Help me understand a particular kind of English grammar...

I noticed this fairly recently, about a year ago - you English-speaking lads and lasses seem to use the possessive form when referring to a person's actions: let's take this quote from Star Ocean: The Second Story as an example:

"I hope you don't mind MY saying so..."

What's this?
Personally I'm more used to the alternative "I hope you don't mind I'M saying so", but perhaps that's just some Swedish thing?

So, what's the point about using possessive forms like this?
Nobody in this country seems to know about it, but still I hear and read it regularly.
I hope you don't mind my asking you. :p

I think it's to fool foreigners.

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

I think it's to fool foreigners.

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Nope, because I've read it in a bunch of English books as well, fairly well written too.
Heck, I even came across an English school book that mentioned this once, but I forget where I saw it.

Such a confusing language.

You can translate it along something of this line: "I hope that you do not mind my saying of such a view..."

As much as I use English, I do not know the real reason behind the phrase. I imagine it evolved from a longer phrase and was contracted down, it being quicker and easier to say.

Yeah, Swedish and Norwegian sentence structure is pretty much the same, so I know what you're talking about. I've watched my share of TV in my life, so I can, in most cases, tell what sounds wrong and what sounds right. :greenie:

Hey, have you noticed how tons of scandinavians pronounce V's as W's when they speak English?

Doesn't this have three forms?:

1)I hope you don't mind ME saying....
2)I hope you don't mind MY saying...
3)I hope you don't mind THAT I'M saying...

I think all three of these can be used and are correct.

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Originally Posted by Levian

Yeah, Swedish and Norwegian sentence structure is pretty much the same, so I know what you're talking about. I've watched my share of TV in my life, so I can, in most cases, tell what sounds wrong and what sounds right. :greenie:

Hey, have you noticed how tons of scandinavians pronounce V's as W's when they speak English?

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Yeah I'm from Sweden and I mean...you should hear some of the people I know speak English, or should I say TRY TO, OMG sometimes I just want to slap them or something because it's SO ANNOYING!

What it means is this, I think:
I hope you dont mind 'the action of me' saying so.

I would usually say:
I hope you dont mind me saying so.

(Although as Owen said, you can use 3 forms)

English is a strange language. It uses random unusual stuff. Who knows why.

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

What it means is this, I think:
I hope you dont mind 'the action of me' saying so.

I would usually say:
I hope you dont mind me saying so.

(Although as Owen said, you can use 3 forms)

English is a strange language. It uses random unusual stuff. Who knows why.

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I think English is one of the best developed languages in history, TBQH. :)

I like its vast use of semicolons as well, because that's my favourite mark; it looks cool. :monster:

Even English people don't know how to speak the language.

(See: Quin 'n' Tonic for more information.)

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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Well, in Sweden it's supposed to be used as something between a comma and a period.
Basically, if a comma feels too "weak" and a period feels too "strong", by all means, use the semicolon! :D

English guys also seem to use it when they want to proceed with a sentence, but still stress a pause.

"I checked the forum the other day; it was full of new posts."

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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Well, in Sweden it's supposed to be used as something between a comma and a period.
Basically, if a comma feels too "weak" and a period feels too "strong", by all means, use the semicolon! :D

English guys also seem to use it when they want to proceed with a sentence, but still stress a pause.

"I checked the forum the other day; it was full of new posts."

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Yes, I read in the back of my English/Arabic dectionary which has a full explanation about semicolons, commas and fullstops. It says that when one sentance is devided into two parts but these two parts are related to each other then we use semicolon between them, correct?.

i guess its a posh people thing, i'm kinda common lol so i would say
"i hope you don't mind but" and then go on to saying it

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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Well, in Sweden it's supposed to be used as something between a comma and a period.
Basically, if a comma feels too "weak" and a period feels too "strong", by all means, use the semicolon! :D

English guys also seem to use it when they want to proceed with a sentence, but still stress a pause.

"I checked the forum the other day; it was full of new posts."

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Yes, I read in the back of my English/Arabic dectionary which has a full explanation about semicolons, commas and fullstops. It says that when one sentance is devided into two parts but these two parts are related to each other then we use semicolon between them, correct?.

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Yes, exactly.
It's also worth noting that semicolons are VERY common in some English classic literature; conjunctions like "and" and "but" are usually preceded by semicolons. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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Well, in Sweden it's supposed to be used as something between a comma and a period.
Basically, if a comma feels too "weak" and a period feels too "strong", by all means, use the semicolon! :D

English guys also seem to use it when they want to proceed with a sentence, but still stress a pause.

"I checked the forum the other day; it was full of new posts."

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Yes, I read in the back of my English/Arabic dectionary which has a full explanation about semicolons, commas and fullstops. It says that when one sentance is devided into two parts but these two parts are related to each other then we use semicolon between them, correct?.

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Yes, exactly.
It's also worth noting that semicolons are VERY common in some English classic literature; conjunctions like "and" and "but" are usually preceded by semicolons. :cool:

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I see. I think I love english more and more everyday. It is an open sea of knowledge.:p

Yeah, English is said to have the highest collection of words in the world, so there's indeed still some stuff to discover. :cool:

...and let's not forget the differences between English and American: I think English words like "closet" and "sweets" are called "wardrobe" and "candy" in America.

Yes, like they spell 'color' in English and 'colour' in America.
I think that the English in England is the proper one.

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, like they spell 'color' in English and 'colour' in America.
I think that the English in England is the proper one.

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I'm doing my best to separate English from American, but I fail. :p

May I ask how did you learn English?.

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, like they spell 'colour' in English and 'color' in America.
I think that the English in England is the proper one.

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Fixed :holmes:

I speak english as my mother tongue, but I would bet that a good deal of people with english as their second language have better use of the language than I. :p I sometimes get confused by perfectly good and correct sentences...

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Doesn't this have three forms?:

1)I hope you don't mind ME saying....
2)I hope you don't mind MY saying...
3)I hope you don't mind THAT I'M saying...

I think all three of these can be used and are correct.

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I tend to use number 1 out of those three forms :p The second one, although understandable, sounds the strangest to me for some reason :p

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

May I ask how did you learn English?.

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I learned it at school at first, but then I stopped altogether and became self-learned in the rest.
Why? :p

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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A semicolon should be placed in a sentence with two clauses relating to the same subject where a conjunction is not used. Example:

"The teapot has a crack in it. The teapot was cracked when it was dropped."

Using a semicolon, we can say:

"The teapot has a crack; it was dropped."

to simplify the sentence. Though not as clear as the two sentences alone, the compound sentence gets to the point directly.

At least I think that's how it works. xD

As to your question, Peter, I'm not sure if the use of the possessive is correct or incorrect in that instance. I'll ask my news writing instructor tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

May I ask how did you learn English?.

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I learned it at school at first, but then I stopped altogether and became self-learned in the rest.
Why? :p

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Nothing. :p Just curious. I learned english the same way. :p

I'd say it like this: " I hope you don't mind me saying so...". I don't know why, but that's what my so-called English abilities tell me.

I don't know the reason why, but maybe it has something to do with the differences between English and American..? - I'm clearly just guessing here.

There's debate to this day within English scholar types as to when semi-colons should be used. Usually compound statements are the most used, although some atest that you can use them to start lists rather than a standard colon. Others want to phase it out completely. Personally I imagine it to work somewhere between a full stop and an apostrophe; when you're saying something related to the sentance, but need a suitable stop-gap to show your intentions of it standing as a singular statement.

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Yes, but the semicolons are harder to use than commas and full-stops. I still don't know where semicolons should be placed. xD

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A semicolon should be placed in a sentence with two clauses relating to the same subject where a conjunction is not used. Example:

"The teapot has a crack in it. The teapot was cracked when it was dropped."

Using a semicolon, we can say:

"The teapot has a crack; it was dropped."

to simplify the sentence. Though not as clear as the two sentences alone, the compound sentence gets to the point directly.

At least I think that's how it works. xD

As to your question, Peter, I'm not sure if the use of the possessive is correct or incorrect in that instance. I'll ask my news writing instructor tomorrow.

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foa forgot to say that both clauses have to be independent clauses, which are clauses that can be complete sentences on their own; these differ from subordinate clauses which cannot stand on their own by virtue of not being a complete sentence.

And you use semicolons in a series to avoid confusing them with commas within individual parts of a series. Well, the actual text book reason may be different than that, but that's my rational. :p

For example: "Today, I have to: go to the store and buy coffee; help my friend, Josh, with his project; etc."

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

foa forgot to say that both clauses have to be independent clauses, which are clauses that can be complete sentences on their own; these differ from subordinate clauses which cannot stand on their own by virtue of not being a complete sentence.

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This is what I had learned, though I've been paying particular attention to grammatical coloring as I read lately, and I've noticed the use of the semicolon by some authors following an independent clause and preceding a fragment.

I cannot reconcile this with any proper rules, yet there is lies on the page. I personally find it very fitting. I often have a sentence fragment that is an afterthought of a previous sentence where I would personally find it very befitting to add a semicolon to tie the ideas together without creating a whole new sentence or independent clause to add the secondary idea.

In an essay before I had fragmented sentences, but the teacher did not dock off marks, for she said it worked. So I guess it depends on how effective they are. If their effectiveness overwhelms the grammatical importance than I think it is probably acceptable by most. At least that is how I see it.

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

"I hope you don't mind MY saying so..."

What's this?
Personally I'm more used to the alternative "I hope you don't mind I'M saying so", but perhaps that's just some Swedish thing?

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Let me clear up the issue once and for all. There are three commonly used constructions for expression of such things:

"I hope you don't mind my saying so."
In this case, "saying" (which is a gerund from the verb say and therefore functions as a noun) is the object of mind. "So" is an adverb modifying "saying." "My," in this case, is a subjective genitive form of the first person pronoun--note particularly that it is subjective (not in the usual way that people use the word subjective, but rather in the fact that "my" serves the role of the subject in the implied clause: "I say").

"I hope you don't mind me saying so."
In this case, "saying" (which is a present-tense active participle) is an adjective modifying "me," which is the object of "mind." Therefore "me saying" is the object phrase of "mind." Again, "so" is an adverb modifying "saying."

"I hope you don't mind (that) I'm saying so."
In this case, "(that) I'm saying so" is an object phrase--this entire thing is the object of "mind." Note that this is an example of an indirect statement, which is a common construction that takes the form of "[special verb] that* [dependent clause]" or "[special verb] ([direct object of the verb, which serves as the subject of the indirect statement]) [infinitive with implied subject that is the same as that of the previous verb or the one specified as the main verb's direct object]." Therefore, in the above bolded sentence, "I" is the subject, "am saying" is the verb, and "so" is an adverb modifying "am saying," all of which combine to create a clause dependent upon the word "mind."

* In colloquial speech/writing, the "that" is often omitted.



I hope that this explanation clarifies the matter. :)

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

"I hope you don't mind my saying so."
"I hope you don't mind me saying so."

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The first sentence means "I hope you don't mind my SAYING" (as opposed to my singing or my dancing), and the second means "I hope you don't mind ME saying" (as opposed to Chester saying or George saying). They are strictly different sentences in meaning, not different forms of the same sentence, I hope you would agree. Lots of people use the second form meaning the first form, which is strictly wrong.

[qq=Peter_20]Personally I'm more used to the alternative "I hope you don't mind I'M saying so", but perhaps that's just some Swedish thing?[/qq][qq=Dr Aum]"I hope you don't mind (that) I'm saying so."[/qq]

Leaving out the "that" is an extremely uncommon usage, at least in the part of 'merica I live in. I've never heard it used.

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

"I hope you don't mind my saying so."
"I hope you don't mind me saying so."

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The first sentence means "I hope you don't mind my SAYING" (as opposed to my singing or my dancing), and the second means "I hope you don't mind ME saying" (as opposed to Chester saying or George saying). They are strictly different sentences in meaning, not different forms of the same sentence, I hope you would agree. Lots of people use the second form meaning the first form, which is strictly wrong.

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Of course they have two different meanings. I never conflated them. From a practical standpoint, though, all three of the sentences that I wrote in bold have the same basic intention.

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

"I hope you don't mind (that) I'm saying so."

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Leaving out the "that" is an extremely uncommon usage, at least in the part of 'merica I live in. I've never heard it used.

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It's really just a matter of idiom. For some words we leave out the "that" (e.g. "I think you're crazy.") and for others we don't (e.g. "I hope you don't mind that I'm saying so."). The "that" is grammatically correct and should be present, but of course there's no mandate that every human adhere perfectly to the rules of grammar. There are also, of course, some words for which we use the original way that an indirect statement was constructed (they go back at least as far as Latin), e.g. "I want to live" is the same as "I want that I should live" (not all of them need the subjunctive, though, of course) and "I feel it to be unnecessary" is the same as "I feel that it is unnecessary." This generally sounds a little pompous, but it's not incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Doesn't this have three forms?:

1)I hope you don't mind ME saying....
2)I hope you don't mind MY saying...
3)I hope you don't mind THAT I'M saying...

I think all three of these can be used and are correct.

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It's true that all of these are correct. It just depends on what you're talking about.

I hope you don't mind ME, PERSONALLY,...
I hope you don't mind MY WORDS...
I hope you don't mind MY ACTIONS...

EDIT: UNNE!!!

With blatant disregard for posts after the first page: English is too complex. Everyone should speak Germish! (German/english hybrid) It's as easy as german, and the word complexity of english! Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Big Bri-dog

The first sentence means "I hope you don't mind my SAYING" (as opposed to my singing or my dancing), and the second means "I hope you don't mind ME saying" (as opposed to Chester saying or George saying). They are strictly different sentences in meaning, not different forms of the same sentence, I hope you would agree. Lots of people use the second form meaning the first form, which is strictly wrong.

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*insert a direct copy/paste of Unne's diatribe in my LJ about how you can never say anything in grammar is right or wrong, which he used against me when I said something very similar about a similar error in grammar, and even though Unne was 100% wrong in that instance, I'm using it against him here in order to mock him*

Dr Aum, I did not mean to imply that you said anything wrong in your post. I was only adding my two cents. Also you posted seconds before I was about to post the same thing, and stole my grammarian thunder. :mad2:
[qq=Raist]Blah blah blah I'm wrong blah blah I'm always wrong etc.[/qq]I said it was "strictly" wrong. If you aren't strict, then it's not wrong.

Nice try, old man. :p

On topic, "I hope you don't mind my saying so" doesn't make sense.

The problem is simple, here in America, all through school, you are not taught the actual structure of the language. No one teaches you what the cases are, or anything like that. We learn verbs, nouns, adjetives and such. That is about it. We suck at k-12. I didn't start learning structure of the English language(other than what I was taught from simply speaking it) until I started taking German in high school last year. Sad state of affairs.

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Originally Posted by Fates Forgotten

With blatant disregard for posts after the first page: English is too complex. Everyone should speak Germish! (German/english hybrid) It's as easy as german, and the word complexity of english! Enjoy.

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German, easy?
Are you kidding?
Nobody in my entire German class understood that much after five years of effective studying. :p

In Sweden, German is infamous and known as one of the most tricky languages ever. :D

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

...and let's not forget the differences between English and American: I think English words like "closet" and "sweets" are called "wardrobe" and "candy" in America.

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The sweets and candy thing is good. Although, I'm pretty sure that wardrobe is used over here a lot more than closet is. xD I've never used closet in my life.

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Originally Posted by Shauna

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

...and let's not forget the differences between English and American: I think English words like "closet" and "sweets" are called "wardrobe" and "candy" in America.

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The sweets and candy thing is good. Although, I'm pretty sure that wardrobe is used over here a lot more than closet is. xD I've never used closet in my life.

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"Wardrobe" could very well be the English word too, because I don't remember clearly. :p XD

Th1s 1s t3h 1nt3rn3t 4nd u p30pl3 4r3 t0 us3 t3h l4ngu4g3 4ll0c4t3d f0r 1t! :mad2:

Wardrobe is usually used when you are talking about your clothing "collection" in entirety. Closet is the place that holds the wardrobe.

Maybe it's just me. I put my clothes in a wardrobe. That's how I'd say it. xD

Isnt a closest and Wardrobe different things? I always say, and only hear other people say 'wardrobe'.

I've only heard it called "closet" on american tv shows that get shown here in the UK. I've only ever known it as "wardrobe".

Yeah, the only time that we Americans ever use the word "wardrobe" is when we mean it as metonymy for our collection of clothing.

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

Yeah, the only time that we Americans ever use the word "wardrobe" is when we mean it as metonymy for our collection of clothing.

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Or as a synonym for an armoire.

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Originally Posted by IBCrayZ

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

Yeah, the only time that we Americans ever use the word "wardrobe" is when we mean it as metonymy for our collection of clothing.

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Or as a synonym for an armoire.

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I've never heard it used that way in American English.

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

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Originally Posted by IBCrayZ

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

Yeah, the only time that we Americans ever use the word "wardrobe" is when we mean it as metonymy for our collection of clothing.

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Or as a synonym for an armoire.

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I've never heard it used that way in American English.

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Well, I don't know where you are from, but it is used like that all the time over here in the Northewest. Washington/Oregon, that is.

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Originally Posted by IBCrayZ

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

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Originally Posted by IBCrayZ

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

Yeah, the only time that we Americans ever use the word "wardrobe" is when we mean it as metonymy for our collection of clothing.

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Or as a synonym for an armoire.

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I've never heard it used that way in American English.

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Well, I don't know where you are from, but it is used like that all the time over here in the Northewest. Washington/Oregon, that is.

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Wow, that's really interesting--I just assumed that no one in the US used the word that way since I had never heard or read it. Maybe it's just a peculiarity of the Southeast.

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

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Originally Posted by IBCrayZ

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

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Originally Posted by IBCrayZ

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

Yeah, the only time that we Americans ever use the word "wardrobe" is when we mean it as metonymy for our collection of clothing.

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Or as a synonym for an armoire.

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I've never heard it used that way in American English.

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Well, I don't know where you are from, but it is used like that all the time over here in the Northewest. Washington/Oregon, that is.

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Wow, that's really interesting--I just assumed that no one in the US used the word that way since I had never heard or read it. Maybe it's just a peculiarity of the Southeast.

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Yeah. Actually, most people don't even know what an armoire is up here. Sad really.

Please don't call it "American". "American" is not a language. American English is a dialect, just as Canadian English, British English, and Australian English are dialects. Within dialects you get your accents, such as Midwestern accent, Southern accent, Scottish Accent, and even accent in certain cities such as Chicago accent, or the Boston accent.