the war in iraq....

well everyone knows bout the war, and some people arent for it (personally i am), but u guys remember how when all the soldiers came back from vietnam and how they were cursed at looked down upon and told they fought somebody else's war and that they wasted there time and liv'es,im sure yall do.. well of course they felt proud of fighting because as soldiers they believed in what they were fighting for,but to come back home and get that was horrible and just plain wrong.
when the people talkin bout them didnt do crap,but complain. my point is that how everyone complains about the war and their not helping at all just adding flame to the fire,when actually the soldiers in iraq are proud to serve their country and fight for them.i know cuz my cousins been there since it started and he was in afghan too,well i was also watching an interview of a general about what he and his soldiers had to say about that war protest in front of Washington D.C. when like a 100,000 people gathered there, the guy asked him "General how do ur soldiers feel when they see something like this and he said u know what when i went back to iraq i asked a batallion of marines and other service members that and they said "u know what tell the people back home to speak for themselve's and what happened on 9-11 will never happen again cuz were gonna beat them here"!!!!!!! and i agreed to that fully so i think when the soldiers come back to not treat them like we did to the nam vets, and that the soldiers know what their fighting for.......

I don't think you realize what you have just done...

I'm opposed to the war. Why? Because it's immoral. The war isn't about WMD's, it isn't about terrorism, it's about Global American dominance. I challenge you to find a single war in the history of mankind that has been based off of morality. War is fought over power. Period. If you disagree, you're wrong. It's that simple. I am opposed to killing people for power, and therefore I am opposed to all war, including this one. There is no excuse for what is happening in Iraq. I can only ask why people like you can condone it, let alone support it.

As a soldier in a Democratic nation, I also fight for my people's freedom of expression. If someone wants to use that freedom of expression to spit on me and swear at me, I'd be offended, but that's part of the job. I know that for every spit, I'd have a thousand hugs, and that's enough to keep me going, and enough to keep my head straight and proud.

well nikotine all i can say is war is needed especially when it knocks down a countries world trade center's i think that was just a little immoral too dont u think.........killing over 3000 inoccent Americans,maybe alittle immoral.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by War Angel

As a soldier in a Democratic nation, I also fight for my people's freedom of expression. If someone wants to use that freedom of expression to spit on me and swear at me, I'd be offended, but that's part of the job. I know that for every spit, I'd have a thousand hugs, and that's enough to keep me going, and enough to keep my head straight and proud.

---

Actually after Vietnam I'm pretty sure (I might be wrong but you'll have to prove it) that the articles at the time did not report any spitting on soldiers. However the story was spread later, however I've seen no proof at all it's true. So if you're talking about Vietnam please prove that it happened. And find someone who said it at the time.

Quote:

---

well nikotine all i can say is war is needed especially when it knocks down a countries world trade center's i think that was just a little immoral too dont u think.........killing over 3000 inoccent Americans,maybe alittle immoral.....

---

Nikotine never said that was moral, so that's a pointless question. Next on that specific subject how did the war in Iraq have any connection to the world trade center? How was us bombing afganistan better than terrorists (lots of which were not caught) bombing the trade center? It's both utterly horrible, innocent death dooesn't need to cause innocent death in retaliation... "maybe alittle immoral....."

I bet Nikotine will respond better than I have and maybe even has as I've posted.

Quote:

---

well nikotine all i can say is war is needed especially when it knocks down a countries world trade center's i think that was just a little immoral too dont u think.........killing over 3000 inoccent Americans,maybe alittle immoral.....

---

Okay, so, for now, we'll just say that war really is needed when one of your buildings gets knocked down. So, our buildings get knocked down, and we need to go to war. Why then, would we go to war with a country that did not knock down any of our buildings!?

You say that it is immoral to kill 3,000 innocent Americans. I agree, as any rational human being would. However, let me ask you this: Does immorality justify an immoral retaliation? You imply that because a fanatical terrorist killed American innocents it is okay for America to go and kill more innocents. As far as I can tell, you don't have a leg to stand on here.


(SPOILER)owned.

Quote:

---

So if you're talking about Vietnam please prove that it happened.

---

I'm not an American, and I do not speak of the war in Vietnam conducted by America, or any specific war or event in history. I was making a general statement, that contained my sentiments. A spit doesn't have to be physical, mind you. There are spits that try to stain one's hounour, too.

First off, Bush may be concerned about power. Hell, every leader in the world is probably concernend with power. But that's not why the soldiers are fighting in Iraq. In this country, there is very little power in being in the military, even if you're a high ranking officer. It's not like America's civil war where Generals were Gods on the battlefield. Soldiers fight for other reasons. Those reasons are usually pretty simple, they care for somebody enough to either protect them or try to help them. The soldiers in Iraq are helping the Iraqis. That's not what I think, that's what the Iraqis themselves think. Remember that statue of Saddam that was torn down when American troops came into Baghdad? Did you know that the man who built that statue, the man who was forced to make that statue or die, took the bronze from the fallen statue and rebuilt it into a memorial of an American soldier kneeling in front of the grave of one of his fallen comrades while a little Iraqi girl stands beside him with a consoling hand on his shoulder? Why do you think he went and did a thing like that? Because regardless of what the media would like you to believe, most people in Iraq are a hell of a lot happier now than they were when Suddam was in control. And they thank America for that. That's why soldiers fight.

[QUOTE=nik0tine]

Quote:

---

You imply that because a fanatical terrorist killed American innocents it is okay for America to go and kill more innocents.

---

And when did we kill any innocents? The only innocents that have died in this war died at the hands of insurgents and terrorists. I challenge you to find a single case where American soldiers knowingly killed innocent people.

You know what makes me really sad? Too many people are worried about the politics here and fail to see any of the good things that have actually happened. Seriously, guys, did any of you think that Saddam was a good guy? I really don't give two s about why we went over there. I don't care if it was WMDs or for oil. Bush wants oil, good for him; he's only in office another two years anyway. Then he'll be out, and we'll have a new president, and everyone can bitch about him next. But you know what will have changed? People in Iraq will have more freedom than they've had in a good long time. You'll excuse me if I'm not sorry that that happened. We helped people out, and that's really all I care about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by herbie08

And when did we kill any innocents?

---

so you think that dropping hundreds of bombs in afghanistan killed only a few terrorists? i think not. can't prove it, tho so i'll give you the benefit of doubt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by herbie08

Seriously, guys, did any of you think that Saddam was a good guy? I really don't give two s about why we went over there.

---

dude1: "hey, let's invade some other small country who doesn't have the money or the power to defend itself AND who haven't made any recent treats"
dude2: "why?"
dude1: "no reason"
dude2: "ok! :D"
sounds stupid? it is. and i don't think that forcing a goverment is a nice way to help people. what is that called again? oh, right: DICTATORSHIP.

Quote:

---

First off, Bush may be concerned about power. Hell, every leader in the world is probably concernend with power. But that's not why the soldiers are fighting in Iraq.

---

Uhh.. yes it is.

Quote:

---

In this country, there is very little power in being in the military, even if you're a high ranking officer. It's not like America's civil war where Generals were Gods on the battlefield.

---

I don't think you understand what I am trying to say.

Quote:

---

Soldiers fight for other reasons. Those reasons are usually pretty simple, they care for somebody enough to either protect them or try to help them.

---

Soldiers fight because they are ordered to. But that is besides the point. The soldiers don't decide what wars to fight and for what reasons, the politicians do.

Quote:

---

That's not what I think, that's what the Iraqis themselves think. Remember that statue of Saddam that was torn down when American troops came into Baghdad? Did you know that the man who built that statue, the man who was forced to make that statue or die, took the bronze from the fallen statue and rebuilt it into a memorial of an American soldier kneeling in front of the grave of one of his fallen comrades while a little Iraqi girl stands beside him with a consoling hand on his shoulder?

---

I'm sure some Iraqi's do think that we are helping them, and yes, there is some good coming out of this war. However, that isn't why we are in this war. No wars are fought for moralistic purposes. It's naive to think that.

Quote:

---

And they thank America for that. That's why soldiers fight.

---

Great. I'm glad that's what they fight for, but that isn't why politicians send them off to war, and it's the politicians, not the soldiers who make these decisions.

Quote:

---

And when did we kill any innocents? The only innocents that have died in this war died at the hands of insurgents and terrorists. I challenge you to find a single case where American soldiers knowingly killed innocent people.

---

Ever heard of collateral damage? At the bare minimum twenty six thousand Iraqi civilians were killed during this war, and the absolute maximum is 100,000. (although 100,000 is probably an unrealistic estimate, but it has been made. The 26,000 is civilians who have been killed directly from shrapnel, bullets, bombs, etc. the 100,000 estimate includes possible deaths from causes aside from the ones I mentioned previously) I don't need to find a case where a soldier has intentionally killed a civilian, because that has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make. I'm not saying we are in this war to kill people, but in war people die and it's not okay for people to die for an immoral cause.

Quote:

---

You know what makes me really sad? Too many people are worried about the politics here and fail to see any of the good things that have actually happened. Seriously, guys, did any of you think that Saddam was a good guy?

---

No, Saddam was a bad guy. We know, we know. But the United States government does not give two s about what the Iraqi people want. They are going to get an americanized lapdog government. The Iraqi's may end up with a decent government, but it will not be by their own choice. They may also end up with another Saddam, except this time he'll be sucking Americas dick. So long as the new leader of Iraq is on Americas leash our government wins. Thats what they want. Not peace, not morality, but power. Thats it, and that's all any government ever wants.

Quote:

---

so you think that dropping hundreds of bombs in afghanistan killed only a few terrorists? i think not. can't prove it, tho so i'll give you the benefit of doubt.

---

Well I can prove it, and I'll do so.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

I though the war ended ages ago, we were just occuping the area like after WWII in Japan and Germany. But whatever.

I'm opposed to it becuase we're trying to force our beliefs on them. What did the First Amendment of the Constitution say? The right to have your own beliefs? And whatever happened to Afghanistan, where the terrorists responsible for the events of 9-11-01 were supposedly from? I haven't heard about that since 2003.

EDIT: Cloud No. 9 just pointed out that this is also a war crime, and now I remember that the U.S.A. isn't supposed to go to war unless in defense.

Most soldiers won't say their proud to be over here. They'll say they want to do their job and go home :(

iraq never had anything to do with 9-11. not a sasauge. hee haw. not a single little thing. and again i will give you a little history lesson.

after the revolutions in iraq and war in afghanistan against the russians bin laden and a few of his mates made al qaeda. they wanted to the muslim world to follow iran's example. the tried a few coups and failed.

bin laden hated anything non-muslim, the west, macdonalds, nudey bits on tv. and........ iraq. a secular state on "muslim ground" and more greatly some of it was holy grounds in the hands of a secular state. this did not please our bearded terrorist. so when the iraq-iran war started he knew which side he was on. the side of the muslim state. and a few his followers went to fight in a holy war (jihad) against a secular invader (backed by america as well). the jihad would always be still running for bin laden.

bin laden at this time was still rather friendly with the west. they had their difference but there was not the big thing there is now. he was not a terrorist at the time just a guy they had trained in afghanistan busy fighting more wars. he wasn't on the radar.

he came back on the radar during the gulf war. iraq was being aggressive again and yet again bin laden wanted to send troops. but his doctrine was stronger and he would not send men to help quwait who were receiving aid from america.

he in fact asked the saudi royal family (his home country) if they wanted a few troops to defend against a looming iraqi army. the saudi's snubbed him. they took help from america. that was the final straw. he declared holy war om america who were now in his home country and within a short time the african embassy bombings would be detonated.

but he still hated iraq. he hated the secular state on muslim ground. and he hated the west and he hated the saudi's.

on the topic of saudi. most the 9-11 bombers originated from there. it's a hot bed for terrorist wanna-be's though the government does do it's job in trying to suppress such tendencies.

but as we can see bin laden never wanted anything to do with iraq. he really wanted it's destruction. they didn't cooperate. especially while hussein was busy killing, torturing and gassing muslims either. bin laden would have been happy with sadamme's head on a stake.

and a man with such a heavy doctine with bin laden is not the type of man to cooperate with an enemey even for a common goal. it's unholy. not to be done. doesn't fit in his way of thinking. would not happen.

on the topic of the actual soldiers i will bring up the nuremburg principle of taking orders is not an excuse to commit a crime and since the war in iraq is illegal as it was not in defence, in response to genocide or allowed by the un the war is illegal and a war crime. and the soliders fighting it are automatically criminalized.

but we've screwed up now. it would not be clever to leave the country in the mess it is. we will need to be stationed there for many years to come. and take the casualties. the deaths of the soldiers is the price the people will pay for this war. and it was avoidable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackline77

well nikotine all i can say is war is needed especially when it knocks down a countries world trade center's i think that was just a little immoral too dont u think.........killing over 3000 inoccent Americans,maybe alittle immoral.....

---

hey dude that wasnt iraq it was osama bin laden and taliban, ya know saudi arabia........get it right, god!

wasn't really saudi at all. neither was it the taliban. the taliban were just willing to have al-qaeda training camps on their land.