My problems with the story

Ok, so this isn't a bash at the game because I love it but it is an honest view on the story.

The story isn't great. It's straight forward. I feel as though if there were more involvement with Vayne earlier on in the story then there would be so much more connection with the characters. Often in FF the characters wouldatleast interact with the main enemy earlier on in the story instead of 3/4 the way through!

I also feel that the steaks for the characters just AREN'T high enough. I don't want to compare FF's because each is different but i have to here. In previous FF's one got the impression that if they did not stop this villain the world as they knew it would end, their lives would be lost, all would be doomed etc. however, in this episode I got the impression that there just wasn't enough panic.. or fear. Some character's even quoted "I'm just along for the ride". There was no reason for them to fight, and therefore, this took away from their connection with the story and the seriousness of their actions.

I love this game, but if there had been more memorable interactions, reasons and character development i think it could easily have been one of the best, if not THE best, FF.

*waits for Renmiris arrival, and for that of Wolf Kannos*

Eh, I disagree, but that's just me. I didn't have major problems with the story, just needed more judge time.

While reading through your earlier points, I began to ponder thoughts and conclude that I was gonna post a straight argument, defending this wonderful game, but some of your later sentences do make sense. I understand what you mean by how much potential this game had install, and how they didn't capitalize on their chance to make it one step better than previous Final Fantasy games.

Your point about Vayne was something I couldn't agree with, because the threat was not only from Vayne, but also because of how other supernatural doings were occurring at the time. The Occuria, nethicate, manufactured nethicate and other odd things were all suddenly happening at the time. As you browse through the towns, and occasionally make conversation with the civilians they certainly are worried for the future of Ivalice, and begin to fear the empire. It's also effective how you don't personally meet Vayne until the end, and how you keep your distance, slowly making your move as the resistance. The cutscenes are dealt with wistfully, as they show what's happening on the good side, and also the goings on the evil side. It's an authentic way of portraying how both sides are getting closer to their goals, and are also reaching closer to another. So I would consider that a unique way of distant interaction.

I'm not gonna run through the emotions of each character, but I believe they all felt some anxiety as they knew what huge mission they were taking on. They just didn't want to show it, and most of the party are tough, and have robust exterior, and I'm basing from the amount of background I extracted from them, while playing through the game. I would say they were much more mature than other FF parties.

I guess you could say that Vaan and Penelo were there for the ride, but it was their choice to either depart from the main party in Bhujerba (Be left in unknown whereabouts) or help out the team while they were in this tricky predicament, and maybe Balthier and Fran had cemented and unrecognizable deal with the two; a way of showing trust for their helpfulness in battle, or just not ever feeling bothered to prize them away from the mission itself. All in all, it never concerned anyone why the two youngsters from Rabanastre pursed the journey. Who knows? Maybe it was for self-enjoyment.

There were a lot of memorable quotes in this game, and I would say it's many transgressed from hunts or listening closely to interactions with judges. I think XII had one of the best pieces of dialog, and the olden text was a big factor for me, in actually liking the game. The passionate personalities from the judges, but sometimes wavered from slyness, deceitfulness and loyalty. A very good mixture.

Overall the game is fantastic, but it depends on the person's taste for gaming, and whether it fits their idyllic agenda.

First of all, given the perspective of the story meeting Vayne first hand would not have made sense. Vayne is a shadow character working the insides of politics until the death of the Emperor.

Secondly, saving the world every game is getting pretty humdrum. The mission in this game was way more realistic. The lines were unclear to Penelo and Vaan, that's the way life usually is. History rarely posts a giant sign saying, "hey, here is the big bad villain! Please kill to save the world."

I thought FF12 presents hope for the future of this series, by expanding its audience and growing up plot wise.

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Originally Posted by Setzer Gabianni

*waits for Renmiris arrival, and for that of Wolf Kannos*

Eh, I disagree, but that's just me. I didn't have major problems with the story, just needed more judge time.

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Hihi! Me and WK pretty much narrowed it down to differences in taste. :p

I felt the same as the OP but I won't take away your right to enjoy the game story if it floats your boat.

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

I guess you could say that Vaan and Penelo were there for the ride, but it was their choice to either depart from the main party in Bhujerba (Be left in unknown whereabouts) or help out the team while they were in this tricky predicament, and maybe Balthier and Fran had cemented and unrecognizable deal with the two; a way of showing trust for their helpfulness in battle, or just not ever feeling bothered to prize them away from the mission itself. All in all, it never concerned anyone why the two youngsters from Rabanastre pursed the journey. Who knows? Maybe it was for self-enjoyment.

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See, that is what I dislike about the story: You (Hazzard) have to make up stuff as you go through it, to make the story make sense. The author couldn't be bothered (or so I thought). And it made me angry at SE and the author. I recently found out the main author had to leave the project before it finished because of personal illness, so now I am more forgiving with all the plot holes the poor guy left.

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Originally Posted by Bashini

First of all, given the perspective of the story meeting Vayne first hand would not have made sense.

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Vayne is actually one of the very first characters you encounter. He was in the room with Reks and Basch at Nalbina and he is the consul that Miguelo prepared the dinner for. I'm glad you agree that the story doesn't make sense though ;)

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Originally Posted by Bashini

The mission in this game was way more realistic. The lines were unclear to Penelo and Vaan, that's the way life usually is.

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That "realistic" arguments makes me giggle every time I hear it. I don't know about you but I have never personally seen moogles, espers, magick and such in my reality.

On a more serious note, the bombing of a refugee camp is a MAJOR event in real life and in Ivalice the bombing of Mt. Bur-Omisace was shrugged off as the poor kiltians business. I found that added "realism" of shrugging off genocide of unarmed people extremely distasteful.

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Originally Posted by Bashini

I thought FF12 presents hope for the future of this series, by expanding its audience and growing up plot wise.

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Ahh.. the "grownup" argument.. Another one of my pet peeves.

Grownups take responsibility for their actions. They make sure to right wrongs and help the people who sacrificed for them. Even crooks help each other and have loyalty / gratitude. Ashe promptly forgot that the Gran Kiltias gave his life to buy Ashe and her team more time. Neither her nor Larsa nor Al Cid give a rats arse about the Kiltians and their wounded. Ashe also ignored the friends who saved her life and her kingdom. She had "queen things" to do, let her friends, the Kiltians and Reddas friends, in a crisis over power and direction at Balfonheim fend for themselves.

This game showed a bunch of spoiled brats vying for power and ignoring all that aided them, after getting said power.

Nothing furthest from "grownup" in my dictionary.

I'm aware that my first post could be perceived as quite naiive and immature. Just thought i'd clear that up :p

Hazard, I agree that it is that Vayne is working from the inside and this creates slight tension but the player is not shown enough what is happening, and due to the phrasing of the story I feel it often breaks up the tension. Yes, technically, Vayne is one of the first characters you see, but when is it really clear he is the enemy? Is it his unforgiving PR English accent? It's clear that this is a very politically driven game, like FFX focused mainly on religion, but it seems as though their deliverence of it all was very shallow. I understand that this is a new FF and I shouldn't compare it to previous FF's but I feel that if they had encountered Vayne, in person, their would be more purpose to the characters. The enemy is what is meant to drive the characters to fight for what they believe in and I never really receieved this urge from them.

Walking through the towns is a good way to get to know the political swaying of Ivalice but I never got the feeling that things were urgent. I felt that there wasn't a war and that nothing really changed in Ivalice from the beginning to where I am at the moment (about 70-80% through). To me, personally, there never seemed to be much substance.

I'm just not really sure whether or not it was on purpose or purely by ignorance the developers thought "let's not really concentrate of the characters", i'm hoping it's the first.

The story doesn't really feel like a story, but it just seems like it has been based upon a theme, politics. The theme is so strong that it overrides the real purpose and story of the game. It feels as though there could have been more memorable moments and instead one was just going from A to B to retrieve item so that one could move on the next area and then repeat. This is a totally acceptable thing, but maaan, they could have put more dialouge in or more interaction or more story development along the way.

Finally, I agree that this is the most "realistic" of FF's. However, the gamer should not HAVE to work out what is going on, just becuase it is realistic does not mean that it should be void of information. It's like an interactive book. We should have been informed much more and told much more. It could've been a fuller thing. Perhaps this was because of the script writers illness, perhaps not. It just feels they could have put more in.

Again, i love this game.

How do you know they don't give a rats arse Renmiri? Larsa couldn't do anything to help, Al-Cid, who knows what he did. He was injured too, so it's not as if he could have done anything for the people at the time. Stop jumping to conclusions, and assuming things woman >.>

I don't get the whole dialogue problem. They had necessary interaction, you can't expect copious amounts from people who have only recently met up. They're not like the characters of X for example, who are all pretty much connected to Yuna. These people are different. They interacted, in my opinion, the way any normal group of people would have done.

As for realism, yeah, we're not stupid. We know moogles aren't realistic, people are most probably referring to character behaviours or something, the goal even. It's like you completely ignored what Bashini was saying Renmiri, the point of that statement, and gone onto say "well ive never seen moogles or magick befor lolz."

Here we go again - pointless Ashe criticising. She didn't abandon everybody, she was kind at time, but for the most of the time, she did seem aloof. But she never forgot people, their actions, what they did etc - since when does a normal Queen interact with common/everyday folk eh? Not often, and only on special occasions. Because of who she was, she had to act like a Queen, and rule her country. If the role of Queen allowed her more freedom, allowed her to meet with her best buddies all the time, then she would have done. Her friends also went different ways, so to blame Ashe solely for "neglecting" her friends is somewhat out of order. Basch took over Gabranths place. Vaan, has taken to the skies more now. Balthier and Fran, back to doing what they always do best. Pennelo, back to working as usual. These people have things of their own to do as well, which makes it harder for Ashe to meet them.

I wouldn't assume either about Ashe forgetting what the Gran Kiltias did for her. But what else could she do at that time for the Kiltias in general? The Kiltias would probably say that they would take care of things, like they always take care of their matters - interaction with other nations seems less then it used to be. They used to receive donations from places, but that seems to have stopped now, so they have to start looking after themselves. Ashe as well as the others felt devastated, as any compassionate human/other race would do at the slaughter. But what else could they have done? They had to continue on with their mission, and reach the ultimate sexiness of a crazy doctor that was Cid.

Er, Renmiri, you've got the wrong end of the stick I think concerning that Vayne comment. Bashini said it wouldn't have made sense meeting Vayne first hand would not have made sense - I'm guessing this would be something like, pretty much right near the beginning, exc the whole pre game war thing, where he cornered Basch. Bashini never said the story didn't make sense.

You didn't have to make things up to understand the story. I didn't. There's one thing I've noticed you're doing Renmiri - you're making poor assumptions about Ashe. You can argue there was missing information, blah blah, but we understood enough to know about the characters etc.

I'm done. :D

the biggest problem i had with the story is the dependence on items and objects.

I made peace with the FFXII story in that last thread(name escapes me at this present moment). But in saying that. The plot in this story suffers from the lack of an outright main character. At first I thought it was to take the same story format FFVI took when you get given pieces of story about each character from time to time as the story progresses but it was not to be. At the same time with the lack of originality in the main story one needs to look to the back story of Ivalice for your story enjoyment in FFXII. Reading through the Bestary as you add new monsters especially the Marks & Espers you read about things not relivant to the actual plot but they are far more interesting.

Aside from that I'm looking forward to reading the debate that seems to be erupting here though.:p :D :choc2:

Personally, I'm glad they took a different approach to the plot and characters in FFXII. Who really wants to see yet another rehash of the old formula?

"The universe is in peril, and only we can save it, so let's talk about our feelings!!!"

I don't mean to mock, since I love plenty of games that use that premise, but I was pleased that FFXII went in a different direction.

Sure, a lot of the main characters don't really have a "personal connection" to the plot - but then, the crisis they face is a truly global one, affecting everyone equally. Virtually any Rabanastran, for instance, would have as much reason to fight as Vaan and Penelo; those two just had the courage - and the chance meetings with Balthier, Fran and Ashe - that allowed them to take part. They didn't need horribly contrived back-stories about how their families were part of some big conspiracy with the antagonist, or anything like we've seen in FFVII or VIII.

I'd agree that the plot is fairly "straightforward", in that it progresses and explains itself at a reasonable pace. Again, it's a different style of storytelling, so it's nice to have a change. Yet another super-convoluted plot, with elaborate mysteries that only make sense the second or third time you play through the game, aren't essential to a fun and involving story. While XII may be straightforward, it's by no means simple and predictable; there were plenty of revelations and surprised along the way, for instance the revelations about the (SPOILER)Occuria.

I made my peace with XII's story too, but I get really annoyed at the "is more mature / realistic / grownup" crowd. Meh... To each his own I guess

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Originally Posted by CloudedSquall

Finally, I agree that this is the most "realistic" of FF's. However, the gamer should not HAVE to work out what is going on, just becuase it is realistic does not mean that it should be void of information. It's like an interactive book. We should have been informed much more and told much more. It could've been a fuller thing. Perhaps this was because of the script writers illness, perhaps not. It just feels they could have put more in.

Again, i love this game.

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What do you feel is missing? In a media free society, who is going to give Vayne, Ashe or Larsa an anal exam?

"Grownups take responsibility for their actions. They make sure to right wrongs and help the people who sacrificed for them. Even crooks help each other and have loyalty / gratitude. Ashe promptly forgot that the Gran Kiltias gave his life to buy Ashe and her team more time. Neither her nor Larsa nor Al Cid give a rats arse about the Kiltians and their wounded. Ashe also ignored the friends who saved her life and her kingdom. She had "queen things" to do, let her friends, the Kiltians and Reddas friends, in a crisis over power and direction at Balfonheim fend for themselves."

Helping each other in the plot has nothing to do with the maturity of the story. A political saga is generally harder for an immature brain to handle then the typical FF fairy tale. One is not necessarily better then an the other, but it will attract a different group of people. Not to mention that some of the most depraved acts in human history were performed by adults.

Secondly Lady Ashe would not have had lasting grief over the death of the Gran Kiltias. She did not know him that well. Besides the fact that Lady Ashe had no power at the time to help the Kiltians after the invasion. Once she had attained the throne she would have had power to send aid, if Emperor Larsa permitted it. The Kiltians were probably considered part of the empire at that point.

Also if they went through and showed all the treaties, peace conferences, negotiations, hand outs, trials, ect. to right all the wrongs during the game the final movie would have had to have its own disc, and as far as the story telling aspect goes, would have been completely pointless.

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Originally Posted by CloudedSquall

Ok, so this isn't a bash at the game because I love it but it is an honest view on the story.

The story isn't great. It's straight forward. I feel as though if there were more involvement with Vayne earlier on in the story then there would be so much more connection with the characters. Often in FF the characters wouldatleast interact with the main enemy earlier on in the story instead of 3/4 the way through!

I also feel that the steaks for the characters just AREN'T high enough. I don't want to compare FF's because each is different but i have to here. In previous FF's one got the impression that if they did not stop this villain the world as they knew it would end, their lives would be lost, all would be doomed etc. however, in this episode I got the impression that there just wasn't enough panic.. or fear. Some character's even quoted "I'm just along for the ride". There was no reason for them to fight, and therefore, this took away from their connection with the story and the seriousness of their actions.

I love this game, but if there had been more memorable interactions, reasons and character development i think it could easily have been one of the best, if not THE best, FF.

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I disagree on most of your points. I like that XII stuck to saving your characters homeland. I direct you to Big D's post for the reason why. I like the honesy in it all and I hate utilitaristic (sp? hell is that even a word?) nonsense about people waking up to save the world when they all get involved for rather selfish reasons. But that's just my opinion. I think the idea of characters racing against time to stop a major war, that will destroy everything important to them, was pretty intense. Granted a few scenes of skirmishes and possibly some more feedback from Rozarrio would have presented it better. Overall, I think the story is fine and one of the better plots and casts to come out of the series in a LOOOOOOOOOONNNNGGG time.

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

On a more serious note, the bombing of a refugee camp is a MAJOR event in real life and in Ivalice the bombing of Mt. Bur-Omisace was shrugged off as the poor kiltians business. I found that added "realism" of shrugging off genocide of unarmed people extremely distasteful.

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As I stated in another thread. We are dealing with monarchs and more of an ancient world mentality. No one is going to really say anything about Burimasce cause no one wants to die. Nalbina prison has enough people in it that spoke against the empire. Not to mention the NPC's that mention the event are more worried about getting wasted by the Archadian Military since they had no issue killing civillians and refugee's in order to wipe out a few dissenters. Historically speaking, that's how the real world works.

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Originally Posted by Bashini

I thought FF12 presents hope for the future of this series, by expanding its audience and growing up plot wise.

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Ahh.. the "grownup" argument.. Another one of my pet peeves.

Grownups take responsibility for their actions. They make sure to right wrongs and help the people who sacrificed for them. Even crooks help each other and have loyalty / gratitude. Ashe promptly forgot that the Gran Kiltias gave his life to buy Ashe and her team more time. Neither her nor Larsa nor Al Cid give a rats arse about the Kiltians and their wounded. Ashe also ignored the friends who saved her life and her kingdom. She had "queen things" to do, let her friends, the Kiltians and Reddas friends, in a crisis over power and direction at Balfonheim fend for themselves.

This game showed a bunch of spoiled brats vying for power and ignoring all that aided them, after getting said power.

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People taking responsibility for their actions? Grownups making sure to right wrongs? I don't know what fantasy world you've been living in and I don't want anything to do with it;)

Seriously, when has anyone "willingly" fessed up to making a major mistake? If people took responsibility for their actions we wouldn't have lawyers or even a court system. Ideally we want to be this way but no one ever really falls through with it.

People will always try to take the easy way out. It's just human nature. Adults are, psychologically speaking, children with pretentious and inflated ideas about themselves. No dictator has ever willingly took responsibility for his actions. Most people won't take responsibility for their actions unless they are forced to by either a "worst case scenario" or being caught red handed. watching CNN for 10 minutes is proof of this.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

People will always try to take the easy way out. It's just human nature. Adults are, psychologically speaking, children with pretentious and inflated ideas about themselves. No dictator has ever willingly took responsibility for his actions. Most people won't take responsibility for their actions unless they are forced to by either a "worst case scenario" or being caught red handed. watching CNN for 10 minutes is proof of this.

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Oh yeh of little faith..... Before GW Bush those things happened. Even today, outside US adults still do it. A pity we in US have to live with a congress and a WH loaded with childish petulant 5 year olds! :mad:

I've always said this game has a great story. As far as Ashe and Vaan not having anything to do, not true - they were orphans who decided to step up for their homeland, just like the rebels in II.

It's the storytelling in this game that flat out sucks and they should have spent alot more time thinking about how to present it. To me, the storytelling was a huge step back for the FF series. At any point where there's character interaction, the game shuts off and a movie commences, and at times it's a very boring movie. In the rest of the series, alot of action and dialogue happens on the regular field screen - in FFXII this is an impossibility. I consider that to be very embarrassing for the XII team.

This is also a departure in that unlike every other FF, this game is not in an apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic setting - it's about the events in a specific region (surrounding Dalmasca) within a specific region (Ivalice) of the world. This game could've been done in a spin-off. But overall it's still a pretty good game.

He has some points. The story was very straight forward, and sometimes I wondered why Vaan and Penelo tagged along for the ride. The main character's purpose on the journey should never be in question.

Vayne should of probably had a bit more interaction with the main party. It makes sense towards the end where says to Ashe.

"Who are you?" Lol I know it was a rhetorical question, but it was fitting. Maybe he should of had some sort of connection with one of the characters. Like when Gabranth aids you, THEN he has some connection with the group. But Gabranth joining at the very end was nessecarry, any earlier would of sucked.

The Judges sort of compensate for Vayne's non-interactivity. Vayne in himself was a good villain, but they should of made him meet the party like once or something.

The Judges are the absolute best villains of all time. As Seterizo or w/e said a few pages ago, they needed more time.