FF:VII Advent Children - Opinions Thread

I found this article rather interesting in relation to the inspiration for the battle scenes in Advent Children. Actually, it’s a pretty good interview all round really…

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...0/ai_n14906619

For those that can’t be bothered reading all of it, this is the key section:

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EGM: The film’s fight scenes seem to defy established medium traditions; they are both more realistic and visceral than anime, yet with a supernatural flair beyond Hong Kong–cinema wirework. What do you cite as inspirations?
TN: It’s funny, I didn’t originally approach Advent Children from an action standpoint: It was all about the dramatic aspects of the story. The script came first and offered no real direction for the fight scenes. And I couldn’t very well assault the viewers with nonstop scenes of gripping drama; it would simply be too tiring for the viewers. So I broke up the scenario, inserting action sequences throughout the film in a vaguely abstract way.
Back to your question about my inspirations for the fight scenes. Well, I think the unique look might just be a result of a bunch of game creators coming together to make a film...games are violent, and we’re used to creating violence. I can’t really point out any single works that influenced the creation of AC. Everything in my life inspires me.

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So Ishin Ookami, it’s entirely possible that the action sequences in the movie were partially inspired by ‘WUXIA’. However, it has been implied that the movie takes inspiration from many different genres, not just ‘Hong Kong flicks’ and anime. Thus it is nigh on ridiculous to claim that the battles in Advent Children should be constrained by physical concepts in any particular genre. The same goes for the formula used within the battles. You may not like the whole ‘Sephiroth vs Cloud’ battle in the end, but then there are a whole load of people who do. IMO, the idea you put forward for the ‘perfect Sephiroth battle’ is absolute s@#$. Ultimately, no matter what they did with the final battle there would be people who hated it. So basically they went with a fight which was reminiscent to the game, ie the one on one battle at the very end of Final Fantasy VII. Not everyone may like it, but at least it allows the movie to stay true to its origins. The Giga Flare scene which’ made you gag’ pays homage to another scene in the final FMV in FFVII. These scene that seem rather lame are all in there for a reason: Fan Service.

In the end, if you don’t like FFVII, you probably won’t like Advent Children. As everyone has said, this movie is based on pleasing the fans. It’s little wonder that someone who hates Cloud is pissed when he takes down almost all of the antagonists, but someone who likes him is probably indifferent to this or may even enjoy it. FFVII was always about three characters: Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth/Jenova. Most of the other characters could be removed from the story and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Even Tifa was only added to the story because Tetsuya Nomura wanted another female character in the cast. Just like FFVII, Advent children is a story about Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth/Jenova. The only difference is that this time, Sephiroth appears in the form of Kadaj for the majority of the feature, and Jenova appears in the form of Geostigma (yeah, I know that’s technically incorrect, but whatever…). Advent Children, of course is only a fraction of the length of FFVII, thus in order to develop Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth/Jenova/Kadaj, all of the other characters had to be left out of the picture. The more popular characters such as Tifa, The Turks (including Rufus) and Vincent still get half decent look ins, but ultimately it would distract from the story to give them any more time then was already allowed.

FFVII is a movie about Cloud’s final confrontation with his memories of Aerith and the ‘excellent Soldier Sephiroth’. While telling its story, it also manages to continue the mythology of the game as well as display a gracious amount of fan service and fast-passed-action. If you think Cloud is an Emo git, consider Sephiroth to be an overhyped pretty boy and think Aerith is the biggest whore since Courtney Love, you’re not going to like this movie. This movie is for fans of the series only. With a title that starts with “Final Fantasy VII’ in block letters, why the hell should it make an effort appeal to people who haven’t played the game? F@#$ them.

That remind me, there is this begger sect thing in Wuxia films. And all of them know Kung Fu.....So why not a street gangster and a mechanic know kung fu too since even beggers are capable of doing so...:D

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EGM: The film’s fight scenes seem to defy established medium traditions; they are both more realistic and visceral than anime, yet with a supernatural flair beyond Hong Kong–cinema wirework. What do you cite as inspirations?
TN: It’s funny, I didn’t originally approach Advent Children from an action standpoint: It was all about the dramatic aspects of the story. The script came first and offered no real direction for the fight scenes. And I couldn’t very well assault the viewers with nonstop scenes of gripping drama; it would simply be too tiring for the viewers. So I broke up the scenario, inserting action sequences throughout the film in a vaguely abstract way.
Back to your question about my inspirations for the fight scenes. Well, I think the unique look might just be a result of a bunch of game creators coming together to make a film...games are violent, and we’re used to creating violence. I can’t really point out any single works that influenced the creation of AC. Everything in my life inspires me.

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I read that article back when the magazine was released, and to be blunt it was the final confirmation I needed that Nomura is off his rocker. I mean can you honestly watch the film and say that the creators DIDNT focus on action?

In the same article, Nomura states that FFVII and Cloud were different from anything that was ever done before at the time of their release, and he was very proud. Which anyone with a brain, who's seen a bit of anime in their time can honestly say thats BS. The look of FFVII and the archetype of cloud have all been done multiple times prior to FFVII. Nomura is far too full of himself and that particular article was more of a FFVII love letter then a real interview. There was no inquiring about the consequences of Sakaguchi, amano, and uematsu leaving. No inquiring about the rumors of scores of employee's defecting to other game companies. No inquiring about what happened to Chrono Break or what is square planning for its other franchises in the future. The entire vibe of the interview was pretty much "We love FFVII". Which initself isnt a bad thing, but when it gets in the way of journalistic integrety or presenting the gaming public with info, then yes its pretty nauseating. That article felt less like a journalistic interview and more like unpaid advertising for AC and FFVII.

Oh, and Ive said it before, I'll say it one last time. Its not that I dont like FFVII, its just that the game itself is overhyped by far. Add to that Nomura's and kitasae's out of control ego, and the lack of anything original in AC, and yes I have ALOT of criticism's directed towards them.

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Originally Posted by Christmas

That remind me, there is this begger sect thing in Wuxia films. And all of them know Kung Fu.....So why not a street gangster and a mechanic know kung fu too since even beggers are capable of doing so...:D

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Ive actually dealt with that before on this thread. Remember when I stated in crouching tiger that that guard who hung around Mu Bai and Shu Lien didnt do any flying? Doing great leaps like those you see Mu bai happens under the logic that these cobatants are trained to exercise their chi in superior fashions. Temple guards, beggers, anyone can learn fighting arts, but to do great leaps requires a incredible amount of conditioning in wuxia films. Not just anyone can it.

Okie.. so, some of you are saying that you want to have about an hour and a half of the movie going over a plot which we already know about?

Hey! Maybe the remaining half and hour, they can explain Cloud's backstory again!

I would say AC is a prologue to DOC, about what happened during the time between FFVII and DOC.

Is Crouching tigers hidden dragon the only Wuxia stuff you know? How about those eunuch in the palace that know formidable Kung Fu and fly around. Not to mention the Shaolin Monks in Wuxia Flims.Especially the 18 bronzemen. Those characters in the Wuxia Novel "The Return Of the Condor Heros"...etc.

And also, Barret and Cid aren't that minor of a character like those random guards that appear beside the main characters.

Lastly, can you prove that Barret and Cid aren't trained in the CHI thingy while Tifa and the others are or this CHI thingy do apply in the movie or even the game itself.

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Originally Posted by MaiveBT

I would say AC is a prologue to DOC, about what happened during the time between FFVII and DOC.

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What the hell you talking about? No its not, its like the final chapter in Cloud story.

I love this thread

cool aint it! Lets see if we can keep going till new years.....






















2007

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Is Crouching tigers hidden dragon the only Wuxia stuff you know? How about those eunuch in the palace that know formidable Kung Fu and fly around. Not to mention the Shaolin Monks in Wuxia Flims.Especially the 18 bronzemen. Those characters in the Wuxia Novel "The Return Of the Condor Heros"...etc.

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No, but its one of the few wuxia films besides Hero and the awful House of flying daggers that people on these boards know, thus I use it as a prime example because I doubt many people here have a intimate knowledge of Dragon Inn or the Swordsman Saga. Dragon Sword Heaven Sabre would be a good entry into true wuxia, as its a much repeated saga which deals with chi attacks, chi poisoning and curing, as well as chi blasts ect. It makes CTHD look tame in comparison. Storm Riders and The Duel are a bit more special effects heavy, with some better then average HK fare CGI representing Chi effects as well as super human blade wielding. If you've ever played Kessen II, with its rather fast and loose recreation of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms storyline, then you have a rather good idea of Wuxia when it really gets wild.

By the way, your description of other wuxia films seemed rather... rushed. have you actually seen these films/read the novels? or were you just looking for some examples and ran a google search?

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And also, Barret and Cid aren't that minor of a character like those random guards that appear beside the main characters.

Lastly, can you prove that Barret and Cid aren't trained in the CHI thingy while Tifa and the others are or this CHI thingy do apply in the movie or even the game itself.

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Most wuxia films/novels dont get into the characters past training as well, they are just more experienced in martial arts then others and their skills proove their advanced training. Chi manipulation in wuxia films comes from Tai Chi Chuan, The chi (spiritual energy that exists in everything ) isnt such a stretch of a concept when one considers modern science tells us the human body has its own electric field. Tai Chi Chuan teaches that true strength, form, technique, speed, and grace, comes from a relaxed yet disciplined form, when little to no effort is used. A Physical trainer can tell you that tension in the musciles restricts blood flow and increases blood pressure, slowing down speed, agility and flexability. The events that occur in Wuxia is merely a superhuman expression of the practice of the martial art known as Tai Chi Chuan (Note, the reason for this brief semi-tutorial is that I know full well that the tennants of tai chi chuan sound like rhetorical nonsense to the ignorant ear). So I have little problem imagining a martial artist, trained in combat techniques has had some training in chi, as well as a rigorously trained ninja. RedXIII is a creature of innate magical abilities, Vincent is a hanyo (half demon), cloud has been through the life stream so many times he has to fart in a bomb shelter, lest he release any radiation in public, so its not such a threat all these characters can do some superhuman abilities that resemble Wuxia's rules of chi manipulation (which is based on a real martial art mind you). But Cid and Barrett, despite their importance to the games plot, have no such abilities or training. which is why yes, I have such a problem with their being up that high because from a storytelling angle it makes no sense whatsoever. Its a example of nonsensical plot contrivance in a film that is built upon that princible while imitating Wong kar leung, yuen Wu Ping, John Woo, Wong Jing, Cory Yuen, ect.

Oh yah, and that guard that hung around with mu bai and shu lien was a bit more important to the plot then barrett and cid were. Barrett shows up, says some stuff, shoots a few times, game over. Cid pilots sierra and fights with a spear, but uses staff techniques. I cant remember the guards name in the film, but he ended up dating the daughter of that martial artist who jade fox killed, he buried jade fox, and helped Shu Lien and Mu Bai do their business. Not a big role, but he's freaking Aaragon in LOTR compared to the bit parts Cid and Barrett got fed. So we can learn from this example that The importance of the role doesnt make you A martial arts master in one night young grasshopper.

The fact still remains. The rules of Wuxia do not apply.

And the fact also still remains, that the story doesnt explain how barrett and cid could get up there. Using wuxia rules (and hey why not, they certainly used the style) explains hot the rest of the cast able to fly about and do all the crazy midair combat, which helps make the story make a little bit of sense.

A wizard did it.

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Originally Posted by Christmas

They climbed.....and I dun really know why only Tifa, Red XIII and Yuffie are limited to these CHI thingy you talking about and personally, I dun really know these CHI thingy did apply to the movie.

Just for References, you do know some of Cid's limit break specialize on jumping.

I told you all of them are equally strong through the game events and jumping from various structures to structures is pretty possible for everyone of them.

Before Cloud appear and fight Shin Bahamut, the others were already fighting on the beams and structures. So it do explain they have ways to get that high and most probably they climbed.

Also. I dun really know why you said they jump higher than Cloud. They just merely appear at higher structures(They might have gotten into action first or start at a higher platform or jumped/climbed to that position to await Cloud.) than Cloud is and give him a hand while other jumped as to where Cloud's position is and gave him a push that's all.

It didn't really show anywhere that when two of them jumped together, Cloud jumped lower since Cloud make one straight jump while others could have jumped from platforms to platforms.

LET'S ANAYSIS.

After Cloud uses his Braver move or your so called Wuxia or CHI move whatever you think it is on Shin Bahamut, It crashes onto the ground preparing for an attack.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/231/1014ca.jpg

Look at his screenshot here, the group's head are looking up, so they must be in a platform pretty similar to where Shin Bahamut is.Take note that Barret isn't in the screenshot.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8446/1006lj.jpg

So Cloud make a leap and saw Barret awaiting him in a higher platform.Barret could have already on the higher platform before Cloud in the start.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nowns2/102.jpg

From this one, Cloud engaged Shin Bahamut but loses balance and started falling.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nowns2/103.jpg

Cid who appeared in the first screenshot, shows up in a lower platform than where Cloud is and give him a push. Take note that this is crucial since Cloud already wasted a lot of time this way and Shin Bahamut had already soar into the sky by now. This can apply to everyone else who will have jumped or climbed from platforms to platforms or such to a higher level than Cloud.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nowns2/104.jpg

And Red XIII leapted out and give Cloud a push.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nowns2/105.jpg

Followed by Yuffie.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nowns2/106.jpg

Take note that Vincent is already in a higher platform than Cloud is since he had enough time to get this high from Cloud's fall.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nowns2/107.jpg

And Tifa.

Aeris is irrelevant.



Didn't the game show how superhuman they are....like Cid can uses his limit break to jump high up into the air and Yuffie uses a big ball of energy against the enemies. Must they repeat all this in the movie to tell you? If you want to question it, you shouldn't question the movie but question the game instead.

Besides, all my characters are level 99 too.:D

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and yet again I say Barret and Cid NEVER jumped up there

Was it really necessary to quote ALL of that?

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Originally Posted by cloud20747

and yet again I say Barret and Cid NEVER jumped up there

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So basically magic Video game pixies teleported them up there I take it? Hey, why not? Makes about as much sense as the rest of the film does.