Junction Machine Ellone

You know that part in disk three just before Squall and co. go into Lunatic Pandora and Laguna and Dr. Odine talk about their plan to have Ultimecia possess Rinoa so Ellone can send her in the past to create Time Compression? Odine says he created the Junction Machine Ellone that Ultimecia uses to come back to the past to possess Edea and Rinoa.

Now, I know that for story purposes, they had to achieve Time Compression to fight Ultimecia but... Did it even cross their minds to just destroy the JME so Ultimecia couldn't use it in the future?

they stopped construction of the machine but it still got built after they were dead.

another possibility would be to kill ellone that would work

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

My thoughts on fate aside (it's a damned stupid concept), I don't believe they should have destroyed the machine. It would have been pointless. The machine is just a tool. Good, evil, it can be used for both. Destroying it would not stop the evil. It might set it back, but it wouldn't stop it. You've all seen Return of the King, haven't you? Remember when Gimli said "Let him stay there, let him rot! Why should we care?" It is a similar attitude. You may have quieted things down, but the enemy is by no means defeated. If you hope to stop evil, you must strike at the heart of the evil itself. Treat the disease, not the symptoms. Until she is defeated, Ulti will still be out there. And destroying one machine won't be enough to stop her.

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That's from the last time I talked about this topic, in this thread.

I'm reminded of 'Let's play FF VIII''s little rendition of that scene involving Junction Machine Ellone.

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Originally Posted by Namelessfengir

another possibility would be to kill ellone that would work

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I'm all for that! :p

EDIT: @ Bahamut2000X, fantastic website. Then again, I love anything which rips the p!ss out of FFVIII. :D

There'd be no point in simply destroying it, because they'd have no guarantee that it would be rebuilt in the future. If they really wanted to create some sort of paradox to prevent Ultimecia gaining the JME, they'd have to make sure it was never rebuilt for the next 200 years or so (until after Ultimecia's era), and it's not like that was gonna happen.

Secondly, they knew (through Ellone's experience, and Squall's for that matter, and I'm betting Odine knew from a scientific perspective too) that nothing they did in their own time could change the fact that Ultimecia in the future has the machine, because you can't change time (past or future; this is a central concept in the game). So again there's no purpose in just destroying it. The very fact that Ultimecia has it proves that destroying it won't help, so they have to rather confront her head on.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut2000X

I'm reminded of 'Let's play FF VIII''s little rendition of that scene involving Junction Machine Ellone.

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I ended up reading the whole of that thing from start to finish because it was bloody hilarious. Thanks for posting it.

As for the JME topic, I still think that logically something destroyed in the past won't exist in the future and so destroying it would have been a better thing to do. However, I suppose on the off-chance that Ultimecia were able to build another or something, it'd still be best to have the JME there to use against her.

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As for the JME topic, I still think that logically something destroyed in the past won't exist in the future and so destroying it would have been a better thing to do.

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Like I said though, even if you follow that theory (that you can change the past etc.) then this won't be good enough. If the JME were destroyed in Squall's time but reinvented just one day before Ultimecia decided she needed to get to the past, that would have been enough to allow Ultimecia to get hold of the machine.

Destroying the machine would do nothing. As SB said, you can't change the past.

Even going into the future to fight Ultimecia was part of time. The loop of FFVIII was that Ultimecia feared SeeD which in turn made Seed come to be in the first place. She travels back in time and after a whole lot of BS Squall and the gang go into the futre and bring her fears to reality. Then she goes back in time and passes her powers onto Edea.

That seems to be the timeloop of FFVIII. Noting can change it.

Who said destroying the machine in the past? They could very well destroy it in the present, as well as the blue prints for it so it couldn't be rebuilt by someone else in the future. They can't change the past because it already happened, but they can very well change their future.

Granted, it would not destroy the problem of Ultimecia in the future, and could create another time loop...

Oh my, that Let's Play thread was the funniest thing ever!

Let's all just say together "I hate time travel" and be done with it.

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Who said destroying the machine in the past? They could very well destroy it in the present, as well as the blue prints for it so it couldn't be rebuilt by someone else in the future. They can't change the past because it already happened, but they can very well change their future.

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You're destroying the machine in Ultimecia's past. I mean, Ultimecia exists in the future clearly, so if Squall and Co can't change their past, neither can Ultimecia. Being unable to change the past in FF8 implies that all of time is set in stone.

This is when you need Future Esthar to shed light on the situation.

Squall is a victim of the predestination paradox. In order for Garden and SeeD to exist, Squall must face Ultimecia in the future and then journey to the past with her in order to inspire Edea. Once this occurs, rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You're destroying the machine in Ultimecia's past. I mean, Ultimecia exists in the future clearly, so if Squall and Co can't change their past, neither can Ultimecia. Being unable to change the past in FF8 implies that all of time is set in stone.

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Yes, you cannot change the past, but every choice you make in the present influences the future. Someone from the future couldn't destroy the machine in the past because, for them, it already happened and cannot be undone. Squall and co. can destroy it in the present since the future hasn't happened yet.

It wouldn't solve the problem of Ultimecia, and would end up creating another timeline, that much is true. But saying it cannot be destroyed in the present because you cannot change the past does not make sense.

It makes perfect sense, and is the only logical conclusion.

We agree that Ultimecia cannot change her own past, right? Well, Ultimecia's past consists of Squall's future from his own perspective. Hence if Ultimecia can't change the past, this means that Squall's future is set in stone. Hence he couldn't have changed his future because that would mean changing her past, which is impossible.

The conjunction of not being able to change the past and the fact that the future exists in the world of FF8 (evidenced by timetravel) implies directly that all of time exists "at once" so to speak, which directly implies that there is no meaningful distinction between past, present and future. If you can't change one of those, you can't change the others, because your past is always someone elses future and vice versa.