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I think there is already a thread like this one that I made, but I was too lazy to check. So who is your most least hated villian. Mine is Zeromus because you don't get to really know who he is till basically the end of the game. Oh yeah you're able to choose more than one.
Because of zeromus's mystery (leaving space for fun theories!) and his awesome design being probably my favourite final boss in appearance except probably ultimecias final.
I'm going to say vegnagun or sin.
vegnaguns not that interesting and doesn't strike me as a good enemy.
Sin gets kind of boring because you know about him all the way through and the mystery about who sin is, is revealed early so you know everything quite near the start. It just figuring out how to beat the damn thing. Seymour is the main enemy really though.
come to think of it though. yu yevon was possibly less explained than any other enemy.
Sephiroth is just so over-rated, so he gets my vote. :p
Seymour was a bit of a t**t too; his coming onto Yuna creeped me out... :eek: I mean... she's seventeen... you're treading on dangerous ground there, my (SPOILER)unsent friend...
Yuna certainly didn't have a problem there though, even fellow spirirans seen to encourage it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallulah
Zeromus, crap villain. End of.
QFT. He was just this thing that went "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!". Some motivation... "I must destroy humans! Because I can!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazzard
Sephiroth = look at me, i'm such a lazy asshole, because i make my mummy do all the killing
Kuja = look at me, i'm a spoilt brat who wants everything, and if i can't have it, no-one can.
Ultimecia. She had absolutely no backstory like most villains did and she was only there because the game needed a villain. We found out that she's a sorceress trying to compress time; so what? At least Zeromus being evil was explained by the fact that FuSoYa had sealed him in the moon and he wanted revenge. Sephiroth's back story was explained by Cloud's flashback when he discovered about Jenova. And Kuja's backstory was explained by Garland that he was a creation like Zidane. You find out much more about them rather than just the obvious facts that they are evil, unlike Ultimecia. And you never really got meet her until the end of the game.
aNd aT tHe EnD, sHe taLkEd lIkE tHiS aNd kOuLdN't gEt hEr c'S rIghT. The way she talked was not really evil, funny, or whatever it was supposed to be. Just plain odd (and odd things are not what I would expect villains to say).
By the way, aren't Seymour and Shuyin the villains of FFX and X-2, not Sin and Vegnagun?
For me, it's a tie between Ultimecia and Sephiroth. Ultimecia for the same reasons as PuPu.
As for Sephiroth... Sorry, never striked me as badass. I mean, come on, pretty much all the fights against him wasn't even him since he was stuck in the life stream, it was Jenova disguised. Yeah, very badass there, bishie boy. I am swooning at your manliness.
And come on, he got pwned by Cloud on Mt. Nibel. The same Cloud who was a little nobody Shin-Ra soldier at the time, got impaled by the Masamune, and yet still managed to toss Sephiroth into the life stream. Must not have been as powerful as everyone said he was.
Sephiroth because I just never liked him. He was more annoying then threatening. You spend the game "fighting" him, but not really. Then you fight him for real and it's impossible to lose.
Unless you use knights of the rounds on Jenova Synthesis. Even with my characters on 99 they all still had some trouble.
In my opinion, Sephiroth was cooler in Advent Children and KHII more than FF7.
Actually, Sephy gains a boost in HP, attack, defense, magic, and magic defense (spirit) for each character at level 99. So, by leveling your characters to 99, you made the battle harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Cloud
Also, I think Omni Legacy was talking about the battle where Cloud instantly receives Omnislash and where Sephy dies in one hit.
It used to be Seymour, but the more I played FFX, the more I liked him.
Now I say Zeromus, for the same reasons as you u.u
My favorites are Seymour, Yu-Yevon, Shuyin, and Ultimecia. Oh...and Vayne looked cool in the final batte, that's the only reason I like him.
Chaos, because he IS the least explained out of the ones up there.
But he, like most of the choices, is just the final boss that appears at the end. It's like saying Necron is the villain of IX.
And Sephiroth wasn't the first FF villain that you only really see at the end. I can think of 3 off the top of my head that were like that.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Zeromus just "another form" of Zemus? I mean, he is the hate inside Zemus, but nothing more. Even if Zeromus is the final boss, the true villain of FFIV is Zemus. He was the one who controlled Golbez and etc.
To me Sephy was a pretty boy with a mother-complex. Highly overrated as a villain.
I think Sephiroth deserves a lot more appreciation, and a lot less hate. He was a great villain who will always be teh bEsT.
I say Necron from FF9; where the HELL did he come from? :confused:
Seymour was a clever one, normally they made the villains "cool" but Seymour, it was actually possible to dislike him, which is good of square enix.
So Seymour gets my vote. Sephiroth, Kefka, Vayne and Ka'mlanaut where all coool...
AND WHY DONT PEOPLE EVER PUT THE FFXI PARTS IN?!?!?!?! *angry*
For me, the FF villains are a mixed bag. You've got Kefka, Sephiroth, X-Death, Kuja, and Seymour who all interact with the characters through the course of the game, and Chaos, Zeromus, Dark Cloud, and Ultimecia whom you only get to confront at the end of the game. And then there's the Emperor who gets whacked by two swipes from a Blood Sword and sucks despite having "created" a (potentially?) interesting setting.
I generally prefer the type of villains that would fit in the former group, though that doesn't mean I necessarily like or dislike individuals from either group (I dislike Kuja for example, and like Ultimecia).
The worst for me is Dark Cloud. And I would group Necron along with her. Both are sort of embodiments of existential concepts rather than having true personal motivations. Both are just sort of *there* at the end and you have to beat them--Dark Cloud was hinted I suppose as the power that "controls" Zande (who himself is a woefully underdeveloped villain), and stopping the merger/takeover with the Dark World was the point of the game, but the actually character/entity *Dark Cloud* had zero development storywise. I like my final bosses to be someone I hate, or love to hate. Just being *there* before the final movie/credits is not good enough for me.
Mind you, I haven't played the DS remake of FFIII, just the "original."
It was not just 'hinted', Cloud of Darkness WAS the force that controlled Zande and tried to erase everything with the Void. Hey, Golbez and Zemus had to get it from somewhere...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender
And Zande was, in my eyes, the first developped FF villain. At least he had a motive and a bit of backgroundstory, compared to Garland and Emperor. Or even Golbez. >_>
Playing the DS remake is not a bad idea, since the better translation and new way of how the events are portrayed do help the story quite a bit, at least in my eyes.
Oh well... I'm probably the only one who has Cloud of Darkness, NeoExDeath and Necron as my favourite villains...
As for my most hated villain... probably Emperor because of his Final Battle (almost imossible without bloodsword and a joke with it, please...) or Sephiroth, because with everybody screaming how awesome he is, he was an incredible disappointment and the average insane FF villain at best.
I found Kefka and Kuja the least impressive out of all the FF villains I've encountered. They're certainly similar in verbosity and flamboyance, which makes them interesting characters. However, their hatred - their reasons for wanting to destroy all creation - are so flimsy and arbitrary that they just aren't as compelling as other villains. I prefer it when the antagonist is driven by some powerful cause, because it makes them more convincing and more frightening - insofar as a make-believe nemesis can be convincing and frightening. Sephiroth, Vayne and Zemus (among others) are all motivated by profound and world-shaking causes, whereas Kefka and Kuja basically just say, "well, I've got all this power and life isn't really meaningful, so I might as well destroy everything."
I'm not saying they totally fail as characters. Kefka provides great commentary on the pointlessness of futile struggle and useless power, while Kuja's got a lot to say about mortality and finding meaning in life. But as villains, their desire for destruction is just so aimless and shallow compared to some of their counterparts. They have fairly common anxieties, which are turned into universally destructive potential when the plot imbues them with god-like power. The other villains aren't that simple...
Ultimecia fit in the former group actually. She interact with the characters through the course of the game. You just don't know is her, because she is inside the body of other person(Edea).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender
I guess Ultimecia really. I never thought she was a particularly good villain and the reason she wanted compress time was never really explained enough for me. She wasn't particularly menacing in her slutty dead wings outfit. They could have developed further backstory.
Agreed. It's bad enough that she's totally uninteresting, but the lack of a consistant villian throughout the rest of the game makes it even harder to stomach her appearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
Looking at him in the context of when the game came out though, I find it easy to forgive how shallow he and the other villians in that game are. Shallow, nonsensical plots and characters were common at the time, and videogame storytelling still had a long way to go. The existence of characters so lacking in depth in a game like FFVIII is pretty unforgiveable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Seymour. What a :skull::skull::skull::skull:ty name for a villian. What a :skull::skull::skull::skull:ty villian.
I’ve clocked FFIV thousands of times, and I still have no smurfing idea who Zeromus is.
That guy who just randomly appears at the end?Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat Puppet
Seymour is both my favorite and least favorite at the same time.
Favorite because of his depth. He wasn't a 2D baddie who just wanted to destroy the world for hell of it, or become God to rule the universe. Unlike most of the villains who knew well that they were committing acts of evil, Seymour actually believed what he was doing was right. He had a savior complex. "I'm going to destroy Spira so that no one will ever have to suffer again."
Least favorite because he was a pedophile. And most of all the Seymour Flux form!
My least favourite bad guy would have to be Seymour. I'm pretty sure I hated- or at least intensely disliked- that guy. I suppose that makes him a well-developed enemy, though.
Dark Cloud. Evil in a bag. Lame. Uninspired. Only uses one attack.
I'm surprised Ultimecia is only third though :P
No longer in the DS version, though. And even in the NES version, she had 2 attacks. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
And for its time, I'd call that thingie original. Course, with Zeromus, NeoExDeath, Kefka, True Ultimecia and NEcron copying it, the originality is a bit gone now, allas...
i think sephiroth gets too much abuse, he can be challenging without KOTR or limit breaks. But i still agree he was pretty overated:rolleyes2
He isn't challaging if you set you materna right.
Exactly. Besides, on my first playthrough, I didn't have KotR and I still found him easy because I had good materia combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
i went with seymor just because i hated him on a much more soulful level he was evil and disturbed while sepheroth was crazy evil.
Alright... I'm a little confused about this thread...
Is this hate as in "damn they were just a terribly lame villain" or is it "damn that person pisses me off, they are written so well cause they proceed to invoke such powerful emotions from me."?
I'll do both.
Seymour is the lamest villain in the series by far cause he is irrelevant to the plot of the game he's featured in. I believe he only exists cause the creators felt the player needed an antagonist they could talk to.
His crimes are weak compared to what every previous villain and even compared to what Yu-Yevon/Sin was doing in his own game. His motive was lame and I am sick and tired of these childhood crybaby stories. If you mentally remove him from the game you quickly realize that it hardly alters the plot in any significant way. He was practically the game's "flunky" villain, every time he shows up it's like...
Seymour: I'm here to smite these cause I'm crazy in the membrane!
Party: You again? (party bitch slaps him out of the way and proceeds to continue the plot)
Seymour: I'm here again to smite thee!
Party: WTF!? Didn't we kick you ass already?
Seymour: I'm different now! I'm ZOMBIE SEYMOUR!!!
(Party proceeds to bitch slap him out of the way and continue the plot... rinse, repeat, ad naseum...:rolleyes2 )
For villains that drove me to hate them cause they were done pretty well... I'm going to say Golbez, even if he wasn't the game's main villian he was still a man that drove me mad. Every time you meet him he finds new and more amusing ways to screw your party over. Whether he's brainwashing your friends, stealing crystals or just messing up the place he always seemed to be in control.
You literally spend most of FFIV just trying to catch up to him but he always finds a way to stay one step ahead of you. But you had to respect and admire him. He dressed snazzy, he was more powerful than you, and far more intelligent.
i hate kefka....i reaaallllyyy hate kefka! what a scum bag. trying to ruin the world. ive always thought sephiroth could destroy him.
I loved Seymour.
i'm gunna go with Kefka as i can never beat him
and surely because hes a little creep?Quote:
Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane
I voted for all of them cos multiple poll.
Final Fantasy has lame villians.
Personally, I think Yu Yevon is the villain of FFX, Seymour is merely the antagonist, like Gilgamesh, the Turks, Beatrix, Riku and Ritz. The only major difference is that he doesn't switch to your side, which would have completely ruined his character.
One of the main conditions of being a villain is that they have to know that they're evil, which Seymour fails to fulfil decisively.Quote:
An antagonist is a character or group of characters, or, sometimes an institution of a happening who represents the opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend. In the classic style of story wherein the action consists of a hero fighting a villain, the two can be regarded as protagonist and antagonist, respectively.
Contrary to what some people commonly believe, the antagonist is not always the villain, but simply those who oppose the main character.
The same could be said for any of the antagonists I mentioned, except for Riku.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
That's what antagonists do. They let the villain do all the crimes. Though Seymour has a pretty impressive list for an antagonist.Quote:
His crimes are weak compared to what every previous villain and even compared to what Yu-Yevon/Sin was doing in his own game.
Compared to stuff like:Quote:
His motive was lame
"I'm enslaving the world because I hatehatehateHATE you!"
"If I can't exist, then I'll destroy all the universe!"
Seymour's motive, to send all of Spira into a spiral of death to end their suffering, is very deep.
That is a feature of most antagonists. Imagine FF7 without the Turks, FFTA without Ritz, etc.Quote:
If you mentally remove him from the game you quickly realize that it hardly alters the plot in any significant way.
Sounds like Gilgamesh, the Turks, and Riku Replica from CoM (without the zombie part) to me...Quote:
He was practically the game's "flunky" villain, every time he shows up it's like...
Seymour: I'm here to smite these cause I'm crazy in the membrane!
Party: You again? (party bitch slaps him out of the way and proceeds to continue the plot)
Seymour: I'm here again to smite thee!
Party: WTF!? Didn't we kick you ass already?
Seymour: I'm different now! I'm ZOMBIE SEYMOUR!!!
(Party proceeds to bitch slap him out of the way and continue the plot... rinse, repeat, ad naseum...:rolleyes2 )
Bahamut states within the game that Yu-Yevon is neither good nor evil (the nature of his appearance during the Final Battle only seems to confirm this), which makes him unable to gain the title of 'villain'.
While Seymour believes that what he is ultimately what is best for Spira, his methods of achieving his ends in addition to the sadistic glee he takes in accomplishing them (for reference, his conversation with Kimahri before the third battle with him) definitely makes him an villainous character.
But yeah, I wouldn't really call him a bad villain, even if his role in the plot is only equivalent to that of the supporting antagonists in other titles.
is that a joke or are you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
I actually agree with you on this point but many FF fans consider Seymour to be the villain. My post can be thought more of a commentary on this odd phenomenon.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Firo Volondé
Actually, most of the main villains don't consider themselves evil either in their respected games. Hell I don't think any of them ever recognize it.Quote:
One of the main conditions of being a villain is that they have to know that they're evil, which Seymour fails to fulfil decisively.Quote:
An antagonist is a character or group of characters, or, sometimes an institution of a happening who represents the opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend. In the classic style of story wherein the action consists of a hero fighting a villain, the two can be regarded as protagonist and antagonist, respectively.
Contrary to what some people commonly believe, the antagonist is not always the villain, but simply those who oppose the main character.
Ritz is actually relevant to her plot but that's for another forum. With the exception of her and Riku as you said, it's true but you forget one thing that makes the Turks and Gilgamesh different from Seymour. Besides the addition of comic relief (and I know that's a moot point) the characters mentioned are all actually underlings to a major villain. They do their "flunky" work cause they are ordered to do so by the game's real villain cause you know... they are flunkies:D . Like your posted definition of antagonist, all of them eventually reveal they are rooting for the heroes and usually your final encounter with them has these characters revealing they are finally fighting for themselves rather than to achieve the goals of the main villain.Quote:
The same could be said for any of the antagonists I mentioned, except for Riku.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Seymour breaks this tradition, he fights only for himslef and eventually chases after Sin in hopes of using it as a vessel to carry out his insane plan. Yet despite his reletive independance from the actual main villain, he's pretty irrelevant, neither his motive, his role, or general purpose does anything to help or expand the storyline except to give your party something to do while they run around Spira collecting summons and searching for Zanarkand.
Hardly, chasing your party around and attacking the Al Bhed and Ronso while attempting to carry out a plan to wipe everything out (which he fails) is pretty weak to the sheer planetary and political strife caused by previous villains in the series. In fact, only the Ronso were really affected by Seymour which is greatly expanded on in X-2.Quote:
That's what antagonists do. They let the villain do all the crimes. Though Seymour has a pretty impressive list for an antagonist.Quote:
His crimes are weak compared to what every previous villain and even compared to what Yu-Yevon/Sin was doing in his own game.
Kuja has quite possibly the best motive of the villains in the series. You forget that he only tries to destroy everything towards the end of the game. His real motive for most of the game was to gain freedom from his servitude to Garland. He wanted to be free to do what he wanted. His "Destroy the world" motive is not generic either since Kuja is an artificial lifeform that (to him at least) was created to be perfect. His narcissism is different from previous villains.Quote:
Compared to stuff like:Quote:
His motive was lame
"I'm enslaving the world because I hatehatehateHATE you!"
"If I can't exist, then I'll destroy all the universe!"
Seymour's motive, to send all of Spira into a spiral of death to end their suffering, is very deep.
Kefka, though from a story standpoint is nothing more than a "crazy guy who becomes a god", is much more interesting from a symbolic level. First, he's one of four villains in the series that's actually human. He's also the only villain who does not have a real motive or sob story to explain why he holds his beliefs. Since we have no idea what Kefka was like before the Magitech experiments, blaming them is irrelevant. We only know it made him more crazy. He could have just as well had been an arrogant, cold hearted asshole who never cared about the life of others before as well and the experiments may have just made this more pronounced.
Since it's up to speculation, I don't think either side of the debate can truly use it as a "origin of evil". But Kefka does symbolically represent something that no other villain has before. He's everything wrong with humanity. He's a narcissist, a coward, cruel, wrathful, and a nihilist. That and he's basically a sociopath. He works well for VI cause VI's story is about fighting against human nature. To try and not repeat the mistakes of the past and to hold onto hope for a better tomorrow. Kefka is a wonderful antagonist and villain to coincide with such a theme. Though as a character he has the potential to give us some underlying cause for his insanity and cruelty, he offers nothing. It's just who he is and in the case of sociopaths that's the only true reason most of the time.
Kefka was the first villain (and still the only one to blatanly exclaim his ejoyment of it) to actually revel in the suffereing of others. He doesn'y wipe out humanity when he becomes a god, he destroys everything they have and wipe out's their loved ones so he can enjoy their suffering. He does this for a little more than a year and finally notices the cycle. No matter how amny times he destroyes humanities ambition, they continue to rebuild and hope for a better future. He can't fathom why one would struggle if they know the inheriant suffering that existence brings and thus comes to the conclusion that life is meaningless. That is when he decides to destroy everything...
I feel that is pretty damn deep as well.;)
Kanno, with all due respect (and much respect is due), it seems you're reading way too far into seymour in order to say he's a lame villain, completely disreguarding that most FF villains, especially in the 2d generation, are alot less developed and have very few motivations at all for being a villain. You omit them all except for Kefka, for whom you, again, read way too far into, this time for the sake of creating some synthetic significance for.
On another matter, I think the reason why most people here don't like Seymour, even moreso than his annoyingness, is because he's in a Final Fantasy that has very good graphics. And according to many people on this site, good graphics is a terrible, terrible thing. I feel sorry for them.
Kuja's motive was very cliche. He wanted to replace Garland as the ruler of Terra and Gaia, like he told the party, in Terra. The only thing that makes him diferent from other villains, is that he wanted to conquer TWO worlds, instead of just one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And about Kefka... Symbolism exist to make a character be a little more interesting, but to me, a villain that ONLY have symbolism in his favor, is not a good villain(if we consider a villain only by his/her motives, i mean).
Kefka fans use symbolism to explain why he is so evil, and why he is a good villain, but the fact is... Kefka's motives to be evil in the story are poor. And in the end, this is what really matter. The story. Kefka wasn't literally all the evil in humanity or whatever. This is not part of the story, it's just symbolism. But it doesn't change the fact that his motive is weak.
You cannot pretend that a character is deep, ONLY because of symbolism.
This is just my opinion, i hope that i didn't offend you.
Alright, maybe I went a little too far with the deep analysis (it's in my nature I'm afraid. I can't accept things at face value) and I understand that Kefka is only deep when thought about in a symbolic path but on a literary level he's still just your average crazy guy bent on destroying the world for no real damn good reason.;)
I only used Kuja and Kefka cause they were referenced but I can just as easily use any of the villains except for a few of them. I'm sorry if I came off preachy or anything I just kinda went on a tangent and hit "Submit" without thinking. Most FF villains have lousy motives or are just cliched ridden when it comes down to it but some can be seen in a different light.
Though I disagree with you Bolivar (don't I always:rolleyes2 ) I still feel that Seymour is not the villain of X nor do I feel he's even a good antagonist.
And though your comment was not specifically directed at me, I don't mind good graphics with my games. I just feel that many games ( and even a few oldies fall into this as well) have pretty covers and nothing of value underneath. I don't like FFX, but it's not because it's "pretty". I just feel "being pretty" was the games only strength and to me that's a step backwards. Of course this is only my opinion and nothing more.
This is so stupid, if it wasn't for the much over-dramatised views on Sephiroth over the net then none you would be voting for him. I bet just after you finished FF7, your votes wouldn't have gone for him, as with alot of people, they just like to go against the grain on purpose. Sephiroth was one of the best villians out of any video-game.
Mine is Vegnagun, he was so crappy, and you didn't know what the hell you were really facing until the end of the game.
Many people hate Sephiroth, personally he's ok to me. Its not because of the "Over dramatised views" on Sephiroth. Lots of fans of the old games hated him, argument over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
In the past, Sephiroth was the most overrated villain in the FF series. But today, the spot of "most overrated villain" is occupied by Kefka.
Sephiroth. because he's too overrated and stupid for his infatuation with 'MOTHER'
Seymour- annoying guy that just won't die. his voice sucked too.
How do you know this? Sephiroth is topping the poll. I find it very hard how someone could dislike Sephiroth more than Seymour Guado or Vegnagun. Thats including this forums help of course (and any other FF related forum thats ventured in), because as I said, some people can't help but go against the grain.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoMany people hate Sephiroth, personally he's ok to me. Its not because of the "Over dramatised views" on Sephiroth. Lots of fans of the old games hated him, argument over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
I voted for Kefka just to go against the grain.
I voted for Chaos, not only because you didn't know who you were going to be fighting before you got there, but also because he was way too easy. Come on. 4000 HP? I had him killed before I was done preparing to fight him. And that's not hyperbole.
EDIT: Final Fantasy X-2 didn't really have an end boss. Some say it was Vegnagun and others Shuyin. Yes, you do fight these at the end, but it doesn't count as an end boss. Final Fantasy X-2 was just a bunch of random happenings against the background of Baralai, Nooj, and Gippal chasing Vegnagun and Yuna trying to find Tidus. I liked the game, don't get me wrong. I was just disappointed in the lack of a storyline. Besides Vegnagun and Shuyin were way too easy to be end bosses.
Uhhh.... So is Chaos?
Exdeath. Ugh... He was just a really unimpressive fantasy version of Megatron.
I think Sephiroth is.
I voted for Sephiroth. I just find him uninteresting, and FFVII fanboys make me hate him soooo much. But he killed Aeris, which I commend him for 'cause it was one of the most memorable and realistic moments in Final Fantasy history.
I really like the villians in FFXII though. They aren't necessarily evil (Venat's cause is actually somewhat noble).
And shouldn't Marche be up there? I mean, he went out of his way to destroy Ivalice to return to his home, while the "eenemies" were only trying to protect their home.
P.S. Why is Xemnas on the poll?
Really going out of your way to lie these days, aren’t yoU Crystal?Quote:
Kuja's motive was very cliche. He wanted to replace Garland as the ruler of Terra and Gaia, like he told the party, in Terra. The only thing that makes him diferent from other villains, is that he wanted to conquer TWO worlds, instead of just one.
I’ll use a tactic you know nothing about: EVIDENCE to disprove your weak assertions.
A cliche villain would be power-hungry for the sake of power hungry. He is EVILLLLLL and he does BAD THINGS because...he’s an evil, bad person.
That’s not Kuja.
Kuja: Oh, how I've longed for this day.
Kuja: ...the day I might finally cast away this mask to reveal my true self.
Kuja: The final act will take us away from Gaia, and I will kill my nemesis...with my own hand!
Kuja wants to kill Garland...because he’s just a cliche and evil?
Kuja: I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own!
It was either destroy Garland or Terra’s Resurrection would carry out and the Genomes, vessels for the true people of Terra, would be done for and Kuja’s soul would go to whoever it originated from.
Garland: I constructed the Genomes to be vessels for the souls of the people of Terra when they awaken.
What does Garland say of Kuja’s motivation?
Garland: He is only hiding it. He denies his own identity.
Garland: He rejects the meaning of his existence and tries to assert his own individuality.
Kuja doesn’t want to be seen as a someone else’s creation: as merely a vessel for someone else. He wants to establish his own power, his own will.
Kuja: The weak lose their freedom to the strong.
Kuja: Such is the way of the strong. And it is the providence of nature that only the strong survive.
Kuja: That is why I needed strength
Bu Kuja’s own assertions, it is the “providence of nature” that the weaker beings are subjugated by the stronger. He flatly acknowledges Garland is stronger than him and so he seeks to overcome this. As Hilda said
“ He was a hopeless narcissist”
For someone with such a strong will and ego as well as a philosophy that the strong should be the rulers of all below them, Kuja’s longing for power was a way to justify himself and defy his “destiny.”
Afterall, look at what it is that drives Kuja over the edge.
Garland: There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...
Even as I die, you'll have died without ever leaving your mark on the world...
Kuja will never have the chance he longed for: to reject his existence, the life and destiny of a disposable tool.
Now witness fate’s ultimately cruel irony on the twisted and warped psyche of Kuja’s mind:
Kuja: What comedy! Zidane, isn't it hilarious!? I'll die just like the black mages I so despise!
Kuja: I single-handedly brought chaos unto Gaia, but in the end, I'm nothing but a worthless doll!
Despite his lifelong ambition to attain power to signify his individuality, he would die before he eve rhad the chance to build his “eternal kingdom.” Thus, in the desperate last acts of a man trying to elude the claws of death
Kuja): ...I won't let it happen.
Kuja: I won't... I won't let this world exist without me!
Kuja: Why should the world exist without me? That wouldn't be fair. IfI die, we all die!
In the mind of a half-crazed egotist of the highest order, the destruction of all lesser beings is the only right thing. He, Kuja, is the best and most powerful of all of them. By what right should they live while he perishes?
Kuja’s character and ambitions are merely something many fictional characters wrestle with: Fate. Destiny. The idea that free will is an illusion. Kuja tried to prove himself as an individual by attaining power. He ultimately failed because he could nto escape his destiny.
His final acts, even in the throws of death and after killing Zidane and his crew is to save them all.
Perhaps it is in that act alone Kuja finally escaped his destiny: the destroyer of Gaia, the taker of lives for a master and being a slave. He was a slave all his life...to Garland and his own greed. But in the end, he saved lives.
Kuja is anything but a cliche.
Okay, we really need a forum rule that Forsaken Lover and Crystal aren't allowed to argue eachother anymore. The "most powerful villain"/"absorbing or not absorbing time" argument was months ago and it still goes on! c'mon guys.
if you find Sephiroth uninteresting, I would hate to see what you think of Garland, Golbez/Zemus, and Kefka...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynast-Kid
Kanno, your last post was pure comedy:
don't we all though sometimes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I think my say in this topic is going back to Kefka, in a good way though. Yeah, he was an evil dude like the rest of them, but he was also a coward with the way he did it, it was so.... unlikeable... In other games, you like seeing X-Death/Seph/Kuja onscreen, but Kefka... I can't bring myself around to like him. I guess that means Square did their job....
Originality is a terrible way to rate FF villains. Every single one of them is based on existing archetypes that have been around for years. Power levels, too, is a terrible way to rate villains. A villain only needs enough power to be a threat to the protagonists. Hannibal Lecter can't cause anywhere near the amount of shear destruction as say Majin Buu, but I seriously doubt that anyone would say Buu is a superior villain. The success of a villain should be based primarily on how well they antagonize the protagonists, how well developed their character is and how well they are integrated into the plot.
Just thought I should make that point, since I've seen a lot of these sorts of discussions devolve into 'X is more powerful then Y' or 'Y is more original than Z' on various other forums, which to me seems like a waste of everyone's time.
Vayne Solidor....is the single worst villian in FF.
To me he is ultimatly boring. He never does anything, you just get a load of aiships chasing you ny time you get anywhere near Nethicite. I think so far ive only seen him once and that was (SPOILER) when he became leader of some place, cant remember the name, possibly dalmasca? and im up to Giruvigen.
He is pointless. he does nothing. I bet hes gonna be one of these bosses to randomly appear at the end spouting his mouth off at me.
I thought Seymour was a pretty good villian personally. he was deranged, i like that in my villians!
Sephy....this arguement is gonna go on forever, i personally like him. he was effective, Squareenix needed a villain, they got one, he worked.
Dont believe hes the greatest think since sliced bread though!
Seymore, everytime I play FFX I grit my teeth and drag myself through the parts he's in. Just dont like him, looks annoying, talks annoying and I had no interest in him. Would love to tell him to knock it on the head.
Did you actually pay attention to the story? Vayne is behind probably everything in XII. The reason Dalmasca was invaded, because of Vayne who did it for Cid's research and for his own reasons as well, I guess. Because of Vayne (and Cid) Nabudis was blown up. Vayne killed his own brothers (and his father). He has the death of many on his name and in the end of the game even more, you'll see. He does far from nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXsarahXx
And you see Vayne in the beginning, with Reks, in his speech with Dalmasca, after Ashe is arrested, in the introduction of Doctor Cid, when Gramis is killed. That's more than one time, no?
I know XII's story is love or hate, but pay a bit of attention even when you're bored, kay? And when you fight him he's not some random badguy who showed up to throw speech at you.
And technically, I wouldn't call Vayne a villain, for some part of his ambition can be called somewhat noble... ^^"
Gah, forgot to vote for Seymour. D'oh.
Why all the Sephy hate? He wasn't the most supah duper fabbylicious villain but he wasn't awful.
I was gonna say, i thought Vayne was a real good villain too. The dude was a straight up military genius, and every action, during his whole rise to power throughout the game is no less than Machiavellian (word?). Plus he has such a crazy line for one of his special moves - "What am I to do with those who would oppose me???" Alright not that crazy, but in the context it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpizoDid you actually pay attention to the story? Vayne is behind probably everything in XII. The reason Dalmasca was invaded, because of Vayne who did it for Cid's research and for his own reasons as well, I guess. Because of Vayne (and Cid) Nabudis was blown up. Vayne killed his own brothers (and his father). He has the death of many on his name and in the end of the game even more, you'll see. He does far from nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXsarahXx
And you see Vayne in the beginning, with Reks, in his speech with Dalmasca, after Ashe is arrested, in the introduction of Doctor Cid, when Gramis is killed. That's more than one time, no?
I know XII's story is love or hate, but pay a bit of attention even when you're bored, kay? And when you fight him he's not some random badguy who showed up to throw speech at you.
And technically, I wouldn't call Vayne a villain, for some part of his ambition can be called somewhat noble... ^^"
Unrelated: does anyone think Gramis allowed Vayne to kill him (if that's even what happened), to allow him to disband the senate and assume autocratic powers??? I don't know, I think a thread is in order....
Why yes, I was always under that impression as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Vayne had a lot of cool lines during his special moves (which were all cool as well). Tree of Sephira takes the cake, though.
it's so crazy because it's never blatantly stated exactly what happened. for all we know, the senate REALLY DID poison him, there's just no evidence either way. XII really was a great game.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpizoWhy yes, I was always under that impression as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Vayne had a lot of cool lines during his special moves (which were all cool as well). Tree of Sephira takes the cake, though.
Wow... I ignore this thread for awhile and it's already blown out to near fist fights again...
Thanks for noticing the humor Bolivar. I was starting to get a little out of hand their;)
As for the assasination of Gramis. I agree that the emperoralways gave me the impression he let Vayne get away with it. The whole scenario is really up to specualtion...
You really should create a thread in the XII forums for it though;)
:thumb: I thought he was really boring as well, don't get me wrong he was an ok villain but was he really all that great? Look at the rest of the famous villains! They all were powerful and magical and just really mean, Vayne...well he's mean but he didn't do anything big like the other villains. Look at Sephiroth, I hate the guy but he's really powerful. He killed so many people. Look at Seymour, he was dead! (Awesome!) He killed almost all the ronso, you had to fight him like 3 or 4 times. (I forgot) My point is Vayne isn't as great as the other villains.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXsarahXx
The best villain is Sephiroth, that is all I am going to say :cool:
You love that guy too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comet
It has to be Garland/Chaos from FF1, come on, you don't see him but only two times. The start then the end. How enigmatic...:rolleyes2
To me, the worst is Zemus. It's hard to feel anything about a character that appear for a few seconds in the end of the game, fight you, and die. And he don't have the excuse of "possesing Golbez's body" like with Ultimecia/Edea. He never was present in the story, it was all Golbez with an "evil personality" if you understand what I mean.
Other villains like Zemus are Yu Yevon and Necron(he is the worst).
I prefer villains that are following the game with you.
Zemus isn't the only one though, and Necron is a brief "FF-throwback" at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Most FF main-villains remain unseen until the end of the game, but they are directly controlling all the events that take place throughout the course of the game. Chaos, Ultimecia, Xande and Sephiroth also fall under this category, I would put Yu Yevon in there also, as he is the actual villain, the rest are to tie up the loose ends of the story. To me that's just the style FF assumes in many cases, so I wouldn't call Zemus the worst for that reason.
If you are talking about final bosses, i agree with you. But most of the final bosses aren't necessarily the main villains. And many main-villains appear during the entire game. Some of them appear in person, others use the body of someone/something else to interact with you, but they are there, causing trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Zemus is the entire game in the moon, and his "minions" are the guys causing trouble. All because of him, of course. But he did nothing directly, he just give the "orders". I don't like these type of villains, not only in FF but in any work of fiction.
I find Villians that aren't constantly throwing their name out there the most believable. Think about it, you're trying to destroy/take over/whatever the world, everyone's going to want to kill you, so you can't just put you're own head on the line, you have to make it look like others are in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalIf you are talking about final bosses, i agree with you. But most of the final bosses aren't necessarily the main villains. And many main-villains appear during the entire game. Some of them appear in person, others use the body of someone/something else to interact with you, but they are there, causing trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Zemus is the entire game in the moon, and his "minions" are the guys causing trouble. All because of him, of course. But he did nothing directly, he just give the "orders". I don't like these type of villains, not only in FF but in any work of fiction.
Ap bup bup bup bup!Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
The whole game was About Ultimecia using the other sorceresses as puppets to achieve time compression!
I haven't played FF4 but if what people are saying about Zeromus is true then I'll go with Zeromus.
Well I've only played 1,7,8,10.and 12.
Anyway, the one I hated the most was Sephy, but in the emotional hate that is supposed to be generated. Hell, I knew that Aeris would die, and I still was devestated when she died. He just was pure evil.
Ulti or whatever her name was, I hated. So stupid.
Choas was the one who invoked the most apathy (oxymoron?). Who cares. But maybe thats because he didnt shove a sword in my white mage's back.