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i don't understand why always the final boss isn't the strongest enemy you can find in the game. i prefer Vayne had 50 millions HP than just go to him and defeat him 10 minutes later. why not Yiazmat be the Final Boss. he comes, eats Vayne, and then you fight him:). "final boss" starts to lose its meaning. the same happened with ffX with braska's final aeon and Yu Yevon with 99999 hp in total. this is not even fair. just like stealing from a kid. Sin and the dark aeons was much more harder.
Or FFVII and the WEAPONS, or FFX-2 and Angra Mainryu and Trema. Optional bosses that are more powerful than the last boss aren't exactly new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias_the_Belias
I agree that it's a shame that the final bosses don't equate to even remotely hard anymore. I remember back in the day when the final bosses were the toughest of the tough and fighting them was epic. Now it's just a small fly swatting between me and a final cut scene.
lets see...
FF7 weapons
FF8 omega weapon
FF9 ozma
FF10 Monster arena
FF10-2 Trema and angra manyu
FF12 Yiazmat and omega mark 12
I think FF 10 is really the only bad one. One or two super bosses other than the final boss isn't too bad, but FF 10 is way too much.
My guess if the final boss was harder than optional superbosses, a lot of casual players would get frustrated and quit playing the game. The optional bosses are there mainly for the more dedicated players who want not just to beat the game but want more of a challenge.
^ and for that reason I feel they should always be necessary. The first entry had Warmech, the second had many optional bosses in the final dungeon, V had omega and shinryuu, it's a tradition.
One of the main concerns I had for XII after playing the demo was that they weren't going to be able to make the boss battles as cinematic or intense as the last few games... While Vayne is almost pathetically easy compared to much of the latter hunts, I was more disappointed with it just being a few boring battles interrupted by a few interesting cut scenes. It was kinda cool how they had him change at the end though...
B = V!!!
I still wish there was a way to make the final boss more epic. It shouldn't be too hard to implement a way where beating the uber bosses makes the final boss more of a challenge. SO2 did it, I don't see why anyone else hasn't thought about doing it. At least it would fix balancing issues.
Like how FF7 makes safer sephy have mre health is you have level 99 characters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Can't put it any better than this really.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG-57
Agreed in full. Having optional super-bosses, means you can complete the game with a reasonable challenge, getting the story to a close and seeing how it all ends. Having the optional super-bosses lets you then take the characters and their abilities closer to their limits, exploring the game further and enjoying a greater challenge while wrapping up the side-quests and sub-plots. It's kind of like adding replay value before you actually replay the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shattered DreamerCan't put it any better than this really.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG-57
Really I think the optional boss challenge thing is just stupid. I don't want to have to FIND the challenge in the game, I want to just have some when I play it. It's hardly epic fighting the most powerful enemy in all of existence.....who is just a giant dragon that has nothing to do with anything and just exists for you to beat to get a stupid reward. Where as the ultimate evil that will destroy the world and that you've spent the past 40+ hours working to get to can be 3 shotted and is an utter joke. Hardly a fair trade off as I see it.
But for a gamer who wants to complete the game without hair-pulling frustration or umpteen hours of :skull::skull::skull::skull:-tastic level grinding, the final boss usually does pose a fairly healthy challenge. FFVII was the first RPG I ever played, and the final bosses were tremendously difficult the first time through. As soon as the game-makers start tweaking the difficulty to favour obsessive completion-freaks who see "all characters at level 99" as a fun challenge rather than a frightful bore, they'll start to lose a lot of less hard-core gamers who'd otherwise love the game through and through.
I found Vayne to be pretty challenging myself. Probably amongst the most challenging final bosses in the series. Perhaps I wasn't as levelled as I could've been because I decided to do the Sky Fortress Bahamut before completing all the hunts and side quests and so on. So I could've potentially had better equipment and levels but I don't think he would've been a walkover even had I done those things.
I suppose the reason why things like Yiazmat and Ozma exist is because the developers want to give the more hardcore gamers a more substantial challenge without making the main boss so difficult that your average gamer couldn't manage it. I know I'd get frustrated pretty quickly if I had to fight Ozma at the end of FFIX.
Fighting all the WEAPON in VII as the last boss, one by one o.O
Diamond was easy, just had to keep health up. Ultimate was hard in Mideel, as chances are, you would have one severely underleveled character, but the optional ones are easy. Sapphire got owned.Now, imagine having to fight Emerald and Ruby as last bosses...that would drive me to madness.
FF always needs that "Extra challenge", to give those that are willing, something more.
Final Boss never gives me strong connotations, I get more excited and afraid of the endgame uber bosses... Guess thats how it is nowadays.
What's a real shame here is that the first time you face the final boss, sure it's difficult enough, but then when you enhance your stats even more to take on an optional boss, the final one becomes piss-easy. There should be some sort of system that changes the final boss's difficulty and stats depending on your own.
Well... in FFVII, the final boss gets harder as your team's level increases; and in FFVIII, that happens for all the fights in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword
And in FFT, the boss fights stay at a fixed level while the random encounters stay commensurate with your party's levels.
...and he still can be killed in one round...Quote:
Originally Posted by Big DWell... in FFVII, the final boss gets harder as your team's level increases; and in FFVIII, that happens for all the fights in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword
Yeah I know. Hence the reason I am mentioning it here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Big DWell... in FFVII, the final boss gets harder as your team's level increases; and in FFVIII, that happens for all the fights in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword
ok i agree that optional super bosses can make the game more challenging. still why the final boss continue to be the strongest. even if i reach all my characters level 99 he would be more than a challenge. if you kill all the strong monsters the only one you can continue to fight is the final boss. i don't want to kill it in 2 minutes (included vids).hope the next one will be better in that area(only that area. the game as a hole is great).does anyone know when the new game will come out?????thanks!!!!!!!
I just want one modern FF game where I'm not ridiculously over-leveled by the time I reach the boss when I didn't even do the optional sidequests. It doesn't have to be the hardest thing out there, but at least make it a challenge.
I agree. The final boss of XII was too easy. You could just hit him once, then turn all your gambits off and heal and he'd get to HP critical by himself. From there it's just a few more attacks and hes toast. As for making the final boss have 50 million HP instead of an optional boss, that's ludicrous. Most people would not want to to a mandatory fight that lasted around 6-8 hours. I do agree that the final boss should be more difficult but not to that extent. I like really hard optional bosses, they give me more to do after I beat the game. What I do is make a new save file before I fight every optional boss so I can fight them whenever.
Yup. Trying fighting Chaos in FF1 without at least leveling up to anywhere from level 27 to 30. Or even trying to get to him for that matter :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000X
The final bosses are easy compared to optional bosses because they're meant to be hard at the level you would be at from just following the storyline, and not doing any major level grinding or sidequests. Optional bosses are meant to be hard at a level if you DO decide to level grind and do sidequests.
But because of all the fun sidequests and extras, the final bosses do usually wind up being a joke. Then again, its only us hardcore FF fans who do ALL the sidequests and ALL the level grinding. A good percentage of FF gamers are those who just want to do the main storyline, take on the mediocre challenge of the final boss at reasonable character levels, and not be bothered with the countless hours of level grinding.
I remember being surprised at the lack of difficulty in the final battle. I think that Square Enix should design more depth to these battles from both a gameplay and a storyline standpoint.
A level scaling or gameplay scaling scenario sounds good, too. I believe that Star Ocean: Second Impact did this with its final boss, Indelacio, by giving him two forms.
^Yeah, he becomes about ten times harder. And it wasn't like he was easy before.
I hardly did any sidequests so as a result my best equipment was whatever I could buy and my main party was only in the 40s. So Vayne actually took quite a few tries, a pretty hectic battle.
Oh Chaos....I was level 60 when I fought him and he was still a legitimate challenge. Oh the good ol' days. I think what Square Enix's thought process is, the more stages to a boss fight, the harder it is. They are focusing too much on how many stages the fight has instead of how hard the stages are. A 3-stage fight should not be incredibly easy for the first two then somewhat difficult the third. It should start out as somewhat difficult and then get harder each time. I mean, look at the final boss of FFIX, it was pretty difficult the first stage, then it got way harder. It did for me at least, but I may have been a level or two under what I should have been.
In my opinion Vayne was a step in the right direction. Sure if you're level 60 or above the fight get's pretty easy, but at level 45 (a likely level if you don't do sidequests before fighting him) he's no pushover. Which is more then a lot of final bosses can say. I probably could've been Ulti, Seph, and Kuja without prior sidequesting with little trouble.
In FFXII your going to either going to find Sidequest monsters early for fighting them at a low level, or have trouble with Vayne for being a low level, or powerlevel, but that would make anything easy :P
I agree with Boko here, I felt Vayne was a step in the right direction. At least he could take a few rounds against your party even if you have Zodiac Spear and the whole party was lv.99. He certainly couldn't be wiped out in one round like the Final Aeon, Sephiroth, or even Kefka. You don't even need max stats or levels to accomplish this feat in those titles. A few select spells and abilities easily accomplished this in their respected games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Granted, I'm with everyone suggesting the Star Ocean 2 approach of allowing you the option of making the final boss the hardest boss in the game. I even feel the best way to accomplish this is to make the criteria be simply killing the optional uber boss.
I don't mind the old uber bosses of old but they have gotten ridiculous as of late (XII being one of the worst offenders I might add). In the first couple of games the optional bosses were random encounters like WarMech or Iron Giant. Most of the bosses previously didn't require high level grinding just good strategy and fundamentals.
I think it went down the wrong path once the games started creating special items and abilities specifically for killing the uber monsters. KotR, Invincibility items, Legendary weapons that break damage limits... Whatever happened to working with what you had? I don't mind the tradition of uber bosses but I can't be bothered anymore to battle them. I would rather have the game be challenging overall than have it be a massive cakewalk except for one optional asshole created specifically to give me something I felt should be in the rest of the game. :rolleyes2
This. I plan to complete all of the side quests eventually, but if Vayne had been as difficult as Yiazmat, I'd have been rather annoyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG-57
I too think Vayne was a step in the right direction. Heck, I even lost to him once on lv 55, because he was so quick to use his special attacks. He was certainly more challenging than Kefka, Sephiroth and Ultimecia. I never beat X (got to BFA and then quit), but I remember Necron.
Oh yes, Necron is possibly the hardest Final Boss of the after-VII FFs. First time I faced him I lost 7 times in a row. Because of his damned Grand Cross and Neutron Ring. He's not superhard and with some preparation the battle can be pretty even, but there's no super quick way to beat Necron or Vayne.
Personally, I wish SE went back to the pre-VI days. Chaos, Cloud of Darkness, Zeromus and NeoExDeath were great challenges without being frustrating. It took preparation and some skill to beat them, not just the superuberabilities. (Though for Zeromus this changed pretty much in IV DS)
And I'm also not agreeing with how the superbosses are the greatest challenge. What is a superboss nowadays? A random beast with billions of HP and supermoves that all in all goes for a boring battle.
I beat Yiazmat and I swear I'll never do it again. It was such a damn pain in the behind because it was so BORING. Attack, revive, attack, revive. Save. Repeat.
Omega and Shinryuu. Those were great superbosses. They didn't have plenty of HP (less than the Final Boss) and fighting them required some strategy. You had to work with your jobs to find the good combination to fight them on even ground unless you wanted to be wiped out. I remember stealing all those Dragon Lances to beat Shinryuu (cheap, I know :p ) or working to get Spellblade so I could beat Omega. They were challenging, a bit cheap maybe, but much more fun than any superboss after VI.
Here's my guess: FF XIII will have a rather weak Final Boss (something alike to Yu Yevon) and a superboss with 100 million HP or so that can only be beaten by having superabilities and weapons that do 99 999 damage.
I don't know why you guys think you NEED the legendary weapons ever in FFX. I beat Nemesis no problem without them, it just took forever. The only thing you need for Nemesis is Auto-Life and a lot of Ethers/Elixirs/Megalixirs. And no overdrives or he counters with Ultima.
As for Yiazmat, I thought the fight was really fun. I set my gambits up so they do very little work and I do most of the command-entering, but that's just how I like to play the game.
I do agree that the final boss of X was way too easy, but the second form of the final aeon was pretty hard.
Kuja and Deathwing were easy, I can solo them with Garnet, but Necron gave me some real trouble. I was very satisfied with the final fight of IX. I doubt I'll ever fight Ozma though.
And there's no quick way to beat Vayne because his last stage has no HP. It's a survival battle. You just have to survive until he goes into HP critical (which he does by himself) and then hit him a few times. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a good idea, they just could have made it harder to survive IMO.
Its funny cause I was actually thinking about Omega and Shinryuu of FFV when I made my post about how to do it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
Overall I completely agree with your post on this and this is basically what I was trying to get at. Especially how the quality of super bosses have been simplified in recent years.
I don't need them except to fulfill my inner completionist but I make it a point not to use them. Beyond that though, I still find it rather sad that the final boss can be taken out in a single hit if you want to. That just really cheapens the experience for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus>Yiazmat
My problem with Yiazmat is that he's boring to fight. When it comes down to it, its just a 6 hour endurance match. The game even gives you plenty of options to remove the fear of death. I started battling him a year ago and gave up out of boredom rather than frustration. That, to me, just says that you messed up somewhere.Quote:
As for Yiazmat, I thought the fight was really fun. I set my gambits up so they do very little work and I do most of the command-entering, but that's just how I like to play the game.
I'd rather have a fight that was more about challenge and a simple mistake could cost you everything (like Omega from FFV). The funny thing is that XII provided this countless times with some of the Mark Hunts and Esper battles yet Yiazmat and Omega XIII are rather disappointing "endurance matches". The whole strategy is to just outlast the other.
Ozma is hard for only two reasons:Quote:
Kuja and Deathwing were easy, I can solo them with Garnet, but Necron gave me some real trouble. I was very satisfied with the final fight of IX. I doubt I'll ever fight Ozma though.
1) There is no defense against the Mini status he can inflict
2) Meteor
He's more about luck than skill. I still hope to beat someday. Perhaps when I get around to replaying IX again. :cool:
Actually, the Undying does have HP. He's said to have about 65,000. Beyond that, I agree that they should have upped the damage of his attacks. Bubble does put a damper on things. Hell, just chaining some of his abilities quickly could have been fun. Especially when he starts using the Palings.Quote:
And there's no quick way to beat Vayne because his last stage has no HP. It's a survival battle. You just have to survive until he goes into HP critical (which he does by himself) and then hit him a few times. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a good idea, they just could have made it harder to survive IMO.
His HP is more like 220,000.
I found the battle to be decently challenging, but then I was level 48, didn't have bubble or bravery and had weapons with 90-100 attack power. I suspect if I had kept up with the hunts I probably would have trounced him.
Messed up somewhere? What do you mean? I don't like my gambits doing all the work for me, I just have them to refresh buffs and attack automatically. I set healing ones if I can't get to healing fast enough but that's it. I do most of the work and that's what made Yiazmat fun for me. I know people who set up a bunch of gambits and just sit there and watch Yiazmat go down with no interference. That would be really boring and that's why I do almost the exact opposite of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And there's no protection for mini in IX? Crazy, I totally thought there was but I never went into any kind of status attacks or protection. The only thing I always protect against is Death.
I believe that Ultimecia and Necron in VIII can still give you a challenge I remember losing frequently to necron when I first started IX, well I was 10 then so that's probably why, but I don't think Ozma's that hard either because I had beat him on my second try. With XII I agree he can be far too easy I beat him on my second try on my first playthrough, and now I'm trying to complete a lot of sidequests so he'll probably be very easy to beat, most of the later hunts are harder than him. Maybe someone should implement some kind of way to increase the level of the final boss as you get stronger if you so choose or a third option that the final boss will be the toughest when you reach Lvl 99.
I manually control my party as well and play on Active mode. Like you, I only use Gambits for buffs, emergency healing and some pre-strategy and beyond that its all me baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus>YiazmatMessed up somewhere? What do you mean? I don't like my gambits doing all the work for me, I just have them to refresh buffs and attack automatically. I set healing ones if I can't get to healing fast enough but that's it. I do most of the work and that's what made Yiazmat fun for me. I know people who set up a bunch of gambits and just sit there and watch Yiazmat go down with no interference. That would be really boring and that's why I do almost the exact opposite of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
The problem here is that Yiazmat has so much damn hp that it takes hours to kill him and since his strategy only has a few minor changes you end up repeating the same actions over and over again for hours... That to me is tedious and not fun. The game is practically telling you to just set up your gambits to play themselves and go out and watch a movie. Yiazmat was fun the first few hours but after awhile the whole thing seemed tedious and boring and when that happens, you did something wrong. This is coming from a guy who actually enjoys grinding for crying out loud.
I don't mind having to battle for awhile if its intense but after a few hours, even the most disastrous attacks he pulls feel routine. Throw in the fact you can leave in the middle of the fight and restore your health (and sanity) and I feel the bosses threat level is significantly depleted. The Shadow Seer was an intense battle, the King Behemoth was an intense battle. Yiazmat felt like a chore...
No there isn't and believe me, it does matter, as mini takes out the usefulness of your physical fighters and allows most of his spells to one shot you. Its pretty annoying. I probably could be Ozma if I wasn't hell bent on stealing his rare items and just focused on killing him. Using Quina would also probably help. :rolleyes2Quote:
And there's no protection for mini in IX? Crazy, I totally thought there was but I never went into any kind of status attacks or protection. The only thing I always protect against is Death.