two sephiroths

C: Why would Sephiroth call the others "traitors to the Planet" then? He kept referring to Jenova as "mother" and "such is the power of Jenova." He sounds and acts like he is deferring to something.

There are two answers to the question: why did Sephiroth say HE was going to become a god, not Jenova:

1. That "Sephiroth" as Jenova in the first place, or

2. This is pure speculation, but it's interesting: Jenova hated the Planet, hated those who kept her encased for 2000 years. Why would she bother to try to rule it? So, she wants it destroyed. She convinced Sephiroth to summon Meteor with a tale of becoming a god, which will destroy the world and all life on it, not giving a damn about Sephiroth.

I'd say we're definitely now facing a situation where the players have given more notice to the plot than its own writers and uncovered some things called plot holes.

Maybe not plot holes per se, but rather things which aren't completely clarified in the game itself. Just as Cloud and co. wouldn't have had a full grasp of the subtleties and intricacies of what they were dealing with, we too aren't provided with a complete overview of exactly what is going on. Unless we were told the story from the perspective of Jenova and Sephiroth, with full accounts of their thoughts and intentions, it'd be difficult to say exactly what happened with any certainty.
Speculation is interesting, but with a plot as complex as FFVII's it could be difficult to arrive at any firm conclusions, beyond what is specifically in the plot, or can be reliably inferred from it.
An absence of answers doesn't necessarily constitute a presence of holes.

Not necessarily, but probably, I think.

I'm just glad that these threads aren't banned like in the FFVIII forum.

To try and stop this becoming a discussion about a discussion, Raistlin I think your second point was actually quite a good idea. I also thought you were one of the people argueing AGAINST your first point :)

Anyone gonna try and explain why Jenova would let Seph push her around?

I've never thought of Jenova as being 'pushed around', but... she was sealed inside solid rock for two thousand years, then sealed inside a tank and used for experiments. Samples of her cells were extracted. Finally, her own 'son' cut off her head. Being dismembered like that is going to leave anyone feeling a little out of sorts.
I think Jenova was still in control of herself; Sephiroth was doing all kinds of nasty things in order to help her, but perhaps not because he was completely under her control. She needed his help - he was still relatively intact, so he could summon Meteor, control the 'Clones' and bring them to the Reunion, etc.

Yes, I think Sephiroth acted of his own free will. However, I think he deferred to his "mother" for answers.
I still think Jenova convinced Sephiroth to summon Meteor. That still leaves one question: why Sephy? It might have been because Jenova could not absorb the Lifestream like Sephiroth could, or that the "Sephiroth" you were chasing around was actually Jenova, or even that this was some mass-plot of Jenova's to ultimately destroy the Planet. Meh, who knows?

You guys are giving me a migraine @.@

I actually have a theory of my own:

The game wasn't given a stellar translation. Certain specific lines come to mind...... "Hmmm, so that's how you fooled them". I think what's likely is that certain subtleties were lost in translation, so details that were clear in the original story were ambiguous or not present in the English translation. Of course, this is just conjecture, but you gotta admit, it makes sense when you consider the various gramatical errors and the sentences that seemed completely non-sequitor.

I go along with the fact that bad translations added to the confusing plotline in some cases. I do think though that it was probably delibrately done so people like us would discuss and talk about it more and come up with the small plot details ourselves.

Duh...gee boss now im really confused: -

1) first of all raistlin stop talkin to people that aint there, it gettin worryin, there aint noone with the initials TC

2) jenova is weaker than sephiroth. he managed to cut off her head (altho she mightnt have been able to put up a fight) and hes much harder than her in fights. also he does posses the power to change his form whenever he like hence why you gotta fight him three times at the end.

3) whoever said sephiroth got all his informaton from dodgy/halftruth reports. thats a bloody good point.

4) jenova had no way of comunicating with sephiroth she was never awake/concious when near him. she was always out cold beit from chemicals or mako but whatever.

5) also kinda pointless and probabally wrong but has anyone thought that maybe she was so weak because the lifestream was slowly killing her while she was frozen in it for several thousand years. which is what happened to the clones (the mako in them destoyed thejenova cells leadin to their mentalness) (that was said in a thread a while ago youll have to check it yourself i cant find it.)

Okay Bizarro and Safer are a direct result of Jenova bonding with Sephiroth after the Synthesis battle. I've only said it a few times as a theory, but now I think there isn't any other explanation. Massive amounts of Jenova in a short time can produce mutations as shown in Hojo. Just how much is debatable, but irrelevant for now.

Noone in the game exhibits the psychic abilities, or the mutating abilities, people claim are Sephiroths, other than when Sephiroth appears to use them. SEPHIROTH ISN'T SPECIAL, he has no reason for these abilities other than Jenova.
Jenova can survive in parts, she can control people, she can change her appearance, she has unbelievable strength. Sephiroth has nothing, he is not stronger than Jenova, he has no reason to be, he never shows any reason to be stronger than her, he certainly doesn't have ridiculously advanced psychic powers purely from coincidence.

jus chill dude

if u believe that fine, but i dont i still think seph was the brans and brawn for the operations even if he did have some jenova cells

I'm perfectly chilled, and I appreciate you are entitled to your opinion, but if you post something in a discussion then don't take people to be angry if they list facts oposing you.

ive heard from a friend that the dudes in black cloaks may have been sephiroths however they all started to mess up and become all trouty however the one that was created differently (the one we all came to know and and love) survived and became known for all the skills shown in all of the clones. this meant sephiroth was given all the credit of the others and became famous for it.

please elaborate if u can

First off, SM, "TC" is "Captain," and I just added a T at the beginning for the hell-of-it. *goes to edit*

Now, as Phoenix said: Sephiroth is NOT special. He is a normal human being who was injected with Jenova cells since before he was born. All the powers that he had as he grew was the direct result of Jenova cells. Sephiroth's ONLY special powers came from Jenova cells. If only a small amount of her cells can make a human that powerful, how powerful must Jenova herself be?

The black-cloaked dudes you find throughout disc one are, indeed, Sephiroth clones. It has been speculated that the Sephiroth you chase throughout disc one was a successful Sephiroth clone, but there's also two other theories with just as much proof(if not more) to back it up.