Using her finger sign = Rinoa is smart!

#1
At the start of the game.
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/8159/startfx6.gif

#2
Flashback... it turned into Ulti in the next scene.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2199/middlesb2.gif

#3
The end of the game.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1922/endse6.gif

I'll ask you questions.

Consider why Rinoa took sudden-interest in Squall? Squall's attitude against Rinoa was rather terrible through out the whole story, he didn't care much but Rinoa is still interested. Why? I don't think it's because of his good looking because that's very hard to believe.
She automatically cares about him (even when they met for the first time) for what exactly reason? Think about it.

Look at #1, that's the start. At the dancing party, for the first time. Squall stared at Rinoa first, when Rinoa looked at him back, then she suddendly used her finger sign and smilied, then the story starts, what was the meaning of that?

What's your interception on her finger sign?

Is it some sort of control? Did she control him? During the end of the game, Squall has had so many flashbacks of her finger sign, wonder why?

My theory to all the questions above is that she used her finger sign as a ultimate move in order to controll Squall effectively. So she can use him to be her knight, or a love-mutation to have the potential of becoming Ulti in the future. OR! She used her finger sign to remind Squall who she really is because she KNOWS that they have met before (way past, because of Time Compression). Squall somehow got a deja-vu feeling and met her again, and there you go.

In the game, before Rinoa and Squall met, her (or Ulti) white feather dropped his sword from the sky, then later, they met again, she used her finger sign and so on. Makes sense to me.

OKay, the Finger sign doesn't have a significant meaning. Squall looked at her, she noticed, shook her finger and got him to dance.

Likely because she wanted to, and it looked like he had a momentary interest in her, so she decided to dance with him.

Why would that be his flashback? Because that was the first time they met. It's very common to use something like that for a flashback.

As for the last scene? Again another common use of repetition, recreating something that resembles their first meeting. This repetition of events is used to signify the importance of Squall and Rinoa meeting.

It's a story telling device, not a sign of anything.

Though you pointing this out does make me think they put a bit more effort into their story then I originally thought.

Even if it was still a bit of a mess.

That's understandable but there are a few problems with this. Okay, in Squall's mind, they have never met before, and Rinoa just used her finger sign instantly like a finger snap. I'm looking at this FMV right now, once she saw him for a second and then used her finger sign like the whole world has came to an end. Did she ever use finger sign with other people? Nope, only Squall.

During his flackbacks, when she used her finger sign repeatedly, a few second after that.. a splitting image of Ulti just came up. That's just ironic.

And in the end, you see the garden first, then Rinoa and then when she used the finger sign, Squall just came out of no where. I've been trying to find out whether Squall was there before Rinoa used her finger sign but it's hard to tell at the moment.

if youre looking for possible reasons that rinoa is controlling him.. not that i think its true.. but then you should look at the turning point in their relationship.. i think it was at the second battle with edea.. where he suddenly cared

It's how she waves

Squall sees a falling star, looks down and notices Rinoa saw it too. Rinoa sees him and points to the sky in understanding. Watch it here. The same thing happens in the end.

Pointing like that is a fairly well known affectionate sign - nothing more, nothing less. Sorry Serapy :(

So let me get this straight. Rinoa is Ultimecia? Wow, I never noticed before, but you're right.

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Originally Posted by Bartholomew

So let me get this straight. Rinoa is Ultimecia? Wow, I never noticed before, but you're right.

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This is actually, a very well known theory, which I myself don't believe in the slightest, but if you want to that's fine, as many theories I do belive aren't believed by everyone.

This is commenly the "R=U/S=G" theory, more often just the "R=U" theory, if you ever need to reffer to it by name.

I was being sarcastic, Plato.

I like the zell=ulti=big black guy theory better

i want to believe she is ultimacia cos it makes the love story twisted and actually pretty epic, i never thought of it when i played the game, but the theory gives the story a much needed twist

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Originally Posted by Bartholomew

I was being sarcastic, Plato.

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fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Rantzien

Squall sees a falling star, looks down and notices Rinoa saw it too. Rinoa sees him and points to the sky in understanding. Watch it here. The same thing happens in the end.

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I'm aware of the star thing but...

In the dancing party event, how did Rinoa knew that Squall saw the star in the first place? She didn't see Squall, she saw the star while Squall was staring her, then she saw him and pulled up her finger sign. How did Rinoa knew that Squall saw the star as well?

There's no proof that Rinoa saw Squall that he looked at the star at the same time.

There's something wrong with this thing.

Explain why in his flashbacks, when she used her finger sign repeatedly and then Ulti shows up as a splitting image?

Even if it was an affectionate sign, then that means Ulti is special to Squall as well.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I'm aware of the star thing but...

In the dancing party event, how did Rinoa knew that Squall saw the star in the first place? She didn't see Squall, she saw the star while Squall was staring her, then she saw him and pulled up her finger sign. How did Rinoa knew that Squall saw the star as well?

There's no proof that Rinoa saw Squall that he looked at the star at the same time.

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I'd imagine she sees Squall looking at the sky, and looks up herself to see what he's looking at. I don't know, I just find it more likely than the theory that it's a means of controlling him.

As for the flashbacks switching back and forth between Rinoa and Ultimecia, I don't know, it could be anything. That was when he first saw her, after all. Or Rinoa could be Ultimecia for all I know, I actually find that to be one of the less unbelievable theorys appearing around here.

In either case, I doubt the finger has anything to do with it.

I'm sure it has a special meaning, I just don't know what is it yet. True, it could mean anything but how come we have seen it so many time in the game?

I'm a believer in U=R, there may be no pure evidence to back this up but there are so many hints leading to the mystery. There are also hints leading Ellone = Ulti because she has some special powers.

It doesn't really appear to me that there's any mystery. Square's writers are not skilled enough to include such an implicit plot point; if Rinoa was Ultimecia, it would have been said explicitly. I think it's much more likely that the writers simply left large holes in the plot because they were writing the story for a game made primarily for the 10-14 age group.

There's no special meaning. She's just pointing.

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Originally Posted by Errm... MYSELF!!!

Pointing like that is a fairly well known affectionate sign - nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Bartholomew

It doesn't really appear to me that there's any mystery. Square's writers are not skilled enough to include such an implicit plot point; if Rinoa was Ultimecia, it would have been said explicitly. I think it's much more likely that the writers simply left large holes in the plot because they were writing the story for a game made primarily for the 10-14 age group.

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If it was to be shown, then this game would be less interesting. They intended on not giving too much information, apart from hints.
Did you actually think that FF8 characters saying things such as "zomg, Rinoa, are u really Ulti?" would prove the theory? No, those characters don't have full knowledge about Ulti, etc but there are hints that may lead to strange things without them directly saying about those things.

If the finger sign was just random, then how come we see it so many time?

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Pointing like that is a fairly well known affectionate sign - nothing more, nothing less.

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Please elaborate more. There are specific events that are "affectionate" in the game, we don't see them a lot, but we see the finger sign a lot. Get my point?

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Originally Posted by Serapy

If the finger sign was just random, then how come we see it so many time?

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It's an iconic, dispositional action. Mario pumps his fist in the air a lot, doesn't mean he's a black panther.

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Originally Posted by Bartholomew

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Originally Posted by Serapy

If the finger sign was just random, then how come we see it so many time?

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It's an iconic, dispositional action. Mario pumps his fist in the air a lot, doesn't mean he's a black panther.

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Mario is based on action, he uses his fists to kill things which is a very good reason to use it a lot.
Rinoa isn't based on action, no good reason to see the sign a lot in Squall's mind.

"Based on action"? All characters in any popular form of storytelling have both behaviors and attitudes. One who uses his body more than another person isn't necessarily "based on action," and especially doesn't mean that one who doesn't use her body a lot in contrast is "based in emotion" or whatever you'd argue. Invalid argument.

Rinoa isn't based on an action game, she's based on a RPG game. Mario is based on an action game. A big difference.

In a RPG game, it's unlikely to use your special movement without any good reason.

I just think of it as like a hello-flirting sign like winking;)

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Please elaborate more. There are specific events that are "affectionate" in the game, we don't see them a lot, but we see the finger sign a lot. Get my point?

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It's basically "I want you here beside me", in a loving manner.

The title made me think a dirty thought.

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Originally Posted by McLovin'

The title made me think a dirty thought.

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LOL!

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It's basically "I want you here beside me", in a loving manner.

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Assuming you and a stranger have never met before, next second, the stranger uses the "loving" sign to you? That seems illogical.

Perhaps Rinoa is just a filthy coquette, willing to resort to anything-- including fingering Squall-- to make her feel good about herself. She sees him and she's like, Oh, there's a tough guy with a cool scar and crazy hair. I think I'll adopt him, and she totally makes him her pet. She's all like, Oh, look how cute, he's clumsy and doesn't know how to dance. And she's all like, I'm gonna make him think I like him by pulling him onto the dance floor with me and make him stay, and then walk away when he thinks I really like him. Evil witch.

Of course, these are just my musings, and not what I really think the creators of the game meant for Rinoa's intentions to be. Really, I'm just jealous because I'm in love with Squall and can't have him because I'm not virtual :(

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Originally Posted by Rantzien

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I'm aware of the star thing but...

In the dancing party event, how did Rinoa knew that Squall saw the star in the first place? She didn't see Squall, she saw the star while Squall was staring her, then she saw him and pulled up her finger sign. How did Rinoa knew that Squall saw the star as well?

There's no proof that Rinoa saw Squall that he looked at the star at the same time.

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I'd imagine she sees Squall looking at the sky, and looks up herself to see what he's looking at. I don't know, I just find it more likely than the theory that it's a means of controlling him.

As for the flashbacks switching back and forth between Rinoa and Ultimecia, I don't know, it could be anything. That was when he first saw her, after all. Or Rinoa could be Ultimecia for all I know, I actually find that to be one of the less unbelievable theorys appearing around here.

In either case, I doubt the finger has anything to do with it.

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FFVIII is suppose to be the most love story-ish of games, and personally this thread is taking away from any love that could have ever existed.

In high school, instead of pointing one finger, I'd point my thumb, index finger, and middle finger as a greeting. People have quirks about them, I find this to be rinoa's.

Not to mention, I havn't played this in a while, but if Rinoa was ultimecia all along, why did she take -no- action to destroy the SeeD's that she intended to destroy? I was pretty sure Rinoa had no full knowledge of her sorceressness.

Not to mention, wasn't ulti inside of Edea during this time? I'm assuming she wouldn't just randomly bail from Edea and back into Rinoa when ever she felt like it.

Also, have you ever been to a dance and saw someone you just wanted to dance with, you look over at them and nod and they're over at your side. It's not illogical, it happens ALOT, at parties, clubs, even just high schol dances. You glance at someone, they glance at you, you make SOMEKIND of gesture to them they show a sign (in this case squall's head tilting) and then the chick runs over and grabs the guys hand. Very common in everyday life. I could see the dance scene happening at any dance or club or party happening at any given time.

NOT TO MENTION, if she could control Squall, I'm sure she would have made him a better dancer.

AND, Why would she want to control him at the end of the game. Personally, I think it was something like "remember when we met under a night just like this?" with the finger gesture. Something that symbolizes the beginning and growth of their relationship.

"Come Hither"
"Hey Look"
"One moment"

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NOT TO MENTION, if she could control Squall, I'm sure she would have made him a better dancer.

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I don't think that's the case, though. If Rinoa didn't use her finger sign, then Squall would just ignore her more and run away or something. Rinoa used her sign to make Squall think that something is going on.

And when she pulled Squall to dance with, Squall refused and tried to walk back (assuming he thinks he can't dance) but then all of sudden he has became a good dancer :p

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Also, have you ever been to a dance and saw someone you just wanted to dance with, you look over at them and nod and they're over at your side. It's not illogical

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She looks up at the sky without seeing Squall in the first place.
She then saw Squall for a second and pulled up her finger sign and then approached him. It just seems so quick.

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"Come Hither"
"Hey Look"
"One moment"
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OMG! Rinoa better not be the reincarnation of Hither :(

That was just a sign that meant "Do you like to dance ? ". And when Squall saw the sign he moved his head in a way that meant " That's not a bad idea . " And Rinoa walked to him and took him to dancing . I don't think that could mean anything else .

And about R=U theory :mad:, I really don't like it because all the evidence in the game are against it ; And I could find nothing that could mean it's true . If you found something let me know too .

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Originally Posted by Takero

That was just a sign that meant "Do you like to dance ? ". And when Squall saw the sign he moved his head in a way that meant " That's not a bad idea . " And Rinoa walked to him and took him to dancing . I don't think that could mean anything else .

And about R=U theory :mad:, I really don't like it because all the evidence in the game are against it ; And I could find nothing that could mean it's true . If you found something let me know too .

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Since you're like the 8th person to say this...

I'm pretty sure no matter how much we try to humanize Rinoa's action's Serapy will make it in benefit to support the R=U theory. So we might as well give up now.

But like I said earlier.

Ulti was in control of edea during the time of this dance, if that was ulti inside her then she's a body jumper and last time I checked Ulti only took over body's when she -had- too.

I think I'm going to restart FFVIII and play through sometime this week solely to prove this wrong. :D

lol.. They were both looking at the shooting star and they're eyes met so rinoa pointed at the sky in significance to the star.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Assuming you and a stranger have never met before, next second, the stranger uses the "loving" sign to you? That seems illogical.

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They're not complete strangers, and this may very well be a "first sight" thing (which really does happen).

This is nothing more then Square's attempt to be good writers, and use various attributes of good writing (put to an otherwise bad story ;p).

The continually use of that hand motion is easily explain, its "Hey, you!" (I've also read something about a falling star I'd need to go back to see that :o)

It was used again during the flashback is because thats when Squall and Rinoa met so, its an important scene to Squall, and having Rinoa be replaced by Ulti in that scene is showing how he's losing her. Using it again at the end is repetition of a common theme.

Now why did Rinoa instantly like Squall? I blame that on this game's awful forced love story. But for the last time R DOES NOT equal U.

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Now why did Rinoa instantly like Squall?

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I think the writers put her in that position, intentionally. They weren't that dumb :p
That's why something is going on, putting some doubts on the "o no, finger sign is just a greeting sign" procedure.

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They're not complete strangers, and this may very well be a "first sight" thing (which really does happen).

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In Squall's mind, they were, the dancing party is where they met for the first time.

There are other doubts, as well. Think about why you see the splitting image of Ulti AFTER you see the finger sign.

I'm tired of people saying O NO THEY WANT TO DANCE, THAT KIND OF SIGN. I already know that, I know it happens in parties a lot, BUT there are so many doubts/clues that may tell something else.. that the sign wasn't exactly a greeting sign/nor star

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Assuming you and a stranger have never met before, next second, the stranger uses the "loving" sign to you? That seems illogical.

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Personally, I always believed that Rinoa was only pointing up at the sky/comet because she and Squall had both seen it, but assuming your TC/R=U theory is correct and Rinoa was trying to make Squall her knight, it wouldn't be illogical because Rinoa would already be in love with Squall and she would know that Squall would be where he was. And Squalls head tilt would be a confused head tilt as he would have no recollection of any prior meetings. And it would also explain why Rinoa knows the dance off by heart and she's not even a SeeD!!!

Hope that makes sense!:D

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Originally Posted by Cloud88

but assuming your TC/R=U theory is correct and Rinoa was trying to make Squall her knight, it wouldn't be illogical because Rinoa would already be in love with Squall and she would know that Squall would be where he was. And Squalls head tilt would be a confused head tilt as he would have no recollection of any prior meetings. And it would also explain why Rinoa knows the dance off by heart and she's not even a SeeD!!!

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Exactly! I was just saying that it would be illogical if Rinoa wanted to meet Squall and she started loving him in the stranger-to-stranger situation (pulling up her finger sign to a stranger, meeting him, loving him, etc) FOR no reason. It's hard to explain, other example: If Rinoa never sensed any future plans ahead of herself and Squall, or if she was a normal human for the whole story, then the relationship between herself and Squall would never have happened or at least some of it.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Cloud88

but assuming your TC/R=U theory is correct and Rinoa was trying to make Squall her knight, it wouldn't be illogical because Rinoa would already be in love with Squall and she would know that Squall would be where he was. And Squalls head tilt would be a confused head tilt as he would have no recollection of any prior meetings. And it would also explain why Rinoa knows the dance off by heart and she's not even a SeeD!!!

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Exactly! I was just saying that it would be illogical if Rinoa wanted to meet Squall and she started loving him in the stranger-to-stranger situation (pulling up her finger sign to a stranger, meeting him, loving him, etc) FOR no reason. It's hard to explain, other example: If Rinoa never sensed any future plans ahead of herself and Squall, or if she was a normal human for the whole story, then the relationship between herself and Squall would never have happened or at least some of it.

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1. You can't say that the relationship couldn't have happened between herself and squall because.... IT'S A VIDEO GAME BASED ON THE LOVE BETWEEN THEM.

2. I was pretty sure she didn't know of her sorcessesness at this time, and again, Ulti was inside of Edea during this time. And as much as people keep saying, you see a guy you like at a dance, they look at you, you do something to hook their attention, you go grab them and dance. I don't see how you can disregard the fact her finger-sign was something that could say "hey I like you" maybe not "I like you forever" maybe just "Hey let's talk for a second, you look sweet".

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Cloud88

but assuming your TC/R=U theory is correct and Rinoa was trying to make Squall her knight, it wouldn't be illogical because Rinoa would already be in love with Squall and she would know that Squall would be where he was. And Squalls head tilt would be a confused head tilt as he would have no recollection of any prior meetings. And it would also explain why Rinoa knows the dance off by heart and she's not even a SeeD!!!

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Exactly! I was just saying that it would be illogical if Rinoa wanted to meet Squall and she started loving him in the stranger-to-stranger situation (pulling up her finger sign to a stranger, meeting him, loving him, etc) FOR no reason. It's hard to explain, other example: If Rinoa never sensed any future plans ahead of herself and Squall, or if she was a normal human for the whole story, then the relationship between herself and Squall would never have happened or at least some of it.

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1. You can't say that the relationship couldn't have happened between herself and squall because.... IT'S A VIDEO GAME BASED ON THE LOVE BETWEEN THEM.

2. I was pretty sure she didn't know of her sorcessesness at this time, and again, Ulti was inside of Edea during this time. And as much as people keep saying, you see a guy you like at a dance, they look at you, you do something to hook their attention, you go grab them and dance. I don't see how you can disregard the fact her finger-sign was something that could say "hey I like you" maybe not "I like you forever" maybe just "Hey let's talk for a second, you look sweet".

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1. Obviously there wouldn't be a video game without Squall and Rinoa loving each other. This is pure speculation. If Rinoa knew that she was Ulti, she would try and make Squall her knight. After all, he did beat 2 sorceresses, Seifer (4 times), Griever, and Ulti hreself. You can't get much better than that.

2.True, but, again assuming the TC theory is true, Past, Present and Future all become one, and because she posseses each sorceress at one point, she could technically be in three people at once. Whos to say that when you're playing the game the story hasn't already taken place and that you're playing in the past but with an Ulti-aware Rinoa? This could also explain why Rinoa fell out of love with Seifer and in love with Squall. She knew Squall would be a better knight.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

You can't say that the relationship couldn't have happened between herself and squall because.... IT'S A VIDEO GAME BASED ON THE LOVE BETWEEN THEM.

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Do you realize that I was contradicting? The reason why I was contradicting is because I was agruing with other persons' views based on my theory, stating that it would be illogical if they have met for no reason. If it was no reason (Squall and Rinoa not loving each other), then this video game would have done something differently or the game being non-existence.

There's no pure evidence that Rinoa saw Squall before she saw the star.

Ha! If what you said is true (FF8 is based on a love story) then why the hell does Ulti exist? ;)

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2. I was pretty sure she didn't know of her sorcessesness at this time, and again, Ulti was inside of Edea during this time.

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She didn` t know because she's just using her instincts. If you were her, it's impossible to know whether you are doing normal or not under the circumstances.
It doesn't matter if Utli has possessed Edea at the time, because FF8 is a compressed world. Specific events get mixed up from time to time. Associated with different timelines, past/present/future into one.

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And as much as people keep saying, you see a guy you like at a dance, they look at you, you do something to hook their attention, you go grab them and dance. I don't see how you can disregard the fact her finger-sign was something that could say "hey I like you" maybe not "I like you forever" maybe just "Hey let's talk for a second, you look sweet".

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The problem is that I've posted information that may disregard the information as what you have said. Consider why there's an existence of a splitting image of Ulti after Rinoa's finger sign in Squall's flashbacks.

The party situtation (greeting signs) from a video game is not always common, it's not exactly the same as in real life one because FF8 is a video game.

Serapy, I like how you post something, but never answer any question towards it that isn't easily explained. Before I pointed out a thing called Symbolism. I think the reason that he had the flashback with Rinoa turning into Ultimecia because of the feeling he had in the past when he felt as if he was losing her. Its pretty easy to draw out.

Next. It does mater if Ulti has possessed Edea at the time. Because your "FFVIII is a time compressed world straight from the beginning." Is a theory. If you know anything about science you'd know that the most illogical, and unlikely theories, are ones based off other ones.

Next. You also appear to disregard any knowledge of Writing. FFVIII was a love story between Rinoa and Squall, because the main theme was love. Ultimecia is there to spice up the story, and give it something that will actually make it interactive.

I like how you bring up "pure" evidence. There is no pure evidence that R=U, there is no "pure" evidence on any of your facts. I'm sorry but if you want to argue about pure evidence, you better have some of your own.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Serapy, I like how you post something, but never answer any question towards it that isn't easily explained. Before I pointed out a thing called Symbolism. I think the reason that he had the flashback with Rinoa turning into Ultimecia because of the feeling he had in the past when he felt as if he was losing her. Its pretty easy to draw out.

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Oh, yes, sorry. I didn't see your explanation about symbolism. Ok, here goes:
Laguna told Squall to think of friendship and love just in case if something happens. If he didn't think of his friends, he'd die or completely lost in time forever. However, he did what Laguna told him to do, he has thought of Selphie, Zell, Irvine, Rinoa, etc. during his flashblacks as a "symbolism" of friendship and love. Does that make sense? So why was Ulti involved since she's not Squall's friend (in his mind) at that moment? Ulti is not his friend, so that doesn't match the description of friendship nor love. That suggests that U=R may be plausible.

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Next. It does mater if Ulti has possessed Edea at the time. Because your "FFVIII is a time compressed world straight from the beginning." Is a theory. If you know anything about science you'd know that the most illogical, and unlikely theories, are ones based off other ones.

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It doesn't matter because she can re-possesses Edea or possesses someone else at the same time because like what I said, FF8 was a compressed world with different timelines. Time travel is very confusing, I know.

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Next. You also appear to disregard any knowledge of Writing. FFVIII was a love story between Rinoa and Squall, because the main theme was love.

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Did you see my other post? I've made some contradictions. However, FF8 wasn't all about love, there's much more than that.

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Ultimecia is there to spice up the story, and give it something that will actually make it interactive.

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That statement makes it sound like Rinoa is actually Ultimecia ;) If you disagree, then why was Ulti so interested in them anyway?

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I like how you bring up "pure" evidence. There is no pure evidence that R=U, there is no "pure" evidence on any of your facts. I'm sorry but if you want to argue about pure evidence, you better have some of your own.

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What?
Why don't you watch the dancing party FMV, you will become aware that there's no scene of Rinoa seeing Squall BEFORE she saw the star or Squall. That's why it seems strange, let me explain exactly what the video was demonstrating:

1) The video starts.
*The screen of the video starts focused on the sky*
2) The display of the star shows up
*The screen of the video starts focused on the Squall face*
2) Squall saw the star
*The screen of the video starts focused on the Rinoa figure*
3) Rinoa saw the star
4) Rinoa IMMEDIATELY turns around, saw Squall and pulled up her finger sign

See? There wasn't a scene of Rinoa seeing Squall BEFORE she saw the star(3) or Squall(4). That's why I was disproving some persons' views in this thread.

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Rinoa instantly loves Squall, she instantly cares about him EVEN against Squall's bad attitude.

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A splitting image of Ulti in Squall's flashbacks, it was supposed for friends, not Ulti.

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Match!

In regard to general theories, Goldenboko. All what I can say is that why don't you disprove R=U and my theories? I'd love to see information that could disprove em ;)
Are you aware that the events we have seen from FF8 are not completed? The game has implied/hinted so many things that we actually have never seen before, so how the hell can I obtain such evidences? This game is mostly all about speculations, that was what the FF8 designers wanted.

Um, you don't disprove a theory with no evidence Serepy.

You present a theory, you present that theories evidence. It's how it works. You're the one who needs to present facts first, not the other way around.


All arguments for this you have posted require everything else to be true, however none of these things have any kind of evidence supporting them.

Also, perhaps Rinoa is just a flirt? She see's a guy, becomes infatuated, and dances with him. She's also kinda dumb, and quickly falls in love.

Next, why is Squalls mind cutting to Ulti?

What are the two most important things going on right now? Ulti and Rinoa. So yes, both of them are likely the most prevelent things in his mind right now. He is told to think of friends and love, but Ulti is still appearing in his mind. Why is that?

Simple, he obviously has to try to focus on friends and love, but with something going on as it is, something like that would be hard. It's more likely the constant flashes between Ulti and Rinoa is Squall trying hard to shift his focus onto Rinoa, and that is the writers way of showing it.


Also, I pointed out the Symbolysm thing on Page 1. PAGE 1! I feel like I'm being ignored.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Also, I pointed out the Symbolysm thing on Page 1. PAGE 1! I feel like I'm being ignored.

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Don't worry dude, like Boko said, anything that isn't easy to explain gets looked over.

Either way, starting FFVIII on a PS emulator solely to get screens to either prove or disprove this.
You need hard provable evidence to make a theory a fact, all we have is speculation and differing opinions.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Also, I pointed out the Symbolysm thing on Page 1. PAGE 1! I feel like I'm being ignored.

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Don't worry dude, like Boko said, anything that isn't easy to explain gets looked over.

Either way, starting FFVIII on a PS emulator solely to get screens to either prove or disprove this.
You need hard provable evidence to make a theory a fact, all we have is speculation and differing opinions.

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What does being easy to explain have to do with anything?

I was just saying I was the first to point out the symbolism of the finger.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Also, I pointed out the Symbolysm thing on Page 1. PAGE 1! I feel like I'm being ignored.

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Don't worry dude, like Boko said, anything that isn't easy to explain gets looked over.

Either way, starting FFVIII on a PS emulator solely to get screens to either prove or disprove this.
You need hard provable evidence to make a theory a fact, all we have is speculation and differing opinions.

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What does being easy to explain have to do with anything?

I was just saying I was the first to point out the symbolism of the finger.

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Because anything having to do with human actions in a video game or symbolism has been disregarded in many questions. I said that there was symbolism in her doing the finger-sign at the end, that's how they met and it's memorable, so ending the game with it gives the game a finality and a sense that, that's how their relationship began and even after everything they went through, it's still growing. She did the finger sign then he went and kissed her, I highly doubt she used her sorcess powers to control him to make him kiss her.
And, I was just saying, that -alot- of this thread is being ignored, because there's nothing to say to the symbolism thing, because you can't argue it, it's correct.

@Neo: Ah, I see you did :P But you didn't say it as blunt, and rudely as I did ;)

I'm not sure how to even react to most of your post seeing as it didn't even touch most of what I was talking about. I never said that it was about the Shooting Star.

Now, lets start with why he saw Ultimecia in that flashback. When you think of enduring friendship, normally a bad instance comes into mind. Why? Because friendships are actually tested at bad times. I know I can easily relate to that notion. Squall had to think back, and when he remembered Rinoa, he remembered how he almost lost Rinoa to Ultimecia (thus Rinoa turning into Ulti in the flashback), but their friendship endured. That scene was Symbolism at its simplest.

Continuing. You asked my why Ultimecia was interested in the party. I'm going to quote The Crystal now. "Ultimecia wanted to stop the legendary SeeD from killing her, thus she decided time compression was the only way." (Or something to that degree). Thus Ultimecia was interested in killing ANY SeeD. If your a SeeD there's a chance your the legendary SeeD, therefore you must die. Thats not a theory, thats simple logic. Now, consider how many times the Party attacked Edea, and foiled Ulti. Unless Ultimecia was a total retard, it should've been obvious the party was the Legendary SeeD, and should instantly have her attention.

Finally, this game is full of crappy plot and poor writing. There I said it. Why was Rinoa so interested in Squall? Because Square needed the love story to work, and they wanted to shove it in your face early. And apparently it worked as you can see there are so many "OMG SQUALLxRINOA FOREVER THEY ARE TEH CUTEST EVERZ!" fans out there. Square didn't want to imply R=U, they wanted to pump out a love story.

Now, you ask me to answer to my "theories". First off, this is your theory thread, you should be providing facts. Which again, you have still yet to show anything that isn't mindless misinterpretation.
But do you really want me to kill this with facts you can't disprove? Fine. I will.

A. Time is NOT Compressed right in the beginning of the game. If time was compressed, then Ultimecia's whole goal doesn't make sense "I need to time compress, an already Time Compressed world!" Think about that for a second.

B. There is NO proof, evidence, or any type of fact at all, saying that sorceress's can have lifespans that stretch across time. Its stated that Ultimecia lives in the distant future. If R did = U, then how did Rinoa live that long? A question you can't answer.

C. This game DOES have a timeline. Face it, time isn't compressed, you can't prove that, and if you need to fight that battle right now then you can't back this theory at all. With that said that means if R=U then Rinoa is Ultimecia's past self which leaves many questions unanswerable.

i. Ultimecia almost killed Rinoa in space. If R=U Ultimecia would never risk that, knowing she could have killed herself.

ii. Why doesn't Ultimecia recognize you? In the last scene you come face to face with her, it doesn't make sense for her to not acknowledge she knows who you are (surprise is a powerful ally).

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All what I can say is that why don't you disprove R=U and my theories? I'd love to see information that could disprove em

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Much of your "proof" seems to be misinterpretations or illogical assumptions. You also say that your theories must be true, because they can't be disproved. The fact is, you can't say if something is true if your only reason for saying that is that "it can't be disproved." Using your logic, one could say that a child's imaginary friend exists because "it can't be disproved."

Seriously, if you want to argue about something, you need real proof.

And I'm pretty sure Square themselves also say that R=U is false. There's an obvious fact that can disprove your theories.

Goldenboko, I'm pretending to be youself:

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A. Time is NOT Compressed right in the beginning of the game. If time was compressed, then Ultimecia's whole goal doesn't make sense "I need to time compress, an already Time Compressed world!" Think about that for a second.

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That comment is not a fact, show me what actually said/displayed that from the game

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B. There is NO proof, evidence, or any type of fact at all, saying that sorceress's can have lifespans that stretch across time. Its stated that Ultimecia lives in the distant future. If R did = U, then how did Rinoa live that long? A question you can't answer.

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That comment is not a fact, show me what actually said/displayed that from the game.

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C. This game DOES have a timeline. Face it, time isn't compressed, you can't prove that, and if you need to fight that battle right now then you can't back this theory at all. With that said that means if R=U then Rinoa is Ultimecia's past self which leaves many questions unanswerable.

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That comment is not a fact, show me what actually said/displayed that from the game.

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i. Ultimecia almost killed Rinoa in space. If R=U Ultimecia would never risk that, knowing she could have killed herself.

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That comment is not a fact, show me what actually said/displayed that from the game.

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ii. Why doesn't Ultimecia recognize you? In the last scene you come face to face with her, it doesn't make sense for her to not acknowledge she knows who you are (surprise is a powerful ally).

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That comment is not a fact, show me what actually said/displayed that from the game.

See? You have been acting like that or at least to a degree. I've provided facts, why don't you check out the game and disprove/verify them? Otherwise, it's pointless to ask for facts again and again.
I asked you to watch the TC video because the facts are in it, but you simply ignored that and kept agruing with me. *Sigh*

You never linked me to this "video" you told me of it, but never linked me to the exact link, or told me where it is. I find it more organized to actually post what you have to say anyway.

Now, I'm not even going to dignify what you said with a response now. You are an idiot, I'm going to explain this to your peasized brain so hopefully the next poor soul who tries to question you might get an actual response.

The process of debating a theory.

Person A makes a theory from facts-> Person B questions facts, shows holes in the reasoning and ideas from the theory, showing other, more plausible alternatives-> Person A tries to see if their theory can account for holes, and answer the questions and sees if there are holes in Person B's alternative-> Person B repeats what Person A did. And it repeats until a conclusion has been drawn.

I did my half, and you, being an idiot, have yet to give me your half, of giving me manageable facts from the game, answering my alternatives showing holes, or even ever going back to in game stated material.


Let me sum this up, because, like before, you will probably skip my entire post, because reading is far too difficult for you.

You don't have any logistic skills, debating with you is like debating with a deranged monkey, have fun in your happy made up fantasy world.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

have fun in your happy made up fantasy world.

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Sarcasm aside, isn't this exactly what we all do whenever we're playing a FF game?

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Originally Posted by Big D

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

have fun in your happy made up fantasy world.

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Sarcasm aside, isn't this exactly what we all do whenever we're playing a FF game?

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Hell, it's what I do for my day to day life. :P

Interesting idea.

This thread is pretty unsalvageable! Let's close with some facts.

• Rinoa is just pointing at a shooting star.
• No one is Ultimecia but Ultimecia.
• However mundane the topic, it would be in you kids' best interests to debate with more civility in the future. Goldenboko in particular should consider himself Warned for his inflammatory inflammatories.

Excellent. Well done. Thank you.