I can see the gameplay as being overrated. The lore is the deepest I've seen in any media barring Tolkien and maybe Trek and Star Wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
I can see the gameplay as being overrated. The lore is the deepest I've seen in any media barring Tolkien and maybe Trek and Star Wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
I don't know what's so great about The Elder Scroll series.
FFVII can go on the overrated list too.
I already told you guys what was so great about it :colbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by maybeeThisQuote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
I don't know what's so great about The Elder Scroll series.
You cannot get a single bit of TES lore out of reading the wiki. I don't think you get how TES lore works. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
You can experience part of anything by 'reading the wiki' but that doesn't diminish the thing, it just means you've gone to read the wiki instead of actually engaging with it. If you don't want to engage that's fine but that has nothing to do with the media in question and everything to do with you.
As someone who often reads wikis of things before I read/watch/play different forms of media, it really is only a fraction of what you'd get actually engaging in that media. And often time, it's just words coming at you. What does it matter if Fork killed Spoon? You don't know who these characters are, and if you rely on the wiki for information, you're probably going to be confused.
The thing with TES is that the lore is extremely interactive.
You don't just "go to a wiki and read the lore". You play the game, you talk about it with the developers (yes the developers) and the fans, you discuss it and mutually come up with lore together. Lore is made "official" when it's unique and exotic. The less like Tolkien/other video games and the more like Buddhism and Hinduism it is, the more likely it's going to become actual lore.
Even then, it doesn't stop, because as more fans and developers explore your stuff, it actively and dynamically changes and layers and layers and LAYERS are added. New TES games or heck even obscure pieces of media are released and the entire community works themselves up into a frenzy as they all collaborate on the new lore.
You can go to WoWpedia and learn about WoW lore. You can do that with a bunch of other games, including some very good games. You can't do that with TES. The oral traditions are strong with TES and you will only learn by frequently interacting with the other fans/devs and inventing your own stories and coming up with your own theories through playing the games in different ways.
The entire TES universe is the dream of a slumbering god. (To put it very mildly.) You don't learn this by reading the wiki. You learn this by reading between the lines in the hidden messages in the games and talking about this with other fans as you and the devs together try to sort out what this means for the inhabitants of Tamriel.
Thus suggesting that the best part of TES is "reading the wiki" is extremely naive and very amusing to us lore nerds (Mentioning this idea offhandedly to the community will always result in a good laugh.)
So the best part of the Elder Scrolls is that the devs take good ideas from the fans and declare them official without bothering to write anything unique or original of their own?
I'm sorry, if fanfiction is the "best part" of the Elder Scrolls, then I've been giving the series way too much credit (and I've never been a fan to begin with).
You are completely and thoroughly missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I guess a video game made by hundreds of people in collaboration (aka any AAA title these days) is fanfiction too?
I'm not sure it's actually possible to provide a representation, textual, graphical, or even mathematical, of how totally the point has been missed.
Yeah, this is just like...Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
you have a group of several dozens of people at a meeting, all collaborating and sharing ideas together
and one guy from the outside sticks his head in and accuses one of the random people in the meeting of plagiarizing from all the other guys he's working with?
:confused:
No, fanfiction is when you play a game and write your own stories and lore about it. The fact that you then rush to the devs, tell them how awesome your fanfiction is, and they take bits of it for their next game (or, worse yet, simply say "yep, that's what happened" with no in-game recognition at all)doesn't mean you're "collaborating" with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeYou are completely and thoroughly missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I guess a video game made by hundreds of people in collaboration (aka any AAA title these days) is fanfiction too?
It just means that the writers are lazy, unoriginal, and hack together works from other people rather than executing solid world building of their own.
Which actually explains a lot, now that I think about it.
I really don't know what to say to this beyond god damn I have NEVER seen anyone miss a point so hard xD I suppose I should blame myself for not explaining my original point in simple enough English. As a writer your insinuations make me sad more than anything; I have seen communities do wonderful, amazing things and I have seen people make incredible works of art and I have seen some fantastic collaborations between artists and consumers, from various types of media and fandoms. I have seen communities immerse themselves in flights of creative fancy - I see this in NaNoWriMo every year - and discrediting any of this is incredibly sad to me and is not any sort of world I'd ever desire to live in.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeNo, fanfiction is when you play a game and write your own stories and lore about it. The fact that you then rush to the devs, tell them how awesome your fanfiction is, and they take bits of it for their next game (or, worse yet, simply say "yep, that's what happened with no in-game recognition at all)doesn't mean you're "collaborating" with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeYou are completely and thoroughly missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I guess a video game made by hundreds of people in collaboration (aka any AAA title these days) is fanfiction too?
It just means that the writers are lazy, unoriginal, and hack together works from other people rather than executing solid world building of their own.
Which actually explains a lot, now that I think about it.
The lore is not the best part of the Elder Scrolls. The community that surrounds the lore is. The fact that I have never been doused in so much raw creativity in any other game community is the best part. The fact that getting together with a bunch of TES lore nerds always, ALWAYS results in art and writing is the best part.
People are busy creating. I don't care what they are creating or who they are creating with. Regardless of whether or not they are being paid for it, they are creating, which is the best part of being human. How people can ever see anything bad in any of this and how readily people are to dismiss this process is something that I will never, ever understand.
If you don't personally like TES lore that's fine, I mean I don't get how someone can think Morrowind is anything other than a tour de force of worldbuilding that's rarely been matched in any media, nevermind videogames, but that's your business.
But you really are fundamentally failing to understand how it is constructed, how the community functions, and how something becomes 'TES lore'. Pike's already tried to explain and I'm not sure if it's something you're failing to grasp or that she's getting wrong that I can't see but I'll give it a try as well.
TES lore is fundamentally written by the developers. People like Michael Kirkbride sit down and come up with ideas and write plots, quests, in-game books, and so on. Some of this is very obvious stuff, such as when you ask someone "What is Red Mountain?" and some of it is exceedingly subtle, such as the way different Ashlander tribes have different styles of clothing based on where they live and the resources (leathers, chitin, plants, etc.) which they have easy access to. There is an absolutely tremendous, astonishing amount of lore in the TES games but one of the fundamental points is that a lot (almost all, in fact) of it is neither concrete nor perfectly relayed. For example, in Morrowind again, you never find out what exactly happened during the Battle of Red Mountain; Why did the Dwemer disappear? Was Dagoth Ur doing his job and struck down by a traitorous superior, or did he covet tremendous power and refuse to turn over the instruments he was charged with protecting? So on and so forth, about a great many issues and events.
This is fundamentally good storytelling in principle, because presenting conflicting and unclear accounts helps to establish and embellish differing motivations and does so in a way that is much better than simply spelling out everyone's ideas and telling the 'reader' what really happened. It's something that's dreadfully lacking in most games because motivations are given in a very clearcut fashion and you know for yourself whether something is accurate or not with certitude.
But what has happened with TES, and Morrowind especially, is that this huge body of lore has been engaged with by people who enjoy it and get into it. If you don't, that's fine, but that's not the point - the point is that there is a huge collaborative effort to understand and discuss this lore. And, yes, if someone comes up with a particularly interesting interpretation or novel idea that might become accepted by the TES Lore Commmunity as 'canon'. That does not mean it is going to be the main plot of the next game, or included in any way in the next game. What it does mean is that it is a coherent addition which augments the setting or which provides a new twist on something and one which the community as a whole - often with some dev input, often without - has decided fits the setting and thus can be considered a part of the overall mythos.
I'm not entirely sure to what extent this can be understood without being involved in the community personally because it's a complex community effort and whilst I don't want to seem elitist or to be snubbing anyone, an 'outsider' (for want of a better term) probably won't grasp it all. But, again, at the base of it you quite simply wouldn't have a still active, busy fandom coming up with new ideas, new fanart, new points and interpretations, if the lore in the thing that sparked it wasn't immense.
Actually, I don't care much one way or another. These opinions are literally just what I've been getting from your explanations.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
My own opinion of the Elder Scrolls series is largely "meh". I have Morrowind and Oblivion, but I've only played Skyrim, and I thought it was mediocre, at best. Nearly every one of its mechanics I had seen before in other games, and usually executed better.
And the world itself was just...unengaging. It reminded me most of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning (except without the kickass combat). I knew there was some cool stuff in that, but I had no real engagement that compelled me to go looking for it. I didn't find any of the characters interesting (and most of them seemed to die anyway), and the world overall felt flat.
So, no, I don't hate the lore, as I have had very little exposure to or understanding of it. Those opinions were literally just the responses I wrote to what I'd seen you two present.
So thank you for that post, MILF. It explained the strong points of the writing, storytelling style, and world design far better than the earlier posts had.