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Even though there's a scene in the original game which is the toned down version of a scene where Cloud and Tifa walked out of the chocobo stable together, and in which they exchange 'risque, mature' dialogue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni-Odin
I mean hell, if we're talking about 'never hinted', where the hell are the 'hints' that he even had any interest in Aerith?
Support your first principles first.
I'm undecided.
I think it was pretty settled later on in the game (when Cloud piece his memories together and realize who he really is) that his affection is for Tifa alone.
Aerith was a dear friend to him,but he was never in love with her.
It's pretty obvious to me,really.I don't understand this whole debate.
Oh hello! Sorry this isn't exactly a prompt response...
Well Ryu, I think your argument is fairly EDIT: good at this point, but I do want to respond and address a few of things.
Sorry, this is what I mistook as you saying that... I thought by "both versions" you were referring to the highwind scene:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
Anyway, how much weight do you really want to place on that book when it was compiled by people unrelated to the original creators, published by a derivative company of Square, and contains no commentary/analyses like the UO has? The editors just transcribed a playthrough of the game, and took some screenshots.Quote:
Memorial Album, a game script released from that time, which shows Tifa's date and the high highwind scene. In both versions.
And they took Tifa as the Gold Saucer date? The default for the date is Aeris -- You get Aeris in the event of a point tie, the UO confirms that the Aeris date is more likely, and the UO also suggests that it is the more relevent date to the surrounding story. Also, I believe that the guides since then have made a point to include screenshots of both dates.
I'm acknowledging now that a lot of my responses below are basically bollocks if you take the memorial albums as scripture, because in them I treat both highwind scenes with equal weight.
Your latter suggestion is definately the best way to fit the Crisis Core ending to the original game. And yes I will admit a lot of the issues are minor. But to me they add up, and I'd really rather there not be any compromises. A lot of things seem to point to carelessness on the part of Square-Enix when handling the scenarios, and the fact that you have to make all these little stretches in order to accomodate the inconsistencies tends to alienate me.Quote:
Or, OR, Cloud can simply be repeating things said to him by Zack and not be coherent. Or even he becomes lucid for a single moment before sliding back into dementia. Hard to accept, I know. Seriously, these are the giant gaping plot holes you hate the compilation for?
Actually yeah, considering they bring back the main antagonist who was assumed to have been defeated for 17 years. Now it doesn't really bother me personally so much, but I would totally understand if a hardcore FFIV fan was upset about the sequal and didn't accept it into their perception of the story.Quote:
And the end doesn't mean no sequel. By your logic FFIV:TA is doing the same thing.
I had meant that Square-Enix left Sephiroth's final line open-ended so that they could bring him back again in another sequal if they wanted to and make up some other unforseen reason to explain it.Quote:
And Sephiroth can't 'come back at any time'
I guess at the end of the day it's just my opinion then. I really can't tell you you're wrong for accepting the Compilation anyway really.Quote:
and I'm aware there are inconsistencies, but smurf, compared to SW they're nada.
And I really do appreciate it by the way... I doubt many other people would take the time.Quote:
I'll play your game, yes.Quote:
Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.
2003 was the year of the first AC trailers showing up.... just an estimate.Quote:
Not sure why 2003 is the magic cutoff date, though.
Now on to the meat and potatoes:
First off I need to establish something here. A lot of you folks are saying that the Dating Mechanics only reflect on Tifa's and Aeris' feelings for Cloud and determine only how they act towards Cloud, but never the other way around. This makes little sense to begin with because we all know that both Aeris and Tifa continuously feel affection for Cloud. Besides that, it is shown otherwise that the date mechanics DO work both ways; they DO reflect Cloud's feelings and determine his actions. They show the mutual (b)romantic closeness between Cloud and the other characters. Take a look:
from Terence Fergusson's Date Mechanics Guide:
Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:
"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)
(How could this action make Tifa like Cloud less if she isn't even present in the scene?)
If Cloud is chosen as the Don's date:
"Yes, his name's Barret..." (+5 Barret)
(How does this in any way reflect Barret's feelings for Cloud?)
When Marlene tells you about Aeris:
"I don't know" (-3 Aeris, +3 Tifa)
"Let's hope so" (+3 Aeris, -3 Tifa)
(Same deal here; Cloud's words end with Marlene, and yet Aeris's and Tifa's values are affected.)
This is also evident in the end-of-disk 2 Highwind scene: Tifa comes into the scene acting in the same way towards Cloud regardless of which version you get. But depending Tifa's point value, it is Cloud who may act two different ways towards Tifa. More on the Highwind Scene later.
First, A word on what Cloud's subconscious tells Tifa in the Lifestream:Quote:
Narratively, why affirm THESE memories, which all feature Tifa, and not completely ancillary memories? Why have Cloud repeat his desire to impress Tifa specifically, to state that he'll definitely be please as punch to learn that she did become interest if it is purely fillial? Hell, why tell us of his interest AT ALL when learning of his true self if it's irrelevant to who he is now?Quote:
They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.
Cloud's hidden Mt Nibel memory and old crush on Tifa are personified in the Lifestream sequence in the form of the little Cloud. Little Cloud can only speak for himself concerning "back then," and his statement to Tifa "tell him later; it'll probably make him happy" is based on Little Cloud's expectations for Adult Cloud, not definite knowledge of what Adult Cloud becomes. It only makes sense that Cloud as a kid would have expected himself to be very happy later on should Tifa pay attention to him.
A lot more on Cloud's past later.
Yes, actually.Quote:
Quote:
Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.
Quote:
Unsympathetically?
Coolly? Does not Care?
Sir, you're talking out of your ass and I feel no hesitation in saying it. Seriously, what makes you think that at this moment, with Cloud apologies for what he's done to everyone, Cloud would be such an insufferable jackass as to act in the way you describe. Are you just that smurfing desperate to refuse to admit that the game itself showed him expressing concern and sympathy to Tifa's emotions? Are you just that adamant about shipping him pink?
You're saying a lot of nothing here, and shot yourself in the foot, too. You've admitted that As Cloud goes on, and is reminded of things LIKE his promise and regains various memories, he becomes more and more like himself, more sympathetic, more kind, etc. And then you say that he is the biggest jackass in the world at the tail end of all this. So let's look back- Cloud, not quite himself, does not have access to his memories, acts a bit of an asshole. Tifa reminds him of the promise, and he suddenly becomes a lot nicer to people. Time goes on, his shell cracks, his memories return, he's nicer to people. Why then wouldn't his crush also return either now or at some point? Why would he act like a Jackass to Tifa while apologizing to Red or Barrett at the same time? Is he being unsympathetic and cool to them too?Quote:
Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.
It seems you missed the whole point of what I was saying above. I'm trying to make the argument that Cloud, while he did not have access to his memories, was acting in accord with his true self LONG before the Northern Crater and Lifestream events (like by the end of Disk 1). Perhaps "coldly" would have been a better word than "coolly," but I NEVER implied that Cloud was lapsing into his 'old jerkish/cocky self' at the Northern Crater. It was a complete mental breakdown for Cloud. Perhaps his mindset is so difficult to idenitify because it is the only time it occurs in the game: It is where Cloud becomes complete as a true clone of Sephiroth -- He denies his humanity, breaks down, and although he is concsiously in control of his actions, Jenova's will has become completely integrated into his intentions. With this and his following actions, I cannot understand how one would believe that Cloud was being truly sincere with his apologies at the Northern Crater. After all, he was in the process of betraying all of his 'friends,' including Tifa. And despite Cloud's "I hope you find the real Cloud someday" statement, it is shown soon afterwards that he is actually quite unconcerned with Tifa's dreams for the future: he gives Sephiroth the black materia so that meteor could be summoned and KILL EVERYONE, including Tifa, before she would ever get the chance to meet the boy of her memories and live happily ever after. Cloud's action in giving away the Black Materia completely undoes his earlier statements. THEREFORE, Cloud's apology cannot be considered evidence towards any romantic feelings for Tifa.
I'm also saying that regardless of Cloud's past feelings for Tifa, he starts with a completely clean slate at the beginning of the game due to his memory loss. Throughout the course of Disk one, depending on the player, Cloud can either redevelop feelings for Tifa or develop feelings for Aeris. (Or both or neither, but most of us here aren't shooting for that.) Despite the fact that Cloud is assuming a false life, his feelings from Disk 1 stick with him even throughout Disk 2. Those feelings are what truly determine how he is affected by the Lifestream Sequence, and what his feelings are at the end of the game. The affirmation of his childhood crush does NONE of this. I know this probably sounds ridiculous to you right now, but hear me out.
I know you asked me, why affirm these memories if they weren't important to what Cloud is now. I think we don't see eye to eye on this is possibly because we also disagree on the true function of the Lifestream sequence. I believe that the purpose of the Lifestream Event is for Cloud to examine his forgotten past and memories; to prove by his hidden memories that he is human and not just created 5 years prior, so that he can recover from his coma and regain confidence in his humanity; to set his memory straight so that Sephiroth/Jenova can no longer manipulate him; and to get on with his life. You, on the other hand, seem to indicate that the the goal of the Lifestream Event is all of this, but more importantly, for Cloud to reaffirm his past/forgotten memories to be the whole essence of his true self; to assume the role of his past self in his personality and motivations; and to discard his more recent self/personality because it was based on a red herring.
So fundamentally speaking, I differentiate Cloud's Memories as a separate aspect from his Self/Personality; you consider his Memories to be completely integral to his Self/Personality. I'm sure we could get into an entire argument over who's right, but I'll try to explain my views well here:
To begin with, I interpret differently the scene where Tifa reminds Cloud of the Promise at the beginning of the game. Tifa's memory teaches Cloud to be receptive of other people, so the uncaring/cocky-mercenary persona he has been carrying fades in favor of a more natural sense of empathy. I'm sure Cloud is fully aware that he's softening up, though-- it is a choice that he makes, not a subconsiouis change in character for him. (There were no white-screen flashes, no mysterious words speaking to his mind during this scene.) Also, make no mistake: this is the only time that Cloud dramatically shifts to become 'nicer' as a guy.
The strong/confident illusion based on Zack, however, takes much longer to fade.
I'd like to revise my earlier statement, which basically said that by the end of Disk 1 Cloud had completely ditched the Zack persona and acts completely like his past self. Simple observation shows that this statment is flawed. In reality, I think that by the end of Disk 1 it was more like half-and-half. He still acts a lot like Zack in his mannerisms; however, he has lapses in confidence, his subconsious self increasingly influences him, etc... SO with the Lifestream sequence Cloud reaffirms his old memories and learns the truth about his past self and motivations. But does Cloud really go back to being just his old self after the Lifestream? NO! Cloud's true past self was a weak guy with low self esteem and a cynical outlook! Even though he was living a lie, Cloud learned WAY too much about strength and confidence during the events of the game to go back to being like he was before. So he simply acknowledges his past weakness, and in doing so, he rejects that path and finally becomes Strong. He goes right back to being like the Cloud we know and love from mid-Disk 1, except this time his strength and confidence are not based on illusions. THEREFORE, The Lifestream sequence wasn't the determining factor for Cloud's persona; it sorted out his memories so that he could collectively assess all of his true experiences, both recent and old, and reshape himself as he pleased. If so much about him was different between Nibelheim and the end of the game, if so much had changed within him due to his recent experiences, can't his potential feelings of affection be affected as well?
So Cloud's past feelings for Tifa are just that: a part of his past. An important part, no doubt, but not the entire essence of his later personality. The memory becomes relevent again to Cloud's motivations later only if it turns out he had already developed feelings for Tifa in disk 1.
Even this in itself is probably difficult to fathom since you believe that the Lifestream sequence invariably reawakens Cloud's past affection for Tifa.---after all, you might say, there is only one version of the Lifestream sequence. HOWEVER, the two different versions of the highwind sequence indicate that depending on the feelings he develops in Disk 1, Cloud can come away from the lifestream in 2 very different ways.
In the High highwind scene, Cloud reaffirms The Promise, tells Tifa he hopes to find the answers of the planet together with her, that Tifa taught him this in the Lifestream, and that "nothing's changed" concerning his feelings for her. In the Low highwind scene however, Cloud omits mentioning The Promise, plans on finding the answers alone, doesn't claim to have learned anything about this in the Lifestream with Tifa, and doesn't mention his past with Tifa -- implying that things have changed in his mind since then.
Also with 'hearts calling out to each other':
Tifa "...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."
"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."
High version:
Cloud "Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me."
Cloud "You were calling me back in from the stream of consciousness in the Lifestream."
"Yeah" implies agreement.
"At that time" means he specifically remembers when he was calling out to Tifa.
Low version:
Cloud "I see."
Cloud "I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice."
"I see." ---Note the contrast. Implies taking Tifa's word for it; but not necessarily remembering either way. (He's not going to tell Tifa she's lying...)
"I think I've heard it, too" means "I think I heard you calling out to me, in the same way that you described to have heard me."
The High version indicates that Cloud's already present feelings for Tifa were strengthened in the Lifesteam, while the Low version indicates that Cloud does not have feelings for Tifa and that the Lifestream did nothing to reawaken them. And what determines the events of this disk 2 scene? The developments made by the player during disk 1. Quite a far cry from "all implications of having a choice in the matter of Cloud's romantic interest made utterly null and void" later on.
While we've been in the mood for bringing the official English translation under speculation, I'd like to take a look at this scene as well. It always seemed kind of sketchy to me: First Cloud says that his feud with Sephiroth is more important to him than saving the planet, but soon after he contradicts himself and says that he's fighting to save the planet and that's that. Now I'm no scholor in Japanese. So I looked up Cloud's 'very personal memory' line in Cathy Okada's translation of FFVII (which predated, and is generally superior to, the official translation), and this is what I found:Quote:
'Very personal memory' has positive connotations. At the very least it's not spoken of in any way the vitriol Sephiroth is otherwise spoken of. Meanwhile, Cloud's memories re: Tifa- that tell us of his motivation as a person are called Private and Tender Memories. After this point, the next time Cloud even mentions the word memory is when he discusses his motivation for fighting. Further, everyone leaves to find what they are fighting for. Cloud and Tifa stay behind. In both versions, Cloud speaks of everyone having an irreplacable something
they are fighting for. This does not suggest blood feud with Sephiroth. This suggests something he does not wish to lose to Meteor.
Cid: We might not come back. We might start thinking: Heck, the Meteo is this close, so why bother!? Just give up and end your life easy!
Claude: I know why I'm here. Like I said, this fight is personal to all of us... and I want you to find your reason because you can never fight without a cause. If you don't come back,...I can't force you.
This translation of the scene seems much more consistent what Cloud states earlier... here he is referring back to what he had said about his personal motivation, which is to settle the score with Sephiroth. So it looks like 'very personal memory' is more of a translation error anyway.
I guess it depends on the camera angle. At the first shot, her hand looks vertical. At the first-person angle, it looks 45 degrees/downward. Whatever, though... it's obvious no one on this board wants to see this point argued out and they're all probably more sane than I am.Quote:
No she doesn't. She has her hand evenly vertical.Quote:
If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).
>The planet's answer....Quote:
I'm basing my knowledge of the original line based on the lack of pronouns and Tifa's reaction of 'Let's' go meet giving the first line context. The promised land for both of them can be with their fallen friend, can it not?
The Promised Land....
I think I can find her there.
>Yeah, let's go see her.
I wonder who did the translating for Reminiscence of FFVII (quoted above) from the AC dvd then... It's weird that the line would be translated two slightly different ways at two different times and yet both be wrong/misleading. But yes about the ambiguity of the original line as it stands... Am I right that a literal translation is "I think we will meet there // Yeah, let's meet there" ?
Well I'll agree, then, that it makes the scene neutral-ish rather than CxA-ish. Though in my personal opinion, the fact that Cloud thinks of 'meeting Aeris' as a significant part of his 'extreme happiness' must imply something, I'll admit it's probably bias and I'm not going to argue for it. That line is what nudged my opinion a bit in favor for CxA anyway, so overall, things seem a lot more neutral to me now.
You shifted your argument from "it takes Tifa to convince Cloud to go so it's CxT!" to "it takes his friends to convince Cloud to go so it's anti-CxA!" and I don't like it. Remember that Cloud is extremely nervous that he might do something terrible (i.e. hurt Aeris again) if he goes. He's obviously concerned with Aeris' well being, even if I feels he is incapable of going in person for fear of completely screwing up again. Going after her simply for the sake of getting his questions answered is subordinate.Quote:
Even better, it takes two people to convince him to do something you say he 'really wants to do.'Quote:
And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.
I was simply refuting your suggestion that they went after her just to get answers from her, when in reality they went out of concern.Quote:
Yes. So how does that make Cloud going special, again? And you're equivocating here, or just can't follow the discussion. We were talking about his heading after her in the communique..Quote:
The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.
With my earlier interpretation of the Lifestream sequence, that there are two different possibilities for Cloud afterward (either his memories are reaffirmed again in the form of affection, or they are just important to his past) based on cloud's (the player's) inclinations during disk 1, my interpretation of the above really isn't all that insane.Quote:
...And you're saying that the closing of an Arc- and arc started 15 years prior Cloud's time by the failure to save a girl from falling, a girl he had a crush on for the entire rest of his life until at least his intubation, and which was later reaffirmed when we finally get to learn and meet the real Cloud again- with the rescue of the girl the failure to rescue started the arc is just 'him doing what any true friend in that situation?' JUST? It's the oldest motivating factor we know of Cloud HAS. It's more than just being nice, it's coming full circle, with the promise, with his memories, in finally being the White Knight Tifa asked him to be, and doing it in time finally. There's romantic implications there whether Aerith went on the Date or Barret did.Quote:
I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.
There are actually two very separate arcs which are being confused as one: "The Promise" arc, which centers on TIFA's romantic wish for Cloud to be her White Knight, and the Mt Nibel arc which centers on Cloud feeling inferior because he was unable to save Tifa from falling.
'The promise,' arc, is narratively closed when Cloud and Tifa discover in the Lifestream that Cloud had indeed come for Tifa after Sephiroth struck her down. Yet "the promise" had never been a motivating factor for Cloud that day or ever before. In such a desperate situation, "the promise" - which Cloud was never really enthusiastic about anyway - was probably one of the last things on his mind; rather, his 'heroic' actions resulted because he cared for Tifa and wanted her to be safe.
Given this, you still might be inclined to say that Cloud privately wanted to be Tifa's (romantic) Hero, because of the Mt. Nibel failure. This is NOT the case, however, as evident in his initial lack of comprehension, then reluctance, when Tifa presented the idea at the well. So was the Mt Nibel failure arc and the desire to be Tifa's White Knight really ever a motivating factor for Cloud, then? Not really. In actuallity, the arc was never about Cloud thinking "I'm not worthy of Tifa unless I can protect her!" Rather, Cloud's real motivating factor and 'romantic dream' was simply to get Tifa to pay attention to him. The Mt. Nibel failure only escalated this already present mindset, in two ways: 1) It made Cloud feel weak and incapable. 2) It made Cloud think that his weakness prevented Tifa from noticing him. So there really was no change in the underlying motivation for Cloud concerning Tifa----although from then on he had an inferiority complex to deal with as well. He decided to use SOLDIER as a means to overcome his weakness and make Tifa like him. Of course this failed, yet Tifa begins noticing Cloud all the same. Mission accomplished. What is left of the arc, then, is simply Cloud's leftover memory of weakness for never being able to properly protect those who are close to him. So catching Tifa, then, resolves this without the necessity for romantic implications. When the arc closes, what is accomplished is NOT necessarily Cloud proving himself capable of being Tifa's white knight, but rather him proving that he is indeed now stronger in general as a person. And the segment is far too brief to be much more than icing on the cake of Cloud's character development. There's no "I finally caught you" // "You were always there..." kind of line. Rather, the scene quickly changes focus with Cloud immediately speaking distantly concerning the encounter he just had with Aeris.
(relevent caps of the ending for all to behold)Quote:
I love how you just invent things here. First, see T,C, and Barret, but Cloud is quite Close to Tifa, and there's quite a gap between him and Barret, and very little of one between him and Tifa. Later, right after Red XII speaks, Cloud, yes, is looking at him, but then immediately and quickly returns his attention to Tifa. Even when looking at Red he's still close to Tifa Next we see, Red's not in shot any longer, and still being close to Tifa.
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/fmvshots...ding/00132.jpg
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/fmvshots...ding/00154.jpg
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/fmvshots...ding/00155.jpg
Of all the aspects of your argument, I find this to be the weakest. Bottom line: You're taking a few disjointed, inconclusive, short sections of the ending, talking them up and glazing them with your bias to make it seem like they clearly imply romantic meaning when they really do not. It's just not good enough, man.
No, more like "defying the impossible" when it comes to the barriers of life and death. I'd like to think that the world became drastically different after the big white flash. That the planet takes away all that is bad and humanity is given a new vitality; Everyone goes to find their promised land in this new life. Seems more consistent with the game's overall theme... It's just me though; deadly diseases being spread around the world by the very thing that saved humanity is cool too.Quote:
Like being surrounded by friends, family, and the living woman he loves?Quote:
I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involve suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.
Quote:
And my point is that the original story of FF7 is based around a gigantic red herring, a reevaluation of Cloud based on said red herring, and that all implications of having a choice in the matter of Cloud's romantic interest made utterly null and void by the revelations of the lifestream sequence and the light it sheds on both previous and later actions.
yeah... you're probably right. peace out.
Welcome to reality Enigma. :D
This is like the fourth Clerith I've helped convert :P
Oh, me? heh heh. I'm still very in favor of CloudxAerith, for reasons I know that Clotis will never want to hear. But from (what I believe to be) an objective standpoint, I'll argue that Cloud's affection really was intended to be ambiguous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shishikabob
You'll never take me alive!!!
Silentengima, I was going to read that post. However, when I got half way down and scrolled to see how much left of your post there was, I said to hell it.
I'm more of a Cloud and Tifa kind of guy, but I certianly don't take it too seriously. I believe that Square left it fairly ambigous and did so for a reason. Thats all I'm adding to the discussion; I know not much.
Obviously not... I mean I don't know how you can see Cloud and Tifa shared their mutual feelings for each other and say "Square left it ambiguous". I mean they're living together and raising a family and Cloud said in CoT that he had Tifa with him and it was different before. I mean really, what more do you need? You KNOW Tifa loved Cloud at that point... mutual means he must have returned the feeling...Quote:
I know not much.
In FFVII sure, maybe, but after everything that's happened, I don't know how anyone can say that. I really don't, I mean what do you need a kiss? A hug? Why do you need those things when you can say it's possible he loved Aerith and he never did those things with her either.Quote:
But from (what I believe to be) an objective standpoint, I'll argue that Cloud's affection really was intended to be ambiguous.
When I said I know not much, I didn't mean I didn't know much, on contrary I've beaten VII so many times its a little said. I know the game pretty darn well, I also watch the movie often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shishikabob
What I meant was I know that my statment wasn't much, meaning lack of content, but thats all I was going to put in. I know all the parts in the story where Cloud and Tifa share rather tender moments (the airship, hell the lifestream bit). I merely threw that ambiguous thing out there to please the other side of the arguement and keep them from biting at my ankles. I firmly believe that Cloud and Tifa indeed have mutual feelings for each other and I've always believed that. It's funny that I try to avoid a debate and the person that calls me out is on the same side.
Speaking of which, why are you calling me out on this, I'm on your side.
Because you said it was ambiguous and it's not. :monster: Sorry didn't mean to offend I just don't understand the other side of the fence is all. And there's no need to say stuff to please anyone. You should be proud of what you know and what you like ^_^
I know... it'sQuote:
Silentengima, I was going to read that post. However, when I got half way down and scrolled to see how much left of your post there was, I said to hell it.
thorougha little excessive XD
These people do.Quote:
In FFVII sure, maybe, but after everything that's happened, I don't know how anyone can say that. I really don't, I mean what do you need a kiss? A hug?
(note: I do not associate myself with these people; they make a lot of decent points, some of which even makes the Compilation stuff seem ambiguous at times; but other things they say is just over-the-top in my opinion.)
Oh I know those people, the admin of that site is a friend of mine :P
Though I only see her on CxA so I'm not able to just outright ask or discuss love triangle stuffs with her.
But Cloud and Aerith never hugged or kissed either so... that one goes both ways really.
Its Tifa guys!!
BIG TITS WINS IT ALL!
Something from the Ultimania Omega:
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。
Translation from awesome person.
Cloud and Tifa official WANT or desire each other :DQuote:
ティファ = Tifa
クラウド = Cloud
に対する = toward
好感 = favoribility (affection value in this case)
度 = degree
高い = high
場合 = event...
飛空艇= airship
に残っ = left over (remain in this case, the "ni" says where they remained, airship in this case)
たふたり = two people
互い = each other
求める = to want/desire
気持ち = feeling
確かめ = confirmation
合う = This goes with above confirmation, meaning they confirmed with each other (a scene can confirm something for the viewers while characters involve do not know, this tells us it was confirmed between the characters)
Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."
Final Fantasy VII. End of Disc 2. Airship empty except for Cloud and Tifa. Might die fighting Sephiroth. Cloud had childhood crush on Tifa, and judging by the fact that Tifa still hung out with Cloud even though he was an outcast suggests that she might also have had a crush. So, do you honestly think there weren't any hugs or kisses that night? Especially with Tifa's question the next morning to everyone.
AC bamboozled everyone, but I reckon Cloud just felt guilty about Aerith's death and as such couldn't enjoy a healthy relationship with Tifa (as well as being an emo, whining git who made Squall look like a right old bag of sunlight).
So definitely Tifa.