Storyline questions (major FFX spoilers, and some FFX-2 spoilers too)

Near the end of FFX, I went to Mt. Gagazet and spoke with Maechen. There's a few things that made me think of what was going on there.

Bevelle and Zanarkand were having a huge war 1000 years prior to FFX. Near the end of that war, Bevelle's soldiers were going through Mt. Gagazet, and their plan was to attack Zanarkand. However, they saw some huge creature on their way, which I assume was Sin. The soldiers ran away in terror. Another group of Bevelle's soldiers went through Mt. Gagazet later and saw Zanarkand completely destroyed. That was done by Sin too, I assume. However, Sin was the summoning of Yu Yevon, and Yu Yevon was the leader of Zanarkand.

Why did Yevon turn against his own city and use Sin to completely destroy it? And what does that have to do with the fact that Bevelle banned the use of all Machina a while after that? As far as we know from FFX-2, Bevelle was developing Vegnagun to destroy Zanarkand. That kind of weapon could have posed a challenge to Sin as well. However, Vegnagun was uncontrollable and so it was never used. Fearing the power of such machines, Bevelle could have banned Machina as a result. However, that doesn't explain why Bevelle still kept using Machina while denying others the use of Machina.

Finally, what was the point of giving Yevon all those Aeons and then killing them? You can let him take over 5 Aeons (Valefor, Ifrit, Ixion, Shiva, Bahamut) and kill them if that's all you have, and that does it. However, if you have extra Aeons, you still need to sacrifice them too. Does that weaken Yu Yevon somehow? If Yu Yevon was a powerful summoner, Yuna could have just blown him to oblivion with her Aeons and everyone's attack powers, and if Yu Yevon was an unsent, Yuna could have Sent him.

And now that I think about it, why didn't Jecht just stab himself, jump down from the Zanarkand platform, kill himself or let the party kill you? Or even better, I think a good plan would have been to use Jecht against Yu Yevon, Star Wars spoilers(Darth Vader killing Emperor Palpatine comes to my mind) seeing how Jecht was the Final Aeon. So even though Tidus, Yuna and the others got Sin and Yevon defeated and brought an Eternal Calm, I still think their plan was rushed, and they didn't completely think about what to do. To quote Yuna from FFX-2, "I don't like your plan. It sucks." Fortunately Yuna realised not to repeat the past mistakes in the final battle of FFX-2.

During the ending sequence, Tidus, Auron, Jecht and the Fayth went into the Farplane. Doesn't that mean Yuna and others could possibly revisit them if they go to Guadosalam and/or the Farplane? I also remember seeing Bahamut's fayth (the child) and hearing Auron/Braska/Jecht's voices when you're in the Farplane Abyss in FFX-2.

Okay, there were a lot of questions from both FFX and FFX-2. I wasn't sure which forum to post this on, but since the questions were more about FFX, I thought FFX forums would be a better place for them.

Thats deep.

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However, that doesn't explain why Bevelle still kept using Machina while denying others the use of Machina.

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This may have been to stop normal people from developing machina to destroy Sin, as it could turn out to be like the Vegnagun incident. Yevon still used machina, but because they knew what happens abusing it's powers, they just make non-AI machina.

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And now that I think about it, why didn't Jecht just stab himself, jump down from the Zanarkand platform, kill himself or let the party kill you?

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Because in the sequence before the fight, he says: "I won't be able to hold myself back." He is completely consumed by Sin, and loses himself.

Now that you mention it, I may as well ask some questions that have been in the back of my mind for a while.

1: Why does Wakka call machina 'machines' at the start of the game talking to Tidus? Nobody else calls them machines throughout the game, and he would assume that Tidus is from Spira, and know what machina are.

2: How did Jecht get to Spira? Tidus says "He went out for training one day, and never came back." So Jecht is in the sea, and 'pop', he is in Spira.

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Why did Yevon turn against his own city and use Sin to completely destroy it?

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I've read this explanation on a FAQ of FFX and think it explains it pretty well:
"In a surprise attack, Bevelle takes the upper hand and vanquishes Zanarkand. The survivors gather under the guidance of Yevon, their leader, believed to be the most powerful summoner alive, and flee to the nearby Mt. Gagazet. There, having at last gained some respite from the pursuing forces of Bevelle,the people of Zanarkand decide on a drastic and definite course of action:refusing to admit the fall of their beloved city, they let themselves be turned into fayths, all gathered in a massive wall on Gagazet's slopes, to begin dreaming of a new, ideal Zanarkand, eternally holding alive the memory of its former glory.
Yevon, as the most powerful summoner, then starts drawing on this dream and summoning it into a huge aeon. In order to protect himself while summoning, he gathers stray pyreflies around him with powerful gravity spells, forming a formidable armor which will soon become known as Sin. In order not to get distracted from his summoning, Yevon "programs" a series of guiding instincts into Sin: among them, to attack any larger human settlement and to respond to aggression with overwhelming force. From that point onwards, Sin will become a terror uniting Spira under a common fear. Sin's first actions are to complete the destruction of the real Zanarkand, and to demonstrate its strength by routing the pursuing Bevellian army."

I think that's the best theory I've heard.

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And what does that have to do with the fact that Bevelle banned the use of all Machina a while after that? As far as we know from FFX-2, Bevelle was developing Vegnagun to destroy Zanarkand. That kind of weapon could have posed a challenge to Sin as well. However, Vegnagun was uncontrollable and so it was never used. Fearing the power of such machines, Bevelle could have banned Machina as a result. However, that doesn't explain why Bevelle still kept using Machina while denying others the use of Machina.

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The banning of machina was something Bevelle did as they slowly built up their religion of Yevon, which was based completely on lies about the origin of Sin. Bevelle covered up what Sin was really all about, worshipping Yevon as a God and declaring Sin a punishment for relience on Machina. In truth, they banned machina so that no one could become powerful enough to challenge Bevelle and its religious hirearchy.
They knew all about the fact that machina could work against Sin (the airship tore its Fins off, did it not?) and that the Final Aeon stuff was only a temporary solution, but admitting this would have allowed people to question their authority.

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Finally, what was the point of giving Yevon all those Aeons and then killing them? You can let him take over 5 Aeons (Valefor, Ifrit, Ixion, Shiva, Bahamut) and kill them if that's all you have, and that does it. However, if you have extra Aeons, you still need to sacrifice them too. Does that weaken Yu Yevon somehow? If Yu Yevon was a powerful summoner, Yuna could have just blown him to oblivion with her Aeons and everyone's attack powers, and if Yu Yevon was an unsent, Yuna could have Sent him.

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The point was that all Aeons have to be destoyed in order to defeat Yevon. The reason the Final Aeon thing didn't work was that the Aeon would defeat the armor that was Sin, but then Yevon, who was still fine, would just possess the Aeon and go off to create a new armor out of it, leaving the fighters to believe they defeated Sin "for good." Until it came back. However, this time, the party went into the fight with this knowledge that Yevon would possess the Aeons, and they would have to fight them as well. So you destroy the Aeons, leaving Yevon with no where to go. Finally, you can defeat Yevon himself, getting rid of Sin for good.

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Why didn't Jecht just stab himself, jump down from the Zanarkand platform, kill himself or let the party kill you? Or even better, I think a good plan would have been to use Jecht against Yu Yevon, Star Wars spoilers: (Darth Vader killing Emperor Palpatine comes to my mind) seeing how Jecht was the Final Aeon.

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They had no control over Jecht, and Jecht had no control over himself. He was possessed by Sin. The fact that he retained enough of his consciousness to recognize the hymn of the Fayth was amazing; it was really only his connection to Tidus that allowed him that much free will. Turning against his possessor would have been impossible. Jecht had to do as Yevon wished, even though it mentally anguished him.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD

Finally, what was the point of giving Yevon all those Aeons and then killing them? You can let him take over 5 Aeons (Valefor, Ifrit, Ixion, Shiva, Bahamut) and kill them if that's all you have, and that does it. However, if you have extra Aeons, you still need to sacrifice them too. Does that weaken Yu Yevon somehow? If Yu Yevon was a powerful summoner, Yuna could have just blown him to oblivion with her Aeons and everyone's attack powers, and if Yu Yevon was an unsent, Yuna could have Sent him.

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Yu Yevon creates Sin by merging with an aeon. Yuna and party were attempting to call Yu Yevon out so that they could defeat him. But to do that, they kind of needed to lure him out. So they defeat Jecht, and Yu Yevon goes and hides because the aeon he had taken was killed, but there were more aeons. So Yuna calls an aeon, and Yu Yevon comes back and takes that aeon. And they defeat that aeon and Yu Yevon hides again. This is continued until Yu Yevon realizes that there is no aeon left to take. I'm not sure how many more summoners were on a journey at that moment, but the other two summoners you come in contact with both quit their pilgrimage, either by choice or force. So in theory, there were no other aeons for Yu Yevon to take at all. Yu Yevon had no aeon left take, so he had no where left to hide, so in a last ditch effort he attacks them and fails. That's how I see it at least.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD

And now that I think about it, why didn't Jecht just stab himself, jump down from the Zanarkand platform, kill himself or let the party kill you? Or even better, I think a good plan would have been to use Jecht against Yu Yevon, Star Wars spoilers(Darth Vader killing Emperor Palpatine comes to my mind) seeing how Jecht was the Final Aeon.

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Remember that Jecht is not really alive anymore, he is now a fayth. I honestly don't really know what to call a fayth, they are eternally alive, but without their soul. And their soul is what creates an aeon. So whatever state of existence Jecht is in he is in no place to kill himself, because he has no control over that part of himself that is still alive, his soul...the aeon, except for the moments when he hears the Hymn of the Fayth and exerts enough will power to keep Sin at bay for a few moments. However, when you destroy Sin's shell, and Jecht calls the aeon he makes, Yu Yevon just takes control of it. Jecht knew that would happen, which is why he's never tried to do what you said before. And, even if he could kill himself, there really would be no point, because Yu Yevon would just find another aeon. And Jecht's ability to control Sin for a few moments, and Jecht's tie to Tidus, would have been incentive for him not to do that.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD

So even though Tidus, Yuna and the others got Sin and Yevon defeated and brought an Eternal Calm, I still think their plan was rushed, and they didn't completely think about what to do. To quote Yuna from FFX-2, "I don't like your plan. It sucks." Fortunately Yuna realised not to repeat the past mistakes in the final battle of FFX-2.

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I agree, their plan was rushed. And that is one of the major points of FFX-2, for Yuna to become strong enough as a person to realize that the way they defeated Sin was a mistake. When Yuna first came to Mt. Gagazet and was confronted by the Ronso, she said that she fights for Spira, not for most of Spira, but for Spira. Even though she did bring the Eternal Calm and saved most of Spira, she didn't fully succeed. She had to sacrifice her aeons and Tidus in order to do so. (She saw it coming) By the end of FFX-2, she knew that was a mistake. If you have to lose in order to win, you will never really be victorious.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD

During the ending sequence, Tidus, Auron, Jecht and the Fayth went into the Farplane. Doesn't that mean Yuna and others could possibly revisit them if they go to Guadosalam and/or the Farplane? I also remember seeing Bahamut's fayth (the child) and hearing Auron/Braska/Jecht's voices when you're in the Farplane Abyss in FFX-2.

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I don't think Yuna wanted to see him. Seeing him in the Farplane would kind of concretely stated that Tidus was no more. And at the beginning of FFX-2 she isn't a strong enough person to do that. And conviniently, that Farplane is not accessable throughout the game.

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

1: Why does Wakka call machina 'machines' at the start of the game talking to Tidus? Nobody else calls them machines throughout the game, and he would assume that Tidus is from Spira, and know what machina are.

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But Wakka also believed that Tidus had suffered the amnesia supposedly caused by Sin's toxin. So, Wakka probably realized that Tidus didn't know what machina was.

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

2: How did Jecht get to Spira? Tidus says "He went out for training one day, and never came back." So Jecht is in the sea, and 'pop', he is in Spira.

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Jecht got to Spira that same way Tidus got to Spira, he touched Sin. He went out to see to I think train, and Sin was there, and he touched Sin, and Sin brought him back to Spira. Same with Tidus. I think that it was accidental with Jecht, but I think it was on purpose with Tidus. It might not have even been accidental with Jecht, who knows. And who knows if Jecht was the first person from the dream Zanarkand that this has happened to.

Defeating the Aeons to make Yu Yevon run out of ways to hide sounds reasonable, but I still think it was a bad plan. Yu Yevon needs an Aeon to create Sin, right? After you defeat Jecht, Sin is dead. Yuna and the others could have just left Sin after that. Yu Yevon would have been without an Aeon to use, so Sin would have been gone for quite some time. Of course, that would mean Yu Yevon could come after other Aeons some day, to create a new Sin, but seeing what kind of a coward he is, with his style to run and hide behind unholy Aeon-armor, I don't think he'd dare to come out and try to obtain a new Aeon. So he'd just mourn his loss and weep for the rest of his days and never become a threat for anyone. Sure, he would be still alive, but he'd be as good as a general without an army or any resources, i.e. powerless.

Why not do that they did and kill the sucker outright so he won't come back at all?

Oh wait, they did that:)

You'll notice that *ALL* the fayth in spira dried up after they killed yu yevon.

You're working with the assumption that aeon=fayth and fayth=aeon.

You see, the fayth lend their power to various summoners. That's why Issaru, Belgemine, Yuna, and the others that have prayed at the same temples all have the same aeons. Sometimes they choose different names for them. But they all came from the same fayth, a soul within a rock. So, even if your aeon dies, the fayth is still there. If the fayth gets smashed, aeon goes.

So between the time that yuna kills off the last of her aeons, and before they kill yu yevon (not a particularly long time span:)) people like issaru should still be able to summon them. And after you kill sin, you really can't go back. Yu yevon keeps you there, and it's only because the game is turn based in nature that you can keep Yuna eternally despairing about which one to call up. Otherwise, it would be similar to ffx-2, where in some of the missions you get about five seconds to think of something to do, fight or run, and then the game automatically does it for you:)

Just because he likes to have really really really strong armor, doesn't mean he's weak and useless. He was able to create them all in the first place, and if you go with the idea that shiva presented, he'd probably have the magic at his disposal to keep you in place if you tried to escape suddenly.

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Lou, I disagree:D I prefer to think that it was Jecht's fortune to visit spira and save the world:D His destiny^_^ But he was unable to fulfill it by himself (probably because he didn't know it) so he drug his son to do it for him, since he has trouble operating arms and legs that are scores of feet away from his mind. Sin is really big like that, you know.

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Originally Posted by rubah

You're working with the assumption that aeon=fayth and fayth=aeon.

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No I'm not. It just seems that the fayth of the final summoning is used up (or dried up as you say) after the one time summoning, thus the need for a new fayth for the final summoning. Not all the fayth die with their aeons, just the fayth of the final summoning.

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Originally Posted by rubah

You see, the fayth lend their power to various summoners. That's why Issaru, Belgemine, Yuna, and the others that have prayed at the same temples all have the same aeons. Sometimes they choose different names for them. But they all came from the same fayth, a soul within a rock. So, even if your aeon dies, the fayth is still there. If the fayth gets smashed, aeon goes.

So between the time that yuna kills off the last of her aeons, and before they kill yu yevon (not a particularly long time span:)) people like issaru should still be able to summon them. And after you kill sin, you really can't go back. Yu yevon keeps you there, and it's only because the game is turn based in nature that you can keep Yuna eternally despairing about which one to call up.

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There are four people in the present of the game that you meet that can summon aeons: Yuna, Dona, Issaru, and Belgemine. Belgemine is an unsent and you send her (if you play the game right), so her aeons are so more. Dona gives up her pilgrimage, so while she can in theory still summon aeons, she's given it up, so her aeons are no more. Yuna defeats Issaru and his aeons. While he could just go to a save sphere and revive them or fight some battles and let them revive themselves, Auron tells him that his pilgrimage is over (and who's not going to listen to Auron), so he stops his pilgrimage. He still has the ability to summon, but he's given it up, so his aeons are no more. The towns in Spira are small, with few people in them. Summoners are very respected people, and people speak of them all quite often. So, in theory, you would have met or heard of all the summoners in Spira going on your journey. And for the sake of convinience to the story, there probably aren't any more summoners in Spira at the present time. So when Yuna kills Jecht and kills all of her aeons, there really aren't any more aeons in Spira. The fayth might still be "alive," but what good are they if no summoners are using them.

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Originally Posted by rubah

Lou, I disagree:D I prefer to think that it was Jecht's fortune to visit spira and save the world:D His destiny^_^ But he was unable to fulfill it by himself (probably because he didn't know it) so he drug his son to do it for him, since he has trouble operating arms and legs that are scores of feet away from his mind. Sin is really big like that, you know.

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I don't believe in fate or destiny, there are far too many variables in the world (real or fiction) for something to be destined to happen. The way I see it, Yu Yevon wanted to go see Zanarkand, it made him at peace. While this was happening, Jecht was out in the sea training, he accidentally runs into him somehow, and Jecht goes to Spira. Jecht went to Zanarkand to get Tidus on purpose, but I see Jecht's trip to Spira as an accident.

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Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou

No I'm not. It just seems that the fayth of the final summoning is used up (or dried up as you say) after the one time summoning, thus the need for a new fayth for the final summoning. Not all the fayth die with their aeons, just the fayth of the final summoning.

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I'd imagine that it isn't necessarily the summoning which 'kills' the Fayth of the Final Aeon, but the possession by Yu Yevon.

Alex

Jecht was the Fayth for Braska's Final Aeon, and he was Sin for 10 years. He didn't die until Tidus and others killed him. That also makes me curious. Since Jecht is the Fayth for Final Aeon, he should be able to summon the Final Aeon, but instead, he transforms into one himself during the final battle. However, could it be that Sin (the huge whale creature) is the actual Final Aeon, and when you kill Jecht (the Fayth of Sin), that also caused Sin to die?

I think I see what you're trying to say here. You're saying that Sin probably didn't always look like that; he has different forms every time he gets reborn with a different fayth. Interesting... That is quite a possibility. I never thought about that before.

I agree that Sin's form probably did change slightly since the armor was constructed out of different Final Aeons - however, since the same summoner (Yevon) was constructing Sin each time, he probably moulded the Aeons into whatever form he wished, which could have stayed the same.

However, I have no idea what you mean by Jecht being able to summon himself. :confused: Fayths can't summon Aeons, some just transform into Aeons - like Jecht and Seymour's Mother (Anima). Fayths/Aeons are summoned only by summoners, like Yuna or Braska. They can't summon themselves any more then Anima can summon herself.

Also, I think that you're correct - Sin (the armor) is made up mostly of the Final Aeon which, the final time, was Jecht. But when they destroy Jecht, Sin "dies" temporarily - its not until Yu Yevon is defeated that Sin falls out of the sky and blows up. This is because Yevon immediately possesses the other Aeons (shiva, valefor, etc) to keep Sin's armor alive - until you get rid of them all, Sin still exists.

If Yuna and co. killed Jecht and legged it out sin would die

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Jecht got to Spira that same way Tidus got to Spira, he touched Sin. He went out to see to I think train, and Sin was there, and he touched Sin, and Sin brought him back to Spira. Same with Tidus. I think that it was accidental with Jecht, but I think it was on purpose with Tidus. It might not have even been accidental with Jecht, who knows. And who knows if Jecht was the first person from the dream Zanarkand that this has happened to.

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What was Sin doing there though? As far as I know, the fayth for that perticular Sin had no connection to Dream Zanarkand.

No, but Yu Yevon does. One of the fayth that you can go and talk to says something about Sin going to the Dream Zanarkand, it calms him. Which makes sense, this whole ordeal is in existence so that the Dream Zanarkand can exist. I'm sure Yu Yevon would want to go see the fruits of his labor every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by Ichimonji

I think I see what you're trying to say here. You're saying that Sin probably didn't always look like that; he has different forms every time he gets reborn with a different fayth. Interesting... That is quite a possibility. I never thought about that before.

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If you remember the scene when Sin attacked Tidus' dream Zanarkand at the beginning of the game, Sin looked like a giant water ball. Then on Spira, Sin looks like a giant whale. That's why I think it might be possible that Sin changes its looks according to the Fayth/Final Aeons.

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Originally Posted by ShivaBlizzard8

However, I have no idea what you mean by Jecht being able to summon himself. :confused: Fayths can't summon Aeons, some just transform into Aeons - like Jecht and Seymour's Mother (Anima). Fayths/Aeons are summoned only by summoners, like Yuna or Braska. They can't summon themselves any more then Anima can summon herself.

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I'm sorry, I wasn't saying my point clearly enough. With summoning, I meant something like giving his own powers to the summoner. When Yuna receives an Aeon after Cloisters of Trials, the Fayth still remains in the Chamber of the Fayth, right? So even if Yuna conjures an Aeon in the middle of a battle, doesn't the Fayth still remain inside the Chamber of the Fayth? If we think that way, when someone summons Jecht, let's say it'd be Yuna. If Yuna obtained Jecht as her Aeon and summoned him in some random place, let's say Besaid, Jecht himself wouldn't turn into Braska's Final Aeon. He'd remain inside Sin, but the Aeon would appear in Besaid, where Yuna summoned it. But it isn't that way. Instead, Jecht transforms into an Aeon himself. So a Fayth turns into an Aeon. How can that be?

The more I think about this, the more unsure I am about what a Fayth and an Aeon are, and whether they're the same or different beings. By the way, is it ever explained what happened to the Dark Aeons when Sin and Yu Yevon were defeated if you don't go all the way fighting the Dark Aeons? Seeing how Yu Yevon loves strong Aeons, it makes me wonder why he didn't just go and acquire a Dark Aeon since its powers would have vastly surpassed those of Jecht/Final Aeon.