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I'm glad that they included my favorite RPG, Final Fantasy IV, VI & VII.
No list of Japanese RPG greats is complete without that one.
Man, I hope Kurt gets paid by the word.
I'm glad FF8 and 10 were included :jess:. Really spoilery, so I didn't read most of it, but what I did read was well-written.
I liked his comments on FFXII, that game gets so much unwarranted criticism, and too little praise for its considerable strengths and innovations.
Any individual's list of 'the greatest/best/hottest/baddest/crummiest' of anything is always going to overlook things that others feel should be there, so I'm not too worried if the overall list doesn't coincide with my opinions :3
I pretty much lost interest in the article once I saw this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necronopticous
Did anyone else think they used Blanca's Pee attack for screen shot for Shadow Hearts 2? I seriously had to take a double take.
As usual for Gamasutra I don't agree 100% but it's a smarter, more insightful take than damn near any other game publication would have, and it's a hell of a lot better reasoned than any other list I've seen.
Of course I might just be giving it kudos because it rates Suikoden II only one place below it's deserved, and because it's not afraid to put Chrono Cross more than a few places above Trigger. Not sure about BoF: DQ being as high as it is, and I'd probably put Skies of Arcadia in its place. But these are nitpicks. As I said, this is a fair list with sound reasoning behind the choices.
Edit: Another reason I may be rating it higher than I should is that it doesn't have a hardon for FFIX.
Though it looks to me like they are not placed in any particular order, I hate to say that I mostly agree with the list. Granted I never played a few of them but the fact that BoF:Dragon Quarter, Shin Megami Tensei III, and Persona 3 are on the list astounds me cause all three are not very mainstreamed...
If I have a complaint, its that I don't really feel X or VIII should be counted seperate, hell even V and XII is pushing it for me. He should have just dropped a few of them and looped the others like he did to IV,VI, and VII. I also disagree with his views on CT being DQ with an FF makeover. But beyond that, I'm amazed I mostly agree.
A surprisingly competent list (someone is actually giving Nocturne the credit it deserves? Madness). The only ones I really disagree with are FFVIII and FFX. FFVIII has a whole sleuth of problems that I think at the very least prevent it from being top 20 material and while FFX is a very good game in its own right, it brought a whole load of poor design choices to the genre that became unfortunately prevalent PS2 era. Best weapon customization system ever though.
I would have traded them out and put in Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete and either Tactics Ogre or FFT. Otherwise, while the rest of the games weren't necessarily ones I would have voted for (*cough*ChronoCross*cough*), I can understand the logic behind putting them there.
It was an interesting read, but I was kinda disappointed that FFIX wasn't on the list.
Gamasutra is an awesome site, and some very interesting articles. It was a good read. Other excellent RPGs that didn't make the list (SO2, Tales, Suikoden III) did get a mention somewhere or another.
FFIX didn't really excel at anything and wasn't particularly groundbreaking or unique in any way, nor was it supposed to, as it was a nostalgic collaboration of previous Final Fantasy titles. It was done in a fashion to accommodate its style in a three dimensional universe, as to combine the past and present of RPGs. Even for such a restricted gameplay device, it wasn't executed perfectly. So, there's no reason that a game like that should be on an Essential RPGs list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
Glaring omission: Vagrant Story.
Other than that, though, I found myself shockingly floored by the list. Being another person's opinion and all, it's no surprise that I would take out a few of their picks and shove in a few of my own, but I was absolutely shocked to see Panzer Dragoon Saga, Valkyrie Profile, EarthBound, Shadow Hearts: Covenant, and a nice helping of Shin Megami Tensei love on the list! I agree with much of what was there, and went in expecting most of my favorites to be ignored. It's a pleasant surprise that most of my favorites were being celebrated, then.
Oh yes there is. It freakin rocks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichimonji
Best sound track ever, according to the man himself, Nobuo Uematsu. The best game ever, according to the creator of Final Fantasy, Sakaguchi. That alone is reason enough.
It streamlined everything perfectly and is the perfect example of a JRPG.
Accurate appraisal of FFIX is accurateQuote:
Originally Posted by Article
I liked the Chrono Cross review but I am sadded at a lack of Tales and Star Ocean.
Wait, what!? So instead of thinking for yourself and forming your own opinions on what makes a good game, you're content to let the creators of certain games do all of the thinking for you? They're NOT gods, they're people, and their opinions are just that: opinions, not law. It must be horrible to be able to simply shut your brain off and put it on "auto-pilot". I like FFIX, but not because Uematsu or Sakaguchi told me to. o.O The fact that those two like it doesn't mean that the author of this list had to include it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisteiner
I apologise if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say, but if that is indeed the case, then you really needed to word it all much better.
an opinion is an opinion, that's all any of these lists are
THE JACKEL
This fella has an em dash fetish! It was a pretty cool list. Obviously, like others, I do not agree with everything, but it was a fun read. I'm glad to see a list that can use the likes of X and XII and Trigger and Cross at the same time. Fans are so "This one is perfect and this one is complete :skull::skull::skull::skull:" about such things, which is stupid.
Conglomerating IV, VI, and VII was a pretty big cop out though :jess:
Yeah, you completely misinterpreted what I meant. I mean, FFIX was my favourite game ever long before I heard about Nobuo and Sakaguchi loving it. I was just disagreeing with people who think that FFIX wasn't that special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard von ElruWait, what!? So instead of thinking for yourself and forming your own opinions on what makes a good game, you're content to let the creators of certain games do all of the thinking for you? They're NOT gods, they're people, and their opinions are just that: opinions, not law. It must be horrible to be able to simply shut your brain off and put it on "auto-pilot". I like FFIX, but not because Uematsu or Sakaguchi told me to. o.O The fact that those two like it doesn't mean that the author of this list had to include it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisteiner
I apologise if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say, but if that is indeed the case, then you really needed to word it all much better.
I also think that if you are talking about amazing JRPGs you should listen to two of the most important people in Final Fantasy. I also forgot to mention that Uematsu's favourite game is FFIX. Not just the sound track.
Sure, my personal opinion is uninfluenced by that but it does mean FFIX should be shown more respect than it does.
I wouldnt agree putting Phantasy Star IV instead of Phantasy Star II but a good list nonetheless.
Commenting on FFIX, I agree that it didn't risk anything or push the limit in any development direction. However, I would argue it's the most well rounded game in the series, and could make it on an essentials list as a definitive example of an RPG whose parts are all proportionately adequate and sum up to an amazing whole.
The list was good though, I think it was well put together and covered most of the games that would need to be covered, although I agree there were a few that shouldn't have been.
At the same time, assuming Kurt Kalata is not Japanese, I think it's inappropriate for Western gamers to suggest what the essentials of Japanese RPGs are. For example, FFVI isn't anywhere near the top ranked games over there, yet in America it has a cult following in the RPG community. The opposite is true of Final Fantasy III. Part of the problem is that Americans are so opinionated on Final Fantasy, yet we were only exposed to half of the first six games, until Anthology. So while I personally think it's a great list, I'm sure the people who actually make these games, the culture from which its perspective is rooted in, and the audience it is targeted to would have very different opinions than we do.
The article is obviously written for a Western audience, from a Western perspective. What the most popular Japanese RPGs are in Japan is pretty irrelevant.
And I never doubted that. I'm simply stating that, to me, it's inappropriate for a western critic to state what the essential japanese RPGs are. Not only because of the amount that we haven't played, but because in the end, all we can do is interpret these games in a vastly different manner than they are conceived, first with the localization, and secondly by the individual gamer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
I agree. Also, just because those games are on this particular list doesn't mean they're better than other games out there.. He didn't look at the games objectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
I fail to see why I can't have a valid critical opinion of something that wasn't made by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarAnd I never doubted that. I'm simply stating that, to me, it's inappropriate for a western critic to state what the essential japanese RPGs are. Not only because of the amount that we haven't played, but because in the end, all we can do is interpret these games in a vastly different manner than they are conceived, first with the localization, and secondly by the individual gamer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
So, by that argument, Hollywood writers and actors are the only people who can pass valid judgement on movies?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
I think he means that only Japanese people have valid opinions on Japanese RPGs, which is still crap.
Had it been composed by a Japanese critic, it would contain almost every DQ game (hell they may even find a way to put DQIX on the list) it would have FFIV, VII, and maybe X then the rest of the games would be RPGs no one has ever heard of...
I may have misinterpret your meaning Briene, but I feel he looked at the games pretty objectively. Its not often you see a "Best of" or "Essential" list and the writer makes it a point to talk about the games flaws.
A very good list. Many of those games are among my favorites too. I'm glad Skies of Arcadia found its way in there. About Phantasy Star...
I still want to play and finish both, but I guess a reason why Phantasy Star IV was chosen instead of II is the fact that II's gameplay is horribly outdated. You have to level-grind continuously to beat the game. I reached the first dungeon, but that was it for me >_< When I have much, much more time and nothing else to do I'll try it again, until then though, I'd rather play IV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreddz
I disagreed with pretty much everything he said but I liked his review of FFX :)
About FFIX and its place on the list—a few months ago I tried to find out why I liked it so much. I know what the problems are—the Sephiroth-lite villain, the used peasant and princess that fall in love, the weird ending, the limits that couldn’t carry over battles, the ability system that had players using old equipment to learn skills, probably other stuff I don’t even remember. I don’t even like the older games, so nostalgia isn’t a factor.
I eventually realized that my favorite part of the game are what I call the small character moments—little scenes not necessarily connected to the plot that show a side of a character. Scenes like Steiner getting lost in the city, Vivi and Dagger in Dali, Freya and Amarant’s conversations in Treno, Zidane hanging around Lindblum. Even things like the scenes with Tantalus and the Lindblum border guards. Some were ATEs, and others were in the main game. Individually, they aren’t important, but taken as a whole I thought they were a fantastic way to flesh out characters. It’s also more realistic, since most people learn about others by watching them do day-to-day things.
I guess all RPGs have scenes like this, but FFIX felt like it had significantly more, probably because of the ATEs. I don’t play enough RPGs to say if that is innovative, though it’s not something I see much in FFs. I don’t know if it should be on the list(really, does almost every modern FF need to be on it?), but it certainly puts it above run of the mill RPGS. It’s also something I would’ve loved to see it in XII, since I didn’t feel much connection with some of the main characters.
Yeah, those little scenes add depth to a character and there were very few of them in XII and most of them not voiced over :(
In the old days we didn't have voice acting, hell we were just happy that our characters had predetermined names; though it never stopped us from changing them. I had to walk 20 miles uphill, both ways, and in the snow to get to a gaming store to buy my games in cartridges. Remember cartridges? If the game didn't work you had to blow in them and it would take maybe 20 minutes to... Zzzz *dozes off* ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renmiri
Cartridges? Son I remember cassettes.
I remember charcoal drawings on cave walls so suck it.
I am pleased that Valkyrie Profile and Grandia were included in the Top 20. I was surprised to find that I had played every single game in the list except for Panzer Dragoon Saga, too.