theres too much proof....especially the freakin ending cutscene....and ummm....yeah just...just lettin ya all know....thats a fact
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theres too much proof....especially the freakin ending cutscene....and ummm....yeah just...just lettin ya all know....thats a fact
for the love of god, plz go and play with serapy/Future esthar.. and dont make a thread like this.. again!!..
Im getting so bored of R=U=Z=S=big black guy
what he/she said..Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
whycome people keep sayin that even though its been dismissed by the developers?
sure it sounds true and is actualy more interesting than the real storyline
but facts is facts
Indeed... Square say that sorceresses have normal human lifespans; this is canonical info from the Ultimania guidebook. Ultimecia lives "many generations" in the future, to quote the game, so unless she's using Secret Longevity Magic or somesuch, there's no realistic way for the two to be the same person.
The game definitely plays with the risk of Rinoa 'turning evil' like some sorceresses before her; she's afraid of becoming "the world's enemy" like Ultimecia. She also knows that Ultimecia will one day inherit her powers, several generations along down the line. In that way, Rinoa and Ultimecia are 'the same' as each other, though they're not actually the same person.
You don't even need the Ultimania guide to prove that Rinoa is not Ultimecia.
Ok, if it were true, Rinoa likely wouldn't know if she was Ultimecia, but Ultimecia would definately know she is Rinoa. Ultimecia tries to kill Rinoa at the end of disc 1. If Ultimecia is Rinoa, killing herself in the past would negate her existence in the future and her whole plan for time compression and consuming all of the pieces of the Great Hyne would be shot. If Ultimecia were Rinoa, she wouldn't try to kill herself. End of story.
I think that the game could have taken an interesting plot twist if the story developers and writers had taken it that way, but, alas, they did not, and several facts from the Ultimania disprove any notion of Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person.
Ultimecia has very little backstory. I wonder if clarifying and elaborating on her, as a character, would slowly eliminate this theory?
I swear, you are my hero for disproving this. I am going to quote this every single time I see a new R=U thread come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
Nah, this is true sh*t, a friend of my cousin told me about it...
You aren't trolling us, are you D:Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceOfTime
Unfortunately, the "she wouldn't kill herself" thing has been presented before, and is generally discounted by an "Ultimecia would do anything 'cause she's completely nuts". Logic doesn't usually come into these threads, which is why I simply directed him to the "read before posting" thread.
Aerith's Knight: I'm a "he". ;)
There's something about evidence you need to know.
If the counter-evidence over-weighs the evidence by a million then the evidence really doesn't matter.
I say, if Ultimecia was sane enough to feel a threat to her own existance then she's sane enough to know not to kill herself.Quote:
Unfortunately, the "she wouldn't kill herself" thing has been presented before, and is generally discounted by an "Ultimecia would do anything 'cause she's completely nuts". Logic doesn't usually come into these threads, which is why I simply directed him to the "read before posting" thread.
Aerith's Knight: I'm a "he".
It's not like with Sephiroth, X-Death, Zeromus or Kefka where they all want to destroy the world knowing they're going with it. Granted it could be argued that Sephiroth and Kefka were under the delusions that even if the planets were destroyed they would live because they acheived god status by the point of the planets destruction (Personally, I think they'd destroy the world wether or not they gained immortal power because they -are- insane), but either way, Ultimecia wanted to compress time, not blow up the world and destroy her own existance. Her whole deal is to stop her own death via SeeD, not to do world takeover.
Her goals were for self-preservation not worldly destruction. (And yeah, you can get the whole "OMG TIME COMPRESSION WOULD DESTROY THE WORLD IN TIME" but I'm talking about the kind of world destruction where she -PURPOSELY- makes it so the ENTIRE planet CEASES to exist without taking TIME or her life into consideration.)
I imagine that the compression of past, present, and future would screw around with causality so much that negating one's own existence in such a manner would not be possible and thus not a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
Yeah, we don't actually know for sure how temporal mechanics work in FFVIII's world - just as we don't know how they work in our world. It's entirely possible that Ultimecia's free to change the past as much as she likes, without risking her own existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!I imagine that the compression of past, present, and future would screw around with causality so much that negating one's own existence in such a manner would not be possible and thus not a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
Like Skyblade pointed out, Ultimecia's attempts to kill herself and Squall etc. are usually explained away by assuming that Ultimecia, despite being Rinoa, was so far removed from Rinoa mentally that they had essentially different identities and Ultimecia would have no recollection of her past. Of course this makes one wonder why bother with the theory to begin with, but there you are.
The most damning evidence against the theory is the complete lack of good evidence in favour it, both in the game and in the Ultimania.
Indeed... since the Ultimanias are kind of like the "tell-all exposes" of the FF world, a fundamental issue like "R=U" would have been included if it were true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Besides, I've always maintained that the R=U theory would completely defeat the purpose of FFVIII's love story. Squall and Rinoa's journey together, their falling in love and the immense hurdles they faced - what does that matter if she's going to forget him, 'turn evil', and eventually get killed by her old friends? Kind makes a mockery of the game's happy ending.
Squall is Headmaster Cid... It's a fact
THE JACKEL
Yes, and the hot dogs in the cafeteria are Zell
Hee. Zell is an Ouroborus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominus Experse
That's not the most damning evidence against the R = U theory; the most damning evidence against the theory is, in fact, explictly stated in Ultimania, itself. According to that very guide, Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born (if that doesn't directly dispel the R = U myth, then I don't know what does). As mentioned earlier, Ultimania states that a Sorceress' lifespan is equivalent to that of any other human, and Ultimecia lives too far into the future for any of the other in-game characters (Rinoa included) to exist in that time period (even the in-game script, itself, confirms that Ultimecia lives "generations into the future"). How many Sorceresses have inherited Rinoa's powers between Rinoa and Ultimecia is not explicitly stated, but since Ultimania explicitly stated that Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born, it is also impossible for Ultimecia to have directly been the successor to Rinoa. So common sense tells me that there has been at least one Sorceress between the death of Rinoa and the birth of Ultimecia. It is very possible that the Sorceress who inherited Rinoa's powers may have passed her powers to Ultimecia, but that possibility is still open to speculation. Nonetheless, that is the closest possible link between Rinoa and Ultimecia. It is also possible for Rinoa to pass on her Sorceress powers to someone else without dying (as shown by the fact that Rinoa, herself, inherited her powers from Edea, who was still alive after the fact, and is still alive at the end of the game), but that is subject to a completely different debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
One could argue that Rinoa had been sealed in the same manner that Adel was (as was the case for Rinoa, herself, for a very brief period during the game) for decades, or even centuries, but I don't see how that is possible, given the fact that only Esthar has that technology, and the fact that there are politics into play that prevent that from happening, as Esthar's President at the time of the game is not only widely speculated to be the father of her Knight, but could also end up being her father-in-law at any point post-game.
I'm perfectly aware of the contents of the Ultimania, which you don't seem to be yourself. The Ultimania doesn't explicitly state that Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born. It says that a sorceress lifespan is that of a regular human beings. All this proves 100% is that Rinoa couldn't have lived to Ultimecia's era through natural means alone, but the game itself provides a way to get around this, namely the Sorceress Memorial seal. Rinoa could have, in theory, been sealed down, driven mad, and woken up in the future as essentially Ultimecia.
The only problem with this theory is that it is not hinted at by anything in the game or in the Ultimania. There's just given no reason whatsoever to assume that this is going to happen, which is why I said the most damning evidence is the lack of evidence, because that's what the Ultimania basically did. It wasn't really about it disproving the theory on a technical level full stop, it was about disproving the only thing which could have allowed Rinoa to become Ultimecia without any extra assumptions.
I stand corrected. I probably should have said "based on the information provided by Ultimania and the game" and "under normal circumstances", which is more accurate than what I let out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
The only way I can see Rinoa being sealed, driven mad, and woken up in the future as Ultimecia is if Esthar's sealing technology fell into the wrong hands, or if, for instance, Laguna is overthrown by someone who wanted Rinoa off the face of the planet simply because she's a Sorceress, and Rinoa got sealed, not to be released until sometime after Squall's death (whether Squall would be killed in another attempt at rescuing Rinoa, die of natural causes, or be driven into suicide in that situation would be open to speculation), because for as long as Laguna has breath in his body, I don't see how he would allow anyone, within his own country or not, to do such a thing to Rinoa when her Knight just happens to be his son (then again, his clumsy nature may cause him to do just that). I didn't see the dialogue, myself, but have heard that at some point in-game, Edea mentions to Rinoa that the very key to a Sorceress' mental state is her Knight. Well, needless to say, the key to driving Rinoa mad would be eliminating Squall.
Bringing temporal mechanics into play really just confuses the issue. Then again, basing a plot almost entirely around time compression without even remotely attempting to explain the manner in which time functions tends to create gaping wide freaking huge plot holes, so the confusion is there regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big DYeah, we don't actually know for sure how temporal mechanics work in FFVIII's world - just as we don't know how they work in our world. It's entirely possible that Ultimecia's free to change the past as much as she likes, without risking her own existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!I imagine that the compression of past, present, and future would screw around with causality so much that negating one's own existence in such a manner would not be possible and thus not a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
Remember that this game is not meant to be simple and straight, the designers want the audience to create interpretations. This game is more like art.
In other words, the game is not very clear, so it becomes open interpretation for everybody.
This principle is one of the reasons why FF8 was such a good game.
If you e-mail SquareEnix, asking them about the the truth of whether R is U, they won't answer you, simply because they care about that principle. If they have answered you, it would ruin the game in some sense.
There's an evidence that Ultimecia is Rinoa.
There's an evidence that Ultimecia is not Rinoa.
See what I mean? You can believe what you want, it's meant to be like that.
I personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia in a multi-dimension world.
Excuse me for a sec. Where does anything in game say that sealing a sorceress, as with what happened to Adel and it was going to happen to Rinoa before Squall rescued her, preserves their life indefinitely? Adel's war was only 17 years before the game, well within the average human lifespan. I don't remember anything either in game or in Ultimania stating that the seals have life-preserving side-effects.
The thing is, for an interpretation to be valid in any meaningful sense, it needs to be sufficiently backed up by the game itself. Multiple interpretations are fine as long as sound evidence is given in each case. R=U doesn't given sound evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
That's a very good point actually. I thought there seemed to be a pretty straightforward argument which indicates it, but decided to check to see if the tutorial had anything to say, which it did:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Adel's Tomb
A high-tech device intended for weakening and confining a sorceress' power.
Shot into the moon's orbit after going through a special sealing process. Used
to confine Sorceress Adel. It is the main cause of radio interference on the
planet.
No mention of it sustaining life. I figured that they wanted to avoid her death because it could mean her powers being passed on to someone else, which would sorta imply it sustains life (or else what'd the point be?), but perhaps not. If all it did was suppress her powers though, would they really just leave her to die of old age? What's the point of keeping her alive for that long?
Still, your point still demonstrates that this other possible R=U scenario rests upon more assumptions.
You're assuming that they had the ability to kill her. Remember, Laguna and friends only got her into the tomb by trickery, they didn't force her. They trick her into the tomb, and shoot her into space. Had they tried to fight her head on, they would've been slaughtered. Leaving her to die of old age in space seems a much safer option. Remember, to seal her powers they had to keep her in orbit and have a seal so strong that it kept up worldwide signal interference from orbit. That is a lot of power being spent, just to keep hers in check. Killing her was hardly an option, until Squall and company showed up.
Indeed - and we know for certain that she wasn't kept completely inert by the containment device. She was at least partly conscious, as shown by her 'messages' in the worldwide interference - "I am still alive" and so forth. That adds to the idea that time - and thus, age - were passing normally for her in containment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
THIS MAN SPEAKETH THE TRUTH! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9
Well, I agree they wouldn't have been able to take her head on, but if they had her sealed up it seems to me that they could have easily just blown up the whole thing or launched her into the sun or something rather than keep her in orbit? =P Could her powers really have prevented that from killing her? Doubtful, considering Edea could have been killed by a single bullet. But then why did they keep her there in the first place? Was Laguna perhaps vehemently against the death penalty?
I guess it boils down to the fact that her containment in space was primarily a plot necessity rather than something very well thought out. But if we just assume that they had a good reason for keeping her in orbit, then I agree, there is no real indication that the sealing prevents aging entirely. Well, the argument is still there that they perhaps put her in orbit and sealed her because they didn't want her to die because that might mean her powers being passed on, but we actually have no idea if that was why they did it in the first place, so doesn't amount to that strong an argument.
Hm, will have to put that in the next update of the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ over at GameFAQs. Will put your name in the credits Skyblade, if you don't mind (Big D's already there).
Whether or not Laguna was against the death penalty seems to be of little relevance as to why he kept Adel in orbit. Laguna may be clumsy, but he's nowhere near as moronic as he comes across to be. He knows full well that a Sorceress must be free of all her powers before she can die, and can only do so by passing them onto a potential sorceress candidate (hence, one of the reasons Adel captured Ellone in the first place, possibly because she was paranoid that someone had a plot to assassinate her, a paranoia that is normally held by ANY dictator, even real life dictators such as Hitler). With a Sorceress as treacherous and tyrannical as Adel, Laguna was extremely fearful at the time of the consequences of Adel dying and passing her powers onto someone, especially if that someone happened to be Ellone (considering her own innate powers). He basically felt that it was safer to keep Adel in orbit, in suspended animation, and under constant surveillance, instead of killing her off and risking her powers being transfered to someone else, and thereby running the risk of the new Sorceress being just as vile (I have reason to believe that Adel's tyrannical rule over Esthar is the primary reason for Sorceresses being feared by the masses). Even if she was launched to the sun or blown up, her powers would eventually find a way to a new Sorceress. With Adel's powers in Rinoa's hands, those fears should remain unfounded for as long as Squall lives and stays by her side (remember, he alone holds the key to Rinoa's sanity).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
I'd be honored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
The problem with the "don't kill her so her powers aren't passed to another person" thing is that it doesn't really make much sense. The game has a couple points indicating that a sorceress can indeed die without passing on her powers, yet the game itself says that they cannot. If a sorceress could live forever by not passing on her powers, Adel would never look for a successor: I cannot see her giving up immortality. I figure it is far more likely that at the point a sorceress dies, whether killed or if she dies of old age, her powers pass on to another person. If a sorceress has a particular person nearby, she likely has some control over where her powers go, but, if not, they will head for the nearest or the most suitable host. So even if Adel died in outer space, her powers would eventually wind up making their way to another person, though, since we have little indication of how old Adel was, it may be 50-70 years before that becomes an issue.
Do we ever actually learn the source of Edea's powers? She said that she was a sorceress since she was a child, but I don't remember any mention being made of a sorceress passing her powers to Edea at that time. She did receive Ultimecia's powers, but she was fully grown then.
And I think that the sorceresses are feared because they are insanely powerful. They possess extraordinary abilities, abilities so strong that without a knight keeping them sane, they'll be overwhelmed by those abilities and go insane. A creature of nearly unlimited magical potential and questionable sanity is enough to inspire paranoia in anyone.
Part of the reason we don't know who Edea initially inherited her powers from is because it's quite possible that absolutely none of the characters in the entire game's storyline know who she initially inherited them from; in fact, Edea, herself, may not know who she inherited her powers from. It is even stated in the tutorial that the exact number of Sorceresses currently in existence at any time is unknown, due to the fact that many of them keep their powers completely hidden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Thanks, I just wanted to make sure I was remembering that correctly.
Depends on the nature of 'existence' for a sorceress who hasn't surrendered her powers... it's possible the energy simply keeps them clinging to life, barely in the land of the living and more like a tortured zombie. Rather than granting immortality, it forces them to remain in the world of the living, despite every protest from their mind and body. Just a theory, of course, but it'd explain things reasonably well. Furthermore, when Ultimecia's finally defeated by the crew, she staggers over to Edea and barely struggles to declare that she "can't... disappear yet". Clearly on the brink of death, but unwilling or unable to simply go to an inn and rest up to regain her strength. If my highly speculative theory's correct, Ultimecia's powers were forcing her to remain alive until she could give them away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
According to the legend, humans were created as the tools of Hyne, after all. Consider a really :skull::skull::skull::skull:ty analogy: A sorceress is a tool of Hyne, say a gardening tool like a pair of clippers. Those clippers have become broken and worn beyond any hope of being repaired, but what's left of them can be held together indefinitely by duct tape - in this case, Hyne's Sorceress Power duct tape.
Um, that just supports what I was saying. If they wanted to avoid her Apowers being passed on, they'd want to keep her alive at all costs if this were true, which would sorta imply that the seal was keeping her alive indefinitely (or else it would be a pretty bad seal). Actually though, I guess it's possible that the seal could contain her powers within itself even if Adel died inside it, which is perhaps more plausible since the only thing we know for sure is that it seals her powers while she's alive. It's the fact that the seals nature is clearly ambiguous in regards to prevention of death which is important in terms of R=U though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Big D's theory there is what me and the other authors of the FAQ determined to be the most plausible reconciliation of the apparent contradiction found within even the Ultimania itself (which says both that sorceresses have human lifespan and that they can't die while they have their powers). Basically the sorceress powers would prevent them from dying, so they'd be stuck in the dying moment in great agony. Their bodies would naturally then produce a intense urge to give away the powers, which is what we see happen to Ultimecia. She doesn't want to die, but as she approaches Edea the burden becomes to big to bear.
I think there's some vague allusion to Jenova going on here actually, since the tutorial states that sorceresses prefer to avoid spreading their powers too thin. So the powers live on forever and gradually become more gathered until ideally one person would have all the powers (and be like a new Hyne I guess). The powers can't simply disappear, but won't just fly off into space, so the subject is kept alive until a successor is found. I imagine it's just instincts kicking in. Exceptionally strong sorceresses might be able to fight it off for a while and keep her powers for some time even after being killed, but eventually the natural drive to give up the powers would take over entirely, maintaining the succession of witches.
So even if Adel could technically stay alive even as dead, it'd hardly be a pleasant type of existence and couldn't last that long anyway, except possibly if you were completely isolated from everyone else. Makes you wonder if that's what they were doing to Adel; keeping her powers trapped in the seal while letting Adel spend countless years kept alive in a tormented state of death without release. Pretty grotesque :D
Since you brought up a Jenova analogy, I'll use another FFVII metaphor: The Lifestream. When a person dies, their life energy is recycled through the planet, until it gives birth to a new entity. Similarly, when a sorceress dies, their powers are recycled to a new vessel (albeit one already alive). It's not a case of the powers keeping the sorceress alive, it's a case of as soon as the sorceress dies, her powers, like her life energy, are recycled into the system automatically. A sorceress can choose to give up her powers before death, but can not die without passing her powers on, for death itself will pass the powers on. When Edea meets Ultimecia, she is saying that she is looking for someone to pass her powers on to so that she can "die in peace". Perhaps death without passing on ones powers first is possible, but not very pleasant.
In any event, since the preservation of life by not passing on powers is a direct result of being a Sorceress, I would say that the Ultimania stating that a Sorceress's lifespan is the same as a normal person's rules that possibility out.
Also, there is no need to keep Adel alive indefinitely. Laguna knew full well that Adel was not the only sorceress: He knew Edea personally after all, and never sought out to seal her away. He only tried to seal away Rinoa because Ultimecia had the ability to possess her. Adel was the one that they were fighting, and it seems to me that the seal was just to stop the threat from Adel herself, not to stop the power of the sorceress in general.
Well, that's a fine theory, but has no backing in the game. In the game we never see the sorceress powers being recycled in such a way, we only see dying sorceresses passing on their powers before dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I disagree. Same lifespan only implies aging and susceptibility to death by old age, but doesn't contradict the fact that to fully die (even by old age) they have to give up their powers. And as I said above, that's all we ever see. Sorceresses who have been critically wounded giving away their powers and then dying. We never see a sorceress dying and then some time later someone becoming a sorceress completely randomly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Obviously they weren't trying to stop sorceresses in general, but they probably thought it would be better if no one inherited Adel's powers, because of how extremely powerful they were. Thus it would make perfect sense to keep her alive indefinitely assuming that they couldn't kill her without the powers being passed on.Quote:
Also, there is no need to keep Adel alive indefinitely. Laguna knew full well that Adel was not the only sorceress: He knew Edea personally after all, and never sought out to seal her away. He only tried to seal away Rinoa because Ultimecia had the ability to possess her. Adel was the one that they were fighting, and it seems to me that the seal was just to stop the threat from Adel herself, not to stop the power of the sorceress in general.
i heart you for saying this...i believe the same thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
Adel had spent quite some time, and started more than a few armed conflicts, in her attempt to find a successor - clearly, she wanted a successor who'd be as powerful and iron-fisted as herself. I guess the notion of 'power corrupts' applies: her powers corrupted her mind and body into something monstrous, so the same would likely happen to whoever inherited those powers, if they were led in the right direction. It'd be a wise and logical move to thwart Adel's greatest wish by preventing her passing on her powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
omg some people still debate on this topic?
2 or 3 years ago a squaresoft staff said before that they were very happy that many fans still dig this game but I recall they reply on this topic and said that theres no way that rinoa could be ultimecia...
This point has often been argued against the R=U theory without any proper address to sound logic; if time compression is involved, then the 'normalcy' of anything, including its temporal characteristics, are subject to absolute change. This is the beginning point of the destruction of this argument against the R=U theory, and hence it is no longer a valid point in argumentation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
Additionally, the circumstances that involve Rinoa's escape of mortality fit beautifully into the motivations and personality of Ultimecia, something that is never fully explained by the DIRECT plot. So not only does the R=U theory offer a wonderful extra dimension to the game, it also ties up ALL loose ends of the plot and takes its rightful place as the greatest fictional creation within the last 30-50 years.
One reason that is often cited for keeping her in Orbit is to prevent the transfer of her sorcery to another individual, thus continuing the cycle of 'witches.' This actually ties up the reasoning behind launching her in orbit and prevents this action from decaying into a mere 'plot necessity.' Now, there are some problems with this theory, but it is overall quite clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Excellent analysis; I know that Ultimecia is Rinoa not in any other dimension or world, but in the exact same world. This is because since they are the same person, they originated in the exact same dimension and world, with one simply being the past of the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceOfTime
That FAQ is flawed; the reasoning behind saying that it is 'highly unlikely' that Ultimecia is Rinoa is incorrect, as I argue in the post "R=U Correction." It should be changed to 'it is still unconfirmed whether or not Rinoa is Ultimecia, although there is STRONG evidence, combined with a sensible plot analysis of reasonable assumptions, that she is.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Vost, please don't post multiple times in a row. Use the Edit button to add information to a previously made post.
Got it, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
On the keeping Adel alive business: can they actually kill her without releasing her from that seal? I mean, that seal managed to prevent the vacuum of space, along with the lack of oxygen, from killing her. If this is true, then he didn't kill her because, in removing the seal, there was the probability that she could free herself and return.
Also, the lack of a suitable successor to her power is perfectly plausible bet. I am almost 100% sure that a sorceress' power is transferred whether the sorceress wants it or not, based on how Rinoa received Edea's power. And, considering the consequences if they got it wrong, then perhaps it would be best to leave her in space indefinitely. One less sorceress to worry about.
R=U is a bit far fetched for me. If you put two pictures of them next to each other, there is some resemblance. But, for them to be the same person, they have to look nearly identical. You cannot find such a photo. You may be able to find a transition of the two faces on Youtube, but that is an optical trick. Find me two photos next to each other, and we'll talk.
Squall being Laguna's son is heavily implied throughout the game via Ward and Kiros' NPC dialogue, Raine's backstory, the Moombas mistaking you for him and so on.
Rinoa being Ultimecia is not implied at all. Ultimecia's hatred and evil is mentioned, and obviously she must have inherited Rinoa's powers (via someone else!) in her own timeline, but if Ultimecia is Rinoa because of that, then Rinoa is also Adel and Edea, because she inherited their powers. What this theory then says is that Ultimecia is Rinoa, Adel and Edea, as well as the other eleven Sorceresses you pwn on the way through time compression, plus plen-tee of offscreen characters.
Basically, the fact that one gets heavily implied whereas the other is only generated by vague allusion is all the evidence I need to say no, I don't think Ultimecia is Rinoa. If they intended us to work that out, they would've filled the game with obvious clues like they did with Squall and Laguna.
... hic! The problem is that the story didn't state much about what exact physical laws did the game use, what would happen if (name effects here) happen, for example (assuming R=U is true): would Ultimecia automatically disappear if she successfully killed Rinoa without TC? ... hic! Who knows? Would Ulti disappear if she killed Rinoa during Time Compression? Probably not because everything was present at the same time (humans/witches life spans won't matter). Did this game show you that it has a time loop? Maybe Ultimecia won't disappear WHEN she killed Rinoa, BUT in the next time loop, would Ultimecia inevitably disappear? Probably. In the game, the party killed Ulti and she then disappeared. What does that mean? Will that affect Rinoa at some point in the next time loop? Maybe? ... hic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
... hic! The problem with time compression is that it can mess things up, which is why it's very dangerous.
There are things to prove that R=U is not true, but you can't ignore that there are things that vailds R=U, whether they sound make sense or not.
If the game was more accurate, things like this would have never happened in the first place. Explain why Enix didn't add better information to the game ... hic!?
Each FF8 version ... hic! (various languages) don't exactly state same dialogues, does that mean that they are not sufficient enough prove something?
Here are my reasons why Rinoa is not Ultimecia:
1) There is resemblance, but they are clearly not the same person (find two photos next to each other that disproves this, not anything with transition effects).
2) Their personalities are completely different. Rinoa is bubbly & warm, happy to live in the moment. Ultimecia is dark & broody & depressed & so scared of losing something she'd rather be alone (sounds more like Squall than anybody else). From a literary perspective, there is no way such a change would occur. Why would they (being Square) build up a character in such a way, when we are supposed to infer that she completely changes?
3) Many people who propose they are the same person suggest that the reason Rinoa became evil was because she lost Squall. So: why does she constantly try to kill him? Both as Edea and herself. Why does she want to be completely alone? Surely she'd want to be with Squall.
4) This is tied into 3. Proponents of this theory also say that Rinoa's line in the Ragnarok, which she says this moment stayed still forever, is linked to Ultimecia saying time doesn't stay still. Same argument as 3. Why choose to compress time so only she could exist if she could rather be with Squall? Surely, if she was so depressed over Squall, she'd rather die than be alone for all eternity.
5) Ultimecia can go back into time and possess different sorceresses. Again, if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why didn't she possess herself to protect Squall.
6) Odine says that Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. Seeing that this would be substantially longer than one's average lifespan, it would be unusual if Rinoa was a) alive & b) very young. And looking different at the same time.
Do I need to continue? You can argue that this theory is possible. & yes, it is possible. It is also possible that every event in the game is a dream that Squall/Quistis/Matron/the sick nurse was having, just as it is possible that we're all actually living in the Matrix. Is it probable/plausible. I don't think so.
It is possible that Rinoa is Ultimecia but not propable. If Rinoa was Ultimecia and Squall died (Somehow...) and she went crazy and got Ultimecia's powers, her personality could have changed to match Squall's from thinking about him so much.
Against that, if she was thinking about him so much, why would she try to kill him in the future of TC? He looked just like she would have remembered him, fur lined short jacket and all. Wouldn't seeing him again give her some semblance of sanity back?
Another thing, Ultimecia summoned Griever in the final battle and he turned into some ugly purple and red lion, Rinoa, evil or not, would not want to desecrate Squall's memory by turning his favorite piece of jewelry into a weapon, especially considering that Squall gave her a ring with Griever's likeness on it.
Ultimecia looks like Rinoa, but since they never do a CG movie with her, she also looks like every other pale skinned, long haired, busty brunette in the game, given the PS1's unfortunate lack of picture quality.
Adel could have been killed without giving up her powers. Think The Covenant. It's the body that breaks down, not the powers. If they would have shot the seal into the sun, the seal would have held on long enough to get very close and by the time it gives way, it's too late for Adel. Shell, Protect, Reflect. None of them would have mattered.
And Cid is not Squall. Cid was a grown man and married to Edea by the time Ultimecia gave her powers to Matron. Squall was like 7 when that happened and still running around in his Charlie Brown T-Shirt.
Some people put forward the idea that Rinoa forgot about the people she loved, by using a GF. Perhaps even by using Squall's soul as a GF, namely Griever. They maintain that her whole motivation for turning evil and greedy and time-compressey could be due to missing him, wanting to be with him, but no longer remembering why she wants all these things.
As a theory it's interesting, though not backed up by anything more than the most tangentially circumstantial evidence in the game.
We actually do see Ultimecia in FMV once in the game - during the ending, when Squall's reality is crumbling and he's hallucinating. There's a sequence where Seifer, Rinoa and Ultimecia's faces all get superimposed, one flashing past the other. For a moment, it seems to show Rinoa morphing into Ultimecia. However, that (to me) just symbolises Squall's fears of Rinoa "becoming" Ultimecia by becoming an enemy to the world, or by passing her powers onto future generations who'd eventually give them to Ultimecia.
One of the Final Fantasy 8 graphic designers have created one blank character model, he duplicated it into so many models for the FF8 characters, meaning that each duplicated model is exact the same. Other FF8 designers then finish modelling and rendering each blank model for each character. In the end, this is how each character's face size is the same, the eyes size look the same, etc, go figures. So concluding that looking for a photo to match Ulitimecia's face is not sufficient enough to prove something.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
However, there's something you have to consider:
Why does Zell have tattoos on his face, smiliar to Ultimecia and Adel? While all the other characters don't have tattoos. The game didn't explain much about this question, but lets move on to the next question:
Why does Rinoa have white wings and Ultimecia have black wings? Why do it have to be Rinoa, not someone else? Rinoa having White Wing, things from white wing and black wing are similar to each other. E.g. Squall wanting to be Rinoa's knight.
White wing represents good.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
Black wing represents evil.
If Rinoa had white wing, which explains why Rinoa was always lovable towards Squall, even Squall's acts were appalling (not necessary) towards Rinoa, Rinoa always have loved him no matter what happen. Rinoa has done "good" things, she NEVER has done any bad thing, it's almost as if she's a perfect person.
If Rinoa had black wing, she will be ALWAYS evil (not lovable) towards Squall and other people. She has done "bad" things to people, even Rinoa herself. Suicide is evil (just in case if Ultimecia killed Rinoa). The goals of black wing are always evil.
Have you seen the Time Compression tunnel? It was filled with "black" wings. It's like black wing is having a war with white wing. White wing revived Squall at the end, and so on.
It's either:Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
1) Rinoa is actually a descendant of Ultimecia. Leading her to have the same powers as Ultimecia.
2) Time Compression. It causes timelines to compress, multiplying the past timeline (the past) between another timeline (the future), making the timespan of Rinoa longer.
Disproving R=U is basically the same thing as proving R is not U, because both have flaws.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
It's possible from reality, but I was talking about it in terms of story-telling. Why would the storywriters make Rinoa an almost polar opposite of Ultimecia if we are supposed to infer that Rinoa is in fact Ultimecia.Quote:
Originally Posted by XCGriever
Yes, one cannot disprove R=U 100%, but one can also not disprove that we're all living in the Matrix 100%. The fact remains that Ultimecia has some resemblance to Rinoa; she doesn't look like Rinoa. The time gap between the events is problematic, seeing that sorceresses do not have eternal life (this is stated in Ultimania I think. But in-game, Adel is looking for a successor - this suggests that she is going to die). Personality is polar opposite. Development of accent? Name change (why bother changing your name)?
I suppose GF could answer some of those questions. But, at the end of the day, the visual appearance of the two is not the same. & GF doesn't change appearances. The characters resemble polar opposites in the game, and I think it's a huge leap of faith to declare that the game-makers believed that Rinoa is Ultimecia, because if they had, they would have made it clearer to us.
If you personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia, that's fantastic for you. But, it is similar to someone believing that Squall leaves Rinoa for Ellone/Edea/Laguna/anyone after the game ends. It is possible, there is no clear way to disprove it, but it is not backed up by anything in the game.
For example,Quote:
I suppose GF could answer some of those questions. But, at the end of the day, the visual appearance of the two is not the same. & GF doesn't change appearances.
Eden looks like a garden, definitely. How did it happen? Where did it come from ? Why has it to be based on garden? Who possessed who out of his/her mind to create Eden? I think White Wing was involved because Squall and his party used Eden to hurt Ultimecia (Black Wing).
Let's compare that to what Ultimecia has done; she possessed Rinoa's mind and created Griever GF.
Ultimecia hating SeeDs and gardens, and then there's a White Wing Eden GF thing. Coincidence?
Yes, what's your point? It's not like I'm expecting you to believe R=U. Futher Esthar doesn't even believe in R=U.Quote:
The characters resemble polar opposites in the game, and I think it's a huge leap of faith to declare that the game-makers believed that Rinoa is Ultimecia, because if they had, they would have made it clearer to us.
I'm guessing you haven't read the R=U theory? Because there are things in the theory that are backed up by the game. Some of them may sound nonsense but they are really there, which means that we can't just ignore them, they exist for a reason.Quote:
If you personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia, that's fantastic for you. But, it is similar to someone believing that Squall leaves Rinoa for Ellone/Edea/Laguna/anyone after the game ends. It is possible, there is no clear way to disprove it, but it is not backed up by anything in the game.
and by the way, it's not just the dialogues that prove something, but there are also other things like images, animations and music for more hints.
EDIT--
It's possible that Ultimecia was reincarnated by Rinoa.
The game doesn't tell us when Ultimecia's time is, so...
There's also a lot of things about the theory that aren't backed up by the game or is based on fairly flimsy 'facts.' And it's quite possible to ignore it if you selectively pick bits and pieces to prove a certain theory by picking only bits of evidence that supports a theory and not the whole game itself. They sound like nonsense because they are.
Also, the game clearly states that Ultimecia lives 'many generations' in the future as well as the fact that sorceresses only have normal human lifespans, which is pretty damning as far as the theory goes.
When I say R=U in my own case, it doesn't mean that they are exactly the same person, but more like powers.
Then why did Square add them into the game, even if they are nonsense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath
I personally think the tattoo thing is a coincidence. They probably gave Ultimecia tattoos to make her look evil, and they probably gave Zell tattoos to a) make him look cool and b) because they thought getting tattoos was a very Zell thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
R=U proves why people shouldn't dig to deep into things.
Square has announced several things because its clear THEY DIDN'T WANT ANYONE believing R=U.
These facts alone demolish R=U
1. Sorcesses have average lifespan
2. Time was never compressed fully, if it had been it would've been game over.
Here is a picture of Ultimecia from the ending FMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...time/00136.jpg\
And here is a photo of Rinoa from the ending FMV.
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...last/00016.jpg
Already, I can tell you that Rinoa's face is rounder and less angular than Ultimecia's face. Her nose is also softer and has a gentler curve than Ultimecia's sharp nose. The lips are similar, but again, Rinoa's are softer. Now, here are two more photos.
Ultimecia.
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...time/00137.jpg
Rinoa (I'm sorry about the size, but it needs to be large):
http://www.freewebs.com/nasajlassera...%20Rinoa03.jpg
Look at the eyes. Rinoa's eye shape is different to Ultimecia's. And of the utmost importance, Rinoa has dark BROWN eyes. Ultimecia has bright YELLOW eyes.
So, judging from these in-game FMV shots, Rinoa does not look like Ultimecia. Therefore, they cannot be the same person.
On a sidenote, I'd like to thank Final Fantasy Shrine - The Ultimate Final Fantasy Fansite for providing these photos (except for the ballroom dance one, I got that from somewhere else), and for asking me so politely to add this footnote.
Your joking right? Eye shape? Your judging them on EYE SHAPE? In that case does Ultimecia also equal Edea? Compare their character sets.
Sorry, did you read the whole post? I'm judging them on their entire faces. Can you really look at those 4 photos and say that they are all of the same person? Because, if they don't look the same, then it's going to be quite hard to prove Rinoa is Ultimecia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Hold on, you said different for a sec I read that as "same" and you where using that as proof. xD
Carry on :P
Nah, I only try prove things which have solid facts behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Probably, but I cannot imagine what was Enix thinking when they added his tattoos, surely they could be confusing? Enix has stated that Zell's tattoo is nothing special, anyways.Quote:
I personally think the tattoo thing is a coincidence. They probably gave Ultimecia tattoos to make her look evil, and they probably gave Zell tattoos to a) make him look cool and b) because they thought getting tattoos was a very Zell thing to do.
Several things? Not exactly. The guide only stated one thing (life span) which significantly kills the R=U theory but that's still not enough because they didn't explain more and they don't want to. Why? You tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
R=U is not heavily relied on the 'Oh no, their life span is still the same as a human' fact, anyways.
2) The FF8 game portrayed the story of FF8. The only thing it would have been game over is that if you fail the game. Is there proof that the world of FF8 wasn't fully compressed? There are so many things that have never displayed in the game, so yeah.
((( this is the important bit! )))
In the compressed world, Squall travelled to the past; saw his little self being and told Matron whatever the hell he wanted to say (the garden ideas, etc).
So listen, if voices (like that example of what he said to Matron) and figures (like that example of Squall seeing his little self being and Matron) can affect a timeline from between the past and the future. Then what about other things like merging? e.g. merging powers or bodies. This can boost significance to the Rinoa and Ultimecia relationship. Will that happen after the game? Maybe.
I'm still not sure about the human life span thing though, I can't believe in saying this but Albert Einstein once said that if you start travelling via a spaceship AT a very fast light speed from Earth to millions of light away and then go back to Earth, your life span may BE STILL the same as normal BUT the people left on the Earth have aged faster (dramatically) than you have.
Ultimecia has powers like this. When she starts a Time Compression, does it change the light speed? Probably, but will Ultimecia be affected by the changed speed? No? This means that Ultimecia has aged just like a normal person and went through so many generations due to her powers (time travel). What I'm saying is that the human life span concept isn't important in such situations, because with Ultimecia power, you will age 1 year older and the world will age like 1,000 years older.
This gets more ridiculous with each post.
Yes, and if you look at my post near the bottom of page 4 (the one with the pictures), there's another fact that kills the theory, i.e. they don't look alike. And, if they don't look alike, they aren't the same person. There is no way one can get around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
First off, I do not believe R=U in the slightest. However, some of what I'm going to say is against the anti-R=U arguments, because they are rather lame.
1) A complete personality change means they aren't the same? What? The whole Idea of the R=U is that she does change over time. A complete personality flip can be a great trick to use when writing, so using that as a basis to disprove this theory is lame.
2) Over time people change, so not looking the same is hardly a good reason. To the extent of the differences between Rinoa and Ultimecia there is almost a solid argument however, but due to the time between FF VIII's beginning, and Ultimecias time, many things could have happened to change appearance, especially since somehow she survived that long.
The visual differences coupled with the Ultimania guide saying that sorceresses have a normal lifespan is a pretty strong argument. Ultimecia does not look much older than Rinoa. Even if Rinoa fell into a time hole (or anything you want to bring her into Ultimecia's time), at a normal rate of aging, such changes would not occur. Especially when their eyes are completely different colours!
And a complete personality switch can be used, but normally, the writer will build up this personality change without an event. Do you think any half-decent writer would write a story with a sunny, bubbly, optimistic character, who lives in the moment, and then, without any warning or build-up, turn her into the complete opposite: depressed, pessimistic, so afraid of losing somthing that she's to scared to live, a loner.
Regardless, the burden of proof is not on me. It is on those who are wanting to prove R=U. What I'll say is that there are 3 questions that must be addressed before one can believe R=U, and these must be addressed from material in the game, or related to the game (Ultimania).
1) If Rinoa is Ultimecia, why do they not look the same? (And to say that a lot of time has passed is not a reason, because then Rinoa would be old, grey and frail).
2) How can Rinoa be Ultimecia when Ultimecia lives many generations in the future, and Rinoa, even as a sorceress has a normal lifespan?
3) How did Rinoa's personality do a complete flip? (Again, one cannot say: "Oh, many things could have happened. This discussion is based on a game, and therefore, all evidence must come from the game).
As for appearance, as I said, any number of things could have happened. It is a somewhat solid argument, but hardly a concrete one like just about everything else that disproves it, like you're number 2.
As for a complete flip, look at how much time has passed. Under the assumption it was true, a lot ofwas bound to happen.
1) Squall dieing, as obviously he wasn't alive in the future, and Rinoa was. (Under the stupid assumtion it was true) so there was the loss of a loved one involved.
2) As directly stated in the game, the discrimination and hate of sorceresses, which Rinoa was. AFter living through all that Ultimecia has, the whole Wars and such, that is definately bound to change a person.
Again, I don't believe R=U, but in the cases of Appearance and Personality, they just seem like weak arguments to use against it, especially considering the other evidence that damns the theory.
I loathe the R=U theory and disagree with is wholeheartedly, but I can still answer a couple of the questions you pose there:)The Ultimania explains that prolonged use of dark magic can physically distort a person - it's the reason Adel was huge and off-colour. It's also why Edea had odd eyes, long fingers and veiny growths on her temples. Those disappeared after she lost her powers and Ultimecia's possession. So in theory, if Rinoa turned 'evil' she might end up looking a bit different.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
A popular 'theory' is that she turned bitter after losing Squall, and perhaps forgot her past because of GF usage. According to Edea, having a knight helps to keep a sorceress honest and good or something. But except for Ultimecia being associated with the GF Griever, there's nothing that even remotely supports these hypotheses about Ultimecia.Quote:
And a complete personality switch can be used, but normally, the writer will build up this personality change without an event. Do you think any half-decent writer would write a story with a sunny, bubbly, optimistic character, who lives in the moment, and then, without any warning or build-up, turn her into the complete opposite: depressed, pessimistic, so afraid of losing somthing that she's to scared to live, a loner.
Maybe we should start a thread on why R <> U, using these questions! I wasn't aware of the effects of the DARK SIDE. But, using the example of evil Edea and good Edea, their faces are both the same shape. And Rinoa and Ultimecia's faces are not the same shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big DI loathe the R=U theory and disagree with is wholeheartedly, but I can still answer a couple of the questions you pose there:)The Ultimania explains that prolonged use of dark magic can physically distort a person - it's the reason Adel was huge and off-colour. It's also why Edea had odd eyes, long fingers and veiny growths on her temples. Those disappeared after she lost her powers and Ultimecia's possession. So in theory, if Rinoa turned 'evil' she might end up looking a bit different.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
Exactly! And the GF Griever association is tenuous at best. From the game, it is more likely that Squall will not die of anything short of old age, seeing that he managed to defeat everything in his path, including TWO almighty sorceresses (Adel and Ultimecia).Quote:
A popular 'theory' is that she turned bitter after losing Squall, and perhaps forgot her past because of GF usage. According to Edea, having a knight helps to keep a sorceress honest and good or something. But except for Ultimecia being associated with the GF Griever, there's nothing that even remotely supports these hypotheses about Ultimecia.Quote:
And a complete personality switch can be used, but normally, the writer will build up this personality change without an event. Do you think any half-decent writer would write a story with a sunny, bubbly, optimistic character, who lives in the moment, and then, without any warning or build-up, turn her into the complete opposite: depressed, pessimistic, so afraid of losing somthing that she's to scared to live, a loner.
Saying that a lot of things might have happened is not an argument. You have to state what the things are and the evidence that would lead to these things occuring. Otherwise, it is just an unsubstantiated statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Also, these arguments are not supposed to stand up by themselves. For an argument to hold true, it needs quite a lot of supporting evidence. These are just additional reasons that make it less likely that U = R.
Well, if you look at Big D's posts, as well as my mention of why Ultimecia would be the way she was as Rinoa, they actually are backed by the UMG and what happens in the game, as it does state what happened to Ultimecia. :p
Serapy stated, "The FFVIII game tells the FFVIII story."
If thats the way you want to play.
1. Where in the game does it mention time is fully compressed?
2. Where in the game is it hinted Rinoa got super pissed off after Squall died.
3. Where is it hinted that Rinoa could survive long enough to get to Ultimecia's time
The correct answers are, never, never, and never. There's nothing in the FFVIII GAME (using your own logic) that says R=U, without being dependent on some other theory.
Which is why this thread should be closed before mind-poison fools a poor unsuspecting lurker :spin:
And to show my reasoning that the game never mentions the plan being "attack her while time is compressed."
The plan is this.Quote:
Ellone will have to send Rinoa and Ultimecia
inside another sorceress she knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up
to Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll use ze time compression
magic. We will see some influence here. I don't know vat kind of
influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off
from ze past. Rinoa will come back to this world. Ultimecia also goes
back to her own world. Vat would be left is ze time compressed world.
Past, present future will all get mixed together. You will keep moving
through ze time compression toward ze future. Once you're out of ze
time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world. It's all up to you
after zat.
1. Time Compression starts.
2. Ellone cuts off Ultimecia.
3. Party moves through compression while they still can.
4. Compression ends, party is now in future, they can kill Ulti.
Exactly! Yes, Rinoa could have become super-evil and twisted because Squall died. But, nowhere in the game is it hinted, suggested or explicitly stated that Squall dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Same with the appearance. There are reasons why Rinoa's face looks like Ultimecia's, such as the dark magic. But, judging by the fact that Rinoa and Ultimecia are not very far apart age-wise, it seems unlikely that dark magic would have been able to change her to the extent that her face no longer looks alike.
So, R=U followers can go forth and bring out reasons why it is true, but at the end of the day, there is no evidence to back it up.
1) Ultimania explicitly states that sorceresses have a normal lifespan. The game explicitly states that Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. Then, how does Rinoa manage to
a) be alive in the future &
b) look, at most, 10 years older than she currently is.
2) Rinoa in the game is a upbeat, light-hearted, friendly girl. Ultimecia is an absolute loner. What evidence IN THE GAME or RELEVANT SUPPORTING MATERIALS suggests that such a change would occur?
3) Rinoa and Ultimecia do not look the same. Even with the constant use of dark magic, it would seem unlikely that Rinoa's entire facial structure would change to become Ultimecia's. Especially seeing that the age difference is not that large, and therefore Rinoa would not have been casting dark magic for a large portion of her life.
So, I'd like these questions answered. And I'd like them answered using in-game evidence, or from a relevant supporting document, such as Ultimania. Speculation does not count.
None whatsoever, with the possible exception of that scene where Rinoa frets about the possibility that she might somehow become "the world's enemy", and Squall silently vows that he'll be her knight even if that happens. But that's just idle speculation by a pair of frightened teenagers who don't know what the future's going to bring.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
Rinoa had a vision about the future, and that was her dream of Squall getting lost and her running around the world trying to find him. This eventually happens, when Squall's isolated from the others during their escape from the future, though compressed time, at the game's end. She never had any dreams or visions about becoming a world-destroying evil force, nor was there a glimmer of recognition or familiarity when she came face-to-face with Ultimecia.To be fair, it's hard to say just how old Ultimecia might be. She's got a rather impressive figure, from what we can see of it (which is quite a lot really), but that doesn't necessarily mean she's youthful, merely well-preserved. Smooth skin could even be a side-effect, one of the mutations triggered by magic abuse. She's got completely grey hair, after all. Adel's proof that sorceresses can indeed mutate into something hideously inhuman, given enough time and dark magic. But again, nothing overtly suggests that anything similar happening to Rinoa.Quote:
3) Rinoa and Ultimecia do not look the same. Even with the constant use of dark magic, it would seem unlikely that Rinoa's entire facial structure would change to become Ultimecia's. Especially seeing that the age difference is not that large, and therefore Rinoa would not have been casting dark magic for a large portion of her life.
Off the topic, she also has no eyebrows. I wonder why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
Personally, I had comparing character designs. They didn't feel like giving her eyebrows. Many times people in FF's aren't designed for a particular reason. Why does Maria of FFII insist on wearing a Bikini? Even when travelling through winter Tundras? Because the game designers wanted a girl in a Bikini.
It's obvious that the game hasn't told us the whole story, otherwise FF8 would be the most huge game ever because details based on time lines and time travel are huge! Logically speaking, I think Enix only picked certain events from the story and demonstrated them in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
<-PAST----------PRESENT----------FUTURE->
Pretty much the game has represented the most events from the present timeline and only a few events from the past and the future. A few events, indeed, which is why it's questionable for us to wonder what did actually happen after and before these "a few events" to understand the plot correctly.
Same question as where in the game did it mention time wasn't fully compressed? It's possible that Ultimecia has used more than one TC.Quote:
If thats the way you want to play.
1. Where in the game does it mention time is fully compressed?
Consider this, if the story is HUGE (such as ones that we haven't seen from the game), do you really think that an individual (e.g. Ultimecia) just happen to use TC for the first time and it amazingly failed?
Ooh, that's kinda debating, I think. Squall did appear at the end of the game, it's just a bit awkward to see the last shot of Squall smiling all just in 3 seconds. As for Rinoa getting pissed off, no I don't think she was like that. Like I said before, Rinoa is on White Wing, there's no way for her to get pissed off. She became sad at the time when Squall laying on the ground. Also just because you are on White Wing and getting pissed off doesn't mean you will automatically become Black Wing. You will need more powerful powers in order to become Black Wing.Quote:
2. Where in the game is it hinted Rinoa got super pissed off after Squall died.
Like others said, the game didn't explicitly state that Rinoa has survived to Ultimecia's time and the guide also stated that human span is just the same, blah blah.Quote:
3. Where is it hinted that Rinoa could survive long enough to get to Ultimecia's time
Closing this thread all for taking interest in FF8? What a shame. Honestly, if you feel tired of trying to disprove theories, you may as well leave them alone.Quote:
Which is why this thread should be closed before mind-poison fools a poor unsuspecting lurker :spin:
As for appearance, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if Rinoa and Ultimecia look the same. Most of the characters in FF8 use the same size (eyes, fingers, etc.)
This just proves the ignorance needed to believe a theory like this. When I try and do something stated by Square, you tell me that if it ain't in the game, I can't use it in this debate. But you can say "Not all the story was told"? No, it doesn't work like that, sorry bub.Quote:
Originally Posted by SerapyIt's obvious that the game hasn't told us the whole story, otherwise FF8 would be the most huge game ever because details based on time lines and time travel are huge! Logically speaking, I think Enix only picked certain events from the story and demonstrated them in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
<-PAST----------PRESENT----------FUTURE->
Are you implying that the game was 100% clear? That was the whole point. In general, it doesn't have anything to do with R=U.
Never but a game having plot holes and inconsistency doesn't give someone permission to make things up~
EDIT: You still managed to make a very large post without showing any part of dialogue in the game that even supports R=U a little bit.
Dialogue? Dialogues are very helpful as they can prove something but sometimes they can be problematic because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
1) Not everybody in FF8 make dialogues.
2) Not enough details.
3) Misconceptions due to many reasons: writers being lazy, specific FF8 charcaters made lies or the dialogues are not exactly the same in each language version.
If one of the reasons above occur, where does that lead us to? Judgements of the images / story from the game.
Are you serious? Dialogue is the main way a video game creator has to give his story to the audience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
The definition of "brink" is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimecia
Brink - the limit or point of which something begins or occurs
So, it seems to me that Ulti is saying Time Compression only began, not that it was completed.
Oh god, PuPu with the knock-out punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPuQuote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
The definition of "brink" is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimecia
Brink - the limit or point of which something begins or occurs
So, it seems to me that Ulti is saying Time Compression only began, not that it was completed.
Hi five! *Hi fives*
Also, there's a reason why this game is called Final Fantasy 8. Fantasy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Yes, but was that the first TC she ever used?Quote:
The definition of "brink" is:
Brink - the limit or point of which something begins or occurs
So, it seems to me that Ulti is saying Time Compression only began, not that it was completed.
Actually if you really wanna get into fanboyism, Final Fantasy was named as such because at the time Square was going out of business and they assumed it would be their last project, thus they named it "Final Fantasy" as in "Our Final Fantasy". That still doesn't mean there isn't a direct storyline. Fantasy is also a genre of writing which has a storyline, but exists in a realm that it is impossible for the actions to have occurred in real life (thus making it different from fiction and needing its on genre). It doesn't mean, here's some stuff, now twist the storyline however you please.Quote:
Originally Posted by SerapyAlso, there's a reason why this game is called Final Fantasy 8. Fantasy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Yes, but was that the first TC she ever used?Quote:
The definition of "brink" is:
Brink - the limit or point of which something begins or occurs
So, it seems to me that Ulti is saying Time Compression only began, not that it was completed.
As for the that second part, that is pure speculation and is never even hinted.
Exactly. Fantasy = incomparable to real life = leads to many things, especially when it comes to time travel. FF8 just made it more mysterious than the other FF games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Squall and his party have travelled across generations (alot of years ahead of the present time) to fight Ultimecia. This is one of the future events.Quote:
As for the that second part, that is pure speculation and is never even hinted.
Years years years ago, the Great Hyne was born and then created Sorceresses. This is one of the past events.
Statistically (based on years and sorceresses), chances of TC happening for the first time (the one we saw from the game) are quite slim.
There is not enough information in Final Fantasy VIII to bring inferential statistics into this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
Anyway, when Ultimecia needed to cast Time Compression, she needed to cast it in 3 places in time. She was only able to reach the point furthest in the past through the use of Ellone. As the game states that the Junction Machine Ellone cannot go far enough back in time for the purpose of time compression, and that there is only one recorded person who can go back in time (Ellone), it is unlikely that any other sorceress could cast time compression.
And anyway, let's assume time compression had occured before. If it had, all events and people would be compressed into one unit of time. This means that there could be no movement through time by these people. Because thee could be no movement in time, this means that none of the events in Final Fantasy VIII could have occured. So, this assumption is found false under evidence, and must be rejected. Therefore, time compression has not EVER happened.
If we look at the Scan description of Ultimecia, it says:
"A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and taking power from all sorceresses."
If time compression was already completed, why would she still be "trying" to achieve it?
No your missing the point. Fantasy's have storylines. Storylines must be followed, and your disregarding it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SerapyExactly. Fantasy = incomparable to real life = leads to many things, especially when it comes to time travel. FF8 just made it more mysterious than the other FF games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Time Compression has never happened in the game. People can't live in a fully time compressed world. The game states it. Ultimecia tried to, but could only do it with Ellone (the game never states there is another Ellone in the past so saying there is one would be a whole new theory, theories can't exist of other theories), since no sorceress had ever had Ellone no Sorceress could even attempt Time Compression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
Again start using dialogue from the actual storyline, not theories upon thoeries.
The game did state some information about Hyne. The human race must have started since when, thousands of years ago? Take that into consideration and it would make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernovaThere is not enough information in Final Fantasy VIII to bring inferential statistics into this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
1,000 years and Ellone just happen to be the first person to have this "mysterious" power? I don't know but it doesn't seem right. I'm going to try to explain why and how Ultimecia chose Ellone:Quote:
Anyway, when Ultimecia needed to cast Time Compression, she needed to cast it in 3 places in time. She was only able to reach the point furthest in the past through the use of Ellone. As the game states that the Junction Machine Ellone cannot go far enough back in time for the purpose of time compression, and that there is only one recorded person who can go back in time (Ellone), it is unlikely that any other sorceress could cast time compression.
Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.
Squall and his friends were given birth, including Ellone and then came to the orphanage and being looked after by Matron.
Matron gains knowledge about these individuals, including Ellone.
((At this point, if Ellone knew that she has the special ability, then maybe that would explain why she left the orphanage mostly because of Matron having Ultimecia's powers.))
Later in the game, Matron was possessed by Ultimecia. Ultimecia reads her mind and all of sudden, she finds this special information about Ellone. That's when Ultimecia found out about Ellone and began looking for her.
What I'm saying is that if Ultimecia can find someone like Ellone, then the past Sorceresses with the equal powers as Ulti can do too.
Events would not have occured? Time Compression doesn't get rid of any event, it just simply combine everything into one (according to Dr Odine). The game didn't explictly state what would happen if Ultimecia successed her plan. And I don't think TC is permanent.Quote:
And anyway, let's assume time compression had occured before. If it had, all events and people would be compressed into one unit of time. This means that there could be no movement through time by these people. Because thee could be no movement in time, this means that none of the events in Final Fantasy VIII could have occured. So, this assumption is found false under evidence, and must be rejected. Therefore, time compression has not EVER happened.
Ultimecia did start Time Compression during near the end of the game. There are some evidences to support this: the FMV of TC demonstrated a tunnel of Time Compression which means that it has just began (also when you view the file name, it has a word of TC), the time loop and Squall and his party went into TC via JME so that they can travel to the future to fight Ultimecia (non-compressed time).Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
In the end, when Ultimecia become defeated. She began uncompressing time so that she can go back to the past and pass her powers onto Edea. At that exact point, what do you think what would happen if Ultimecia rejected giving her powers to any body?
This impact has created a time loop and it will repeat, mostly due to the Time Compression.
Sure, it may seem un-statistical for only one person to have this power, but the game never hinted there was a race of them, therefore any conjecture that there was is complete speculation and another theory of its own.
I am away that Compression was started, I said "Life can't live in a fully compressed world." The impact didn't create a loop, it actually created a Time Paradox, but that really is a conversation for another thread.
You are right. I'm guessing that the reason why the history of FF8 didn't state any information about this mysterious power from others (not Ellone) was because that it was quite uncommon. Ellone could be the first person to unravel her power publicly and that's how more people found out about her and her power. If Ultimecia has never targetted Matron in the first place, there's a chance that this Ellone drama thing would have never existed and nobody would have known that such power existed. I'm also guessing that in the past, Sorceresses have possessed specific people but fortunately, these possessed people didn't have any knowledge of anybody who may have the same power, the same one as Ellone, hench the power remained uncommon. Unlikely but who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Just saying that TC did happen in the game, to some degree, anyway.Quote:
I am away that Compression was started, I said "Life can't live in a fully compressed world." The impact didn't create a loop, it actually created a Time Paradox, but that really is a conversation for another thread.
I'm not quite sure about Time Paradox because they are not much of a difference towards Time Loop, but... hmm.
A Loop has a definite probability. I go back, stop my grandfather from dying, this makes something worse happen, so someone goes forward in time and stops me. A small loop in time is made from a defined origin, but it can exist.
A Paradox is different because it can't exist. Ex: I get a ball from someone in the past. This is the first time I ever got the ball. I go back, and give him the ball, and thats how he received it for the first time. Where did the ball come from? It has no defined origin and cannot exist.
Ultimecia giving her powers to Edea doesn't prove anything, other then the developers wanted to add something interesting in, but created a large paradox.
Good thing she's not Ultimecia then! Thanks for clearing that up.
Not at all, there isn't an inherent paradox there - Edea was already a sorceress, after all. She received her 'first' powers when she was a child, which could well mean that Ultimecia simply gave her a 'backup' copy of her own powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
However, there was new information was created by that piece of time travel, unless one assumes that Edea would have thought up the idea of Garden and SeeD without Ultimecia appearing before her.
id realy love to read some you you guys theories on Lost...
would be rather wacky
My friend once joked that the writers of Lost get their ideas by looking for the most outlandish, incomprehensible theories on the forums:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Marky Tee
wouldnt even surprise me
They actually took one idea from the forums, which was the hell part.
Some viewers thought the people in lost had already died and arrived in some sort of "hell" or "afterworld" where they got a chance to set things straight, and if they didnt, they'd pay for it.
This was beeing said in season 1, before you knew they had found the plane with the false bodies...anyway, long story short, lockes dad thinks its hell, and this idea was taken from the community.
Edit: Not gonna say anything about the whole R=U thing, I personally think its quite possible, at the same time as it isnt, but from my experience, backink up the theory is worse than thinking 9\11 was an inside job. People will just throw
I'd just like to ask..
Why is there always a R=U thread in the FFVIII forums shortly after someone closing another R=U thread? What's even worse is that this one seems to have coexisted with 2 R=U threads and still hasn't been grabbed.
Jesus.
R=/=U
This theory has been around for years and I'm pretty sure that every method has been taken to prove it. Why do you think that Squeenix basically told everyone R=/=U? Because they're trying to tell everyone to stop.. yet they never do.
Thats been said for ages, yet I have never seen a link or anything to prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
And dont tell me you read it in some
Kindly don't bypass the swear filter. Thanks! ~ Zeromus
lol, there's still threads like this? XD Geez, at least Future Esthar's was more entertaining. >.>
The evidence has been challenged and counterpointed. R=/=U; deal with it.
I'm sure the reason you get no links is because no one wants to spend the money on a japanese guide just to translate it and prove it wrong. I don't see why since 1999 that people would lie about the guide saying R=/=U though, but then again, I don't see why people still argue this theory, so to each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrizpyThats been said for ages, yet I have never seen a link or anything to prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
And dont tell me you read it in some
Kindly don't bypass the swear filter. Thanks! ~ Zeromus
If you'd like to buy it and see for youself, feel free, then please scan the page talking about sorceresses life spans and post it:
Buy Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania - Order Now!
why oh why wont square publish them in english?
this is the greatest injustice in history
Well that was suprising.
what was?
The human life span explanation is not enough to disprove R=U completely.Quote:
I'm sure the reason you get no links is because no one wants to spend the money on a japanese guide just to translate it and prove it wrong. I don't see why since 1999 that people would lie about the guide saying R=/=U though, but then again, I don't see why people still argue this theory, so to each his own.
If you'd like to buy it and see for youself, feel free, then please scan the page talking about sorceresses life spans and post it:
Consider:
These unanswered questions are the roots of the R=U theory.Quote:
1) Who really is Ultimecia?
2) What are her true motives for time compression?
3) What is the significance and meaning behind Ultimecia’s words (both when she is possessing Edea and when she is herself)?
4) What is the mystery behind the fact that Ultimecia extracted Griever from Squall’s mind?
5) Who really is Ellone and what is the explanation for her powers and her significance in the game?
6) Since Ultimecia has altered the past by interfering with Squall and Rinoa's time, what really would have happened if she had not attempted time compression?
The Ultimecian guide hasn't answered any of these question, either, so it's still incomplete whether R=U is true or false.
No, they didn't.Quote:
R=/=U
This theory has been around for years and I'm pretty sure that every method has been taken to prove it. Why do you think that Squeenix basically told everyone R=/=U? Because they're trying to tell everyone to stop.. yet they never do.
Who's Ultemecia?
Selina kyle.
That they never said the theory was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marky Tee
Not making any mention of the idea that R=U in the entire Ultimania amounts to Square saying that it ain't true. That's just common sense.
The whole notion of being able to exorcise the sorceress power (as Doctor Odine himself says in Disc3) disproves the theory totally, even the longevity debate. If Rinoa realised that she would someday become Ultimecia or not, I'm sure she would eventually exorcise her sorceress powers. And don't say it cannot be done because Edea went to Esthar so Odine could 'remove' her powers, and he said it could be done. How, who knows, as they never elaborate. But the point is it CAN be done, according to the game. There is never anything that says it cannot be done. I think the R=U theory is attractive as it adds a whole new dimension to the villain, but I think it is far more plausible that Ultimecia is in fact a descendant of Squall and Rinoa and therefore possesses the ring, Griever. On the other hand, that may not even be the case, she could have simply extracted the unknown GF from Squall's ring in battle, whether he is in the party or not. The game probably just takes the story from the assumption that he or Rinoa would be in the battle.
Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Period.
Thats just speculations, you cant say something like that and claim its proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Queen
Rinoa is Ultimecia because Adel's penis is four inches thick and two inches off the ground.
finaly some concrete proof
Look at Ultimecia's hair color guys. It's obvious she is Fujin.
Still not convinced when I read the guide last time. If they have definitely nailed R=U, there will be much less FF8 theories now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Honestly, if it wasn't common sense, we all WOULD have known who actually started the idea of R=U.
I personally like to think that Square themselves did it, just to give us something to talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SerapyStill not convinced when I read the guide last time. If they have definitely nailed R=U, there will be much less FF8 theories now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Honestly, if it wasn't common sense, we all WOULD have known who actually started the idea of R=U.
Ultimecia is Selphie, fact. Theres no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.
Yep, do you know how many player have thought of some connection when they have played Final Fantasy VIII for the first time back then? That's why nobody knows who initially started the idea of R=U due to the open-interpretation design and that's why Square doesn't want to spoil us (for example, not showing the whole world more details about the plot). The Ultimania Guide is merely an art book consisting of in-depth explanations about the FF8 magic, it's history, sorceresses, interviewers' talks and other misc stuff, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567I personally like to think that Square themselves did it, just to give us something to talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SerapyStill not convinced when I read the guide last time. If they have definitely nailed R=U, there will be much less FF8 theories now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Honestly, if it wasn't common sense, we all WOULD have known who actually started the idea of R=U.
Well that is what is said in the game, unlike the other so-called 'proof' I've seen in this thread, i.e. Squall somehow 'dying' or Rinoa living to 300 or being sealed in space after the end of the game. THAT is speculation. None of it is ever implied. Exorcising the sorceress power is clearly stated as an option in the game. Yes, Rinoa doing that IS speculation, but it is a far more believable theory than the living forever and losing all her friends going mad etc. because she somehow can't free herself of the sorceress power (which is untrue because she COULD free herself of it, and she would want to, I think, because Rinoa wasn't happy about being a sorceress. This is SAID SO in the game.)Quote:
Thats just speculations, you cant say something like that and claim its proof.
Of course its speculations, thats why its called a "theory"
No one has ever claimed it to be proof, they have said it backs up the theory.
Thread stater: It's Ultimecia.
Also, these threads are fun to read.
Edit: Fun to read, but exhausting for those who speculate this interesting topic of R=U vs. R=/=U.
Ultimecia is in fact Aeris who came through to the world of Final Fantasy VIII after she was
(SPOILER)killed by Sephiroth - don't tell anyone though
She wants to compress time so she can be a God like Sephiroth and battle him, because it would be fun.
And it is implied in the game because in VII, her Japanese name is transalated as Aerith, while in the English game it is Aeris, just like Ultimecia's Japanese translation is Arutimishia, but in the English game she's called Ultimecia.
This therefore completely disproves that R=U.
I can disprove what you said, as well.
How the flip can one character in one FF "dimension" to the other?
Most of the games are not connected, they just have a few re-occurances. Like Chocobos, and most of the magic.
Cid does it from game to game. There is in fact only one Cid, and every time he jumps from game to game he changes slightly. And he doesn't age either. It's all in this obscure website I'm not going to cite.Quote:
Originally Posted by MushroomZOMBIE
P.S. I'm not being serious. Just pretending to be.
where oh where is my dear kishi to do things to this thread :aimsad:
It's okay to discuss theories of R = U or R != U, but when people start claiming they have concrete proof that proves they have it all figured out is when it gets tiring. If there was proof that was that good, there still wouldn't be debates about this topic.
Actually, in my experience very few actually thought of R=U just after playing the game. Many are confused at Griever's appearance in the final battle, but rarely do they make the leap to R=U. Whenever I've seen new people claim to have thought of it themselves it's been blatantly obvious they were copying stuff they read on other websites.Quote:
Yep, do you know how many player have thought of some connection when they have played Final Fantasy VIII for the first time back then? That's why nobody knows who initially started the idea of R=U due to the open-interpretation design and that's why Square doesn't want to spoil us (for example, not showing the whole world more details about the plot). The Ultimania Guide is merely an art book consisting of in-depth explanations about the FF8 magic, it's history, sorceresses, interviewers' talks and other misc stuff, that's all.
But anyway, that's moot. I don't see how you can dismiss the Ultimania calling it "merely" a book consisting of in-depth explanations on many plot points, when that's entirely relevant to R=U. In addition, the Ultimania actually does give clear allusions to Ultimecia's background, so clearly one point of the guide was to help clarify Ultimecia's motives. And well, those allusions aren't towards R=U in the slightest.
In fact, not only does the Ultimania not mention the theory at all and rather allude to another idea, they actually also provide a crushing argument against the theory (the human lifespan fact). When you take into account that the game itself backs up very firmly what the Ultimania alludes to in a natural way (i.e. through all of Ultimecia's dialogue), R=U has only got a collection of vague hints, all of which can be interpreted naturally in other ways, none of which are remotely strong enough to make the theory plausible.
Put all that together and I think it's pretty clear that in the end, Square didn't intend R=U. At best they were considering it and one point but decided to drop it, leaving a couple of the vaguer hints. But let's face it; Final Fantasy is, besides FF7, not known for villains hidden in as much obscurity as R=U requires. And for FF7, they explained most of the details in the FF7 Ultimania anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jowy
Agree'd. Not only that, but I want to buy the FF8 Ultimania for Kishi to translate for us and smash this theory once and for all.
OBI WAN KISHI YOU'RE OUR ONLY HOPE!
The parts of the Ultimania relevant to R=U have already been translated you know...
Oh really? I've been trying to search for it but I've yet to be able to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Especially since there are many R=U theorists who say that the info against R=U doesn't exist in the Ultimania and that since no one links it there is no proof against it.
I have definitive proof that R = U! Look and weep, bitches!
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...irteen/RU1.gif
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...irteen/RU2.gif
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...irteen/RU3.gif
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...irteen/RU4.gif
*pelvic thrust*
... OMG THAT IS THE BEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN!Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
All the details can be found in the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ at Gamefaqs found here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-nessOh really? I've been trying to search for it but I've yet to be able to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Especially since there are many R=U theorists who say that the info against R=U doesn't exist in the Ultimania and that since no one links it there is no proof against it.
Final Fantasy VIII FAQs - Final Fantasy VIII Walkthroughs - Final Fantasy VIII Guides
Search for "Ultimania Information". We (the authors of that FAQ) specifically employed the help of someone who spoke Japanese to go through the Ultimania and translate those things which had a relevance to Ultimecia and sorceresses in general. The scans found in the FAQ will confirm what I've been saying so far, namely that the Ultimania is pretty much conclusive proof that Square didn't intend R=U.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
which specific FAQ is it found in?Quote:
All the details can be found in the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ at Gamefaqs found here:
Uh, the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ, like I said.
oh i read it as time/ultimania lol
could be why i couldnt find it :confused:
LanceOfTime is Ultimecia
The problem with all these claims is that they're wrong because they come at it at the wrong angle.
Rinoa can't be Ultimecia, but Ultimecia most certainly is Rinoa! :D
Squall=Griever ;)
Squall was rinoa's guardian and sacrificed himself to be the final summon to beat Sin who travelled dimension. She wanted time compression to prevent the Sin cycle form happening.
I cried aloud with mirth and merriment never realized how similar the sin and sorceress plot was.
fanfic, pls dont lemme find some1 down the line in this ridiculous yet entertaining thread take this seriously.
This thread is too old, and every other thread in this forum continues to cover this (crazy) topic, anyway. Please hit up one of those.