Something I never really grasped was if Sephiroth was actually being controlled by Jenova or just acting on his own.
Any thoughts?
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Something I never really grasped was if Sephiroth was actually being controlled by Jenova or just acting on his own.
Any thoughts?
sephiroth is hojo and lucretcia's kid while in the woom they infused the fetus with jenova cells. thats the connection, jenova became a sort of hive mind... so sephiroth and the kids are borg
Sephiroth definitely has his independance though. He's like the queen, Jenova is king. He did the research. Went insane. And agrees with everything Jenova wants
it's been stated by the writers/directors that he was acting of his own will, Sephiroth was Sephiroth. However, in the end he was accomplishing Jenova's goals.
he just wanted to make his mommy proud...
The Sephiroth sleeping in the Northern Crater was the real and original one controlling the whole thing through his consciousness / connection to Jenova. He was swept there by the lifestream when he fell into it from the Nibelheim reactor.
The Sephiroth you followed around from the Shinra building up to that point was Jenova (working together with Sephiroth) using her(its?) ability to appear as another person. This is why when you first meet Sephiroth on the Junon boat he doesn't recognise you, as Jenova hasn't had access to that part of Sephiroth's memory yet. This also explains away the very weird alternative idea of Sephiroth going around carrying that great big lump of flesh.
She also morphed into Tifa briefly to get whoever was holding the black materia to come and hand it to Cloud, before turning back into "Sephiroth" and then disappearing.
From the meteor summoning onwards you are only dealing with the real one, and you only meet up with him in the crater.
It's a teamwork thing, they're both just as evil.
Sephiroth has no speaking roles in the game aside from the flashback.
You are wrong. Jenova is brain-dead during FFVII, she didn't have control over anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudane
The reason for Sephiroth "not recognising Cloud" in the Shinra Cargo Ship, was because he wanted to screw with Cloud's mind.
Nope. Jenova's body was already destroyed at that point(after you kills Jenova Death). The Tifa and the Sephiroth you saw in that scene, were illusions created by Sephiroth.Quote:
She also morphed into Tifa briefly to get whoever was holding the black materia to come and hand it to Cloud, before turning back into "Sephiroth" and then disappearing.
No, it's not a teamwork because Jenova is brain-dead. And because:Quote:
It's a teamwork thing, they're both just as evil.
Jenova in FFVII is not a character, but a plot-device. Sephiroth used her cells to bring the clones to him(and the Black Materia), to regenerate his body, and to interact with the outside world(outside the Northern Crater).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimania Omega Guide
We could say that Jenova is nothing more than an extension of Sephiroth.
Of course he have. He is using Jenova's body(using his appearance) to interact with you, speak with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalixir
naw man, thats all Jenova.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Wow, you're sure of yourself (and frankly, come across as rather arrogant)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
True, Sephiroth was controlling Jenova rather than the other way round, and I had some things mixed up, but Sephiroth himself was always sat at the crater. The one you follow around is Jenova, it is indeed Sephiroth controlling 'it' but it's not his body, which was always sat in that crater. He's controlling Jenova's shape shifting abilities to appear as himself.
It's been discussed countless times on here over the course of a decade...
Also if you supposedly destroyed Jenova just before Tifa comes to ask for the black materia, how does that explain there being 2 Sephiroths, one wandering around outside and one sat in his cocoon? How do you explain the thing labelled "Jenova" that you fight in the final battles?
Sorry if I was rude, it wasn't my intention, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudaneWow, you're sure of yourself (and frankly, come across as rather arrogant)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
True, Sephiroth was controlling Jenova rather than the other way round, and I had some things mixed up, but Sephiroth himself was always sat at the crater. The one you follow around is Jenova, it is indeed Sephiroth controlling 'it' but it's not his body, which was always sat in that crater. He's controlling Jenova's shape shifting abilities to appear as himself.
It's been discussed countless times on here over the course of a decade...
Also if you supposedly destroyed Jenova just before Tifa comes to ask for the black materia, how does that explain there being 2 Sephiroths, one wandering around outside and one sat in his cocoon? How do you explain the thing labelled "Jenova" that you fight in the final battles?
The body you follow during the first half of FFVII, is Jenova being controled by Sephiroth. The UOG explains that he/she throws parts of his/her body against you, and those parts transform in Jenova-Birth and Jenova-Life. But when the party reach the Crater, Jenova's body itself becomes Jenova-Death. After you kill it, the body Sephiroth was using during the first half of FFVII is gone(Sephiroth at the Crater - "You're right. This is the end of this body’s usefulness").
The Sephiroth/Tifa you saw after that, was nothing more than an illusion(like the Nibelheim created by him in that place). This is why he/she needed RedXIII to give the Black Materia to Cloud. Sephiroth/Tifa couldn't pick the Materia from him, because Tifa/Seph was just an illusion.
Before the final battle you fight Jenova-Synthesis. That's the result of the Reunion. All the cells inside the clones and the remaining cells of Jenova's body(and her head IIRC) came together, forming that body.
Jenova/Sephiroth said he became a traveler of the Lifestream. He said that he wanted to summon Meteor and become a god by absorbing the Lifestream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalixir
But you are stating it was Jenova speaking, not Sephiroth. So, you are saying that Jenova could speak even brain-dead, and that it was all her plan, not Sephiroth's(contradicting what the creators of FFVII stated)?
And look at that:
If it's Jenova speaking, why she is talking like Jenova is another person? I will tell you why. Because it's Sephiroth speaking about her, through her own body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenova/Sephiroth
OK... sorry, I misinterpreted your tone.
Now that you've explained it fully it makes good sense. I knew it was Jenova's body that you follow around, but not the ins and outs of its various forms and when it's destroyed. It actually explains the names of the Jenova iterations too.
That's part of the fun of this game, it's been around for what.. about 11 years now? And you still keep learning little bits about it all the time.
Sephiroth = Jenova?
...
is that you serapy?
Yes and No...
I believe Sephiroth is controlled by Jenova but in a very indirect way. Sephiroth's goals in the game directly correlate to Jenova's natural instincts. Jenova travels and devours the Lifestream of planets. She's an exterrestial parasyte like Lavos in CT. Sephiroth is just acting on the part of him that is Jenova, his talk of becoming a god is just the human side of him rationalizing the natural instincts of Jenova that exists within him and creates the illusion that Sephiroth came up with this whole nonsense on his own.
Yes Jenova is basically brain dead in the game (though I don't necessarily believe she's gone consciously) and Sephiroth overpowered her will and controlled her to manipulate everyone into doing what he needed done. But I feel Sephiroth is indirectly controlled by Jenova's cells to fulfill her natural purpose. Basically it comes down to genetics...
I wonder where Jenova is from. The female figure portrayed on Jenova's flesh makes it obvious that a woman was involved. I bet she really was an Ancient/Cetra. I wonder if the craterous calamity from the sky was an infectious virus that took over this Cetra woman and if Jenova was her name or just the name given to the virus.
yet at Gast's house at the Icicle town, Jenova is referred to as 'he'. An error, perhaps.
Do you think that it's possible that Jenova is simply an organic lifeform similar to bacteria that had no will of its own?
I envisioned it something like this. Jenova and Sephiroth become intertwined in a way that allows Jenova to act as an extension of his will and his body, yet Sephiroth is like the brain, and they can't really exist without the other, but they're both necessary for the events in the game to happen —
It makes me wonder what Jenova was like before. Does the Ultimania state anything about the Jenova from the past? Did it really have a will of its own or was it like a bacterium? If it was like a bacterium, that would explain why it did not succeed in nearly destroying the world the first time.
Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them and finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus..."
Not only did Jenova perform a sentient act, you can not "approach as a friend" using instincts, she also specificlaly targetted and went after other Cetra/Ancients. Jenova also has the ability to telepathically read people's minds and shapeshift into forms that would be effective to manipulate them...a very sentient move.
Actually, humans to this day can be attacked by non-sentient viral agents that cause us to hallucinate and experience what we want to as they tear us apart. Without clarification, there's no way to know exactly what Ifalna meant by what she said. She may come from a race of people who speak figuratively/in riddles.
I agree that it appears like it was a sentient creature, but how was Jenova contained and rendered inanimate? Does the Ultimania explain that part? Does Ifalna say anything about that, either? I wish that we were given more time with Ifalna in flashbacks, as she appeared to know much more about the planet than anyone else that we encounter in the course of the game.
I figure I'll chime in with how I understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephitachi7
(SPOILER)
Sephiroth is a human. He's a really strong human, but he's still mortal and bound by the laws of physics and such.
The Sephiroth that you see throughout the game isn't actually the man Sephiroth. The real Sephiroth was cast into a Mako Reactor by Cloud. You do see him for a time when Cloud gives him the Huge Materia while at the North Crater.
The Sephiroth that kills President Shinra and all that is actually Jenova, posing as Sephiroth.
Oh my my my. Some real clearing up needs to be done here.
Let's start from the beginning shall we, and lay down some facts.
Jenova is an alien, a viral life form that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individual cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when separated--Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aforementioned powers.
Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any reference to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the indigenous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weakening the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakened by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. Somehow, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to its former numbers. Or perhaps, the remaining Cetra was killed along with Jenova in the final battle. Whichever it was, the Cetra population never grew back to its former size and was (technically) extinct. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.
Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dead, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to recreate a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest to Shinra for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.
The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his ‘mother’ and himself.
Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling its body, obviously. Now a little history. You remember when, in Niblehiem, Cloud threw Sephiroth into the Mako below? Well, at that point, Sephiroth ceased to exist in physical form. Through sheer force of will, he didn’t merge into the Lifestream, as normally happens. He used the life-giving powers to re-animate Jenova’s body. He cannot bring Jenova to life, but can imbue it with the power to move. So in all the times you see Sephiroth in the game, it’s not really Sephiroth--it's actually Sephiroth controlling Jenova's body, and making it change shape to look like him. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.
As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain.
Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--Lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news-- for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happened to all the previous Sephiroth clones. When one loses their identity like this, the body is unable to defend itself; this allows the Jenova cells to ‘attack’ the human cells, since the body’s immunity system is down. The whole process, on the other hand, did not affect Zack, because he had a life that he liked and had confidence in himself. Thus, he was unaffected by the effects of Mako and his mind and body responded to the Jenova cells and attacked them.
However, Cloud, in some fashion it, is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. Now Sephiroth, who can control all Jenova cells, used the cells in Cloud to mess with his head, quite simply. He used these cells to control Cloud’s mind, which is why he handed over the black materia among other things. It wasn’t really Cloud, it was Sephiroth. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I believe I'll leave it at that.
I prefer 'Clack' :D
Seems like a good explanation. The one difference with other explanations I've heard is that it's usually said that Sephiroth's real body wasn't destroyed/killed - just that it entered the lifestream (same way as Cloud did) when he got thrown from the reactor, and then got carried by the lifestream to the North cave where he ended up in that blob of mako/materia for a while controlling Jenova's body and making it appear as himself. Essentially, by this explanation, there were 2 "Sephiroth" bodies in existence, one his real body and mind controlling the 'fake' one which is Jenova's body (puppet).
Dragon Mage is correct.
Actually, I think that's fairly easy to explain. Both Cloud and Zack were placed in Mako pools at the same time. Since the liquid of the Lifestream does not need physical integration to communicate memories, Zack's life before the events that led to his death were telecommunicated to Cloud during their incarceration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Yes. It is true that Seph's body was found encased in Materia and now I realize that it was never shown being freed. Basically, that was Seph's perfectly preserved but lifeless carcass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudane
The simple answer is no, Sephiroth is not Jenova.
THE JACKEL
Arrogant as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
Will you never be tired of presenting your opinion and speculation as a fact, on top of your high horse?
Wrong. Sephiroth himself said he would use the planet as a vessel to travel the universe, like Jenova did a long time ago.Quote:
Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself.
Jenova used planets as space-ships.
No:Quote:
In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream.
See? Nothing to do with "the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream".Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
Wrong again:Quote:
It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be known as Geostigma.
Geostigma don't turn people into monsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
And:
Not the Lifestream, but "living organisms".Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
Jenova's virus was NOT Geostigma. It was something completely different
Bull:skull::skull::skull::skull:. Sephiroth was the first one to be injected with J-cells, to find the Promised Land. After they found out the cells granted him super strength, speed, and skill, they decided to inject all SOLDIERs with them.Quote:
To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.
Wrong. No humans(injected with J-cells) can do that. Only Sephiroth(the real one) could fly, and only after he became Safer Sephiroth(and in the end of AC).Quote:
Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong.
Wrong again. It's explained how Cloud got hold of Zack's identity:Quote:
However, Cloud, in some fashion it, is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past.
Obs: "a new personality for him" = Zack's personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
It was the J-cells.
Yes, please.Quote:
and I believe I'll leave it at that.
Do a favor to us: get down of your high horse, and stop presenting your assumptions as facts.
Indeed. If I'm right in saying, Jenova inside the Shinra Headquarters is the main body of Jenova, and Sephiroth summons the remaining parts of Jenova to reunite with the head that he posesses at the Northern Crater, so he can "carry out" his Spirit Energy and vessel plans with her once Meteor hits.
The Sephiroth you follow upto the Northern Crater is the main body from the Shinra HQ as stated. Presumably the fact it didn't act until Cloud and the party got there isn't just coincidence- when Cloud looked through the window (and this is all guess work but it seems logical) it may have read Cloud's memory and mimiced Sephiroth from it... possibly.
The different parts of Jenova you fight are as far as I know, all the main body aside from Synthesis which is the result of the Reunion (but not full strength, as some of the Sephiroth clones didn't make it and Cloud obviously never surrendered himself to Jenova.)
I need to make one little correction to that statement - all of the guys in black died.
And the different parts that you fight were not all the main body - certainly the fight in the Cargo ship and the one at the Temple of Ancients were different parts of Jenova, but not the actual body.
No.1 The flying Sephiroth was not the real Sephiroth. It was Jenova. The "real" Sephiroth is a corpse encased in Materia crystal.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
No.2 I believe DM is referring to the part where Sephiroth is found in the materia because that is when CLOUD is hovering and walking around on the freaking ceiling. Hooah!I need to correct myself. Cloud doesn't have Zack's memories. He doesn't remember Aerith. He doesn't remember Gongaga. He has Zack's personality as the Crystal has stated but not his memories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-XActually, I think that's fairly easy to explain. Both Cloud and Zack were placed in Mako pools at the same time. Since the liquid of the Lifestream does not need physical integration to communicate memories, Zack's life before the events that led to his death were telecommunicated to Cloud during their incarceration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
I always thought it was Sephiroth, walking around carrying bits of Jenova, and everytime he encountered the party he'd be like, "Eat Jenova!" and throw an arm or something at them. Guess I should have paid more attention, I got really confused...
I know. This is why I said the real Sephiroth only flew after he became Safer Sephiroth(the guy with the wings), and in the end of AC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
He was being controled by Sephiroth at the moment. Considering the fact Sephiroth was holding the party in the air(while crushing their bodies) before the fight with Bizarro, I don't see why he couldn't make Cloud walk on the "ceiling".Quote:
No.2 I believe DM is referring to the part where Sephiroth is found in the materia because that is when CLOUD is hovering and walking around on the freaking ceiling. Hooah!
Cloud by himself(or any other person injected with J-cells, with exception of Sephiroth of course), can't do that. Proof of it, is that Cloud never did that again.
Compilation Network - Compilation of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania
Trivia 1
Sephiroth all over the place.
In "FFVII" wherever Cloud and company go there is Sephiroth, but as a matter of fact it's not Sephiroth's real body. The headless Jenova stored in the ShinRa Building, is the one who manifests in Sephiroth's form.
As for Sephiroth's true self, when he fell inside the Nibel Mako Reactor it dissolved in the Lifestream, but over the course of five years his body reconstructed itself in the Northern Crater where the Lifestream concentrates as he bided his time for his revival. Before long, he was able to call Cloud, the Copies, and Jenova's body together to unify in the Reunion, and use them to obtain the black materia to summon Meteor. After that, it was the complete body that Cloud and company would fight against.
Well who pissed in your corn flakes? :greenie:Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalArrogant as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
You say I'm arrogant, yet look at your opening words. Did I not clearly and in great detail provide a plausible explanation for the question brought to bear? Seeing as I'm the only one to have done so, I've eliminated many speculative ideas....
And not through my opinion either, thank you. Everything I posted was concluded after playing the game many times, examining the details, looking up reasons etc. on only reliable sources, and then I compiled my findings in one long 'essay' of sorts. More than you have done, I see.Quote:
Will you never be tired of presenting your opinion and speculation as a fact, on top of your high horse?
Very well. If you really want to say that a planet counts as a spaceship, then by all means, do so. Usually, the popular idea of a spaceship is the silver disc and so on and so on. You know. The kind of thing you see in movies. Thus, I did not go through the process of explaining how an entire planet was used as a spaceship. But, whatever floats your boat.Quote:
Wrong. Sephiroth himself said he would use the planet as a vessel to travel the universe, like Jenova did a long time ago.
Jenova used planets as space-ships.
I do believe we are referring to two separate and strikingly different situations here. I'm referring to the knowledge gained through the Lifestream as a kind of reconaissance, if you will. You are referring to manipulating the hosts memories (or what they think is a memory) so that the parasite (in this case, Jenova cells) remains intact and safe through the safety of the host. Different situations call for different actions.Quote:
No:Quote:
In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream.
See? Nothing to do with "the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream".Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
True, it didn't. But then again, there was no direct force/creative mind behind Geostigma, was there? Had there been a being with the ability to control the Jenova cells, and with the inherent mutant powers we know that Jenova cells are capable of, Jenova could effectively turn people into monsters. Who knows what the true powers of Jenova can do. It could probably do more.Quote:
Wrong again:Quote:
It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma.
Geostigma don't turn people into monsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
Ah, this is a common misconception. I never said it was Geostigma. I said it was like Geostigma. All this comparison was for, was to find something relatable for the reader to get a better understanding of it. If they are asking a question that requires an answer via my essay, then I wouldn't assume they have a very deep understanding of the fine nuances of the game. That's why they're asking the question! So, I made a rough reference to something they are no doubt familiar with so they could get the gist of the idea. You see? Don't get so riled up over such a simple thing for goodness' sake.Quote:
And:
Not the Lifestream, but "living organisms".Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
Jenova's virus was NOT Geostigma. It was something completely different
Go check your facts again, dear boy. Hojo himself said that he injected his unborn child with Jenova cells. He also states that he is Sephiroth's father.Quote:
Bull:skull::skull::skull::skull:. Sephiroth was the first one to be injected with J-cells, to find the Promised Land. After they found out the cells granted him super strength, speed, and skill, they decided to inject all SOLDIERs with them.Quote:
To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.
This is why Sephiroth came out the way he did, and the other SOLDIER's didn't become 'sephiroth clones'. And besides, the entire game, Sephiroth speaks of 'finding the promised land'. He even kills President Shinra because the Shinra were poking their noses into finding the promised land as well. Since when did he ever get there? I don't know where you're getting this from.
I don't mean literal 'flying' as with wings, dear boy. :greenie: And Cloud did manage to levitate and walk on ceilings in the North Crater, yes? I doubt Sephiroth was the one manipulating Cloud, as I do believe he was saving his energy for using the black materia. He had already pushed Cloud's mind to the breaking point, and to handing him the black materia. Cloud did the rest: Sephiroth had comparitively little to do when Hojo confirmed that Cloud had been used as an experiment.Quote:
Wrong. No humans(injected with J-cells) can do that. Only Sephiroth(the real one) could fly, and only after he became Safer Sephiroth(and in the end of AC).Quote:
Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong.
Yes, Cloud never did that again. However, did Cloud ever get into the mental breakdown state he was in at the time ever again? The answer is no. Not even when Aerith died. These were powers deep in the subconcious, seen only when there was very little Cloud left. :D So much for that theory, The Crystal, but I guess it was worth a shot. Don't feel bad, failure happens all the time. You're just particularly prone to it.
Really? And where in that quote does it say that it 'fused' with his own ideal vision of himself? If it's and ideal version of himself, then why does he abandon so much of his own personality to pick up so much of Zack's? Wouldn't it be better to be your OWN ideal self, not your own ideal someone else? That's stretching it, Crystal. Indeed, I can only conclude that it's your own interpretation of how 'Zoud' came about.Quote:
Wrong again. It's explained how Cloud got hold of Zack's identity:Quote:
However, Cloud, in some fashion it, is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past.
Obs: "a new personality for him" = Zack's personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
It was the J-cells.
You say I'm selling my speculation as truth, yet I don't see you doing anything but what you accuse me of. There's a word for people like you: You're kind is generally called a hypocrite.
I can say the same of you. Here's a tip: When you accuse someone of a particular thing, it's a good idea to NOT do that very thing as well. Makes you look bad. Stupid. You know. A bigoted hypocrite! :tongue:Quote:
Yes, please.Quote:
and I believe I'll leave it at that.
Do a favor to us: get down of your high horse, and stop presenting your assumptions as facts.
Now now children, settle down.
/slapforeheadQuote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
Of course. Never thought of the Jenova cells reunion thing. That makes perfect sense, so AC wasn't his first reunion and probably won't be his last...
I can answer that question by going a bit deeper into the meaning of the Promised Land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
I could be mistaken, but according to the information provided by the UOG (as well as in-game dialogue from Aerith, herself), the Promised Land is not any one particular place set in stone that you can easily find on a map, but rather, it is something unique to each individual that brings a person supreme happiness. Thus, the term "Promised Land" is open to interpretation among the cast of FFVII; therefore, the "Promised Land" Aerith ultimately sought is not the same as the "Promised Land" Sephiroth and the Shinra were seeking (which is reiterated in "Maiden Who Travels The Planet"); basically, there's two known interpretations of the Promised Land in-game. Here's how this is possible.
Sephiroth sought the "Promised Land" to rule the Planet, as did Shinra, but they both had different means to do so. Sephiroth sought to use the Black Materia to call Meteor to injure the Planet to crisis levels, and steal the spiritual energy gathered to heal the wound for himself, while Shinra sought to build a larger version of Midgar with Mako Reactors draining even more spiritual energy than the ones currently active, and in the process, increasing their profits; obviously, such an area would have to be abundant in the Planet's spiritual energy. Sephiroth and the Shinra's interpretation of the "Promised Land" ended up being the Northern Cave.
The Cetra, on the other hand, sought the Promised Land to achieve supreme happiness by virtue of the peaceful sleep of eternal rest. Essentially, this means that the Promised Land could only be reached through death. There's only one place someone goes after death; the Lifestream. Which tells me one thing; the Cetra believe that the Lifestream, itself, is the Promised Land.
By falling into the Lifestream via the Nibelheim Mako Reactor AND ending up encased in a shell of materia in the Northern Cave, Sephiroth ended up finding BOTH known interpretations of the Promised Land.
Hmm, I know what you're saying, and I agree that the Promised Land is based soley on one's interpretation of what it actually is. However, The Crystal said that he was the first one to get there.
No, no he wasn't. The Crystal is saying that the Promised Land is a set place. It isn't. :P
Dragon Mage, it doesn't matter how many times you played the game. If your conclusions goes against official information, then you are wrong.
Did you forget what you said? Let me quote you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
But Jenova came in a planet.Quote:
However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself.
You are refering to Jenova gaining/absorbing knowledge from the Lifestream, something that never happened. It's just another of your assumptions.Quote:
I do believe we are referring to two separate and strikingly different situations here. I'm referring to the knowledge gained through the Lifestream as a kind of reconaissance, if you will. You are referring to manipulating the hosts memories (or what they think is a memory) so that the parasite (in this case, Jenova cells) remains intact and safe through the safety of the host. Different situations call for different actions.
Jenova's virus was NEVER called "Geostigma" by ANY official source released by S-E, so stop calling it that. And there WAS a "creative mind" behind her virus. The original Jenova(at the time of the Cetra) is described by the UOG as being "cunning" and "manipulative".Quote:
True, it didn't. But then again, there was no direct force/creative mind behind Geostigma, was there? Had there been a being with the ability to control the Jenova cells, and with the inherent mutant powers we know that Jenova cells are capable of, Jenova could effectively turn people into monsters. Who knows what the true powers of Jenova can do. It could probably do more.
And about Geostigma itself, Sephiroth was controling the J-cells to create it.
Both Sephiroth and the original Jenova were "creative minds".
Not to mention, your original quote was:
The part in bold never happened. It's an assumption you made, and presented as a fact.Quote:
It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma
Yeah, and I proved it ISN'T "like Geostigma".Quote:
Ah, this is a common misconception. I never said it was Geostigma. I said it was like Geostigma. All this comparison was for, was to find something relatable for the reader to get a better understanding of it. If they are asking a question that requires an answer via my essay, then I wouldn't assume they have a very deep understanding of the fine nuances of the game. That's why they're asking the question! So, I made a rough reference to something they are no doubt familiar with so they could get the gist of the idea. You see? Don't get so riled up over such a simple thing for goodness' sake.
Geostigma is "a condition brought on by the overworking of the body's immune system, trying to purge Jenova's cells that have entered the body." as explained by the Compilation Ultimania.
Jenova's virus was the J-cells transforming people into monsters.
Not "like Geostigma" at all.
And you said the original Jenova corrupted the Lifestream, something that never happened. This is why I answered with this:
Read the part in bold. "other living organisms" NOT "the Lifestream".Quote:
And:
Not the Lifestream, but "living organisms".Quote:
Originally Posted by translation of the Ultimania Omega
Learn to read. Did I say Sephiroth wasn't Hojo's son? No.Quote:
Go check your facts again, dear boy. Hojo himself said that he injected his unborn child with Jenova cells. He also states that he is Sephiroth's father.
This is why Sephiroth came out the way he did, and the other SOLDIER's didn't become 'sephiroth clones'.
And the other SOLDIERs didn't became Sephiroth clones because of their strong will.
Learn to read. I said he was injected with J-cells "to find the Promised Land". I never said he found it.Quote:
And besides, the entire game, Sephiroth speaks of 'finding the promised land'. He even kills President Shinra because the Shinra were poking their noses into finding the promised land as well. Since when did he ever get there? I don't know where you're getting this from.
If you wasn't talking about "literal flying" then you should have choosen another word. "Levitating" for example.Quote:
I don't mean literal 'flying' as with wings, dear boy. :greenie: And Cloud did manage to levitate and walk on ceilings in the North Crater, yes? I doubt Sephiroth was the one manipulating Cloud, as I do believe he was saving his energy for using the black materia. He had already pushed Cloud's mind to the breaking point, and to handing him the black materia. Cloud did the rest: Sephiroth had comparitively little to do when Hojo confirmed that Cloud had been used as an experiment.
And have Cloud ever flied or walked on ceilings again, after that moment? No? I wonder why. :rolleyes2
Speculation =/= factQuote:
Yes, Cloud never did that again. However, did Cloud ever get into the mental breakdown state he was in at the time ever again? The answer is no. Not even when Aerith died. These were powers deep in the subconcious, seen only when there was very little Cloud left. :D
His "own ideal vision of himself" is the vision of him being a 1st Class. It was what he wanted to be.Quote:
Really? And where in that quote does it say that it 'fused' with his own ideal vision of himself? If it's and ideal version of himself, then why does he abandon so much of his own personality to pick up so much of Zack's? Wouldn't it be better to be your OWN ideal self, not your own ideal someone else? That's stretching it, Crystal. Indeed, I can only conclude that it's your own interpretation of how 'Zoud' came about.
And it's not my interpretation. What I presented in my previous post was a quote from the UOG.
Oh, but I forgot you know more about FFVII than the creators of it. Sorry. :rolleyes2
You can call me "dear boy" all you want. That just proves how arrogant you are.
But really, stop making yourself look like a fool. If you don't have any concrete evidence(aka, quotes from the games, information from the books or interviews with the creators) to support your argument, then shut up.
It's easy to see you are full of :skull::skull::skull::skull:. We just need to read the official materials.
Hey, guys and girls. Don't let Dragon Mage fool you again. Go here:
Compilation Network - Compilation of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania
And here:
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega FAQ - IGN FAQs
Now everyone can find out when you are lying, Dragon Mage. Isn't that great?!
I think it is.
Have a nice day.
The Crystal: Stop being rude. You can argue a point and disagree with it, but do not tell another member to shut up in insult them.
Thank you, Leeza.
The Crystal, I don't know what you're problem is, but cool down. You're debating pointless minutia. I've explained any misunderstanding's that could've come from reading my essay, yet you persist. Obviously I have a clear understanding of the fine mechanics of the game, and I would never offer my own opinion as fact.
Thing is, UOG explains things, yes, but not always in a way people can understand and/or relate to. My essay is merely that information put in a simpler way. With simplifying comes some compromise, yes, but on a level that is so insignificant, it's pointless to debate over.
Desist, will you? I've answered the question, and now you're grabbing as straws to make a fight. I'm sorry, but no matter how hard you try, I will not engage in this petty brawl you are seeking to incite.
Dragon Mage: Your post is absolutely not necessary. You gave a warn and that was sufficient. Do not prolong the issue.
FFVII's story is already complicated and bad translated. We don't need a guy throwing his "factual" speculation to complicate it even more.
No one can blame me, for using official information to correct him.
The Crystal: Drop it.
What the heck was Kadaj putting into the water that the kids drank? More J-cells? To tilt the scales of power against the body's natural defenses, I could imagine. More importantly, as Crystal said, it was all orchestrated by the will of J-Seph and Kadaj even admits to being a puppet no greater than the kids they used as shields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
By the way, Crystal, "it could have" doesn't sound to me like DM was presenting this theory as fact.
Was any of this supposed to have been mentioned somewhere in DoC?Quote:
To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.
Also, Crystal, that Bizarro was the 'Awakened' Sephiroth. Of course he could manipulate the group. But as DM said, I doubt the dude in the Crystal could have levitated Cloud and allowed him to walk on the ceiling. Besides which, Cloud displays his own ability to levitate objects and otherwise defy gravity many other times in the game and especially in AC.Quote:
Cloud did manage to levitate and walk on ceilings in the North Crater, yes? I doubt Sephiroth was the one manipulating Cloud, as I do believe he was saving his energy for using the black materia. He had already pushed Cloud's mind to the breaking point, and to handing him the black materia. Cloud did the rest: Sephiroth had comparitively little to do when Hojo confirmed that Cloud had been used as an experiment.Quote:
He was being controled by Sephiroth at the moment. Considering the fact Sephiroth was holding the party in the air(while crushing their bodies) before the fight with Bizarro, I don't see why he couldn't make Cloud walk on the "ceiling".
Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz are spirit bodies created by Sephiroth. They don't have J-cells in them, and therefore cannot put it into the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
That black think was something like Sephiroth/Jenova's essence. It activated the Reunion instinct in the kids(who already had J-cells), and made them look for Jenova's head(what Kadaj and his "brothers" wanted to find).
Kadaj wanted to use the Reunion instincts of the kids, to lead him to Jenova.
Leeza told me to drop it, and that's what I will do.Quote:
By the way, Crystal, "it could have" doesn't sound to me like DM was presenting this theory as fact.
No.Quote:
Was any of this supposed to have been mentioned somewhere in DoC?
Remember the "dude in the crystal" could control Jenova's body, the clones, and hold back Holy, all at the same time. And he still could use the Black Materia without dying after it, and create a HUGE barrier around the Crater.Quote:
Also, Crystal, that Bizarro was the 'Awakened' Sephiroth. Of course he could manipulate the group. But as DM said, I doubt the dude in the Crystal could have levitated Cloud and allowed him to walk on the ceiling.
Sephiroth's mind is powerful. So powerful he could come back from dead many times, because of it.
I don't see why it's so hard to believe ha made Cloud, one of his clones, levitate.
All the characters of AC "defy gravity". And tha's just "jumping very high". Cloud never levitated or walked on ceilings before or after the scene at the Northern Crater. Never.Quote:
Besides which, Cloud displays his own ability to levitate objects and otherwise defy gravity many other times in the game and especially in AC.
And Cloud levitating his swords... That was part of a Limit Break. But he wasn't using any Limit in the scene at the Crater, was he?
Wow. So then I guess LIMIT BREAKS aren't a part of Cloud's living nature and doesn't have anything to do with his own skills. Interesting pov. I'd never thought of it that way before.
It can be an "interesting pov" to you, but it isn't my pov. I never said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
What I said, is that from what the story showed us, Cloud can only levitate things, during his most powerful Limit Break. And a Limit Break he didn't learn in the game(Omnislash Version 5).
But he wasn't performing a Limit at the Crater, meaning that he couldn't fly by himself.
And if the Sephiroth clones could levitate, why they didn't use this power to go to the Crater(instead of slowly walking like zombies)? And if Cloud could levitate, why he only did that in Sephiroth's presence? The same Sephiroth who could lift people in the air with telekinesis.
Lets try using some logic and common sense, okay?
One thing that I have to point out is that during Cloud's Omnislash v5 Cloud's swords arent "Levitateing" they seperate and the scene is slowed down for the viewers pleasure he is actully moveing increadbly fast so much so that he has time to grab and slash Sepheroth with each sword in a matter of seconds.
Pertaining to physical ability? Yeah, that holds up in the face of a game where an untrained Dragoon (Cid) could jump twenty feet and that spawned a movie whose characters could jump twenty feet in the air and could launch Cloud a mile toward heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Who cares if Cloud had to activate a LIMIT to levitate (Meteorain btw)? Nobody else could do it (except Barret, but he had help).
What proof can you offer that he wasn't using a LIMIT at the crater anyway?
Dragon Mage was banned for condescending comments like this. Please don't fall to her level.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Untrained?! The characters of FFVII fought against the most powerful beings in the world, to save it from total destruction. They defeated monsters, robots, Turks, SOLDIERs, Jenova, the Weapons, Sephiroth... And you say they are untrained?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
Considering what they did during FFVII, is not a surprise that(by the time of AC) they are super-humans.
If you are talking about the fight with Bahamut Sin, Cloud needed help of his friends to reach the Summon. He didn't levitate.Quote:
Who cares if Cloud had to activate a LIMIT to levitate (Meteorain btw)? Nobody else could do it (except Barret, but he had help).
1) The Limit that makes him be able to levitate things, wasn't learned in FFVII(Omni V. 5).Quote:
What proof can you offer that he wasn't using a LIMIT at the crater anyway?
2) A Limit is caused by a surge of adrenaline, allowing the person to use part of their spirit energy. This is why characters only use it in battle.
I still hold that in the game, Cid was not a trained Dragoon. He was a damned pilot like Cid of FF4.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
No, I was actually referring to the Level 3 LIMIT Break, Meteorain. It may be the only attack in which he himself levitates, but I still felt it should be mentioned.
And fine, Cloud's abilities are not determined by the small amount of J-Cells he'd at one time had in his body.
Yeah, Cid was just a pilot... At the begin of the story. Then he joins your party, kicks the ass of Jenova, the Weapons, and Sephiroth, and becomes much stronger(as proved by AC).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
RPG characters evolves during their adventure to save the planet/universe/whatever. Cid is not different.
One of Barrets Limit Breaks in the game, is using a satelite to shoot his enemyes from space. Do you really thinks he have control over a satelite in the story?! Of course not!
Meteorain is the same. All Limit Breaks are the same. They are exagerated versions of what the characters can really do. Cloud cannot fly during Meteorain, and he cannot create meteors out of nowhere. That's only gameplay.
And some of his abilities are determined by J-cells, of course. But not levitation.
Gosh, there are some big egos in this thread.
Once again, as we were discussing in the "hate" thread, people are analysing this game FAR too much! Things like jumping in the air are just there for effect, I don't think they have an official explanation, it's just to look cool.
Yeah, you're right. I apologize. I sometime's get Final Fantasy's confused with my own stories in which I absolutely must have an explanation for everything that ever happens lest there be a reason for some twit to examine and debunk my creations.
I didnt know she was banned..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii RyűkishiDragon Mage was banned for condescending comments like this. Please don't fall to her level.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
anyway.. Lets put the facts straight here..
Sephiroth was a child that was implanted with JENOVA cells in the womb. This created a mutant/hybrid/monster child that turned out very strong.
He obeyed what he was told to do by SOLDIER until he thought that he might not be human.. when he found out what he was he got into a rage and went to find JENOVA.
Until this point it can be said he wasnt controlled, because JENOVA was also being contained in some sort of stasis pod.
After the pounding from cloud he fell into the mako stream with JENOVA's head.. but in FFVII hojo has JENOVA's head as well.. so he lost that.
All those who have JENOVA cells are drawn to the main body, but sephiroth seemed to use JENOVA.. not like a master, but like a weapon...
from what i can conclude is that he wasnt being controlled by force, but more by trying to please his mother like in FFVII:AC
Its a confusing subject, as it isnt made very clear.
This is wha thappens when you overanalyze simple storylines.
Like the guy who once tried to convince people The Brain from Pinky & The Brain was a despot with a mentality similar to Hitler's.
Somethings are just plain and not meant to be delved into. FFVII's crapfest of a plot is one of them.
Unless we're talking about a sidestory? Like Barret and Dyne? There wa sa good story.
amen brother.. could you please post like this in every conspiracy thread thought up by future esthar in the FFVIII forum?Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I seem to be fighting a losing battle trying to convince people that Rinoa=Ultimecia=Zell=Squall=Big black guy.. is just overanalysing.. or one step beyond that.
It's "one step beyond that". The Ultimania already destroyed this theory, by stating that sorceresses have normal life-spams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
These people aren't overanalysing, they are directly contradicting official information.
People who still believe Rinoa is Ultimecia, are the same as people who believe Jenova was controling Sephiroth. They refuse to accept reality.
*gets teary eyed*
sniff.. you two are now my best friends in these threads :)
Here are my 2 cents on the Sephiroth/ Jenova issue.
Sephiroth's chief issue in his growth and development into a planet-killer has more to do with the duality of his childhood. He was trained to kill to be nothing more then a weapon. He lacked empathy, and so when he found out he was nothing more then a lab rat he freaks. He wants revenge and romaticizes the idea of Jenova as the perfect killer, the mother he never had to bring about his vengeance.
I get confused on the issue of Sephiroth as a character because the game was never clear about his actual self until the very end of the game. I mean, flashbacks and everything through Cloud are not very dependable as a reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashini
Yeah, seeing the story through Cloud's perspective does blur the basic concepts of the plot, because you see the same scenes three or four times before the truth is revealed. I thought this was annoying plot device.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
Wow I've learned quite a lot about Sephiroth here, TBH I thought he was just a tad mentally unstable ^^
One thing I can still never understand - Why when you have those 100000 opportunities to take a masamune can't you!? It's an awesome sword! Is Cloud smokin' stuff or what? :/