Revolution...

So I've been watching the new FFXIII trailers, reading up on TA and CC and playing through the older FFs alot lately.

I've been thinking about the future of the series while I read different commentaries about how SE has lost its touch and the series may finally be falling into a downhill spiral due to the alarming number of remakes quick cash sequels and spin-offs that SE is producing. Granted SE has been accused of milking the franchise for years but lately it seems more open about it. I'm starting to feel SE may need to do a remake of VII just to remove the tarnish the Compilation has done to its good name. Though I don't completely agree with such statements I do feel SE has been going a little too far with some things...

But besides that, I feel with PS2 era that the fan community has been more fractured and splintered than before and we all seek different direction from the series. So where do you want the series to head and what avenues of interactive media and storytelling do you wish to explore?

Basically play director and creator but understand you must choose things you wish build upon. So its not like "what I want FFXIV to be" but more like "what I want FFXIV-XVI to be like". I'm curious to know what fans want and expect from the series in the future. I only ask that you be specific or at least have well thought out answers. A comment like "I like where its going now" won't cut it cause I would ask you to define where you feel its headed. Like an annoying english teacher I'm expecting an essay style answer not an irrelevant shout out...:mad:

I agree with the people who say SE has lost it's touch and FF is finally going down hill.

Personally, I don't believe that SE made any of the spin-off's for the fans, I believe that all of the spin-off's were made in a dire attempt to make more money and little milk the franchise for all it's worth, saddly due to milking the franchise, it's causing problems in the eyes of the fans down the road.

I believe when they make 3 final fantasy XIII's at a time, that SE's lost it's touch with itself and reality completely. Just 6 years ago, SE would spend -years- on ONE game, putting in all the heart they could into one game. Well now, the years and heart isn't put into one game, but three games all while at the same time creating spin offs for other games.

I personally feel that final fantasy's lost it's heart, the thing that made the games loveable and catchy. And I don't see SE even caring that the heart of the game is missing, seeing as after spin-off, mobile phone games, and movies they still continue to do the same thing.

SE is showing what evil companies really are, money grubbing people who will do anything to gain money and that includes driving a once prosperous franchise into a hole.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I agree with the people who say SE has lost it's touch and FF is finally going down hill.

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If anything, Final Fantasy has just began to climax into something huge. When you look at it, it's gaining more popularity over the whole world with bigger production values and fans.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Personally, I don't believe that SE made any of the spin-off's for the fans, I believe that all of the spin-off's were made in a dire attempt to make more money and little milk the franchise for all it's worth, saddly due to milking the franchise, it's causing problems in the eyes of the fans down the road.

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While SE acts like any typical business would, through interviews and behind the scenes it is very evident that the people working on the games and movies are very passionate about what they do. It has only shown in a couple of games that they slapped it together just to get the sales going (Only one I can think of at the moment is Dirge of Cerberus).

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I believe when they make 3 final fantasy XIII's at a time, that SE's lost it's touch with itself and reality completely. Just 6 years ago, SE would spend -years- on ONE game, putting in all the heart they could into one game. Well now, the years and heart isn't put into one game, but three games all while at the same time creating spin-off's for other games.

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That's because six years ago, technology was different and Squaresoft was a much smaller company. With the availability of better and bigger facilities, as well as an increase in technology and employees, Square-Enix are able to allocate a number of teams for different projects. You do realise it's not just one team working on all of the Final Fantasy XIII games, right?

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I personally feel that final fantasy's lost it's heart, the thing that made the games loveable and catchy. And I don't see SE even caring that the heart of the game is missing, seeing as after spin-off, mobile phone games, and movies they still continue to do the same thing.

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I don't think you have any ground base for that kind of argument. Last I checked, Final Fantasy still follows the same formula as the older ones. Sure there are members who have left and some newer faces giving a different style to the franchise, but I don't see it losing it's heart at all.

As for the movies, they were quality. With Advent Children, it is very high quality CGI work there, and anyone who says differently obviously don't know what's involved and have never looked into the industry. It was an extremely fresh and new way for Square-Enix to express another way to tell a story, and a very good experience for Visual Works (the people who work on the in-game pre-rendered cut scenes for Square-Enix games).

They are experimenting in different mediums, and I don't see why people have a big problem with this. They still have plenty available in the standard medium.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

SE is showing what evil companies really are, money grubbing people who will do anything to gain money and that includes driving a once prosperous franchise into a hole.

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We knew companies were evil money grubbing people way before Square-Enix. It's typical for every business of every industry. But it's not hindering Final Fantasy, it is allowing Final Fantasy to be expanded into the whole world and newer mediums that are changing our whole lives. If anything, the Final Fantasy franchise has only but expanded and gained greater interest by fans.

Honestly, I don't really have a problem with what SE is doing now. Final Fantasy XII is one of the best games in the series (and possibly the best RPGs on the PS2) and if they can continue making games of that quality every so often, I can generally forgive them for also turning out crap like Dawn of Mana and Dirge of Cerberus. Ultimately, every developer has been stumbling somewhat lately, some a lot more then others. All in all, I would still say that SE is still one of the top JRPG developers in the industry at the moment. How long that stays true will depend on how good FFXIII, Last Remnant, Dragon Quest IX and White Knight Chronicles are.

So I wouldn't change anything significant, I guess. Or at least, nothing that wouldn't be pandering to my own personal tastes.

Square Enix is a much larger company than Squaresoft was and has significantly more resources (such as complete development teams) at its disposal. The overlap on the teams of FFXIII and FFXIII Versus, as Omecle pointed out, is minimal. SE still puts a great deal of effort into each original Final Fantasy title (I mean, they've been putting a lot of effort into FFXIII and Versus for a good long time now), and I think the argument that they're putting less effort into each game is skewed by the fact that the company can now afford to focus on multiple titles at once. It's not economical for SE to employ excess people on a single project, so why not put those other people to making another game of their own?

That said, I think for the most part many of the spin-off games have been fairly bogus. Quite honestly, Crisis Core appears like it's the only good spin-off that SE has ever produced. The spin-offs and sequels aside, I think remaking the series is a good idea, although I don't think it's particularly necessary to have re-releases of FFI and II on three different platforms. The DS remakes are, in my opinion, particularly worthwhile projects, as they'll bring the games to newer generations, which can rarely be a bad thing. As it doesn't look like they've bastardized either FFIII or FFIV in the remakes, I don't think there's reason to complain in regards to such projects.

I'm going to throw out a particularly novel idea here: don't play the spin-offs and sequels if you don't like them. If you want each Final Fantasy to be a stand alone adventure, just play them as they come and ignore the franchise that spawns afterwards. I have no problem doing this.

Quite honestly, what I want in a Final Fantasy game, I don't expect ever to see again. I think we're almost due for another throwback title, like FFIX, but I don't really think that will ever be the case. I see FFIX more as a farewell than a revisiting. I've liked each Final Fantasy title, some more than others, and I don't really think they're losing anything as a whole. Each Final Fantasy has improved upon the last and changed in various ways. They have unifying elements, but the series has shown a huge progression with each game. FFVI is just as different from FFI as FFXII is from FFVI. People seem to ignore this for the sake of elitism and a ridiculous obsession with the "old school" games.

I think they're gonna end the series with a BANG!

I might be thinking that SE has lost its touch, too, if I were to completely ignore the list of titles they've produced over the last few years.

I'm definately in the same league as Omecle and Ouch! on this one. Revenant Wings was surprisingly innovative and entertaining and Crisis Core has received great reviews, with story sequences that reinforce the original title. Dragon Quest VIII and Final Fantasy XII are undoubtedly my top 2 favorite games over the last few years, and I've spent more time on each of them than any other RPG. XII goes as far as to get better and better the more I play it. I enjoyed the hell out of FFIII DS, and everyone in the forum is saying IV is even better. FFVI and Tactics received updated translations that have been praised across the boards. FFTA2 and the DQ-DS remakes promise that I'll be spending alot of time on my DS in the future. The revealed music, plot, and gameplay of The Last Remnant does the same for my PS3.

Only a disgruntled elitist on an internet forum could possibly think SE is losing its touch.

Square is still going strong. Screw FF XIII, I'm far more excited for all the changes that are in FF IV DS, and now likley V and VI DS. (Really I just hope for these if IV turns out good.)

Also, Last Remnants anyone? Now that game looks like pure win.

Finally, don't get me wrong. I'm looking forward to FF XIII and all, but those others are higher on the priority list.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

But besides that, I feel with PS2 era that the fan community has been more fractured and splintered than before and we all seek different direction from the series.

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I think it's relevant that the PS2 era largely coincided with the height of internet forum usage and other online interaction between fans. Since most people use the internet (and especially forums) just to complain about things and abuse other fans, it makes sense that the fandom would feel more fragmented and discontent. It doesn't necessarily mean that things at S-E are really going downhill; it's just that we've got the means to make more of a fuss over every little thing that's not exactly to our liking.

I do not think that SE is going downhill. X and XII are - in my opinion - the best FF-games so far. Maybe they are going slightly over the top with the VII-compilation, but I see nothing wrong in creating quality games, novels or movies that are prequels, sequels or something similar to an already existing FF.

My personal favourite is X, and I would love a novel, another game (in addition to X-2) and/or a movie that shows us more of the history and the characters of Spira. So I see nothing wrong with that, as long as it is done with the same quality as the main FF-games.

I guess I'll add my :twocents:

For the most part I don't think SE is doing bad, granted its heading towards a few directions I don't care for but part of innovation is accepting change and new ways of thinking. XII has restored my faith in the series as well as the III DS and IV DS which I'm looking forward to as well as A2. If their is a blemish on the series I would have said its the constant ports but many of them have been handled beautifully. Hell, I'm even starting to warm up to the XIII project even though I refuse to jump into the hype bandwagon for it.

Though I do feel if SE has made a few wrong moves, its in the Compilation of VII. Having Before Crisis placed on a cell phone market thats only strong in Japan and the constant change to the games canon has probably been the real reason why part of the FF community as well as the critique community feel SE may have sold out. Not to mention SE's heavy reliance on the DQ/FF brand names. Part of this is as been stated because SE is a larger company and can now have multiple projects to utilize the brand names better. Of course my other feeling for SE's negative attention in the media is probably due to its success. Ever since Square started making a name for themselves, a backlash has been felt where people want to see the company fail. I seriously feel people made a bigger deal out of Spirits Within than it should have...

If I want SE to change in the future it would be three things:

1. Lack of original IPs. Granted this falls into an entirely different debate about the industry as a whole and its understandable. Its a mionor complaint at best, besides I do like the fact that SE is experimenting more with different genres. Though Dirge of Cerberus was ill recieved, at least SE had the guts to try something new. Chain of Memories, Sword of Mana, and Revenant Wings are also good signs that at least from a gameplay standpoint; SE is open to new things and constantly trying to push boundaries.

For the most part I'm happy they continue to innovate but I do wish they could do it without feeling the need to put DQ or FF in the title. I seriously feel Versus and Agito would get a much better reception critiquely if they didn't have the FF moniker on them.

2. Less emulation more immersion. Once again something I feel the whole industry needs and luckily it does appear the SE is walking this route though I'm a little disappointed that they seem to be late to the party. Basically this concerns the gaming communities emulation of the movie industry which I feel needs to finally end. This is mostly due to the fact that I feel games have a better framework for creating wonderful storytelling and experiences than movies and its due to the genres interactivity with the story.

Basically we need to have less 80% story cutscenes and 20% game and more of a fusion of the two where neither is apparent. KH2, MGS3, and RE4 all all wonderful examples with the storytelling and gameplay perfectly fused together. Its one of the reason why I have high hopes for XIII battle system as it may lay the groundwork for the eradication of FMV cutscenes. Bsically I feel the game industry should find its own path and stop with this silly notion that movies are better...

3: A better balance between making a game challenging and accessible. Once again something the cast majority of the industry is guilty of (except you Capcom :love: *hugs*). Like my previous point though, I feel SE is more guilty of this than other companies. Basically we need the main game to become more challenging. I know its difficult to do when you have to put accessibility into account but I feel its getting a little out of hand. I just wish they would take a lesson from Star Ocean 2 where unlocking the uber difficult dungeon with the insanely powerful bosses made the final boss one of the most powerful SOB in the game. Something along those lines would make me happy but alas I don't see this one coming true I'm afraid...

Overall these are changes I would like to see and though SE is partially responsible for leading the industry down a few paths, I also see they are taking certain measures to make changes for the better. Part of my own personal issues with last generation of SE offerings stems probably from the turmoil of Sakeguchi and other high profile members leaving. As well as the merger and the general lack of a direction for the company. All this ending with the only person I feel who could lead SE in a wonderful direction leaving the company as well. Though I don't care for the idea of sequels for the main FF branch it did at least lead to SE listening to its fans more and brought us some really well polished ports and remakes. I can't say I'm thrilled with the direction XIII is taking (why three games again?) but I'm slowly starting to accept it.

Overall, I'm optimistic for the future cause I feel the gaming community has matured and changed in a way that won't allow the industry to redo the same old crap; and that the current generation of systems can allow the industry to experiment more and find their own path to explore as well as a new form of creative expression.

The similarities among the FFXIII titles are limited to a common mythology that connects the stories in a general manner. FFXIII and FFXIII Versus will be standalone titles. I think people are just assuming that because they're both called FFXIII that they're going to be as closely linked as FFVII and FFVII: DoC or FFX and FFX-2. What's so hard about viewing them as separate entities like FFX and FFXII? Looks like they're just about as similar as those two (i.e. not very).

Agito doesn't exist. I choose to ignore any cell phone titles.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

The similarities among the FFXIII titles are limited to a common mythology that connects the stories in a general manner. FFXIII and FFXIII Versus will be standalone titles. I think people are just assuming that because they're both called FFXIII that they're going to be as closely linked as FFVII and FFVII: DoC or FFX and FFX-2. What's so hard about viewing them as separate entities like FFX and FFXII? Looks like they're just about as similar as those two (i.e. not very).

Agito doesn't exist. I choose to ignore any cell phone titles.

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Its not so much the fact I feel the three games are connected, of anything, since they are all so very different I'm dumbfounded as to why they would all share the XIII moniker. Like a few people said before on other threads, why not just call them FFXIII, XIV, and XV or make Versus and Agito stand alone titles seperate from the FF series? Granted I feel it will become quite apparent when all the titles are finally released...

It's because they share the common mythology involving the crystals, hence the name of the project: Fabula Nova Crystallis. They're also all coming out at relatively the same time. Given that the games are only called "Final Fantasy" so that they sell better, I don't really see how the number assigned to them is in any way relevant.

Really, what's the different between naming it FFXIII Versus or FFXIV? Both titles are just there for brand identity and making money. I don't see why the latter would be inherently better or more acceptable to people who have the opinion that companies using brand recognition to make money is evil.

Really, every company makes video games to make money. Anyone who thinks they make their games for the benefit of the fans is deluding himself. Any company that is more in touch with their fan base is merely that way because they view that approach as a good business decision.

Well of course they do it to make money, but why can't it be for both?

I mean I for one one to write game stories not only to make money, but so that people can enjoy my works. To say they only do it for money is kinda silly.

I'm sort of in two minds about the direction in which SE is going. To me, FF13 and Versus sound like they're going to be quite good (Agito not so much), and the recent remakes of the older titles in the series are good because it makes them more accessible to the general public, which is a good business move for SE IMO.

I have no objection to SE working on three titles at once. Squaresoft began production on FFVIII and IX at the same time, and they both turned out to be great games. Nowadays Square Enix is much larger and has more resources so producing three games should work out just fine.

What I don't like are all these "extra" games and unnecessary sequels/prequels, namely, the Compilation of FF7. I shouldn't really judge before I play some of the games, though, but for now I just pretend they don't exist. I mean, no-ones forcing me to play them.

Also, I didn't really appreciate how they got rid of the world map system in X, and I don't like FFXII's battle system all that much, but I'm glad SE's pushing the boundaries and experimenting with new things, and IMO those two games were still awesome despite not being the "typical" FF.

So I guess all-in-all I'm quite happy with the way SE is taking FF. (Say "No!" to the FF7 Compilation!!)

I think the main series is having it's problems however:

Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles seems to be getting better the more I hear about the new games

Final Fantasy Tactics is still an amazing game

The remakes of the early classics are wonderful and let me relive my favorite games with something extra.

As for the main series... I'm not too sure. I think they should focus on more newer titles, instead of doing multiple games under the same title. And I honestly think they should work on establishing a NEW franchise, with Square and Enix combined. Right now it's still Square is FF, and Enix is DQ... if they made one that was Square Enix, it'd just be pure win.

THE JACKEL

Ive not really liked anything Squares done since Enix got heavily envolved, X was a dissapointment, X-2 should be illegal, and XII was just as dissapointing, So I've pretty much given up on the series all together as with the Resident Evil series, but XIII does seem to be okay from the more recent released infomation.

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Originally Posted by Wuggly Blight

Ive not really liked anything Squares done since Enix got heavily envolved, X was a dissapointment, X-2 should be illegal, and XII was just as dissapointing, So I've pretty much given up on the series all together as with the Resident Evil series, but XIII does seem to be okay from the more recent released infomation.

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X and X-2 were both made BEFORE Enix joined, just so you know.

X-2 Was made by Square Enix, Just so you know....

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Originally Posted by Wuggly Blight

X-2 Was made by Square Enix, Just so you know....

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I believe by the time it arrived outside of Japan, Squaresoft and Enix had merged. But in Japan it was still released under 'Squaresoft'. Don't go quoting me on this, I've read it somewhere here on eyesonff. Regardless, the idea of X-2 must have existed even before Enix came in. So your logic fails anyway. People just like to blame Enix for FF's so-called downfall, while Enix barely is involved with any FF game. Maybe not involved at all. But bleh, let's ignore that. Blaming Enix for a FF game not suiting one's tastes (thus making you not liking X and X-2 and XII your own fault) is fun, I guess.

Yeah because mergers so take 1 hour... "Don't go qouting me on this" then your logic fails? Geez man grow up. Enix and Square had been suffling there departments and teams for months before it hit the headlines, Square Enix was creditid with its Europrian release, and belive it or not, people dont go checking to see if the developer was diffrent in another country. FF12 was still a dissapointment (so your logic fails) so just because someone does not adore your beloved favorate game its not a invitation to go on a tantrum spam.

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Originally Posted by Wuggly Blight

Yeah because mergers so take 1 hour... "Don't go qouting me on this" then your logic fails? Geez man grow up. Enix and Square had been suffling there departments and teams for months before it hit the headlines, Square Enix was creditid with its Europrian release, and belive it or not, people dont go checking to see if the developer was diffrent in another country. FF12 was still a dissapointment (so your logic fails) so just because someone does not adore your beloved favorate game its not a invitation to go on a tantrum spam.

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Fool. Whenever did I say XII was my favourite game? Case you can't read, it's in gigantic (okay, exagerated) letters under my user name. FF III (NES/DS) is my favourite game.

You're just being ignorant thinking Enix was responsible for anything in X, X-2 or XII, which I very, very seriously doubt. Just as I very, very seriously doubt Squaresoft has any hand in Dragon Quest IX.

It's not Enix fault that you don't like a game. Or that it isn't exactly like how you want it to be.

And just so you know, I can't stand much of X either and I'll never touch X-2 cause X bored me to tears so why should I play its sequel, but I'm not going to blame Enix. Squaresoft made X, X-2 and XII. Not Enix. If DQ IX won't be fun for me, I'm not gonna blame Squaresoft because their people smurfed up Enix next game.

What? Squaresoft did NOT make XII, Squaresoft had been defunct 3 YEARS the time it came out, and XI even had Dragonquest refrences, (which didn't go down to well) so Im not sure what "logic I fail" your trying to argue over a series of bad games you dont like, and apparently, by the tone, I have to?

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Originally Posted by Wuggly Blight

What? Squaresoft did NOT make XII, Squaresoft had been defunct 3 YEARS the time it came out, and XI even had Dragonquest refrences, (which didn't go down to well) so Im not sure what "logic I fail" your trying to argue over a series of bad games you dont like, and apparently, by the tone, I have to?

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Is it that hard to grasp? I was merely implying That even within SE Squaresoft and Enix still work pretty much on their own, regardless of being merged. The teams of Enix and Squaresoft didn't suddenly go "Yo Enix guys, care to help us with our next FF game?!" or the other way around. Sure there are references (see Gilgamesh' sword in FF XII) but Enix teams being involved with making a FF game? Doubt it. So tell me, where exactly again is it Enix fault X, X-2 and XII weren't good games? I'm fine with people disliking games, I'm against people blaming Enix for FF going downhill. Cause it's simply not true. FF may be going downhill for some, but that being Enix fault, no.

Likewise, if DQ IX becomes a success, I really doubt it's because any guy from the FF-team had a hand in it.

Why the HELL would any company keep two seperate vast companies doing the same thing but using there own resources and running up the bills in a very competitive industry, Its far far far exesive, The term merging itself is obvious, not two companies work as normal but under the same name, alot of teams had been axed on both sides and departments and facilities, Its a JOINT effort, they are now one and the same, you can NOT put a wedge between it being Squares fault and not Enix when there the same company and the teams have melted and intergrated into each other, with shuffles and such and that includes directors, writers, producers, executives etc.

I think the only thing Squenix really needs to do is fire Nomura. XII proved that Squenix is still capable of making engrossing games that are more than barely-interactive movies about ridiculous teenagers working up the courage to kiss each other.

I like nomura's games about teenage kissing :)

there's no sense in changing a final fantasy formula because SE produce many other fine titles that they use for such experiments.

Nomura has already announced that the FFXIII compilation is the last Final Fantasy project he's working on. After that, he's dedicating himself entirely to the Kingdom Hearts series.

Next best thing to firing him, eh, Roto?

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Nomura has already announced that the FFXIII compilation is the last Final Fantasy project he's working on. After that, he's dedicating himself entirely to the Kingdom Hearts series.

Next best thing to firing him, eh, Roto?

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Indeed. :P

I am hesitant to say that the quality of the series has gone downhill until I sample the gameplay of Final Fantasy XIII.

I think that Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XII are far more different than Final Fantasy X before it, and that alienated a lot of people who were unable to play the former and found the latter too different than its predecessors. In reality, Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XII were very similar in concept and Final Fantasy XII only took aspects of Final Fantasy XI to make it work offline; furthermore, they utilized the developer concept of Ivalice to flesh out the backstory of the game. Ivalice had only been used before that in Vagrant Story and the Final Fantasy Tactics series.

I think that the series would be faring far better were Final Fantasy XI called Final Fantasy Online and another title was made several years ago called Final Fantasy XI. I'm sure that they have the development notes somewhere about an unfinished game that was meant to be Final Fantasy XI before the company decided to move forward with the online title. Do you know what I mean?

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I think that the series would be faring far better were Final Fantasy XI called Final Fantasy Online and another title was made several years ago called Final Fantasy XI. I'm sure that they have the development notes somewhere about an unfinished game that was meant to be Final Fantasy XI before the company decided to move forward with the online title. Do you know what I mean?

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yeah i thought so, too. but watching the retrospective changed my mind a little. apparently it is a pretty good game with good muisc, game art, gameplay, with a main story and an actual ending. So I think it's ok to call it FFXI. Not to mention it had the real people (not sakaguchi, although he was exec produc) who made the real "old-school" FF's working on it, it's like a new interpretation of the old FF world. I still gotta play it though...

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I think that the series would be faring far better were Final Fantasy XI called Final Fantasy Online and another title was made several years ago called Final Fantasy XI. I'm sure that they have the development notes somewhere about an unfinished game that was meant to be Final Fantasy XI before the company decided to move forward with the online title. Do you know what I mean?

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yeah i thought so, too. but watching the retrospective changed my mind a little. apparently it is a pretty good game with good muisc, game art, gameplay, with a main story and an actual ending. So I think it's ok to call it FFXI. Not to mention it had the real people (not sakaguchi, although he was exec produc) who made the real "old-school" FF's working on it, it's like a new interpretation of the old FF world. I still gotta play it though...

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Well, yes, there are several storylines and ending scenes. I completed the original game, Rise of the Zilart, and Chains of Promathia and they have wonderful stories. I think that they are fine to stand in Final Fantasy, but it is certainly alienating to some fans because even if you read the story online, you don't get the entire experience — additionally, your character is a generic template for some mysterious, detached hero in a lot of the cases and doesn't directly influence the storyline in any way.

Having not played the game, I ain't gonna say anything about what's wrong with FFXIII. Having not grown up on FF in the US, I have no idea how people really felt about FF7 during its development... didn't people view it as a loss of direction or something? Yet time and again it appears very high up on "Best Game Ever" lists in various magazines and on various websites. Next FF after a multiple of 6. Anyone see a pattern here?

Give it time, people. It's not like you're anxiously waiting for FFT and getting a snowball fight.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

It's because they share the common mythology involving the crystals, hence the name of the project: Fabula Nova Crystallis. They're also all coming out at relatively the same time. Given that the games are only called "Final Fantasy" so that they sell better, I don't really see how the number assigned to them is in any way relevant.

Really, what's the different between naming it FFXIII Versus or FFXIV? Both titles are just there for brand identity and making money. I don't see why the latter would be inherently better or more acceptable to people who have the opinion that companies using brand recognition to make money is evil.

Really, every company makes video games to make money. Anyone who thinks they make their games for the benefit of the fans is deluding himself. Any company that is more in touch with their fan base is merely that way because they view that approach as a good business decision.

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I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

I'm more concerned that SE is relying on their brand names too much cause they are afraid no one will like them trying new things. The other thing I'm afraid is that SE will get too used to the idea that slapping the FF/DQ title onto things will constitute as "liscence to print money" and they will start to slack off on the quality of their products. As the fan base, its our duty to keep them on their toes and I feel we need to strike a better balance in voicing what we want. We can't be too lenient or SE may abuse and eventually tarnish their own title series but we can't be too harsh or SE will be too afraid to move away from the brand names and never get around to making new IPs.

My personal opinion of the XIII project is that its either a.) Nomura's contract says he has to make three more FF titles and this was the only way he could get them done simultaneously ;) or b.) Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima wanted to make this an ambitious project cause this will be the first official FF project that doesn't have connections to the old guard of FF designers and thus are trying to establish their own personal mark. Revisiting the crystal theme is not only a nice nod to the older games but it will a way for them to establish their own take on the classic theme.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm more concerned that SE is relying on their brand names too much cause they are afraid no one will like them trying new things. The other thing I'm afraid is that SE will get too used to the idea that slapping the FF/DQ title onto things will constitute as "liscence to print money" and they will start to slack off on the quality of their products.

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Indeed - that's basically what sucked the life out of Star Trek from roughly 2000 onward, with creativity and originality discarded in favour of low-quality, poorly-written recycling of tired, unimaginative ideas. It wasn't universally true of course, but true enough.
As soon as the creative minds start to slack off and rely on 'the name' to shift the product, instead of doing their best to tell a story that they can be proud of, the series embarks on a downhill slide that's extremely hard to recover from. A critic once used the term 'franchise on autopilot' to describe the more recent Bond films, and it's the kind of stigma you have to try pretty hard to shake. It's likely to be especially true for video games, which tend to lack credibility among mainstream critics and suffer the wrath of fickle and whimsical gamers.

I think I had a point somewhere.... Oh yeah. Basically, the FF creators need to stay on top of their games and not slack off, or else they'll have a tough time climbing back up to their earlier high standard, and a tough time maintaining fan loyalty too.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

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Has Square Enix released any original titles in the last couple of years? I mean, one that is not connected to a past game or series of games?

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Originally Posted by Roogle

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

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Has Square Enix released any original titles in the last couple of years? I mean, one that is not connected to a past game or series of games?

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It's a Wonderful World.

And there's The Last Remnant Coming and that new Card based game, I believe...

Also, while it's true SE is making lots of FF games, isn't it so that their original games never sold as well as their main series? I'm not sure, but I've heard plenty of people say Vagrant Story for example, was awesome, but didn't sell that well.

And if brand recognition is a sign of weakness, what's Nintendo been doing all these years with Mario, Metroid and Zelda?

I have vaguely heard of that title, It's A Wonderful World, and I think that it is unfortunate that Square Enix does not spend as much money marketing the original title as they do for the brand titles. I can see why this would happen from a marketing standpoint, but I think that a heavily marketed original product has the potential to ease fans' discontentedness.

I wonder if any of those original titles have a chance of being released outside of Japan. I would lean towards a negative decision, at this point.

It's a Wonderful World wasn't that succesful in Japan I heard, but I'm not sure. I should look it up perhaps... But if it didn't sell well, well, it proves my point a bit. SE wants games to sell, but their original games as Vagrant Story and IAWW never reach the sales of FF, well, then what do you do as a good business-company?

I agree that while some spin-offs aren't that good, it's wrong also too say that just because it's a spinoff, SE didn't put any effort in it. Certainly not the case with XII RW for example. And let's not forget FFT, also a spinoff, but how many people love that game, huh? But okay, maybe FFT is in a league of its own, since it was made before SE's spinoff-madness...

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

It's because they share the common mythology involving the crystals, hence the name of the project: Fabula Nova Crystallis. They're also all coming out at relatively the same time. Given that the games are only called "Final Fantasy" so that they sell better, I don't really see how the number assigned to them is in any way relevant.

Really, what's the different between naming it FFXIII Versus or FFXIV? Both titles are just there for brand identity and making money. I don't see why the latter would be inherently better or more acceptable to people who have the opinion that companies using brand recognition to make money is evil.

Really, every company makes video games to make money. Anyone who thinks they make their games for the benefit of the fans is deluding himself. Any company that is more in touch with their fan base is merely that way because they view that approach as a good business decision.

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I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

I'm more concerned that SE is relying on their brand names too much cause they are afraid no one will like them trying new things. The other thing I'm afraid is that SE will get too used to the idea that slapping the FF/DQ title onto things will constitute as "liscence to print money" and they will start to slack off on the quality of their products. As the fan base, its our duty to keep them on their toes and I feel we need to strike a better balance in voicing what we want. We can't be too lenient or SE may abuse and eventually tarnish their own title series but we can't be too harsh or SE will be too afraid to move away from the brand names and never get around to making new IPs.

My personal opinion of the XIII project is that its either a.) Nomura's contract says he has to make three more FF titles and this was the only way he could get them done simultaneously ;) or b.) Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima wanted to make this an ambitious project cause this will be the first official FF project that doesn't have connections to the old guard of FF designers and thus are trying to establish their own personal mark. Revisiting the crystal theme is not only a nice nod to the older games but it will a way for them to establish their own take on the classic theme.

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First of all, it's obvious that they haven't simply slacked off and used FF/DQ as a "license to print money". Both the newest incarnations of both, FFXII and DQVIII have been bold departures from what came before (DQ graphically and FF almost everything-but-graphically). It's redundant for me to bring up that they've been trying new things.

I do agree that I would like to see some new IP's, but of course, The Last Remnant is exactly that, and is aimed to be a hugely publicized new title, most notably because it's for both PS3 and 360.

And I don't see any credible reason to believe a) or b) of your point on the XIII games. Nomura and Kitase have been bringing a new flavor to the series since FFV, Amano is going to be onboard for XIII and its been stated in interviews that his title designs and artwork is playing a large role in the world of XIII. The old guard of FF designers ended with FFIV. If you actually look into who made those games, it's obvious that the Sakaguchi/Amano/Uematsu triumvirate is not what American fans make it out to be (although uematsu's music has undoubtedly been a major part of every game up to XI, even XII arguably).

What I really want to see more than anything is SE making mini-games truly optional, not it's optional but you have to do them to do this, this and that. I like the early ones better partly because they really weren't about mini-games. Then you have the opposite to that, FFX, where you practically need to do that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

First of all, it's obvious that they haven't simply slacked off and used FF/DQ as a "license to print money". Both the newest incarnations of both, FFXII and DQVIII have been bold departures from what came before (DQ graphically and FF almost everything-but-graphically). It's redundant for me to bring up that they've been trying new things.

I do agree that I would like to see some new IP's, but of course, The Last Remnant is exactly that, and is aimed to be a hugely publicized new title, most notably because it's for both PS3 and 360.

And I don't see any credible reason to believe a) or b) of your point on the XIII games. Nomura and Kitase have been bringing a new flavor to the series since FFV, Amano is going to be onboard for XIII and its been stated in interviews that his title designs and artwork is playing a large role in the world of XIII. The old guard of FF designers ended with FFIV. If you actually look into who made those games, it's obvious that the Sakaguchi/Amano/Uematsu triumvirate is not what American fans make it out to be (although uematsu's music has undoubtedly been a major part of every game up to XI, even XII arguably).

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For now I agree that the quality is good, I'm just disturbed that when SE announces new titles almost 90% of them bear the FF title (the other 9% is DQ and 1% for everything else) . For now they are good but I'm mentioning the idea that eventually the quality may dwindle as time goes by which is why we can't give them slack ;) . Last Remnant is good to see but remember its the first original IP they've made since the merger (Drag-On Dragoon and Kingdom Hearts both being in production before the merger) That's 5 years without anything new or original. I understand the industry has hit hard times and most companies are trying to play it safe but I, like many gamers, just want to see something new.

As I stated before I do commend them for using their brand name intelligently though. FPS, RTS, and action platformers were never the companies strong points but they were able to take a chance with them by using the brand names. For that I commend them.

As for the DQVIII and XII being different, its because neither of them were worked on by their original teams. Matsuno is obvious but from what I've heard most of the original core DQ team left after VII which is why the franchise was handed over to the current developer. Its hard to argue DQ cause its very nature is to uphold tradition. DQ IX is making waves with its choice to move to handhelds but looking at the market, it was a smart move in my opinion. Of anything it just proves that the gaming community and marketplace don't take handhelds seriously...

My first comment on XIII was a joke, my second was a speculation that I thought would bring some interesting discussion, don't get your panties in a knot Bolivar. I think you take this Old/New Guard division too seriously. But I must state that Nomura's role in V and VI were very minor (monster designer in V and minor character designer in VI) So implying his input was detrimental to the older games is like saying this NASA ship will be good cause the lead designer of the shuttle had previous experience painting one of the older shuttles that happened to make it ;) . Nomura came into his own with VII and I do feel his input was good and fresh for its time. Of anything, I like him better as a monster designer and if he has to do characters, I find his heavy anime style (VII, KH series) to be his stronger talents.

Joking aside... What Kitase has done for the series is good though, in recent years I feel his desire to be a movie director has affected the series in a detrimental way (see point 2 of my things SE could change) Though I also blame Sakeguchi for this trend as well. Oddly enough, I would like to see Kitase return to a lead writing position again sense he wrote my favorite mainstream FF.

Nojima on the other hand got his start in VII and didn't become lead scenario writer till VIII. I don't like Nojima, and I do feel he's a terrible writer who insists on being the M. Night. Shamaylan (sp?) of video game writing. VIII was badly written, X was just unispiring, and how people could care about KH after what he did to KH2s plot is beyond me. If I was Daisuke Watanabe (scenario writer of KH1 and CoM), I would kick his ass for dropping the ball on that series. :mad: (still very bitter about KH2) Almost everything he touches never sets well with me so I can't see why I should be hopeful for XIII plotwise.

The point I was trying to make though, was why revisit the theme of the crystal for XIII? For series die hards, its a theme that is sorta thought as the heart of the series with five games using them as central to their theme. Think about it, its a new system, Nomura's last FF project for awhile, the first main FF title this team has worked on that doesn't have Sakeguchi's name attached to it... They are trying to do something special with XIII and I feel its them laying down a new mythos of FF, a more personal one. It was just a romantic thought and was not to be taken seriously or as a personal attack on the team.

DQVIII and XII both had developers from previous titles. I couldn't go into details for DQ, but Yuji Horii, Akira Toriyama, and Koichi Sugiyama have been the the core creative team since its inception, and they're all present for concept & scenario, art, and music, respectively.

As far as XII, Amano reprised his usual role, with Hiroyuki Ito and Hideo Minaba being lead developers among a varied mix of a team. The former has been with the series since I, and both have been key developers since V. As i previously said, the original "core" FF team you speak of stopped developing for the series after FFIV, returned for XI and the DS incarnations of III and IV.

Sakaguchi is a project coordinator. The only games he seems to have had an actual creative input on were VII and IX.

All that aside, i see what you're getting at with the new mythos of XIII. When you look at it another way - Kitase & co. have only made 1 out of the last 4 FF's. The first one for a new console is always a big event, and XIII is particularly historic in that the series has made more progress on the PS2 than any other system. This is a serious challenge for innovation, in addition to having incredibly powerful & new hardware at their fingertips, and FF being a massive brand name that encompasses all platforms. With all this weight on their back, and with the last 3 main installments being so varied that there is no clear direction for the series, I could see no better way than setting off XIII as Fabula Nova Crystalis - a series within itself, with a theme that is at the center of Final Fantasy. I think it's a pretty exciting time, i just wish we had a clue on what the progress is at right now.