the characters. If people were just rude to women it wouldn't trigger as much awareness. The violence and brutality is what drives the whole point home.
And I don't think I need to go into the fact that we have an awful lot of violence and brutality in our own society; much of it is just hidden under the surface, although in the age of the Internet this is changing somewhat.
Also I don't think Zach was intending to say Martin should be regarded on the same tier as Nabokov. Obviously Nabokov's prose is superior to all but a handful of other 20th century writers'.
I can't remember if he's explicitly said it (I think he's implied it at least) but if you read interviews with him it's obvious that he's put a lot of thought into why the women are treated the way they are and many of them, such as ADWD spoilerCersei being paraded naked through King's Landing, are based on actual historical events. The texual evidence for this is pretty strong, anyway, since you'd have to be an oaf to miss how much the women in Martin's novels suffer, and how much of this suffering is directly consequent of the misogyny of the setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Shock and vulgarity is one of the most effortless ways to get your point across. It requires no real talent. So you can suck my dick. See? Took no effort on my part. I guess I don't give a lot of credit to writers who use shock and vulgarity because it's so easy. Going back to the Lolita example, Nabokov used anything but shock and vulgarity to describe that obession. So when Martin does it, it just makes me roll my eyes rather than underscore any theme of the story.
I don't think it's just about shock value. It's an attempt at stark reality. Since when does rape in the real world make any sense? Since when does it have purpose? It's ugly and painful and there's absolutely no finesse or elegance or poise or beauty about it whatsoever. Why should the novel be different? (not rhetorical, a case could be made for the novel needing to be differentiated from reality in certain situations, but I haven't really heard anyone make the case for this particular set of stories)
Also, is it this next episode or the one after that's going to be completely mindsmurfing terrible-awesome?
Some of these stories are getting to places I really wanted to see.
EDIT: Keep in mind that these are not "novels" in the same way that Lolita is a novel. The latter is literature, and the former is fantasy/genre fiction. Each requires a different approach and a different set of tools to confirm the narrative.
Yeah, it's not just that it's shocking; it's that it's shocking and that it mirrors events in our own world. Rape and torture like those depicted in the novel are disturbingly common even today. Perhaps not as common as they seem to be in Westeros, but then, we're not in the midst of a war in this country. Rape and torture happen all the time in war.
I wasn't suggesting that Nabokov and Martin deserve to be considered on the same level as writers, and you know that, Tmoney.
Frankly, one of the problems I have with a lot of fantasy is that it's often afraid to touch on some of the stuff that Martin touches on. The world is not a nice place, and fantasy far too often falls back on a generally pleasant population with all the evil in the world wrapped up into a single character (or group of characters) who serve as the main villains and are the source of almost all misfortune in the world.
Martin has always tried to take a step away from that. Bad stuff happens to good people. Good stuff happens to bad people. Stuff happens for no reason. It's why a young boy is crippled not even a quarter of the way through the first book. It's why there's a house whose sigil is a flayed man, and the family is notorious for torture. It's why a young girl is beaten by knights sworn to protect at the order of the king. It's why a queen struggles so hard to prove that she belongs in a world of men. The world's ambivalence to good and evil, and the brutality of man is absolutely central to just about everything that happens in the book. If you strip that away, if you take away the rape, the incest, the misogyny, and the bigotry you take away most of what makes A Song of Ice and Fire different from most other fantasy, because when you take all of that away, a lot of the characters very quickly become very boring.
Are you sure he doesn't just put it in there for the hell of it?
If he were just putting it there for the hell of it then there wouldn't be such in-depth examination of the psychological toll the misogyny of the setting takes on his characters. Cersei, for example, would not be even remotely the same person in a world that wasn't so tainted by misogyny. The misogyny of the setting played a major role in shaping her into the person she is. She is far from the only one; the misogyny is a direct influence on the plotline. If it were there and not commented on, then we could assume he was only putting it in to shock readers; but because it is such a major influence on the behaviour of characters, it's safe to assume that he's deliberately putting it in the story to comment on the effects it has.
You may not have read past book two, but you saw Sunday's episode and Cersei's confrontation of Tywin. You tell me if the misogyny has any purpose in the narrative or if it's just in there for the hell of it.
I was under the impression that scene was just for the show since Cersei isn't a POV character in the books (and was a more minor character in the first two books).
And I was more referring to the rape scenes.
Del evades successfully.
Counters with rape.
Ouch! responds with...
I am so high right now, and the conversation going on in this thread is just blowing my mind.
Also, I'm pretty sure Pike posted this with me in mind. xD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
I think you guys are missing the point of me pointing out the stupidity of Brienne's comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
First, whether or not a line is contextually sound does not and SHOULD NOT influence whether or not an audience member can find that line to be offensive. Tossing a kid out a window is offensive. Chopping off a horse's head is offensive. Just because these things make sense within the confines of the story, does not negate the offensiveness.
I think it would be bizarre to watch or read or hear something dumb and think, "What's the context? Racist/sexist/medieval world? Ok, offensive remarks check out, no problem here."
Me thinking her comments are dumb does not mean that I think the comments are somehow breaking the show.
And beyond that, Westeros does not seem like a world in which people, unless they're fabulously wealthy and spoiled, can afford to sulk. I would imagine that regular people, women included, know how to hustle and survive. If you look at all the female characters on the show, some may be battrout insane or narcissistic or bland and naive or clever or strong, but few are just willing to lay down and die. So I'm wondering who Brienne was thinking about when she was imagining women sniveling and giving up.
Just in terms of the show alone, there are issues of sexism and racism that can't be waved away with the "It's how it was in the medieval period" excuse. Which btw, historical accuracy can't always be the go-to excuse when dealing with fantasy anyhow. The gratuitous showing of female nudity versus male nudity is an example of this. It's interesting because Rome actually had a ton of male nudity in addition to the female nudity, so it's not like HBO is patently against showing some dick.
As for the books, I only read part of the first book and found that I really didn't like Martin's writing style. The criticism he gets for the rape and sexualization of females doesn't seem to be that he includes it in his story, but the fact that he does it so overwhelmingly often. Depiction is not endorsement, most people get that. But when there is a LOT of sexism and racism in a fictional work where the creator pretty has absolute control over what does and does not happen within that fictional work, then you can understand why there might be incredulity and questions. I don't think Game of Thrones is a sexist work, even though sexism is depicted. I DO think that is some unintentional sexism and racism beyond what can be attributed to the integrity of the story and the themes. I also think that using rape as the ultimate BAD THING that could happen to a women, always and constantly, is most definitely a crutch and can be lazy or unimaginative.
Tigana is a fantasy book and much better written (although not a better story in my opinion) that does deal with rape and torture and whatnot. The writer just has a more careful touch with it.
:kaoindif:I've lost interest in this thread.
Question: can "appoint" be used as an appropriate un-negation of "disappoint"? Oh god, that doesn't even look like a word right now. I guess it doesn't really matter, since I did just prefix "negation".
Miriel never fails to appoint.
... or should it be "always fails to disappoint"? :confused:
Cersei, the woman who started the war by plotting to kill her husband, the King of Westeros, and whose exposed incestuous relationship is the linchpin for the entire war of succession that forms the basis for the majority of the series's plot is a minor character? And she is a point-of-view character, just not in either of the books you've read. While Cersei demanding acknowledgment from her father and wanting Casterly Rock happens before she gets any chapters, it is from the books.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Regarding rape: how about Cersei preparing to kill herself and Sansa to spare them rape if King's Landing were to fall in the Battle of the Blackwater?
I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said when I first brought it up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
I happen to find a lot of the stuff that happens in the television series offensive, too. I just don't have a problem with fiction depicting that which I find offensive. Neither the show nor books are glorifying rape or sexism, it's merely presenting them as a reality of the fictional world. You both may disagree with me, but I do think that this serves a purpose for the narrative. Beyond that, I'd even say that the lack of "careful touch" is intentional. I don't think Martin is trying to be even remotely careful in his frank and casual portrayal of rape and misogyny. I'd argue that's part of the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch
If an author is not being thoughtful and judicious in his use of rape and sexual violence against women, then he is being lazy or using it liberally for shock value. To use rape to show how dark a world is, to use rape as character development for a female, to use the prevention of rape as character development for a male, to use rape to show moral ambiguity in a character, to use rape to show who is a villain, to use rape to highlight "THIS IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION!" to use rape to build suspense, to use rape in all these ways many times over means that you are using rape as a literary crutch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
I actually don't think that the show has been gratuitous in the rape depictions. I hear the book tosses around rape like it's candy though. But having given up on the books (which is a rarity for me), I don't know how much the rape facilitates the story and how much Martin just uses it because he doesn't know what else to use when dealing with female characters.
Also, when I mention the careful touch, I didn't mean that Tigana didn't use rape frankly or boldly. More that when rape was mentioned, it was effective and seamless. And not gratuitous.
You people are ruining the thread.
Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing (SPOILER)Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.
That's my girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aulayna
Yes she is a minor character in the first two books. She's barely in A Clash of Kings. She may be a catalyst for much that has gone on but that doesn't make her a major character. She has a much bigger role in the show and I think her character on the show has been handled much better. Her scenes alone with Joffrey or her father have shown me a lot more about her than I read in the first two novels. I think you are letting your future knowledge of what follows and what you've seen of the show to mask the content of the first two novels which you may not have read as recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
That's actually a good example of how to do it well. It conveyed the sense of fear and how the spoils of war work in Westeros. A good example of a gratuitous scene is when The Mountain book 2 spoilerrandomly rapes some innkeeper's daughter as payment for insulting him and then has each of his men take a turn. That was completely unnecessary as it was already clear what an imposing and fearsome figure The Mountain was. Rape was used as a crutch in that scene just to make him look as bad as possible. It was also disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
She is a major character like Varys and Littlefinger are major characters. They play a much larger role behind the scenes than they do in the forefront, like Ned or Arya does. Their influence on other characters, specifically Cersei's influence on the events mentioned by Ouch! and in her failed attempts at guiding Joffrey as king, make her a fairly important character in the overall story, both in the books and the show.
Varys and Littlefinger get more characterization in the first two books than Cersei does, but I will concede that she is important for plot reasons. When you ask me who GoT or ACoK is about, though, Cersei Lannister would be far from my lips.
By book five, Cersei is a much more developed character than Varys or Littlefinger. We don't understand at all what Varys or Littlefinger want (and Martin has confirmed they will never be viewpoint characters because "they know too much"), but Cersei's thought processes are clearly and thoroughly documented out.
I really don't think the depictions of rape in the series are generally gratuitous. Martin may be a fantasy author, but he's striving for realism as much as possible (he's stated this explicitly several times). Rape happens a lot in war. Rape happened a lot in medieval history. The story depicts a medieval setting which is largely based off our own history and happens to be in the midst of a brutal war.
That's not to say there aren't instances of it where it's lazy writing, but I don't think for the most part that he is using it because he has nothing else to fall back on; he is using it because it is what happens in war. It is not as if Martin shies away from other atrocities, either; the horrific tortures inflicted on others by the Bloody Mummers (which, admittedly, include rape, but go far beyond it as well) are proof of that.
And The Mountain had no reason to rape the inkeeper's daughter? When do rapists ever have reason to rape? Most rapists are serial rapists, which is a fact large numbers of people seem to forget. If you depict a person committing rape once and then never doing it again, that is not a realistic depiction of what usually happens in real life. I would say he becomes much more vile because he keeps doing it over and over. This is another reason real-life rapists are so vile as well.
It's crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle, but that's the point. War is crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle. If people had any idea what war actually entails in real life, it wouldn't happen so much.
I don't think you understand. I'm not trying to get into the head of The Mountain. Smurf that guy. I only mean there's no reason to depict that in the story other than for gratuity and shock value.
Look, this is a fantasy story. Not a biopic on the brutality and inhumanity of war. There's freaking dragons in this story. So saying that this is meant to be a realistic depiction of the brutality of war is a stretch. The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.
What war was Martin in?
There is reason, though. As I stated, most rapists are serial rapists. Depicting characters raping repeatedly drives this point, which is very frequently ignored in Western media, home thoroughly.
I believe Martin was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, but he is extremely well read about military history and I'm sure he has plenty of friends who served.
"Post and subscribe to the GoT thread" they said. "It'll be fun" they said.
-__-
:love:Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernChaosGodThat's my girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aulayna
This is exactly the kind of statement that I think is entirely misplaced. Because his writing has loads of violence, he has a fetish for violence, and it's something he puts in just because he can? Depictions of violence in fiction are not an endorsement nor a celebration of said violence. Or misogyny. Or rape. Or racism. Or anything. Does this sound like a guy who has a fetish for violence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Martin on war in fantasy:
"War is so central to fantasy... and yet it's these bloodless wars where the heroes are killing unending Orcs, and the heroes are not being killed... I think that if you're going to write about war and violence then show the cost - show how ugly it is, show both sides of it. There's also the other side (which sometimes gets me in trouble with the opposite side of the political spectrum): the glory of war. Those of us who are opposed to war tend to try to pretend it doesn't exist, but if you read the ancient historical sources... people are always talking about the banners that 'stirred the heart'... I think that if you're going to write about that period then you should reflect honestly what it's about and capture both sides of it..."
He freely admits that there's something glorious about war, but there's a reason that he gets to the gritty, brutal aspects as well. That we're having this discussion at all, debating whether Martin goes too far in his depiction of violence and brutality and rape means that he's making his point pretty damned well. You're uncomfortable because of how prevalent that material is in his books. He's putting that in his books because that's the way things were and it should make you uncomfortable. He's not glorifying it. He's condemning it.
Edit: Also from the horse's mouth, so to speak, on his female characters trying to assert themselves in a male-dominated world and if it's a feminist statement:
"You could certainly interpret it that way. I don't presume to say I'm making a statement of this type or that type. But it is certainly a patriarchal society, I am trying to explore some of the ramifications of that. I try to write women as people, just as I try to write any other characters. Strong and weak, and brave and cowardly, and noble and selfish. It has been very gratifying to me how many women read my work and how much they like at least some of my female characters."
Fair enough. :D Thanks for doing the research.
Del Murder: taking his role as Tywin to the next level
Nice edit, buddy. :D
I play a game of shadows. Also, like Tywin I will never fully concede. He can do it for all those reasons and still have a feitsh for it. I will never bow down to any man! My legacy must be preserved!
A game of shadows? I wouldn't say either Varys or Littlefinger are loyal to Tywin.
Did we have a Varys?
EDIT: Ha it's Roogle. Pretty good choice.
This checks out.
Changing the subject drastically from meta-analysing the histories of rape, torture, writing skill blah blah blah... my thoughts on the episode. I only watched it today, as I've been ill the past few days and missed it on Monday, so let meboreregale you on the episode. Sorry.
Game Of Thrones: Season 3 / Episode 4
Overall
An episode with an air of betrayal and revenge. Ayra's revenge, Dany's betrayal, Mormont being literally stabbed in the back, Varys's revenge, Margarey and Olenna's scheming... all facets of revenge. I loved this episode overall and we've gone over the hill of the opening three episodes, which was mainly filled with build-up. Two key sections in this episode really stood out, and Dany finally is becoming a major power in this story!
Jaime/Brienne
I mentioned this earlier on about how impressed I am with Jaime's development through the show, and this episode further proliferates his path of redemption. He was arrogantly smug in Season 1, indignant during Season 2, but now he's really turned things around now. He paid a high price for his kindness towards Brienne though, but it's glad to see Brienne repaying the favor with her pep talk. It's clear now that they are a real dyad in the story and rely on each other to get through the ordeal. It's credit to the production team and writers that they've solidified their bond in just two episodes: Episode 3 and Episode 4. In one fell swoop with Jaime's defending of Brienne, suddenly we sympathise with him again.
Arya/Gendry
Mere set-up. We meet that Dondarrion bloke again from season 1 and if I remember correctly he looks well different from then. It's decent set-up for the next episode where her story really comes along, and it's important to note Arya's revenge streak is being sated, remember the Hound is a name on her list, which actually hasn't been referenced in a long while.
Varys
Quite refreshing that we actually hear more about the Spider. This is really perhaps the first episode where we get quite a focus on the enigmatic enuch. We learn about his past, in a scene where Tyrion was reduced to mere spectator, an interesting turn-around where Varys is normally the 'supporting' character in a conversation. This scene was more a veiled threat though, as we learn that Varys can truly have great influence, with the sorcerer from his past being shipped like a cargo haul from UPS.
His next scene was quite good, with Olenna Tyrell, and has him back to his usual scheming ways.
Margaery
More from the smiling schemer, in where she feigns interest towards Joffrey. She knows exactly what to say to everyone and succedeed in winning the smallfolk back, which indirectly helps Joffrey too, something Cersei could not. Cersei knows she has truly lost her grip on the King and is further outcast from both her son, and her family. She's the queen regent in name only.
Dany's Angels
Dany has her posse now with Jorah, Barristan and Missandei, which is nice. With Missandei, she finally has a female confidant since Irri and Doreah died on her, so it will be interesting to see those personal scenes play out, so far this season it's really only been displays of power with Dany so far.
As has been said earlier in the thread, her betrayal was pure awesomeness. I KNEW I was right when Dany spoke Valaryian, I called it right back in episode 1. The look on the slaver's face (and her posse) when she spoke was priceless.
Beyond The Wall
No Jon Snow (that's next week), but it's a very sad episode all round when it came to beyond the wall. In Craster's Keep, the death of Mormont, for me was genuinely horrifying and shocking, and I actually skipped over the really harrowing, greusome bit. I didn't want to see him die! I know, call me a wuss.
The segment played well because whenever Rast (the guy who actually killed Mormont) was in a scene, the camera made well to zoom in on him in an ominous fashion and hear is moaning about all sorts. Good forebording on him, thinking back in the episode. Besides that, we also now get the split of Samwell Tarly and Gilly. Hopefully in later episodes Sam will really come out as a starring character with his own scenes, rather than being a foil for Jon, or a bumbling annoyance to the Nights Watch!
Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!
Seriously. It was/is a great conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Oh, I read them, and they were very well developed and nice, but it got abit for me after it was like a page of back and forth. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
And don't get me started on meme images, I took part in Badass Mafia and got them in droves.
Another point I forgot to bring up earlier is that it's probably also worth considering that fiction is often not just a commentary on the real world but also on other fiction as well. As Martin himself points out in that interview (thanks for posting it, btw, Zach), war in most fantasy before Martin's came along was pretty sterile and bloodless. A case could be made that Martin may somewhat be exaggerating the brutality of modern life (I don't really agree with this case, but I can see legitimate reason for someone to think it), but there would still be an artistic purpose for doing so: namely, as a commentary on all the fiction that came before it. In other words, by making his world so brutal, he's presenting a deliberate "smurf you" to all the fantasy authors who came before him and presented war as some bloodless sport.
That said, I'm pretty sure at least 90% of his motive was just to reflect the actual brutality of actual history. I mean, yeah, there are dragons and (mostly not very powerful magic) and a few deviations from actual history, but they're mostly just used to add flavour to the plot. Apart from the climate issue, which is central to the setting, most of Martin's deviations are pretty small, and the world is mostly just asking, "What if the laws of nature had diverged in X and Y and Z ways, but human nature remained mostly the same?" Which, from where I'm sitting, is exactly the kind of question speculative fiction should be asking.
^ Yes, this series was created to subvert the major fantasy tropes, you could make a whole thread just about that. You also have to keep in mind that George also writes Horror, so unless you think all horror authors have a fetish, it's a little unfair to place him in that category.
That's also something that I think a lot of people really forget about Martin because the series is still incomplete. A Game of Thrones first came out in 1996. While most fantasy these days more readily engages "mature" content, when Martin first started the series, it was a drastic departure tonally and thematically from the rest of the genre. Crippling children and killing off the "main" character at the end of the first book was absolutely unheard of. And while more recent series like the Gentleman Bastards and The Kingkiller Chronicles may readily acknowledge rape, murder, and brutality as realities of the medieval settings fantasy often occupies, before Martin everything was quite happy to gloss over that in favor of a more idealized fantasy world of good vs. evil.
off-topic noteI'm not sure I'd go as far as saying rape is completely absent from earlier works of fantasy. I mean, there's the obvious example of Thomas Covenant, which depicts it being committed by the main character (although admittedly, due to his believing that the Land is not actually a real place, it's not presented as an everyday occurrence, and of course this is the main reason Covenant is considered an anti-hero at best and an outright anti-villain by many readers. This is also the main reason I haven't been able to get through the series yet - I find it impossible to care about Covenant after that, and the other characters, at that point in the book, haven't been developed enough to stand out much. I do intend to give the series another chance at some point, though).
There are also the early books of The Wheel of Time, which allude to quite a bit of rape, torture, dismemberment, and other heinous acts being committed by the villains, but many of these are completely inhuman monsters (many of them literally) and most of the rape is not described firsthand (although strangely, one of the most inhuman villains is subjected to it as punishment for her failures in a later book, and it's pretty clear that we're meant to feel sorry for her despite the fact that she's a monstrous person who (SPOILER)trained children as soldiers and committed other similar atrocities - not to mention, (SPOILER)by engineering the Tower split almost singlehandedly, she was actually more successful than arguably any other villain in the series, but because she didn't come when called she was raped and tortured regardless. If memory serves, this was in Crossroads of Twilight, making it one of the few things that happened in that book. Unfortunately and infamously, male victims of rape are not treated anywhere near as seriously, which is just one of many examples of the series' massively screwed up gender politics, most of which stems from the series' straw matriarchy). The series does feature torture used on a fairly widespread basis, as well, to the point where "put to the question" is universally understood as a euphemism. Admittedly, everyone who uses torture and isn't working for the primary villains is working for one of the secondary villain organisations instead.
So, to wrap up, I'd really say that Martin is notable more for presenting torture and rape as everyday occurrences in a medieval/wartorn setting that could be committed by allies of the heroes (insofar as there are any "heroes") just as easily as they could by antagonists than he is for using them at all. You may not have meant to imply otherwise, but I felt compelled to respond regardless.
Finally watched this week's episode.
Y'all know I'm not a fan of Dany, and I'm even less of a fan of Emilia Clarke's acting "skills", but goddamn, the last 5 minutes of this episode were smurfing awesome.
I think what we really learn from ASoI&F & AGoT is that each person has their own set of values which they adhere to, and their own evils which they choose to inhabit. It's a relativistic view of a moral/amoral landscape. It allows Martin to make us hate a character and later love them. It says something about Martin and about us that we hate Jaime for being a child-killer, and later love him forprotecting/befriending Brienne. Same with the Dog and his treatment of Sansa. Good and evil are constantly shifting and being redressed, so the reader/watcher has to dig deeper into the characters and come to really understand their motivations and desires. He's really doing some things with characterization that normally only happen in Literature. It doesn't always work, but I applaud him for even trying it in the fantasy setting. Good people aren't all good, and bad people aren't all bad. Well except forRamsay. What an evil smurf. >_<
Agreed. Martin is pretty much the first major fantasy writer to try a cast composed almost entirely of anti-heroes and anti-villains, and he's so effective at it that there isn't even any consensus on who is an anti-hero and who is an anti-villain. That's a testament to how nuanced the characterisation and conflict are.
(Though there are a few beyond (SPOILER)Ramsay who are unapologetically evil, including (SPOILER)The Mountain and Vargo Hoat).
Here cheer up buttercups!
That video contains content from WMG, Freya,
W.M.G.
GOSH! :roll2
Agreeing with Ouch! and The Man while disagreeing with Del and Miriel is an odd sensation. It's really interesting that, in such a violent series, the only violence being complained about is sexual violence. There is so much violence in this series. The brutality puts you on edge and reminds you this is not some standard piece of fiction where we kill the guys who wear black (in fact, Martin specifically dressed the Night's Watch in black to counter that trope) and the heroes all come through it--just like in real war (plus dragons), anything can happen, anyone can die, every hero makes bad choices and every villain can be relatable. Following what's safe and doing what you know the readers want is what's lazy. Writing a perfect little war where the women are safely tucked away while the men cut through dozens of bloodless creatures while remaining uninjured is what's lazy, and it does a disservice to anyone who reads it, glorifying war by ignoring the brutality of it. Martin doesn't write brutality because it's easy and because he can--he does it so that you know that everyone and everything is smurfed.
Anyway, as I was going to post last night before my internet went down: How goddamn heartbreaking is this face?
http://i.imgur.com/nhBfydo.png
She's not quite as excited in the books because Loras has joined Joffrey's Kingsguard (and, thus, can't marry) so Sansa is asked to marry the oldest Tyrell, Willas, who's got a crippled leg and is not as hot as Loras.
(SPOILER)He's Ramsay. The eyes give it away. And, well, the cast list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
I must admit there were times when reading the books where I've thought that Martin was a non-practicing sexual sadist but it just made me like him even more.
To be fair, the series I read before this was The Sword of Truth, which I began to refer to as "The Rape Books" after awhile because that trout is full of very gratuitous rape and it was very clear that the author was getting off on it.
Huh. I wonder if the naming of the series has anything to do with that author's fetish. Bleh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlup
If anything the show is sexist for not showing more average women. We see all sorts of male extras or side characters bumbling about but it seems any women in the show have to be depicted as a single female lawyer unless theyre servants or prostitutes and even then a lot of them have cunning alterior motives etc. Thats not to say whiny women and stupid girls dont make up the majority of the female population in this the world, it's just the camera never points at them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Don't you bring that in here you swine :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBHuh. I wonder if the naming of the series has anything to do with that author's fetish. Bleh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlup
What did I bring?
I love Emilia Clarke, never seen a problem with her acting tbqh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
On the other hand she did date Seth MacFarlane for a while and I have no idea why anyone would ever do that.
Oh Dany, Queen of the Dead Eyes
Every scene
Same look
Same blank face
Same dead eyes
Same monotone voice
That's how she's supposed to act, thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
Is it? Because that certainly wasn't the Dany in the books.Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeThat's how she's supposed to act, thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
I really don't see the sheer hatred of Dany in the T.V series, I really don't. I think she's been portrayed well personally, she's certainly not my most hated character *cough* Stannis *cough*
It's especially interesting because all of GoT's directors seem to get a lot of work out of the actors' faces. See any interaction between the Lannisters. Also see the picture of Sansa that Shlup posted. That was a great scene for her, well acted and well directed.
So it would seem to follow that Dany's stoic exterior is something they're doing intentionally for the show. Even if Clarke is a bad actor, I think the directors would pull something out of her if they really wanted to.
Show =/= BookQuote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's BoobsIs it? Because that certainly wasn't the Dany in the books.Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeThat's how she's supposed to act, thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
Well I haven't read the books so I'm going by the show alone where I think she's a believable and interesting character - her acting certainly convinces me, anyway
I could be in the minority, though, I suppose
Nope, I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
I want to say that I like Dany. She's a great character, started off weak, but gradually gains strength as the story progresses in both the show and books. It's only in the books that you can actually read what she's thinking.
Part of the joke is that, in the books, (SPOILER)Ramsey and Reek are the same character upon initial introduction. I am fully aware what role the actor plays and I guess my joke fell flat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlup(SPOILER)He's Ramsay. The eyes give it away. And, well, the cast list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Most of Dany's character growth is through her own internal monologue and how she reacts, internally, to the events going on around her. The show doesn't have access to this, which makes it a little harder to portray the character correctly. Dany, in the show, is portrayed exactly as she should be: a scared girl who has no real idea what she is supposed to be doing but knows that she is the last dragon and, as such, must act the part. I'd say the actress has played her fairly stellar so far.Quote:
Is it? Because that certainly wasn't the Dany in the books.
I think the only person who hates Dany is TB.
Also what are you people talking about DEM EYEBROWS. She shows tons of emotion through those dang eyebrows!
http://i.minus.com/iv7YANYHMxtEI.gif
It's like watching hairy ocean swells.
What you've got to remember is that for pretty much the entire time, she's constantly on the move, leading her dothraki/army/posse across Essos. She's not exactly got alot of time to talk to what's left of her companions (Irri, Doreah, Drogo are dead remember) and she's really only got Jorah to talk to (Barristan and Missandei have only just recently joined her), and even then she's either criticising him, dismissing his advances or otherwise telling him what to do. Not alot of time to open up her emotions in all of that.
Couple with what was said about the whole internal monologue not being able to transfer to screen, and you can see why Dany doesn't have alot of room to show emotion or open up. Given what time she does have, the actress is doing a good job really!
Emilia Clarke is extremely expressive and has a ton of energy in real life.
Acting? Not so much.
Danaerys is one of the best characters for conveying her emotions purely through her eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
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I think you're just drawing blanks to hate on her.
I've given a ton of reasons why I hate Daenerys, actually.
Although, the more I think about it, the more I've come to realize I never really liked Dany to begin with, but Emilia Clarke's shoddy portrayal of her sealed the deal. There are other actresses who would've done loads better.
Also, except for the first picture, all dead eyes.
I think you don't understand that the character isn't trying to show emotion. She's in a world where she's forever been seen as "the girl with a name at the edge of the world." She's no threat. What would showing her emotions do for her? Going back to the misogynistic thing, the world is dominated by men, showing her emotions to them would just make her look weak in their eyes. The last time she showed emotion to anyone, her husband was murdered. She has her moments where she does shows emotions, such as trying to give water to the slave. Being seen as no threat in the eyes of men, she's constantly underestimated. Without playing into it too much, she uses that to her advantage. And walks out with an army.
Or should she be broody and emo like Jon Snow?
You can be stoic, and not be bland.
I still don't understand your "dead eyes" thing. I don't see that. At all.
That's just it. She conceals her emotions and outbursts, but you can see the wheels working in her eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Except her eyes are always dead and lifeless. So, not really.
You seem to be the only person here observing that, so for those of us who can see it: yeah, really.
Lol ---> The Khaleesi Sucks At Acting...
Moving on, since we won't agree--
Is it just more, or has this season been really slow? Except for the ending of this episode, it's been really bland. We're over a third into the season, and after next week's, we'll be halfway though. I don't feel like the stories have progressed at all.
Although, I will say, Varys and Olenna. Omg. They need to have a spin-off talk show. For real.
The season so far has been slow, but it's picking up pace. Bear in mind that's we had the battle of blackwater, now we need a sort of comedown after that.
Episodes 1-3 for me were going up the hill of a rollercoaster, and then we climaxed with episode 4 with Dany's performance in Astapor and Mormont's death beyond the wall. Now, I'd wager that episodes 5-8 is probably going to be another hill (maybe with a few exceptions) towards Episode 9, which is obviously going to be a huge episode story wise.
You know, I kind of hate the Night's Watch.
As much as I hate Craster, the Night's Watch were being awfully demanding and expecting of food and trout.
You know what? I agree with you Sam. We agree on something! Yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
The thing is, Mormont was just what the Night's Watch needed. Sure, no-one liked Craster, but Mormont had that patience and tread a very thin line. While I understand the Nights Watch were in pretty dire straights, they still have to be patient: bear in mind they turned up completely unannounced. Craster technically didn't have to let them stay.
What we have to remember though is that the Nights Watch is made mainly of thieves and criminals. But still, killing under guest right is just a mortal sin in Westeros.
Yeah, Tywin. Geez.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
Seriously, though, it's intentional and (if the directors are worth their salt) under instruction from the director. It's a case of being told not to show emotion, which she does very well while still having subtle emotions shown at certain times. There are, of course, moments where her emotion does come through, and if you don't catch them then that kinda sucks. I don't really care all that much for Dany regardless, though, as I like my characters to show emotion or have a wickedly awesome voice (hi, Tywin), of which Dany leaves both boxes unchecked. She's not bad, just not even close to a favourite. Danielle likes her a lot, though. Sam certainly has no obligation to like her, it's all down to opinion.
EDIT: Not gonna lie, was delighted to see Craster die, but really gutted to see Mormont go down with him.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone's critiques on acting (which is like, so smurfing subjective) just because you don't agree with it.
I think Shorty's examples are funny because in half of them, I do see emotion, and in the half they really are dead eyes. So it's kinda like half proving her point and half proving TB's point. Tyra Banks would tell her she needs to smize more.
I think Emilia Clarke vacillates between being very good and convincing and other times you can tell that she's acting. Which is totally understandable. This is one of her first acting gigs. She's doing well for someone who is so new. But compare her to the actor who plays Joffrey. That guy is really smurfing good. I think one of the best actors on the show. THe range he gets in the tiniest movements in his face and eyes are amazing.
I'm kind of fascinated with the character of Margaery because I get the sense that no one has seen her true self except in the brief scene where she confesses to wanting to be THE queen. Every single interaction she has (including with her family) seems to be calculated and affected. Poor Sansa, if she has an ounce of sense, she would know not to trust her fully.
EDIT: CONFUSED SHORTY & FREYA.
I actually mentioned Tywin to someone just a few minutes ago. But despite his stoic demeanor and deliverance, he makes people feel something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBYeah, Tywin. Geez.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
Seriously, though, it's intentional and (if the directors are worth their salt) under instruction from the director. It's a case of being told not to show emotion, which she does very well while still having subtle emotions shown at certain times. There are, of course, moments where her emotion does come through, and if you don't catch them then that kinda sucks. I don't really care all that much for Dany regardless, though, as I like my characters to show emotion or have a wickedly awesome voice (hi, Tywin), of which Dany leaves both boxes unchecked. She's not bad, just not even close to a favourite. Danielle likes her a lot, though. Sam certainly has no obligation to like her, it's all down to opinion.
EDIT: Not gonna lie, was delighted to see Craster die, but really gutted to see Mormont go down with him.
ALSO OMG MIRIEL SMIZE
SMIZE SMIZE SMIZE
goddammit, y'all, let's just get tyra to play dany
You mean shorty's examples :P
The casting for Joffrey was perfect. I love watching Joffrey, I love to hate him. He is an epic character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Also, I love what they've done with Margaery. In the books she was a fairly minor character, in the show she's smurfing amazing. I think she's probably my favourite female on the show atm. Besides Olenna.
True factz.
I only dislike Dany out of petty spite because my housemate well and truly raves about her and is her 'biggest fan' and has a Targaryen iPhone case and all sorts and "Omg, I connect so much with Daenerys, it's like I literally am her." So I'm always like "Oh I don't like her she's kind of lame."
But deep down I do love Dany. But this constant need to be all "NO I HATE HER" is actually starting to kill me inside.
Judge me as you will.
:colbert:
We're here for you, Tara. :kiss:Quote:
Originally Posted by Locky
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I was reading on the wiki about Dany and she actually sounds interesting, particularly to hear (SPOILER)Tyrion (idk if that's a spoiler as he's not actually met her in the books but w/e, lonny bob is a tit) describe her. To actually read her chapters is an abomination, especially in ADWD. I have therefore decided that she is best consumed through bullet points... which is exactly what the TV show is! Hurray!
This is exactly me being stubborn.
But goddamnit I loved this show before her, and she tries to act like she's the 'bigg3st f4n evah' and trout. Trying to talk to me about it and being all "Omg. Like oooommggg, I can't believe it, Robb is just SO SO SO sexy, how can you even like anyone else in that show but Robb. Who is Jaqen? What's that?" SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET HODOR REFERENCES and I just feel like throwing an Ygritte at her to tell her "YOU KNOW NOTHING"
:doublecolbert:
I'm just a terrible human being, aren't I?
How do you not get Hodor references?
It is the most self-contained, self-explanatory smurfing reference on the planet.
She probably doesn't realize Hodor is all he could say.
Because she's what I call a 'Hipster Douchebag Fan'
Likes things that are niche to make a statement about how niche and nerdy she is when really she isn't.
I am bloody on one tonight. Saucer of milk for Locky, immediately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locky
To be fair, as much as I love GoT, it really is accessible for everyone. And it lets anyone feel "nerdy" because of its popularity.
Two seasons later...
"What's the name of that guy who says 'hodor' all the time? Is that all he can say, or...?" --Locky's pal.
She was the same with The Hunger Games. I had read them before we moved in, and I knew she enjoyed Harry Potter and (God forbid) Twilight, so I offered her my copy of the books. I told her what it was about - "Oh, that doesn't really sound like my thing tbh..." as SOOON as the trailer is released she's all like "OMG I LOVE THE HUNGER GAMES."
She is that person.
As for the Hodor thing... she actually spells it as Hordor.
Anyway, I'm putting my claws away now because we've been on good terms lately, and besides her annoying fan-ness there's nothing else bugging me about her right now.
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Disturbing.
I realised what this season is missing. King Robert. Dude was easily the best character. :(
It helps if you listen to this as you view:Quote:
Originally Posted by Locky
Don't ruin Barbra Streisand for me!