Final Fantasy VII: Overrated?

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Originally Posted by Momiji

You just don't know when to quit, do you?

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The person who says, everytime, that is not going to post here anymore, but always returns for more, is you... Not me.

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I didn't say that. Don't make up false quotes and say I said it. I didn't say it was overrated because 'it have many spin-offs' as you fabricated, but because it got undeserved attention, which is solely my opinion-- which as I will say yet again is the point of this thread. It's pretty pitiful if you have to make things up and say other people said it.

Furthermore, I don't bash FFVII 'because it's overrated'. I bash it because I don't like it. QED. End of point. I'm done discussing this. I wasn't even going to post again in here until I saw that you misquoted me.

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It wasn't a literal quote, but it was what you was saying, basicaly.
Here, let me remember you:

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Originally Posted by Momiji

I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

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Remember now?
Your main argument here, is that FFVII is overrated because of the fanbase that would pay for whatever FFVII-game(whatever spin-off) comes out.

That's what you said. Don't deny the undeniable.


And in this same post, you practicaly insulted everyone who ever bought a FFVII spin-off.
Nice job. :rolleyes2

That quote doesn't say that its overrated because of spinoffs Crystal. In that quote its read more like the way crappy spinoffs are bought reconfirms his belief that the game is overrated. Notice how he lists some things before it. Oh and no where in that quote does it say "FFVII is overrated because ______". It says, "I don't like FFVII because ________".

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

That quote doesn't say that its overrated because of spinoffs Crystal. In that quote its read more like the way crappy spinoffs are bought reconfirms his belief that the game is overrated. Notice how he lists some things before it. Oh and no where in that quote does it say "FFVII is overrated because ______". It says, "I don't like FFVII because ________".

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Thank you, Boko.

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Originally Posted by Yaridovich

All I'm trying to say is that VII's 3D-ness wasn't as big an influence as some make it out to have been. 3D RPGs would've come about whether or not VII was 3D just by virtue of other [popular; going with popular games here] games such as Mario 64 or Zelda: OoT.

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Just because the PSX allowed developers to make games in 3D it does not follows that every developer would make their games that way. Likewise, just because there were already games in 3D it doesn’t mean that VII would be that way as well. Square could have easily made VII a gradual improvement over VI instead of a radical one. It would have been a game like Lunar or Suikoden, with the same but improved 2D graphics and sprites. Even if it did go to 3D, it could have made VII like a Mario 64 (Zelda was released after VII), in 3D but smaller and with no FMVs. In both cases Square would have remained with Nintendo as it was going to be.

But they didn’t and went for something bigger and revolutionary, doing something that no of the previous FFs (or RPG) had done before and eventually transcending the limits of a medium (the N64 cartridge). Not even the series main “rival”, Dragon Warrior, did as much with its seventh entry in 2000 for the Playstation. The fact that VII was released for Playstation and not for the N64 was one of, if not the main factor that lead to the failure of that console and the triumph of the Playstation.

VII’s “3D-ness” when you compare it to I-VI was a radical change from the previous games and it paved the way for what we see in VIII-XII, which have been gradual improvements over what VII did very much as II-VI were gradual improvements over the first game. VII marks a watershed in the series in particular and in RPGs in general. Note how after VII was released a bunch of RPGs mimicking what VII did start to pop up: Legend of Legaia, Legend of Dragoon, etc. VII was like the iPod of its generation, it broke new ground in the genre and then nearly everyone followed suit.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.

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I am sorry but I don’t see how that comparison works. You are shifting the focus from the game itself and how it is built to a particular button from the controller of the console that it uses. By that logic, a flight simulator which I can play in my computer with the keyboard suddenly becomes revolutionary because it allows me to plug in a joystick to play it. I know that this is not what you think; it is just an example to show a different perspective of what you said. Something like that has no real impact on the game itself, unlike a change from 2D to 3D graphics.


Egami

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Originally Posted by Egami

Just because the PSX allowed developers to make games in 3D it does not follows that every developer would make their games that way.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.

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I am sorry but I don’t see how that comparison works. You are shifting the focus from the game itself and how it is built to a particular button from the controller of the console that it uses. By that logic, a flight simulator which I can play in my computer with the keyboard suddenly becomes revolutionary because it allows me to plug in a joystick to play it. I know that this is not what you think; it is just an example to show a different perspective of what you said. Something like that has no real impact on the game itself, unlike a change from 2D to 3D graphics.


Egami

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Sony was convinced that 3D was so big and revolutionary that nobody would want to play a 2D game ever again. They put a great deal of pressure on 3rd parties to only create games in 3D. Final Fantasy VII HAD to be in 3D, whether Square wanted it to be or not, as long as it was going to be on the PlayStation.

Also, the analog control stick was VERY revolutionary for video games and has a big impact on games designed for it. Try playing Super Mario 64 and then Super Mario 64 DS and you'll see why.

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Originally Posted by Overdose

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.

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Aside from all the other countless qualities that make FFVII revolutionary and a great game, the point of the 3D graphics was that it was revolutionary for the SERIES, not games in general. That's a big distinction many people are CONVENIENTLY forgetting.

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Bubsy 3D was SOOO revolutionary! How amazing was that game? So was Duke Nukem 3D! Holy crap! And Simpsons Wrestling! And how about Dragon Quest VIII?

If doing something new within the context of the series is revolutionary, that word is getting thrown around way to much these days.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Sony was convinced that 3D was so big and revolutionary that nobody would want to play a 2D game ever again. They put a great deal of pressure on 3rd parties to only create games in 3D. Final Fantasy VII HAD to be in 3D, whether Square wanted it to be or not, as long as it was going to be on the PlayStation.

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Actually Roto, my initial point about the transition that Egami and I were talking about has nothing to do with 3D - it has to do with CG pre-rendered backgrounds. If FFVII was an evolution, it probably would've used 3d tiles/blocks to construct the backgrounds, and maintained the static overhead view. A revolution overthrows what came before it. The developers did away with tiles completely and instead opted for 2d illustrations, on which the models could be tilted in any way, in order to achieve a cinematic use of the camera, utilizing different angles to portray the scene.

Which is another pretty revolutionary device VII introduced to the series - the camera as a storytelling tool.

Also, I'm doubtful as to where you're getting this notion that Sony "put a great deal of pressure" on developers to use 3d. The first legacy of kain game, a huge hit and a major franchise for Sony, was in 2d. Dragon Quest VII, released 7 years into the system's life cycle, was in 2d.

Also, if you played Dragon Quest VIII, you would actually find that 3d allowed it to do alot of things for the first time that had been foreign to the series.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post, but this is just silly:

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Also, if you played Dragon Quest VIII, you would actually find that 3d allowed it to do alot of things for the first time that had been foreign to the series.

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Dragon Quest VIII was anything but revolutionary. It was 3D, but it's still the same formula they've been milking since DQ 1. It was the first (and so far only) 3D game in the series, but it couldn't have possibly felt more stale.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

[COLOR="Silver"]I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post,

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Could you at least address the "forcing developers to go 3d" thing?

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Originally Posted by Roto13

but this is just silly:

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Also, if you played Dragon Quest VIII, you would actually find that 3d allowed it to do alot of things for the first time that had been foreign to the series.

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Dragon Quest VIII was anything but revolutionary. It was 3D, but it's still the same formula they've been milking since DQ 1. It was the first (and so far only) 3D game in the series, but it couldn't have possibly felt more stale.

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I never said revolutionary, but off the top of my head I could come up with 3 things which it added:

1) The world map was one of the most beautiful and interesting I've ever seen in any game, much less your traditional RPG. Even the changing of the daytime was captivating to watch, and it made going out and exploring every nook and cranny not only productive to get hidden treasure, but fun to explore and enjoy the more secluded areas.

2) It added more complexity to and made more noteworthy dungeons than could be possible in 2d, especially (SPOILER)Rapthorne's Castle.

3) Showing the characters acting on the battle screen. New to DQ nonetheless.

I could go on. Did you play/beat DQVIII?

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Originally Posted by Roto13

They put a great deal of pressure on 3rd parties to only create games in 3D. Final Fantasy VII HAD to be in 3D, whether Square wanted it to be or not, as long as it was going to be on the PlayStation.

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That was probably the case for some developers but it was not the case for Square when it came to developing VII in 3D. VII was going to be another 2D SNES game like VI but the project was pushed to the side when the company was developing Chrono Trigger. After they decided to resume work in the game, which was before the N64 was released, they started to make it in 3D because they didn't want the series to lag behind in this area. They did a SGI demo with characters from VI. The size of the project demanded the use of CD-ROMs and it was because Nintendo decided to go with cartridges that Square announced it would release VII for Playstation. I don't think there was pressure from Sony on this one as far as making the game in 3D goes.

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.

When I first played FFVII back when it came out I didn't care about it being 3D. I just thought of it as a great game with good music and a grand storyline. Anyways all the people that say its only popular cause of its 3d-ness is not true. Some gamers though it was not traditional to the 2D graphics and hated it.

Tifa's magnificent boobs is what sold 10 million copies of Final Fantasy 7.
Know your audience. 1997's virgin teenage boy.

Now it's 2008 -- one version for emo & other for virgin androgyne ... sigh.

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Originally Posted by unfinished fantasy

Tifa's magnificent boobs is what sold 10 million copies of Final Fantasy 7.
Know your audience. 1997's virgin teenage boy.

Now it's 2008 -- one version for emo & other for virgin androgyne ... sigh.

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Lord knows I bought Super Mario RPG for Valentina's boobs. :shifty:

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Originally Posted by Roto13

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.

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But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

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Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

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Originally Posted by Roto13

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.

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But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

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That was kinda his point :o