The reasons why FFVII gamers can choose to ignore The Compilation if they wish

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

And herein is revealed the fatal flaw in your plan. We don't care what you think. Your opinion is, to be frank, meaningless.

Opinion is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Whether or not you like or dislike the compilation, whether you think FF games should never have sequels, or think they should have more of them is, in fact, irrelevant. None of it changes the fact that the compilation is part of the continuity.

So, please, stop trying to bombard us with emotional appeals and simply stick with the objective data. It can only improve your credibility.

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like my credibility could be improved by the likes of you! :lol:

established fact #1: the compilation is canon because square said so

established fact #2: the compilation does not correlate from FF7

established fact #3: the compilation is major retcon

established fact #4: no matter what kind of retcon lack of correlation
bollocks you try to pull off with your own work, some people will still stand by you

established fact #5: for some people, common sense / personal enjoyment / artistic integrity, will never be as good as rulebooks or objective data

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Originally Posted by Paul

like my credibility could be improved by the likes of you! :lol:

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I'm not the one damaging your credibility. You are.

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established fact #1: the compilation is canon because square said so

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This is true, based on the nature of what canon is. However, it is bad form that you've basically reduced this entire discussion to sound bites devoid of proof.

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established fact #2: the compilation does not correlate from FF7

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Quite bad form, as this is an unsourced claim, not an established fact.

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established fact #3: the compilation is major retcon

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This is also a claim. You need to support this claim.

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established fact #4: no matter what kind of retcon lack of correlation
bollocks you try to pull off with your own work, some people will still stand by you

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See, you're getting into emotional appeals again. You're supposed to be avoiding those.

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established fact #5: for some people, common sense / personal enjoyment / artistic integrity, will never be as good as rulebooks or objective data

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Because, y'know what? It usually smegging isn't. Opinions mean jack :skull::skull::skull::skull: next to hard data. Your entire argument thus far has been based on emotional appeals to how you'd like it to be, rather than what the facts are saying. Even your "established facts" are emotional appeals, claims without substance, and veiled character attacks.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I'm not the one damaging your credibility. You are.

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no the point i was making here, is that you implied by agreeing with you, that my credibility would improve. i put it to you that my credibility is better for disagreeing with you, or just generally better anyway. and by agreeing with you i'd be on a slippery slope.

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This is true, based on the nature of what canon is. However, it is bad form that you've basically reduced this entire discussion to sound bites devoid of proof.

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irrelevant

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Quite bad form, as this is an unsourced claim, not an established fact.

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rufus lives, sephiroth now enjoys black lipstick, lots of other concepts have been altered but i can't be arsed going through each one because it means i'd have to watch that nightmare over again

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This is also a claim. You need to support this claim.

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k i will. the story of advent children, in places, does not follow correctly from that of FF7. i don't have the time, nor am i bored or lonely enough to go around digging up the details, anyone who has seen AC KNOWS THIS IS TRUE even if they LIKE IT. therefore, the changes are "RET CON"

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See, you're getting into emotional appeals again. You're supposed to be avoiding those.

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you sir, are one of the most arrogant and patronising human beings i have ever had the misfortune to disagree with on the internet. do you have credibility? how? who gave it? do they have it themselves to give it? do not be afraid of the answers.

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Because, y'know what? It usually smegging isn't. Opinions mean jack :skull::skull::skull::skull: next to hard data. Your entire argument thus far has been based on emotional appeals to how you'd like it to be, rather than what the facts are saying. Even your "established facts" are emotional appeals, claims without substance, and veiled character attacks.

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hahaha. you're a classic, mate. go get laid. there is no rulebook for that, though.. might find it difficult.

anyway no more personal wars in this thread, i'm out bye. you can have the last word, i'm sure it'll be boring.

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rufus lives, sephiroth now enjoys black lipstick, lots of other concepts have been altered but i can't be arsed going through each one because it means i'd have to watch that nightmare over again

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There is no indication at the end of FF7 that Rufus either lives or dies. It's left open-ended, so that is not a contradiction. And it's the nature of storytelling to have your villains survive circumstances that would kill people in real life (just look at how often Dr. Doom's come back to menace the FF). As for Sephiroth's black lipstick, I have no idea where your sourcing that but the FF7 graphics are so limited that the characters don't even have lips to wear lipstick on.

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anyone who has seen AC KNOWS THIS IS TRUE even if they LIKE IT

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I've seen AC, but I must confess I never gave enough of a toss about FF7 to notice such things. And even if there were gaping plot holes, it would still be canon, by sheer definition.

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hahaha. you're a classic, mate. go get laid. there is no rulebook for that, though.. might find it difficult.

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Wow, that's not even a veiled character attack!

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Originally Posted by Paul

no the point i was making here, is that you implied by agreeing with you, that my credibility would improve. i put it to you that my credibility is better for disagreeing with you, or just generally better anyway. and by agreeing with you i'd be on a slippery slope.

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No, you can still disagree and have credibility. Just not the way you are engaged in it.

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irrelevant

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Not at all. The nature of what canon is and how it operates is entirely relevant.

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rufus lives,

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Wheras he was previously unconfirmed. Fake deaths are an RPG cliche.

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sephiroth now enjoys black lipstick,

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How is this a retcon?

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lots of other concepts have been altered but i can't be arsed going through each one because it means i'd have to watch that nightmare over again

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Concession accepted.

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k i will. the story of advent children, in places, does not follow correctly from that of FF7. i don't have the time, nor am i bored or lonely enough to go around digging up the details, anyone who has seen AC KNOWS THIS IS TRUE even if they LIKE IT. therefore, the changes are "RET CON"

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This is not substantiating a claim. Concession accepted.

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you sir, are one of the most arrogant and patronising human beings i have ever had the misfortune to disagree with on the internet. do you have credibility? how? who gave it? do they have it themselves to give it? do not be afraid of the answers.

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Intellectual honesty gives me credibility. Also, Ad Hom. Bad form.

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hahaha. you're a classic, mate. go get laid. there is no rulebook for that, though.. might find it difficult.

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Took you longer than expected to bring that one up, but in the end, you did bring it up. Seriously, kid. Running off while tossing insults over your shoulder fools no one.

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anyway no more personal wars in this thread, i'm out bye. you can have the last word, i'm sure it'll be boring.

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If this is the grand sum of what you intended to bring to the table, good riddance, and concession accepted on everything.

thanks guys, it's been a pleasure. i look forward to next time.

And here I thought you were gonna let me have the last word.

Why is is that most every time someone says "I'm leaving, you can have the last word", they come back to get the last word?

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Originally Posted by Paul

you sir, are one of the most arrogant and patronising human beings i have ever had the misfortune to disagree with on the internet.

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So true.

But you forgot to say "hypocrite".

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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Originally Posted by Paul

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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Why? Just because i disagree with you? Grow up.

You know, we'll never reach an agreement because it's all a matter of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Paul

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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:skull::skull::skull::skull:, man, you really do want to have the last word, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

You know, we'll never reach an agreement because it's all a matter of opinion.

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No. It's not. This is a matter of canon, and canon is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of official fiat.

I won't even bother repeating myself again...

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Paul

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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Why? Just because i disagree with you? Grow up.

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actually, i was referring to myself as a hypocrite, saying i must be all of those things to recognise it in somebody else.

but it's clear that i've already been stereotyped as some sort of forum n00b who is wrong no matter what, so it's cool guys keep it up whatever.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

No. It's not. This is a matter of canon, and canon is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of official fiat.

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it seems to me you are obsessed with squaresoft's vision, and your own, or other people's interpretation or enjoyment from the games comes secondary. i find it amusing that you accuse me of being over emotional, yet you yourself are completely cold. the only reason we are even debating in this thread, and that this thread has reached page 5, is because (as has already been said) FF7 at one time, meant an awful lot to an awful lot of people.

now you can say "square decided to change all that, and make it canon" and yes, you're right, it's canon (i admitted that a few pages ago, but i was still getting the "OMG IST' CAONN!!!1111" replies for a while...). but what is and isn't canon, to me, isn't as important as people's experiences and enjoyment of the game. squaresoft have the authority to do whatever they want with this, but Crystal is right. at the end of the day it's the opinion of the fans (either way), that really matters. not squaresoft. without the fans, there is no squaresoft and there is no final fantasy. they pay the money, and ultimately it is their experience of the game that is the only rewarding thing to be taken from this whole videogame industry.

:skull : : skull: : skull:

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Originally Posted by Paul

but it's clear that i've already been stereotyped as some sort of forum n00b who is wrong no matter what, so it's cool guys keep it up whatever.

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Actually, what is clear is that you're seeking to find an excuse aside from your own behavior for your treatment.

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it seems to me you are obsessed with squaresoft's vision, and your own, or other people's interpretation or enjoyment from the games comes secondary.

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And it seems to me that you really smegging enjoy making straw men of my position.

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i find it amusing that you accuse me of being over emotional,

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Another really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. I did not say you were over emotional, I said you were attempting to employ emotional appeals.

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yet you yourself are completely cold. the only reason we are even debating in this thread, and that this thread has reached page 5, is because (as has already been said) FF7 at one time, meant an awful lot to an awful lot of people.

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Which is completely irrelevant to whether or not it has been retconned and whether or not those retcons stand as canon.
And to be frank, most of the reason why this thread reached 5 pages is because Charcoal insisted on engaging in a debate without comprehending the terms of the debate.

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now you can say "square decided to change all that, and make it canon" and yes, you're right, it's canon (i admitted that a few pages ago, but i was still getting the "OMG IST' CAONN!!!1111" replies for a while...). but what is and isn't canon, to me, isn't as important as people's experiences and enjoyment of the game.

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Then you shouldn't be in this debate in the first place. You should be in a thread about people's experiences of the game, instead.

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squaresoft have the authority to do whatever they want with this, but Crystal is right. at the end of the day it's the opinion of the fans (either way), that really matters. not squaresoft. without the fans, there is no squaresoft and there is no final fantasy. they pay the money, and ultimately it is their experience of the game that is the only rewarding thing to be taken from this whole videogame industry.

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Yes, but it is not the fans who make the story. If it was, we're have the Aerith revivication version of FF7. We'd have the Jenova possessed Sephy version of FF7.
Also, you are employing a rather massive logical disconnect in the above.