Okay, I'm highly agrivated over people saying that Sephiroth wasn't the protagonist. Well, I have something for those who believe it... I say prove it and I'll give you proof that he is the true nature of evil in FFVII.
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Okay, I'm highly agrivated over people saying that Sephiroth wasn't the protagonist. Well, I have something for those who believe it... I say prove it and I'll give you proof that he is the true nature of evil in FFVII.
Simple proof. The protagonist is the main hero, Cloud. Sephiroth was the main Antagonist though.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
Other, as it was cloud...
Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.
PS- The poll says villain so not other.
Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!
Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.
That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboco
Hey, next time you have something to add to your post, use the edit button please! -kikimm
Yes he did. Hojo took his and Lucrecia's baby and had him have Jenova Cells in the womb. If he didn't do that then there would be no Sephiroth.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboco
Mukki. :(
Shinra. They don't care if all the Lifestream is siphoned out and converted to Mako. All that matters to them is filling their own pockets with gold.
After all, money and greed are the root of all evil. :cool:
It all depends on the villan's perspective. I'd have to say Jenova because she basically wanted to steal the planet from the Ancients. Also she brainwashed Sephiroth and took total control over him. Sephiroth is a puppet just like Cloud. Hmm... the Shinra? I could say that they're wrong because they're trying to suck the life out of the earth, but also consider that they're trying to make life easier and more efficient like our current society. Sooo... Shinra's is not totally evil. Hojo's just crazy and bored.
"Hey Bubby <3" hahhahahahaha. OHMAN. He was SO GAY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christmas
Lol. Sephiroth. Hojo, Jenova? Uh, no.
Jenova. That was the root of all evil. That was the main antagonist. It nearly wiped out the Cetra, gives the means to creating Seiphiroth, was the reason why Sephiroth wanted to destroy (or whatever) the planet, and it was Jenova's cells that started killing people in AC and gave the wonder brothers their power.
Jenova. Final answer.
Shinra, they were the ones sucking the life out of the earth.
Sephiroth.
No. He isn't. Sephiroth was in control of the brain dead Jenova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
in light of this i will be voting other, but my vote will be for Scotch (corneos other lackey) who was way more evil then sephiroth, hojo, jenova, shinra and Kotch put together
CORNEO!!!! r all u guys blind!?
Sephiroth seemed like he wanted everyone dead in Kingdom Hearts and he wants to destroy the planet with Meteor as well as become a god. Does that not scream "I AM A VILLAIN MWAHAHAHA!" to you?
JENOVA wasn't the main villain because she DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT USE SEPHIROTH.
Hojo isn't the main villain in THIS game because he has his own villanious spree in DoC.
Oh for gods sake, she didn't control him, he did!
I think that if there's a villain, that's Jenova. ShinRa at the end partly fought with Cloud's team, and Sepiroth's just gone crazy because of finding out about his origins. He was more of a person, to destroy the whole planet... while Jenova appeared long time ago and attemped herself to become a God. Sephiroth was probably helping her, because it meant destruction of the whole lot of people. Besides, he was injected with her cells, so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him. I think it's that Jenova controlled Sephiroth.
Remember that thief who followed you in the Corel prison? He was a mean :(.
yes we can, just look in the Ultimcecia Omega guide, and it says it right there that Sephirpoth was controlling Jenova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavander
Only after her will had already driven him insane and he cut her head off.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyushikazeNo, he isn't. Sephiroth was in control of the brain dead Jenova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
You're funny. You get a gold star.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567yes we can, just look in the Ultimecia Omega guide, and it says it right there that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavander
i wish i could have out down hojo, but it was only vincents life and Lucretias life he mucked up, and sephis...no, he wouldnt be here without him, ok, ignore that
so i put shinra co. down, they ruined way too much
aha, but, hojo had made sorta sephi, who killed loads of people because of it...oh, someone help me with my thoughts and what i m putting across, i cant!
You're funny. You get a gold star.[/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567yes we can, just look in the Ultimecia Omega guide, and it says it right there that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavander
errr, thanks. i have no idea why i'm funny, but thanksanyway, yu've made my day now.
For those that haven't realized it already: Sephiroth was controlling Jenova.
Indeed. Jenova is dead. But Sephiroth, who basically shares Jenova's cells, can control the dead body of Jenova. Keep in mind that this 'spieces' can control every cell of it's body.
Get it?
Your missing my point! I mean that Sephiroth wasn't created from cell to cell by Hojo, he experimented Jenova cell with Sephiroth still in the womb and on himself later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbocoYes he did. Hojo took his and Lucrecia's baby and had him have Jenova Cells in the womb. If he didn't do that then there would be no Sephiroth.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboco
JENOVA WASN'T CONTROLIN SEPHIROTH!!! UNDERSTAND????? HE WAS IN CONTROL OF THE STUPID DAUGHTER OF A METEOR WHO ONLY DESTROYED MOST OF THE CENTRA THEN GOT HER JUST DESERTS BY DISAPPEARIN FOR ALONG TIME! HOJO JUST MERLY EXPERIMENTED WITH HER TO SEPHIROTH AND HIMSELF. PLUS NOT TO SAY THAT KADJA OR HOW EVER YOU SPELL HIS NAME EVEN SAID THAT "It's overwelming that mother would want Sephiroth over me" OR SOMTHING LIKE THAT. ANYWAYS, THE GAME ITSELF EVEN PROVES THAT SEPHIROTH WAS IN EITHER MOST OR ALL CONTROL!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus of Zeal
Sephiroth was in control. think about it, growing up having supernatural powers that others don't....wouldn't you need to learn how to CONTROL them? And besides, He was apparently in control to go with Cloud to Niemble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavander
Yeah, but it's because of Jenova that all this crap happened in the first place. JENOVA IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!!!
And check your facts, some of what you're saying isn't right.
http://www.eyesonff.com/members/wiki...edJenovaThesis
I say Jenova.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavander
Jenova was actually only part... heck I bet Sephiroth would still be born... as Malcom from Jurrasic Park said, "Life will find a way." And Sephiroth would probably still go insane...he was still an experiment from Hojo and would probably go insane just the same..but not a powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
As soon as the ultimecia guide was brought up I just knew this wouldn't be far behind. Good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruise Control
ok...ive played through the game a couple times and i don't ever remember a reference to Sephiroth controlling Jenova....and honestly, how is a strategy guide proof, unless Square published it then no it doesn't count as proof
In my opinion Jenova is the antagonist because she is the one that almost wiped everyone out, she is the reason sephiroth went insane, the fact that he was injected with jenova cells caused him to believe that she was his mother and he was doing this stuff mainly for her, to fufull what she failed to do...and if you wish to tie in advent children into this (although i wouldnt cause i didnt really like that movie >.>) they constantly talk of "fufilling Mother's mematic (or w/e that word is) legacy" so id say Jenova is in overall control...not sephiroth
Funny that you should mention that Suare made that stratagy guide...
and just because you don't like the movie doesn't mean that it should be counted.
Technically, Square didn't make the guide. A third party made it and had Square publish it because otherwise they couldn't use the name Final Fantasy...Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
Sigh... Jenova was the main villain. Sephiroth, however, is the antagonist. :rolleyes2
As far as the poll goes, they are all correct.
If shinra wasn't evil, then what were they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
Big Business. The next closest thing to true evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Come one people! Sephiroth is the villian..SEPHIROTH!!! Jenova was helping Sephiroth with his powers..they were his source... just like Superman and the Sun..the Sun was the source of Supermans power but was NOT the hero other wise he and the other Kryptonians couldn't do their thing. So, Jenova was was just like Sephiroth's Sun so that analogy is good right?
In a way sephiroth but jenova and Hoja cause one him a and lucriea created sephiroth and jenova cause pretty much this game is about her crazy self
:banme :simon:
If the owner uses his business to perform evil deeds, I would say the business is evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffBig Business. The next closest thing to true evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigmaEnlighten Me. Give me this "evidence" from the game. THE GAME. Not any spinnoffs or guides written years later by those who barely had anything to do with the writing of the original story.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
I'll be open-minded when you give me this evidence, but your excuses saying that the "the [fanboy-pleasing] ultima-omega guide said so" is not enough.
This means that a THIRD PARTY paid SQUARE-ENIX big bucks to get the "official" final fantasy name on their product. SQUARE-ENIX wouldn't care what they wrote in their strategy guide so long as it would be successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
How "official" is the guide now?
I remember reading every story-related FAQ about FFVII before Advent Children was even in production and they all pointed to JENOVA as the driving force behind Sephiroth's evilness. These were written by very intelligent people who backed their statements by events in the GAME.
Ah, but she did. Many times. Too bad Cloud didn't smell the coffee.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
And Sephiroth WAS weak-minded. Ever notice how people without Jenova in them don't go crazy? Sephiroth had Jenova in him from before birth, so he was even more suseptible to becoming Jenova's puppet.
You obviously haven't seen the videotapes of Prof. Gast talking to Ifalna at Icicle Inn. in the game. Although they are obscure, they reveal why Jenova is so damn important.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
I retract my statement about ShinRa. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
My post is edited now, Mirage.
Close but not exactly. The sun wasn't forcing Superman's actions. He wasn't driven by the sun's will. He could choose to do what he wanted. Sephiroth was forced to do as Jenova willed him.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
This remember me of a time that i was arguing with Ryushikaze about who was right, him or Kitase(of SE). And i will say to everyone that think that Jenova was controlling Seph, the same thing that i said to him.
You don't know more than SE.
Well, it seems that SE changed its mind since they released the game.
No, Jenova was a tool. While she was responsible for the destruction of the Cetra, she was technically killed by the remaining ones and her body used as a tool by Shinra and specifically Hojo when they found it. While Sephiroth claims what he's doing is his "mother's" will, it's really more like he came to his own conclusions after reading everything he could find in the underground library in Nibelheim and decided that the desires and goals he felt to complete were the same as what Jenova wanted, not that he himself honestly knew or was being told what they were. On top of that, Jenova was already brain dead by this point as Ryushikazu has already pointed out; she had absolutely no control over what was going on, and was merely a tool. A tool, therefore, cannot be described as the villain of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd Eye
That being said, I agree that Sephiroth is the antagonist in the game, but not the main villain. I personally found Hojo to be, both directly and indirectly. Much of what occurs happens because of Hojo (the use of Jenova cells, the creation of Sephiroth, the acknowledgment of Aeris by the Shinra corporation, ect.), though it could be debated whether or not all of this was purposely planned by Hojo or merely a lucky result due to his own ineptitude and desire for power. So while Sephiroth is the major threat, we could consider Hojo to be the actual villain in this story do to the fact that so many of the problems stem from his involvment.
It was Jenova that wiped out the Ancients. Jenova that Shira thought was and ancient and tried to make a 'clone', got psycho instead, that went on a rampage to destroy the earth. Jenova was the one that weakened the planet. Jenova is the one who started all this CRAP and it's being 'finished' 2000 years after it got to the planet. Can you not see? Don't force me to make an epic post describing Jenova and Sephiroth and what the hell's up with them. Don't. Your eyes will bleed.Quote:
Jenova was actually only part... heck I bet Sephiroth would still be born... as Malcom from Jurrasic Park said, "Life will find a way." And Sephiroth would probably still go insane...he was still an experiment from Hojo and would probably go insane just the same..but not a powerful.
Well, the whole story, things revolve around CLOUD, you control CLOUD throughout most of the game. Cloud is the protagonist. Sephiroth is the antagonist because he's a poop face. Simple really.
finally a valid arguement. I might just shut up now. Oh wait:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefka_Almighty
uh...Jenova never died. She was sealed. Then she was found by Shinra. Her head was taken by Sephiroth. Her body escaped from shinra. Jenova had the ability to live in separate pieces, but these pieces would eventually return to the head. These pieces include the body and the cells injected into humans.(Which explains why Sephiroth, who had jenova cells in him, went crazy took the head in the first place)
It is clear that Jenova has the power to manipulate those with its cells inside them. Whenever Cloud became close to Jenova (usually disguised as Sephiroth), he did some terrible things, like hand over the Black Materia, beat up Aeris, allow Aeris to be killed, you get the picture. What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.
It just doesn't hold up as well.
The same thing that make his consciousnes exist in the Lifestream, without becoming part of it. The same thing that hold Holly. His powerful will.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
The same thing that allowed him to control Cloudduring those times you mentioned.
You've got the idea, just backwards. It was Sephiroth using Jenova's cells injected into the 'clones' to control them. This includes controlling Cloud to make him give Sephiroth the B.M. And Jenova was killed, the remaing Cetra killed it and threw the body in a chasm. Sephiroth can also control the cells of Jenova, (keep in mind that he is part of it, so to speak). So, yes Jenova looked like Sephiroth, but only because Sephiroth, who's controlling the body of Jenova, is making take that shape. Yes, Jenova did break out of the Shinra building, but it was Sephiroth making it do so. Jenova is throughly dead, but Sephiroth is controlling it.Quote:
finally a valid arguement. I might just shut up now. Oh wait:
uh...Jenova never died. She was sealed. Then she was found by Shinra. Her head was taken by Sephiroth. Her body escaped from shinra. Jenova had the ability to live in separate pieces, but these pieces would eventually return to the head. These pieces include the body and the cells injected into humans.(Which explains why Sephiroth, who had jenova cells in him, went crazy took the head in the first place)
It is clear that Jenova has the power to manipulate those with its cells inside them. Whenever Cloud became close to Jenova (usually disguised as Sephiroth), he did some terrible things, like hand over the Black Materia, beat up Aeris, allow Aeris to be killed, you get the picture. What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.
I've practically written an essay on it, which explains more.
can you put a link to this essay.
So I guess we're all wrong. Heh. Squall of SeeD, ladies and gentlemen.Quote:
Originally Posted by [img
JENOVA. Just because she' badass.
Yep, he is rather good in his theories. of course, because this is the vii board, that won't get deleted, unlike on the ix board.
What, do they not like him up there?
I can do better.Quote:
can you put a link to this essay.
Jenova is an alien, a viral life-form, that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individula cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when seperated-Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aformentioned powers.
Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any references to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weaking the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7:AC, then this would be known as Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakend by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. However, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to it's former numbers. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.
Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dormant, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to fashion a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability. It didn't work, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two speices together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.
The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his mother and himself.
Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.
As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I belive I'll leave it at that.
false. To say that Sephiroth turned out the way he did because of the Jenova in him but he, the human part of him, was in total control of his own thoughts and actions, is insane. SOS=Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Clarify. He is part-Jenova. He shares it's DNA. But he is part human. To say that the two are seperate within him is insane.Quote:
false. To say that Sephiroth turned out the way he did because of the Jenova in him but to say that he, the human part of him, was in total control of his own thoughts and actions is insane.
Then you're saying the same thing as what Squall of SeeD wrote, just tacking on a "but it was really Sephiroth" on the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
The arguement is now rendered useless as both sides of the argument have established that Sephiroth's will is an independent successor to Jenova's will.
Just what the fug are you talking about? The whole point of that thing was to sort out how Sephiroth managed to do all the crap that he did. I never said it was Jenova in control. I never said that it was Jenova that made him go insane. Just what the hell are you complaining about?Quote:
Then you're saying the same thing as what Squall of SeeD wrote, just tacking on a "but it was really Sephiroth" on the end.
Dragon Mage, the UOG don't explain how Jenova spread the virus, and Geostigma never existed before AC. It was created only after Jenova's defeat in the NC.
Haven't we been over this? I said that it worked like Geostigma, I never said that it WAS Geostigma. and your guide can stuff it.
I'm going to have to agree with that. Bravo.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
To answer the question in the poll, the evil villain in the game would be Sephiroth. :up:
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
You said that it spreaded in the Lifestream. If the UOG don't mention this, how you know? And if it spreaded in the Lifestram, why Sephiroth didn't use it in FFVII?Quote:
I said that it worked like Geostigma, I never said that it WAS Geostigma.
"My" guide is the official word of SE.Quote:
and your guide can stuff it.
apparently, they just purely want stuf from the game, not some 'random' theories that one bloke made.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Well, we did. I explained it and now your annoying me.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
You said that it spreaded in the Lifestream. If the UOG don't mention this, how you know? And if it spreaded in the Lifestram, why Sephiroth didn't use it in FFVII?Quote:
I said that it worked like Geostigma, I never said that it WAS Geostigma.
"My" guide is the official word of SE.Quote:
and your guide can stuff it.
And does all your knowledge come from your guide? Just because the guide doesn't say this does it make it automatically wrong? Does it say that it is wrong? No? Well then what's the problem?
And, in the words of this thread, PROVE IT!!!Quote:
My" guide is the official word of SE
Let me fix this. In case nobody has noticed, I have not been trying to argue ever since I stumbled apon Squall of SeeD's FAQ, which consequently says that although Sephiroth is in control, his will is influenced by Jenova's instincts as well as his own.
Did we all establish that JENOVA has a will which is integrated into its cells/DNA?
Did we all establish that so long as there are active JENOVA cells/DNA, then JENOVA (will and all) is technically alive (Sephiroth being the entity which keeps the head active and controls it)?
Did we all establish that Sephiroth was part human, part JENOVA (contained both human and JENOVA cells/DNA)?
Did we all establish that Squall of Seed's theses are extremely accurate?
If anyone hasn't read SoS's Puppet Master thesis, please take a minute and do so.
Although i believe that he says makes the most ense, other people won't because it's not official
all I'm trying to say is that Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova's will and made it leave ShinRa building. Just like, IF Jenova was in control, then why did it change into Sephiroth when it would know by the original Sephiroth that he was thought dead by Cloud? It would be pointless to change into someone who is thought dead. Plus, Cloud himself says that only one PERSON had that srong of a WILL, and that it was Sephiroth!
I don't remember, sorry. And because i said that you was wrong in one thing in a post, you are already annoyed?! You become annoyed very easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
I have the same question. What is the problem? Why are you so annoyed with me? And about my knowledge, no, it don't come from only the UOG but from many places.Quote:
And does all your knowledge come from your guide? Just because the guide doesn't say this does it make it automatically wrong? Does it say that it is wrong? No? Well then what's the problem?
And i'm questioning you in what you said, because if Jenova spreaded her cells in the Lifestream during the "war" against the Cetra, why Sephiroth didn't use the Jenova cells in it to create Geostigma during FFVII? Why he did that only in AC? What are you saying don't make any sense, and if you want us to belive in you, PROVE IT!!!
I have to prove that the UOG exist?! Okay, here is your prove:Quote:
And, in the words of this thread, PROVE IT!!!
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html
I thought this was a good comprimise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD
yes, guessed that you believed that much, but other people won't, because it's still technically 'speculation'Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
I found other wrong things in your post Dragon Mage.
No, it wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
See? Nothing to do with the Lifestream.Quote:
Originally Posted by UOG
This is not completely right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Quote:
Originally Posted by UOG
Jenova wasn't dead during FFVII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Jenova was brain-dead, not completelly dead. This is proved by the fact that you fight against it, four times in the game. In FFVII Jenova was pure instinct and wasn't cunning anymore(like in the time of the Cetra), but that doesn't mean that it was completely dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by UOG
If you feel annoyed by what i'm saying, this is your problem. I just don't like people spreading misinformation. You have the right to have your own opinion, but your opinions aren't facts.
Ok im reading this and some of you are stating that Jenova took the form of Sephiroth and was the one we saw frollicking about the world...when I played the game i didn't take it as that but figured it was Sephiroth using some power of sorts to project his image...maybe manipulating the lifestream in some way idk....but I never caught a hint saying Jenova's will did this....(I apoligize if it was proven in the essays...im just not in the mood to read long things after re-reading pride and prejudice for school ><)
It's proved in the above post how Sephiroph was controlling Jenova.
What we are getting is this argument out of official words.
You are using a translated version from some random guy. Unless you yourself can properly translate Japanese, there is no way of knowing if its even true or not, and if you can do it yourself you would need to prove it. While I'm not saying that this guide is wrong, there is no proof it's a proper translation. He could very easily of skewed or mistranslated certain things.
SoS's theory, while not being Cannon or official, at least uses evidence to prove its point. So while I won't accept it as fact, I'm willing to hold it in higher regard than that online translation.
In addition, assuming its true. What do you say about the evidence showing Jenova was in control that the guide does not refute? These are called Plot holes. I haven' t read that whole Guide yet, but I hear of problems with it from others. And the evidence they present often times has never been refuted. This seems to create a lot of plot holes if Sephiroth is really in control.
Also, as stated, it wasn't square who made the guide. Assuming this is true, even a direct and proper translation can hardly be taken as good enough evidence.
Quite frankly, the fact that so many different possobilities for any argument of the real villain in this game is rather sad. If so many things seem so easily possible, it makes the story seem to weak to be enjoyed.
I don't know if it was directly created by SE or not, but even if it wasn't, SE published it in their name, and now is official.Quote:
Originally Posted by corncracker
And if i'm not wrong, this is the only translation of the UOG in the internet. We don't have other translation to compare with, meaning that this translation is correct, until someone prove the contrary with a better one.
And about SoS theory, maybe it have more sense(i didn't read it), but is useless compared with the UOG. You said that "What do you say about the evidence showing Jenova was in control that the guide does not refute?", but you have to remember that SE don't need to prove anything. If they say that Sephiroth was in controll, is because he was, the end. FFVII is their story, and they can do whatever they want with it. Their word about FF is the law, because they created the series. They know more about their work than us.
I fixed it for youQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
I'm not that the UMG is going to be wrong. I'm saying that if its not consistant with various things in the story, it creates plot holes, things that don't ad up. I'm not a guy whose just going to ignore large numbers of plot holes. If you are, good for you.
And assuming the only one is correct is just plain silly, as is talking it as Squares official word. Its stupid to blindly trust some random dude who translated it and put it up on IGN. There is nothing official about that online translation.
So basically, nothing translated from another language is official? that's just being fu*king stupid.
Well, don't exist anyone completely perfect. SE is made of people, and they make mistakes some times, like any human. FFVII have some plot holes like many other games/movies/books, and we have just to accept it.Quote:
Originally Posted by corncracker
What he said is truth, because it isn't his word, is SE word. If you want to prove that "he" is wrong, instead of using events in the game to explain your theory/opinion, you have to translate the UOG and prove that what he said is wrong. Because if you cannot translate it, how you can say that his translation is wrong? How you know?Quote:
And assuming the only one is correct is just plain silly, as is talking it as Squares official word. Its stupid to blindly trust some random dude who translated it and put it up on IGN. There is nothing official about that online translation.
No offense dude, but the word of a guy that translated the official guide of a game, is more valid than the word of a guy that is trying to prove something about the same game using only his opinions.
Dont forget Jenova could still be around..Barely but like in a lil jar somwhere and come back and do more evil lol.
Wrong. You don't know it's true. It is his word unless it was translated by someone at SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
And if you cannot translate it how do you know his translation is right? Well?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
1) he's hardly going to be lying about what it says in theguide when he's publishing it to a general audiance, is he.Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
2) the point is, you'll have to learn something called trust, otherwise, there's no point having this convosation.
"He's hardly going to be lying about what it says in the guide when he's publishing it to a general audiance." Even because another person that know japanese could translate the guide and prove that he is wrong, and he would lose all his credibility, people would hate him, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
Because he know Japanese, and because he wouldn't have any reason to lie to all the internet. Basically what you are saying, is that any source of information(books, movies, etc) translated and published by someone that don't work for the creators of the same source, is not valid as a prove, just because YOU cannot translate it and prove that is wrong(or right). MANY people already readed the guide(some of them know japanese), and no one complained about his translations yet. They even use his translation as evidence in MANY diferent forums in the internet. People in all the world belive(and know) that he is right. Is your word against the words of millions of people(some of them know japanese) and if you still think that his translation is wrong, "Prove it!!!".Quote:
And if you cannot translate it how do you know his translation is right? Well?
no he wasn't forced to do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd EyeI retract my statement about ShinRa. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
My post is edited now, Mirage.
Close but not exactly. The sun wasn't forcing Superman's actions. He wasn't driven by the sun's will. He could choose to do what he wanted. Sephiroth was forced to do as Jenova willed him.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91
WOOOOOOOW this is a long argument...I kinda smirk to see this kinda thing...people versus each other, trying to prove lies and truth...lol....this is what I like...TOTAL CHAOS!!!!! Fuwhahahahahahaha
I was having a bad day. And you attacked my post when we've gone over it all before. I don't like to repeat myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Because Sephiroth isn't completely Jenova, now is he? He has limits with what he can do with his own cells. Even in AC it was Jenova's cells, not his, that were infecting people. He'd find it hard to 'spread' himself out through the lifestream and still stay intact. That's why.Quote:
And i'm questioning you in what you said, because if Jenova spreaded her cells in the Lifestream during the "war" against the Cetra, why Sephiroth didn't use the Jenova cells in it to create Geostigma during FFVII? Why he did that only in AC? What are you saying don't make any sense, and if you want us to belive in you, PROVE IT!!!
I was being sarcastic. dur.Quote:
I have to prove that the UOG exist?! Okay, here is your prove:
So it's psionic instead? That's all you had to say, is that it's psionic. But is there any evidence of these psionic abilities displayed in the game? No. I'm not saying that your guide is wrong; I'm just saying it's laking evidence of it's own.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Hm. Interesting. Your quote from this guide says nothing at all as to why they did this to the would-be SOLDIERS. I did. That's the only difference. Other than that, what I said and what the guide said is the same. Your argument would be...?Quote:
This is not completely right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Quote:
Originally Posted by UOG
Ah ha. So, a powerful, near immortal being such as Jenova, would bow to the whim of a bastard half-breed madman? Wow.Quote:
Jenova wasn't dead during FFVII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Jenova was brain-dead, not completelly dead. This is proved by the fact that you fight against it, four times in the game. In FFVII Jenova was pure instinct and wasn't cunning anymore(like in the time of the Cetra), but that doesn't mean that it was completely dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by UOG
And just what is the difference between brain-dead and plain ol' dead? Technically, they're the same. With the only difference being that 'brain-dead' is a living body lacking a mind. Either way, Jenova is incapable of movement or even thinking for its self. It can be controlled and it wouldn't even know it. Because there is no mind, no conscience. See? And like I said before, It was Sephiroth controlling Jenova's body when you fight it in the game. Jenova wasn't home. Sephiroth controlled it's body to fight you in the game. Just because it's fighting doesn't mean it's alive.
I never said that my opinions are facts. But my 'opinions' are all based on what is revealed to you in the game, and are accurate. It isn't 'misinformation'. It's an explaination of certain aspects in the game as shown to you in the game. So leave off it, you snowcone.Quote:
If you feel annoyed by what i'm saying, this is your problem. I just don't like people spreading misinformation. You have the right to have your own opinion, but your opinions aren't facts.
Dragon Mage, my intention wasn't to attack your post. I just wanted to help you by correcting a little mistake about something you said. But you saw that as an "attack", probably because of your bad day.
And it seems that like f f freak, you don't belive in what the UOG say. Well, this is your choice. BUT anytime that you(or anyone else) post something that i think is wrong, i will correct you/him/her(like i know that you will correct me too in other things that you will not agree) because i belive in the UOG, and anything that is "against" it, is wrong, because the guide is the official word of SE.
The fans don't know more than SE. But this is something that some people still don't understand. So, if i try to correct you in the future, don't be offended, because is nothing personal. I just don't like seeing people spreading misinformation, and anything contrary to what SE say, is misinformation.
It's all cool. It just bothered me when you simply said that I was wrong according to the guide (when I was really saying the same thing) without providing any explaination. I don't really see where you're coming from because I'm basically saying the same thing that the guide is, just differently. It really ticked me off. If what I said didn't exactly agree with the guide, you jumped on.
And it isn't that I don't believe this guide, I've just never heard of it before. Besides, I don't think anyone will ever understand this world of FF7. Not even the man who made it really understands it.
First, its not wrong because it was translated from another language. People claiming this is the official word of Square is annoying when I have yet to find Square commenting on this translation anywhere. Never once did I say it was wrong, nor did I say you shouldn't use it. I said it is hardly the official word of Square. The REal Ultimania Guide is, without question. The online translation in another story.
Most likely its true, which bothers me as the Idea of Sephiroth being in control just makes the story rather weak to me. I know he was probably the villain, but it doesn't mean I'll take that online Guide as official by any means.
actually in the ff7 series hojo was proven to be his father and lucrecia as his motherQuote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboco
Hey, next time you have something to add to your post, use the edit button please! -kikimm
yeah...but that don't cont toward creating anything...to create is to start from nothing and make something... he wasn't scientifically made...in this meaningQuote:
Originally Posted by aerisfantaticactually in the ff7 series hojo was proven to be his father and lucrecia as his motherQuote:
Originally Posted by OneWingedAngelSephiroth91That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboco
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christmas
I think you mean ANTAGONIST dingus.
Cloud was clearly the protagonist. Definition: 1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
I don't see how anyone else in the game could be considered a protagonist.
As far as who the real antagonist is, it's clearly Sephiroth. Early in the game it's Shinra, but Sephiroth eclipses them pretty quickly. I guess it could be argued that Jenova is the antagonist since Sephiroth is essentially a reincarnation of her, but that's really a technicality.
If you want to get even more technical, Hojo is responsible for creating Sephiroth, and Shinra is responsible for Hojo. So Shinra is the main evil (although Jenova came long before them). But that's not what an antagonist is. Sephiroth is the main source of drama and conflict in the game. He is the one that the story follows and that it is your ultimate goal to defeat, so he is quite obviously the main villain of the game.
What the hell would the "other" option be? Cloud's subconcious? I guess you are fighting against his weak will the whole game since his stupid ass manages to hand Meteor over to Sephiroth.
-The Roles of JENOVA and Sephiroth: The Puppet Master Theorem-
The long debated matter of Final Fantasy VII: The Puppet Master Theorem; was
JENOVA or Sephiroth in control? Who was the grand manipulator, the mastermind
behind it all? I will here present the truth of the matter.
Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from theQuote:
Before examining this matter, it may be best to first explain what JENOVA is
and functions as: A virus. Whatever its origins, JENOVA's behaviour 2,000
years before the main events of the game was indicative of that of a virus,
the goals of a virus being to spread and to replicate. This is exactly what
JENOVA does upon its arrival on the world of Gaia. It approaches the Cetra,
tricking them with its appearance by appearing as their dead relatives, and
then it released upon them what Ifalna referred to as "the virus." She said
that this virus drove the Cetra insane and turned them into monsters.
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them and
finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus and
went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the
virus..."
and
Ifalna: "That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers...
and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."
The actions of an instinctual virus? Not whatsoever. The actions of a malicious entity, purposefully manipulating minds of the Cetra with telepathically drawing out the memories of their loved ones and then it also showed a specific intent on destroying the Cetra. She says it specificlaly hunted her race down, indicating that for whatever reason, they were the main object of Jenova. I would think a simple monstrous virus would infect all it could.
This ENTIRE paragraph is supposition. It is in fact faulty as it draws from the faulty comparison of what Jenova did to the Cetra and what is happening at the time of Advent Children are similar, which they are not.Quote:
At face value, this may sound like an attack. But think a bit further: Ifalna
is not saying that these Cetra were being killed; rather, she is saying that
they were being TRANSFORMED. JENOVA's Cells are known to cause mutations. As
Sephiroth says at the Northern Crater, "The power to change one's looks,
voice, and words is the power of Jenova." What, then, was JENOVA releasing
upon the Cetra? Its very own Cells. It was transforming them into more of
itself. JENOVA was seeking to replicate.
And strangely enough, Ifalna didn’t mention any of this She mentions the Cetra going insane and turning to monsters, not spewing black pus and dying.Quote:
We find further suggestion of this concept in the official Final Fantasy VII
novel, "On the Way to a Smile," written by Kazushige Nojima, which serves to
bridge the two-year gap between the events of Final Fantasy VII and those of
Advent Children. In this story, Denzel tells Reeve that those people INFECTED
(note the terminology) with JENOVA's Cells that were spread by the Lifestream
flowing across Midgar were discharging a black pus through the pores of their
bodies. With this in mind, recall that the malady known as "Geostigma" is
revealed in the film to be the result of the body overworking itself in an
effort to rid itself of JENOVA's Cells. When JENOVA's Cells entered people, at
first they would discharge this black pus, as this is the body's natural
reaction to an intrusion by viruses: One's natural immune system involuntarily
rushes white blood cells to the location of an infectious substance within
one's body in an attempt to contain it and then discharge it from the body.
That's exactly what was happening with those infected by JENOVA's Cells.
However, the virus was too strong to be removed as simply as random bacteria
would be.
Also the way Geostigma came out is not the way Jenova infected the Cetra with “the virus.”
Except we don’t know Jenova was making more of herself. We know she was making “monsters.” And in fact, all these people died. So the replication you ASSUME Jenova is doing didn’t go anywhere.Quote:
With that touched upon, I will now move on to the events of the game itself.
I would argue that the acts of murdering President Shinra, much of the Shin-Ra
personnel in the Shin-Ra headquarters, and Aerith were Sephiroth's, being
committed while he carried out the new JENOVA's will: His own will. Sephiroth
was essentially the ebmodiment of JENOVA in a native of the Planet of Gaia,
while still retaining his own individuality. JENOVA's will was never so much
that of consciously perceiving thought processes, but, rather, that of an
instinctual beast, a virus seeking to perform one function: To make more of
itself.
And again, the way Ifalna describes Jenova’s determined extermination of the Cetra indicates far more than an “instinctual beast.”
I like how he inserts his own romanticized version of Sephiroth’s motivations into his essay.Quote:
Once Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream with JENOVA's head, his life changed.
The knowledge of the Lifestream would have become privy to him. Sephiroth
would have come to learn just what JENOVA was, and just who he was. Sephiroth
then simply desired to assume the role of that which he now was: A virus. He
wanted to become everything. He wanted the world to be his. He wanted
everything to be part of himself, just as he and JENOVA were part of one
another. He wanted to shape the future in his own image, living now as the
JENOVA virus with the mind and emotions he had as a consciously perceiving
human being:
Sephiroth learned all these things and was still a villain...for no reason. End of story.
Except direct canon contradicts the idea of Jenova being nothing more than an instinctual virus. Take it up with Ifalna.Quote:
As can be seen here, Sephiroth desired to become one with everything else. He
desired to make everything be a part of him. He desired to replicate.
Sephiroth's growth was essentially that of introducing conscious perception to
a viral entity that "thought" based on instinct.
Good for him. Sorry this was never Jenova’s intentions.Quote:
Sephiroth's goal is further supported by the game's CGI film sequel, Final
Fantasy VII: Advent Children. During the film, after Sephiroth has been reborn
due to JENOVA's Cells that were in Rufus Shinra's possession merging with
Kadaj, he tells Cloud that his goal is to use Gaia itself as a vessel to sail
the cosmos until he can find another Planet, one which has not yet been
"corrupted" by the presence of Homo Sapiens. He then intends to make this
world be his new "paradise."
Or can you tell me when she strived to control the Planet? She was around for quite some time back in the day and no accounts we have document her trying to assume control of the Planet.
Where does this illusion of Sephiroth being overly prideful come from?Quote:
Sephiroth's utmost enmity toward Cloud and consistent mental torture of the
protagonist displays that Sephiroth himself was certainly very much aware and
active, as JENOVA would have no cause to render such agony unto Cloud, whereas
Sephiroth, one who was filled with pride -- pride that had been hurt when
Cloud overpowered him five years earlier
Also may I remind you:
*Sephiroth: "What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings
too?"
Now, his actions and words are what is so key here. His first line is uttered
in a very grandiose-manner, yet once he hears Cloud tell him about his
feelings, he looks down in perplexity. The real Sephiroth with Sephiroth's
memories know that Cloud is very much human, that he can feel.
...
It’s funny that you should use the UOG as evidence – seing as how your entire essay contradicts it.Quote:
In conclusion, my determination is that there was no issue of control in the
first place, as Sephiroth WAS JENOVA, but an evolved -- or, rather, mutated --
form of an instinctual, viral creature that didn't operate on the higher level
of consciousness that Homo Sapiens -- consciously perceiving beings -- do. In
fact, Square-Enix's Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, published in
September of 2005, confirms this, stating that Sephiroth, with his higher
level of consciousness, assumed rulership over JENOVA's Cells.
one of the great things about VII is all the theories and debates over them that last until the present day, unfortunately, I believe one of the writers (Kitase/Nomura/Sakaguchi/Nojima) clarified that sephiroth was controlling Jenova.
I'll still always believe that it serves as a scenario similar to FF's - it was the will of darkness that compelled Garland & the Fiends, the Devil that ended up controlling the emporer, zemus controlling golbez, the void overcoming X-Death.
My belief is although Sephiroth was acting of his own free will, with his own intentions and inclinations, it was still the overall general will of Jenova that he was carrying out. Finding a way to become ruler of the planet, as so far as to 'become one' with it. Until it dies and he/she/it/they must go to a new one in order to survive, repeating what started 2,000 years prior to the game's scenario. I believe that's the function of Jenova.
This thread has old man's stink
I agree. In FFVII and AC, Sephiroth and Jenova are basicaly the same being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Wikipedia says that:
"Sephiroth became what some call the newest stage of evolution for Jenova, and anything "Jenova" does in the game's present day is simply Sephiroth invoking his new powers. When Sephiroth came into the picture, the minds of the two joined, and Sephiroth made himself the core of the viral entity that Jenova was, with his ambitions being fueled by its parasitic instincts and his desire to destroy all the humans he despised. Thus, his will manifested through Jenova's extensive psionic powers."
And this is proved by the UOG:
Ultimania Omega Guide:
"The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova."
Sephiroth and Jenova merged together, forming a "new" being. This is why he wanted to become one with the planet and travel the universe(searching for other planets to infect/destroy, like a parisite), because this was Jenova's instinctual nature. But in the same time, he wanted revenge against Cloud, because of his human emotions.
In FFVII and AC, Sephiroth and Jenova are the same.