Esper? WTF!!

my favorite ff game is hands down X. i heart it. not sure why, but i do. i really enjoyed how the aeons were tied in to the story, provided aid in big fights (i never have taken down sin with a weapon) and i also liked their attack structure (characters, not time).

i was extremely dissappointed with the way FXII handled espers. they ended up being extremely useless to me, and you had to fight them to get them! also, they were timed so they went away before they could help. i am so very dissappointed.

thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Anno Domini

my favorite ff game is hands down X. i heart it. not sure why, but i do. i really enjoyed how the aeons were tied in to the story, provided aid in big fights (i never have taken down sin with a weapon) and i also liked their attack structure (characters, not time).

i was extremely dissappointed with the way FXII handled espers. they ended up being extremely useless to me, and you had to fight them to get them! also, they were timed so they went away before they could help. i am so very dissappointed.

thoughts?

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I agree completely. They were way too easy to defeat, too useless in battles, and had little involvement in the storyline. Espers is one of the main reasons I consider this FF one of the worse.

i agree as well, but my main problem with them is that your party has to disappear except for the summoner, i found this very limiting and i couldn't use them in big fights because they could be killed so quickly. overall i fond the espers a big letdown.

Until any of you can present your ideas in a literate fashion, your opinions are worthless. While espers where nigh useless in the end-game, if you got them earlier, they were incredibly useful. They all have several moves, but its tricky to get them to be used. But if you can, they certainly have their moments.

They were disappointing overall.


But try and post in English. ;)

What does 'i heart it' mean?

EDIT: Aha!

In principle, the idea of evil Espers that had to be subdued and enslaved was an intriguing one. It certainly dovetails nicely with the Lucavi of FFT; now we know what the other possesors of the Zodiac Stones would have become had they been corrupted.

It felt like the Esper designers took Anima to the logical extreme. The concepts of slavery and bondage (especially with Mateus and Zalera), along with large monsters like dragons and tortoises echoes rather explicitly the enslavement of Rabanastre and its people. So they fit in (although in a disturbing way).

As for actual usage, they are generally overpowered for most regular monsters, so I use them the most for Marks and some bosses, especially ones with elemental weaknesses to exploit. But unlike some of the most devatating summons (like KoTR), I don't generally use them against the toughest bosses and Elite Marks; there's simply better ways to deal damage.

I think Anno Domini means 'I :heart: it.'

I agree about them being useless because for a great majority of the game they can easily be killed even by regular enemies. Belias is partial fun when you first get him, but afterwards there was no point in them, besides having some extra challenging battles and extra MP. They weren't even story related either which made them less memorable. You said something about having to fight them is a minus? In several FFs you had to fight at least one summon before you get them like Anima in X, almost all of them in VIII, I don't think any in VII, but I have to play that again, and I definetly know in IV you had to fight several in that as well.

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Originally Posted by BG-57

I think Anno Domini means 'I :heart: it.'

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Anno Domini means "The Year of (Our) Lord", not "I :heart: it". Your translator must be screwy. Oh, you meant what Anno intended to say. *Gets hit for being a smart@$$*

The Espers actually fail because of the Mist System, which was, in my mind, a insanely bad execution of FFTA's JP system. The two systems are very similar, involving a point tabulation that could be used to either unleash a combo attack or summon a monster. Unfortunately, unlike FFTA, the points required to use those abilities in FFXII are also your MP. End result: You have a single stat having its functionality split between too many different purposes for it to be effective. As in FFVIII, magic gets cannibilized to different purposes. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now. Switch Mist Charges back to a separate counter that isn't tied into your buffing/healing abilities, and I think the Espers would have worked fine. Square Enix just needs to stop screwing with alternative uses for magic.

As far as their function in battle, Espers were an incredible failure. That's indisputable. Their usefulness was exceedingly limited, and because of the system described above, the MP they used could be put to infinitely more effective manners of defeating enemies.

That aside, I felt that the Espers in FFXII were among the most interesting to appear in any game in the series. Their history revealed in the bestiary entries was really interesting. I generally found the back story of Ivalice far more interesting than the actual story of FFXII, and the Espers were a good part of this. It was also nice to see a deviation from the staple summons of the series. A little break from the norm is nice every so often.

The espers are just for fun, something that you would do if you were bored :)

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

As far as their function in battle, Espers were an incredible failure. That's indisputable. Their usefulness was exceedingly limited, and because of the system described above, the MP they used could be put to infinitely more effective manners of defeating enemies.

That aside, I felt that the Espers in FFXII were among the most interesting to appear in any game in the series. Their history revealed in the bestiary entries was really interesting. I generally found the back story of Ivalice far more interesting than the actual story of FFXII, and the Espers were a good part of this. It was also nice to see a deviation from the staple summons of the series. A little break from the norm is nice every so often.

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I agree with all this.
I found the espers sporadically useful at lower levels, but less helpful as my posse got harder.

Still, if the espers were as tough as the summons in previous games, then (the same) people would be complaining that they're too powerful and they make combat too easy. FFXII's espers are weaker, but far more strategic in their use.

Final Fantasy X's summons were ridiculously strong. You could kill the final boss with, like, one hit from the Magus Sisters' overdrive. The summons in XII are at the opposite end of the suckiness spectrum. :P

Espers do suck,but i have one use for them,hit-and-run sniping.it sounds odd,but it works.i usually use it when im overwhelmed(wich is rare now)and i have only 1 person alive.i summon an Esper and i use it to kill the enemies from afar,while running back and forth to make sure that the monsters are at maximum hitable distance

the onli time i used espers were when i was training by mself.
whenever i used n esper agianst a boss they would normaly die in 1 it which was stink.

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Espers is one of the main reasons I consider this FF one of the worse.

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Yeah... when I decide whether I like a game or not, I don't care about graphics, gameplay, story... none of that... what I look for is if there are summons that are deeply tied to every element that are so overpowered that they make the game a breeze. That's the only thing that really matters.

[/sarc]

While they might've played a bigger role, I don't think the game is horribly at fault for not making them center stage. FF VIII and FF X both had ridiculously overpowered summons that took away much from the gameplay (though FFX handled it better imo).


With every FF that comes out I see people jumping to compare how it doesn't measure up because it didn't copy the exact system used in a previous FF. However, the moment they keep something exactly the same, another group will complain about the lack of originality by the designers.

They are all decent games with flaws and triumphs that cater to the tastes of different people. Rather than letting one tiny flaw (subjective flaw) ruin the game for me, I look at what's good.

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Anno Domini means "The Year of (Our) Lord", not "I <3 it". Your translator must be screwy. Oh, you meant what Anno intended to say. *Gets hit for being a smart@$$*

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:D wins

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

As far as their function in battle, Espers were an incredible failure. That's indisputable. Their usefulness was exceedingly limited, and because of the system described above, the MP they used could be put to infinitely more effective manners of defeating enemies.

That aside, I felt that the Espers in FFXII were among the most interesting to appear in any game in the series. Their history revealed in the bestiary entries was really interesting. I generally found the back story of Ivalice far more interesting than the actual story of FFXII, and the Espers were a good part of this. It was also nice to see a deviation from the staple summons of the series. A little break from the norm is nice every so often.

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I AGREE COMPLETELY.

I was extremely excited upon purchasing the game and guide and reading these backstories... but then I actually played through the game to find that no one in FFXII land cared... ;_;

And yes, they were useless except in their pokemon appeal-- getting them all, even the lame ones... which ended up being all of them... sad days...

At least the looked nice...?

I agree that the espers were pretty much worthless and not needed at all. Though the only esper I thought useful was Zodiark but he was only useful for the battle against (SPOILER)Hellwyrm the stone tactic was really good and useful I was able to use Zodiarks final attack about 10 times against it.

the espers were just a waste of time.
when i first played and saw espers i was happy but when i used them they were really weak and didnt even bother using them later on.
whenever u use them against bosses they die like in 1 hit which wasnt cool.

The only thing i liked about espers was the way they looked and thier final abilities (the abilities that take a special technique to trigger )

I actually liked the espers in this game. Several of them were quite useful, you just have to know how to use them. And I prefer them to the absurdly powerful summons in some other games.

And the backstories were great. I just wish they figured more into the plot.

The terrible things about the espers was going around exploring and then realizing a battle was starting and you suddenly could not leave the area.

I didn't ASK to find Zeromus!

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Originally Posted by rubah

The terrible things about the espers was going around exploring and then realizing a battle was starting and you suddenly could not leave the area.

I didn't ASK to find Zeromus!

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Zeromus the Condemner... Stone of the Condemner... Sort of a connection there. And the Nu Mou around the area where you get the stone will tell you all about Zeromus and how he was sealed in the Stillshrine.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by BG-57

I think Anno Domini means 'I :heart: it.'

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Anno Domini means "The Year of (Our) Lord", not "I :heart: it". Your translator must be screwy. Oh, you meant what Anno intended to say. *Gets hit for being a smart@$$*

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Actually, because of it is ablative, it means "In year of lord." (or In the year of our lord." Just it forgot to include the word "in." Or either it is an indirect object (which makes no sense) or an ablative of means, which also makes no sense. It isn't nomnative, otherwise it would be Annus domini.

Anyways, back on topic, the espers were rather disappointing. Although I don't you needing to fight them to get them was a big deal, as most summons were gotten that way. It seems more like you complaining about something that is normal in the FF games when you say that.

But they don't seem that useful at all. They have their uses, especially if you get them early on, otherwise no...

After a while in most FF games summons prove pretty pointless, so, it really doesn't bother me I guess.

I agree with the amount of limited use that the espers provide, another point which points to there unusefullness is that some espers actually require you to cast a negative ailment on yuorself before you summon it! That is actually some risky business if you think about it.

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Originally Posted by Anno Domini

my favorite ff game is hands down X. i heart it. not sure why, but i do. i really enjoyed how the aeons were tied in to the story, provided aid in big fights (i never have taken down sin with a weapon) and i also liked their attack structure (characters, not time).

i was extremely dissappointed with the way FXII handled espers. they ended up being extremely useless to me, and you had to fight them to get them! also, they were timed so they went away before they could help. i am so very dissappointed.

thoughts?

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You fought espers in IV, VI (Shiva / Ifrit), VIII, and X. This is nothing new. Also, the fact that you've never actually defeated Sin with your character sort of sucks out some fun, doesn't it? I think it would for me. Overpowered summons < Underpowered summons.

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I agree completely. They were way too easy to defeat, too useless in battles, and had little involvement in the storyline. Espers is one of the main reasons I consider this FF one of the worse.

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FFXII is the worst Final Fantasy because of one optional gameplay element? This makes worlds of sense. I also think FFXII is the worst because of its sweeping storyline, fleshed out world, interesting characters, amazing graphics, countless side missions, and fresh gameplay ideas.

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Originally Posted by BG-57

It felt like the Esper designers took Anima to the logical extreme. The concepts of slavery and bondage (especially with Mateus and Zalera), along with large monsters like dragons and tortoises echoes rather explicitly the enslavement of Rabanastre and its people. So they fit in (although in a disturbing way).

As for actual usage, they are generally overpowered for most regular monsters, so I use them the most for Marks and some bosses, especially ones with elemental weaknesses to exploit. But unlike some of the most devatating summons (like KoTR), I don't generally use them against the toughest bosses and Elite Marks; there's simply better ways to deal damage.

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I loved the design of the Espers in FFXII. I pretty much used them the same way you did, and thats where I found their uses. Also, battling them was just a fun side mission.

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Originally Posted by Zora

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by BG-57

I think Anno Domini means 'I :heart: it.'

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Anno Domini means "The Year of (Our) Lord", not "I :heart: it". Your translator must be screwy. Oh, you meant what Anno intended to say. *Gets hit for being a smart@$$*

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Actually, because of it is ablative, it means "In year of lord." (or In the year of our lord." Just it forgot to include the word "in." Or either it is an indirect object (which makes no sense) or an ablative of means, which also makes no sense. It isn't nomnative, otherwise it would be Annus domini.

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<3.

I found them completely useless too. I summoned Belias once right after I got him just to have a look, and that was the one and only time I summoned anything and I am now on my second playthrough.

And I dislike their looks too. Where is Shiva and Ifrit? (except for being an airship, that is).

Generally, I found Quickenings more effective against Bosses and Elite Marks. They're also easier to unlock than the Espers are, since you don't have to win a battle before you can learn the license.

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Originally Posted by Tabris

I found them completely useless too. I summoned Belias once right after I got him just to have a look, and that was the one and only time I summoned anything and I am now on my second playthrough.

And I dislike their looks too. Where is Shiva and Ifrit? (except for being an airship, that is).

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My best guess is since they set FFXII in the same world as Ivalice that provided origin stories of the Lucavi (half of the Espers appear as boss monsters in FFT).

Ironically Shiva and Ifrit are available as regular summons in FFT, so they'll appear in the future of Ivalice, if not the present.

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Originally Posted by Tabris

And I dislike their looks too. Where is Shiva and Ifrit? (except for being an airship, that is).

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The tradition FF summons are on the sky region of Lemures, Leviathan specifically dwells there. Since the auracite of that game are in fact the Zodiac stones, it makes for an interesting explanation how the stones and ff-summons got to west ivalice. As far as Bahamut, his origin is revealed in the final battle of XII.

I wanna come in here in defence of FFXII. The Esper system is representative of the game itself - in that people came into the game expecting something completely different and as a result, a large amount of people got turned off from the game (including me initially). I can delve into this more, but that's for another thread.

FFXII is all about strategy, and as such, you have to know how to work the Espers to your advantage to make them useful. Unlike previous games, they're not safety nets that you could fall back on to overpower your enemies - you have to put some thought into it, and in doing so you'll be rewarded with powerhouses. My first two playthroughs I found them useless but on my current one I have to say they are extremely useful.

The main problem is keeping them alive, and since early on you most likely wont have more than 1 mist charge, it can be a major turn off when you don't have a way to heal them. Potions are a must. If you can do that, then they will cause crazy damage over and over again climaxed by a huge attack. And if you can use the right ones to exploit an elemental weakness, it makes for an incredibly easy win. Granted, eventually they will start being killed off easily even by regular monsters, but at that point you need to go out and get the 2-mist charge ones, and then eventually the 3.

Like I said, they're not the overpowered trump cards of previous installments - you have to put some thought into it. But if you do you may find it very rewarding. Like others said, the backstory of them was very interesting; it's kinda eerie how the scions helping you in your struggle in XII are the demons who were trying to resurrect their fallen leader in Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Rubah Lapah

The terrible things about the espers was going around exploring and then realizing a battle was starting and you suddenly could not leave the area.

I didn't ASK to find Zeromus!

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Similar things have happened to me. Many of the Espers were found entirely outside of the storyline and gaining a new one was a matter of getting around to collect one.

I felt that the Espers should have had a larger involvement in the story or served a more purposeful existence in gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Like I said, they're not the overpowered trump cards of previous installments - you have to put some thought into it. But if you do you may find it very rewarding. Like others said, the backstory of them was very interesting; it's kinda eerie how the scions helping you in your struggle in XII are the demons who were trying to resurrect their fallen leader in Tactics.

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Was it confirmed that the Espers in Final Fantasy XII are the same as those in Final Fantasy Tactics?

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Originally Posted by Roogle

Was it confirmed that the Espers in Final Fantasy XII are the same as those in Final Fantasy Tactics?

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It may have been in the Ultimania scenario, but it doesn't really need to be. The ones in Tactics had different names: Queklain, Velius, Zalera, Adramelk, Hashalum, and Altima. They all bear striking resemblence and name similarity to XII's chuchulainn (sp?), Belias, Zalera (same), Adrammalech, Hashmal, and Ultima. I believe they were all updated to their new translation in FFT: War of the Lions.

I only used an esper to my benefit that one time. And that was only b/c the game made me.