Airships

Ok...every FF game up until X allowed you to fly your airship around the overworld. When X came out, many fans (as I know) where very aggravated that you couldn't fly your airship and had to select out of a list of destinations.

Sadly, and unfortunately I had hoped that Square had learned their lesson and done something more interactive with XII. Again, I'm very disappointed. They find it necessary to put the most pointless cutscene of the Strahl taking off and nothing else when you board the damn thing.

What does everyone else think about not being able to fly your airship yourself?
I think it completely defeats the purpose of having one there in the first place.

I miss it, but times are changing. The overworld is obsolete and unless the PS2 can load every bit of scenery in one go (instead of the chunks like in XII) an airship would be stupid as every five seconds you'd have to reload the next vista (as opposed to every five minutes, depending on how fast you walk through the scenes).

In X I'll admit that there wouldn't have been much loss from not using an overworld, hell it may have been able to make the game less linear, but SE went with what they did and I think it worked well.

It's a shame though.

I remember that when Square showed the FFVII technical demo at E3, there was an uproar when they said "we're not remaking it, it's just a demo". Many people I've spoken to say that fans want a VII remake and because there's a rising demand for it Square couldn't afford not to remake it...however........

IF they DID remake it, they would not be able to change any aspect of the game, including the flying of the Highwind. If they did it like X, X-2 and XII, there'd be complaints, and even more so if they left the overworld out. They could add facilities to it, but taking anything away from the original would ruin it. That's saying if they did remake it, not that they are or would.

With FFXIII, why not bring back the overworld? It was a key thing in the FF games before X, and the PS3 is more than capable of rendering images of that quality with ease. Knowing Square they wouldn't though. Look at The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. I know it's on the PC and Xbox 360...and probably the PS3 soon, but it has a full 3D overworld map and that's what I'd like to see Square do with FF one day (that's if the series lasts that long - they're adding spin offs and remakes to keep themselves going longer).

I think we'll see with the new Dragon game coming out for the PS3 called Lair. If a games developer can achieve that, Square can do. Though, if the PS1 was able to do it, why can't the PS2? Actually it can. If anyone's played Legaia 2 they'll know. You can't control the dragon you get, but you see it fly over an overworld map, and it looks pretty good. Other examples of overworld use are: Suikoden IX and V (don't know what you get by means of transport in V, but you have a ship that travels over the ocean on IX), Summoner (though it wasn't a great game and didn't have airships), and on the Gamecube! you have Tales of Symphonia (you get to control your airborne vehicles), and Skies of Arcadia. Somehow all of that doesn't tell me that the overworld is obsolete - especially if Bethesda are still using it for the Elder Scrolls series in high definition.

Yeah, I used to spend a lot of time just messing around with the Highwind on FFVII. I'd like it if the Overworld could be brought back for airship travel, and I suppose submarine travel too, but not for on-foot or chocobo excursions.

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Originally Posted by DM_Melkhar

Look at The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. I know it's on the PC and Xbox 360...and probably the PS3 soon, but it has a full 3D overworld map and that's what I'd like to see Square do with FF one day (that's if the series lasts that long - they're adding spin offs and remakes to keep themselves going longer).

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What do you mean probably the PS3 soon? I've been playing the game for almost two weeks now.

If I'm not mistaken, the overworld in Oblivion would be streaming off the disc/hard drive install, meaning it's constantly loading new sections as you travel. In fact, the game frequently gives a loading area message whenever I'm travelling very quickly through the overworld. It even chugs occasionally as the game tries to keep up with me. In the grand scheme of things though, as large as the world of Oblivion seems, it wouldn't be that large when travelling over it in an airship FF style. You also just can't load a world that size, with that much detail with the speed necessary for something like airship travel. You'll notice most overworlds tend to be pretty small and simplistic, specifically so they do load quickly and easily. As long as Square continues to go the route of travelling through areas as though you are actually travelling through the world, rather than the abstract representation of FF's past, you won't get control over airship travel. Certainly not this generation at least.

I remember how in FFVI it was really cool to see your airship fly, which was in a way like the PS1 FF games. I miss the Airship Flying in FF much.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

You also just can't load a world that size, with that much detail with the speed necessary for something like airship travel. You'll notice most overworlds tend to be pretty small and simplistic, specifically so they do load quickly and easily. As long as Square continues to go the route of travelling through areas as though you are actually travelling through the world, rather than the abstract representation of FF's past, you won't get control over airship travel. Certainly not this generation at least.

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Much better put than I tried to.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by DM_Melkhar

Look at The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. I know it's on the PC and Xbox 360...and probably the PS3 soon, but it has a full 3D overworld map and that's what I'd like to see Square do with FF one day (that's if the series lasts that long - they're adding spin offs and remakes to keep themselves going longer).

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What do you mean probably the PS3 soon? I've been playing the game for almost two weeks now.

If I'm not mistaken, the overworld in Oblivion would be streaming off the disc/hard drive install, meaning it's constantly loading new sections as you travel. In fact, the game frequently gives a loading area message whenever I'm travelling very quickly through the overworld. It even chugs occasionally as the game tries to keep up with me. In the grand scheme of things though, as large as the world of Oblivion seems, it wouldn't be that large when travelling over it in an airship FF style. You also just can't load a world that size, with that much detail with the speed necessary for something like airship travel. You'll notice most overworlds tend to be pretty small and simplistic, specifically so they do load quickly and easily. As long as Square continues to go the route of travelling through areas as though you are actually travelling through the world, rather than the abstract representation of FF's past, you won't get control over airship travel. Certainly not this generation at least.

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My apologies for not seeing that it was already out.

I have Oblivion on the Xbox 360, and though it does say "loading area" occasionally it lasts for no more than a second usually. Take a look at the footage of Lair for the PS3 if you haven't already. That involves dragonflight in full high definition graphics (which means airship travel should be possible on the PS3 and Xbox 360 at least). In fact, Square COULD have kept overworld airship travel the same on the PS2 because the PS1 was able to do it. They were just more interested in making the in-game graphics better, and decided to exclude it.

I don't see what's wrong with the occasional "loading area" message popping up, as long as it remains as short a time as it does on Oblivion (at least for me it's for no more than a split second unless the 360 decides to have a hissy fit).

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Originally Posted by DM_Melkhar

I have Oblivion on the Xbox 360, and though it does say "loading area" occasionally it lasts for no more than a second usually.

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Stop and think about it for a minute, how much of the world actually needs to be loaded in full detail at any given point in Oblivion? Usually it's not much and the system can keep up easily enough. If you had to load more of it faster then you'd suddenly see the load times becoming noticable and frequent. There are ways around it like having lower poly models and lower res textures load for objects in the distance for instance, but things like popup, and noticeable jumps in quality as you get closer would likely happen.

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Originally Posted by DM_Melkhar

Take a look at the footage of Lair for the PS3 if you haven't already. That involves dragonflight in full high definition graphics (which means airship travel should be possible on the PS3 and Xbox 360 at least).

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Go look at some Lair trailers again and look at a few things. Although the levels are certainly massive, there isn't much variation in the terrain and the textures used for it overall. Also, even the soldiers on the ground largely seem to be based on a single character model. Don't get me wrong, the game looks amazing, but all of these are obvious corners the developers had to cut to get levels that massive to load and run in realtime (heck, even Oblivion is fairly lacking in visual variety overall. Many areas look almost exactly the same). It means you get massive levels (the size of Cyrrodil in Oblivion), but without a lot of visual variety within them. So is it possible to do? Yes, but I would rather not have every area in an FF look the same.

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Originally Posted by DM_Melkhar

I don't see what's wrong with the occasional "loading area" message popping up, as long as it remains as short a time as it does on Oblivion (at least for me it's for no more than a split second unless the 360 decides to have a hissy fit).

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You shouldn't have to sit through a loading screen while travelling an overworld map in an airship. And if you wanted the variety in areas present in modern FF's with an overworld map along with next-gen graphics, you would get longer load times than any player would care for most likely.

I'm guessing none of you have played Dragon Quest VIII? Which, by the way, is made by the same company as FF...

Anyway, DQVIII on the PS2 shows off what I thought was a world map at its finest. No loading time, huge areas to explore, changing of the time, hell there was even a ship you could use as far as I got, I'm sure making an airship in something like that wouldn't be hard at all.

It basically looked like everything the world map in older RPGs can and should now be on PS2... Which is why I was so surprised, after showcasing what I felt to be a major accomplishment in RPGs, that XII was devoid of a world map.

I really wish they would bring it back, as it's become as much a part of the series as chocobos and moogles (predating them), but now it seems like it's not important to them anymore.

and I agree, it would've been alot cooler to actually fly the strahl than watch the same stupid cutscene over and over.

Hey Bolivar, I know the poly counts would have to be reduced a bit, but if it enables a world map, allowing a game to be more interactive then why the hell not? I would have been happier with XII's concept if they showed a few different cutscenes whilst it flew, and/or had a function that allowed you to wander around it like on X and X-2. Heck, I mean they managed to do it for the airships you take between the towns (mainly as a part of that side quest with Ann and her sisters).

In the long term, my point is that now we have high definition, we can play games that look almost real. The PS1 was capable of it, so therefore the PS2 is capable of it - the Gamecube certainly was and I mentioned games that did do it, and so now the high definition next generation consoles should be able to do it as well.

Sorry, I know how to use a computer, I know how to play videogames, and I can set the damn things up so that they work, but I don't know about their technicalities. I simply don't understand why the PS1 could cope with in-game airship travel with the capability of the graphics engine it had, coupled with why you claim the next generation consoles CANNOT do the same. Remember, I'm talking about the abilities of the consoles themselves. If the PS1 can allow one to fly an airship themselves without having to load constantly, and the newer consoles have much more power behind them, there should be a GOOD-LOOKING poly count that would allow them to do it purely for overworld travel no?

Games developers nowadays are starting to think that amazing graphics makes a good game. Most of us here I think may disagree with that. They're using higher poly counts which limits a lot of the interactivity a game "could" have, because they're more concerned with how pretty it looks. The footage we all saw before XII came out for example. What did most of us think? What was the most common expression on the faces of most fans? Something like this....:eek:? Yeah, and XIII? :eek::love: Sure, XII is a fantastic game, and sure, XIII is probably going to be a damn amazing game as well.....but I wonder what restrictions will be present in that one? When you see the graphics, you think...SWEEEEEEEEEEET!
Yep, eye candy. Games are becoming interesting now for their graphics. Whatever happened to interactivity, and games that were just plain fun rather than being created just to look good?

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Originally Posted by DM_Melkhar

I simply don't understand why the PS1 could cope with in-game airship travel with the capability of the graphics engine it had, coupled with why you claim the next generation consoles CANNOT do the same.

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I'm not saying a next gen console can't do an overworld, they're more than capable of it. I'm saying that if you want a world the size of FFXII (and since they'd have to render the stuff in between individual areas as well it would have to be even bigger), with next gen graphics, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. That's a lot for a console to load all at once, or even stream off of the disc. Maybe they'll find ways around it as they get used to the consoles and start really tapping into their power, but I wouldn't count on it.

Any overworld they would make for airship travel would most likely have to be a simplified version of the actual world, and what's the point really? How much has flying airships ever really added in these games. It's just a faster than walking mode of travel, that's been largely replaced by things like teleporting. Some people are bothered by this, but I personally would rather instantly travel somewhere, and then get to see the world up close and personal when going to new areas. Airships never added anything to the gameplay, so I really don't miss them, even when I'm feeling nostalgiac. If I get the urge to fly an airship I'll play an older FF.

Where are my damn airship battles? I want to shoot my rivals out of the sky!

Loading time could be fixed easily enough. You don't need the overworld to be shown in great detail as you'd without doubt be flying high overhead unless you planned to land. The only loading times that would be present then would be those that result of landing.

Final fantasy is about exploring new worlds. Not smurfing around with mysterious happenings that Nancey Drew would turn down. They cut out the air ship, the cut out the exploration and stuck us with :skull::skull::skull::skull:ty drama again.

I love it. But then, I always cry when I watch E.T.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

Where are my damn airship battles? I want to shoot my rivals out of the sky!

Loading time could be fixed easily enough. You don't need the overworld to be shown in great detail as you'd without doubt be flying high overhead unless you planned to land. The only loading times that would be present then would be those that result of landing.

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Agreed! I just so miss flying my airship myself. I mean, come on...the Highwind, the Ragnarok, the Hilda Garde 3 and the Invincible (even though the Invincible was weird - prefer the Hilda Garde 3). There was just something about flying across the overworld that captured me and a lot of others I think.

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Originally Posted by bipper

Final fantasy is about exploring new worlds. Not smurfing around with mysterious happenings that Nancey Drew would turn down. They cut out the air ship, the cut out the exploration and stuck us with :skull::skull::skull::skull:ty drama again.

I love it. But then, I always cry when I watch E.T.

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Well, to give it credit, in FFXII there is an awful lot to explore. I was really pissed off with the way you control the Strahl, purely because you don't control the damn thing at all. At least in X and X-2 you could wander around the airship even though you had to select destinations. Why could they not have done that? In the Aerodromes you can select to go to places like from Rabanastre to Nalbina, or Archades to Bhujerba, and you get the choice of taking the private cabin immediately or the leisure cruise which allows you to wander around the airship for a while.

When you talk about drama, Bipper....do you mean FFXII specifically? I've found it to be a fantastic RPG, but it really lacks in the "Final Fantasy" department. In the other games theres was an element of insanity and humour, and XII just doesn't have that. XII is very dark, very cynical and beyond all else...completely political. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's missing what every other FF game had...even X and X-2 had more of the FF feel to it. I like XII more than X and X-2, don't get me wrong...but you know what I mean by that it's lacking in something that all the other games had right?