Square-Enix's Remakes and Spins-off VS Final Fantasy Fandom.

This is nothing new; ever since the company released its first real sequel to a Final Fantasy title, Final Fantasy X-2, fans have been divided. Some are glad for the universe of their favourite installment being expanded, while others decry that whenever S-E releases a new remake or spin-off, there is a perversion of the original title. This is especially true when elements that have been canon, sometimes for as much of a decade, are retconned by the new material.

Now, while I understand that S-E is a company, and that companies must create new stuff to continue to make money to create even more stuff and pay their employees, are they being fair to their fanbase? The company may legally own the franchise on paper, but after sharing these titles with the public for twenty years now, can we even say Final Fantasy belongs ONLY to Square-Enix? Especially when it is often the fans, as opposed to Square-Enix' marketting department, that have been keeping the interest in the older titles alive by building websites like this one, writing fanfiction, drawing fanarts, et cetera. Do the fans even have the right to be upset when the creative minds of S-E does something new?

What are your thoughts?

I think the american fanbase has been divided since VII. Considering alot of people buy and enjoy the remakes and spinoffs, it's kind of weird to assume the fanbase is being somehow cheated. It hasn't stopped new and fun games from being made, either.

Crisis Core was absolutely awesome.

For the most part, I feel the series belongs to SE and they are allowed to do as they damn well please with it. Granted I don't always agree with them and in the case of sequels and spin-offs (in terms of the main FF series. Non-FF titles like Front Mission, Mana series, and Chrono series need more love):love: , I am strongly opposed to them. But some people want to see their favorite characters again... no matter how badly the company rapes and pillages their name...

But the thing is, if you don't like it... Don't buy it. SE keeps churning out bad sequels and spin-offs cause someone keeps buying them. I've only dealt with the Compilation cause my friends are hopeless VII fanboys, so I borrow what I can and X-2 was a Christmas gift... I haven't played Revenant Wings or TA2 so I can't make any judgement on them.

Its odd this topic comes up since I recently finished Crisis Core and must say its a horrible disaster that tarnishes the original game. In fact, with the exception of Last Order, I don't think anything good has come from the Compilation.

If someone's gonna say that fantasy sequels inherently suck, they'd need to bear in mind that The Lord of the Rings was originally requested, and intended, as a sequel to The Hobbit.

The Final Fantasy sequels are what we make of them. And what Square-Enix makes of them. A chance to expand a story, continue it, or even examine it from a whole new perspective. A sequel has the potential to go well, or go badly - but overall, I'd say there's a marginally higher chance of it going badly, since there's the built-in tendency to rely on the popularity of the previous work. It's not often a sequel needs an entirely new cast and new world, after all, so there's less 'creativity' going into it by default.

Wow Wolf Kanno, I think you're the first person I've seen who loathes Crisis Core. :p I haven't played it yet, but I'm interested in what has displeased you so much. It's supposed to better than some in the main series. Apparently. ;)

As for sequels, Square Enix has complete control over its own properties. I've learned that owners tend to ruin their own works given enough time, and often care little about what fans think (::cough::JK Rowling::cough::). As long as the product still sells, all is hunky-dory.

To be fair though, I think the only thing FF-wise that seems to be universally disliked is Dirge of Cerberus. I think that's the only one I've disliked.

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Originally Posted by hhr1dluv

Wow Wolf Kanno, I think you're the first person I've seen who loathes Crisis Core. :p I haven't played it yet, but I'm interested in what has displeased you so much. It's supposed to better than some in the main series. Apparently. ;)

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I'm also one of the few people who truly hates KHII story (though I love CoM) as well as FFX, so I'm automatically an odd duck on these forums. ;) Crisis Core is not entirely a bad game but it unecessarily messes with canon (all so it can tie in its throw away villain :rolleyes2 ) In fact, if CC didn't have Genesis and tried its best to be "epic" then it would have been a great game storywise. I love Zack but CC was not what I wanted for him. There are other issues but this is not the place to discuss them. CC was just disappointing to me but I'm certain most VII fanboys will treat it like the Holy Grail.

Problems arise in sequels and prequels when the intellectual property itself was created to be stand alone. Then when the other stories are made, they feel they need to have the stories just as wild and epic even though in order to create more tension we have to add to the mythos. Sometimes it works most of the time it doesn't, but mostly cause the new elements feel tacked on or just completely foreign. Other issues appear when the added material starts changing the original canon. For instance, according to the Compilation, there are four different versions of the Nibelheim incedent where Sephiroth goes crazy. Even more amusing is that even the Compilations Ultimania guide points this out and never states which is canon...

For the FF series, though many of them could easily have prequels and a few sequels, most were made with a looming sense of finality. My favorite of the main series is VI and I don't believe its possible to create an epic sequel from it. On the other hand, XII was written in such a way where the player only caught a glimpse of the world. It could easily have sequels or prequels.

In the case of X-2, FF fans have always been accustomed to having a numbered FF game tell a complete and rounded-off story that does not lend itself to a sequel. In addition to breaking that tradition, X-2 was also a girl-power fest that simply did not... speak to a wide fanbase.

VII has become laden with sequels and prequels simply because its rabid fanbase has done nothing but grow for over a decade. I think VII told a very satisfying story on its own and feel that all of the new games/movies we have been seeing of VII over the past few years are completely unessecary. I recently played through VII again and watched Advent Children immediately afterwards, and the addition of that movie's storyline to VII's cosmos was just silly and unrewarding. Pretty, but ultimately superfluous. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Takara

This is nothing new; ever since the company released its first real sequel to a Final Fantasy title, Final Fantasy X-2, fans have been divided.

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The first real sequel to a Final Fantasy was the sequel of FFV, released as an OVA.

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Some are glad for the universe of their favourite installment being expanded, while others decry that whenever S-E releases a new remake or spin-off, there is a perversion of the original title. This is especially true when elements that have been canon, sometimes for as much of a decade, are retconned by the new material.

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I'm part of the first group. If something is good, why stop it?

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Now, while I understand that S-E is a company, and that companies must create new stuff to continue to make money to create even more stuff and pay their employees, are they being fair to their fanbase?

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I think they are. The fact people are buying the games, means they are still interested.
So, nothing more fair than giving to the fans what they want.

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The company may legally own the franchise on paper, but after sharing these titles with the public for twenty years now, can we even say Final Fantasy belongs ONLY to Square-Enix?

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Yes. They created it and it belongs to them.

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Especially when it is often the fans, as opposed to Square-Enix' marketting department, that have been keeping the interest in the older titles alive by building websites like this one, writing fanfiction, drawing fanarts, et cetera.

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And S-E have been kipping the interest in the older titles, by remaking them to new platforms.

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Do the fans even have the right to be upset when the creative minds of S-E does something new?

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Of course they have. But the real question is: If it upsets the fans, why they continue to buy the games?

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What are your thoughts?

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My thought is that S-E is giving what the fans wants. If that wasn't the case, S-E would have to stop making the games, simply because no one would be buying them.

I'm fine with SE making spin-offs, or sequels, of their games, I really like to see more of some of the numbered games' characters and world and so I will most likely take a look at whatever is released. I played X-2 and while it's somewhat of a fun game, I thought the ending wasn't as good as X, so I (taking a similar idea to Seymour's advice to the group in X) 'pretend' it doesn't exist (as canonical).

I really wouldn't mind seeing a new console game that takes place in either the world of FFVII, FFIX, or FFXII with different characters and a new story that doesn't have anything to do with the previously mentioned games.

People are going to buy the games. If you don't think you'll like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. Enough people are going to buy it to keep sales up. I wonder why this is somewhat hard for people to understand. You won't have something ruined for you if you don't play it. A lot of people really want change, there's a new generation of gamers coming and they are more into action games and will say "Whoa! I'm getting into random battles! I don't know what to do!". This makes it seem like the older fans of FF are being left behind so perhaps these sequels and prequels are what SE THINKS is going to make us happy and what better game to do this with than FFVII, it's kind of the "official FF" game in a way. The one you see talked about most (in places other than this forum). I think that we as the older fans are getting selfish with what SE does. They are obviously doing something right if people still buy their games.

P.S. I am not a big fan of FFVII and Cloud isn't my hero.

At first, I was somewhat against the idea of SE making sequels and spinoffs. But then I warmed up to it, and I dont really mind now. It makes the series a bit more unique. When you think about it, almost all series(whether it be video games, movies, or even anime)has sequels and spinoffs. One series that comes to mind is Gundam. If I'm not mistaken, almost half the series are sequels.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Takara

This is nothing new; ever since the company released its first real sequel to a Final Fantasy title, Final Fantasy X-2, fans have been divided.

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The first real sequel to a Final Fantasy was the sequel of FFV, released as an OVA.

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Some are glad for the universe of their favourite installment being expanded, while others decry that whenever S-E releases a new remake or spin-off, there is a perversion of the original title. This is especially true when elements that have been canon, sometimes for as much of a decade, are retconned by the new material.

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I'm part of the first group. If something is good, why stop it?

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Now, while I understand that S-E is a company, and that companies must create new stuff to continue to make money to create even more stuff and pay their employees, are they being fair to their fanbase?

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I think they are. The fact people are buying the games, means they are still interested.
So, nothing more fair than giving to the fans what they want.

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The company may legally own the franchise on paper, but after sharing these titles with the public for twenty years now, can we even say Final Fantasy belongs ONLY to Square-Enix?

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Yes. They created it and it belongs to them.

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Especially when it is often the fans, as opposed to Square-Enix' marketting department, that have been keeping the interest in the older titles alive by building websites like this one, writing fanfiction, drawing fanarts, et cetera.

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And S-E have been kipping the interest in the older titles, by remaking them to new platforms.

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Do the fans even have the right to be upset when the creative minds of S-E does something new?

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Of course they have. But the real question is: If it upsets the fans, why they continue to buy the games?

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What are your thoughts?

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My thought is that S-E is giving what the fans wants. If that wasn't the case, S-E would have to stop making the games, simply because no one would be buying them.

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to the point, and hits the nail on the head.

Well, as you said, the fanbase is divided. People with brains on one side and people who’d buy toenail clippings if Square offered them.

The fanboy logic is inherently “Square Good. Game Good. Fire Bad”. Using this caveman mentality, we’ve gotten Ehrgeiz. That should end the thread right there but it won’t.
“Square owns the product they can do whatever they want” is the same kind of thinking that also led to Godfather Part III and of course Jaws: The Revenge.

There’s really no point in asking a board full of people with this kinda brain function, or lack thereof, do they think sequels are a bad idea. OF COURSE THEY’RE NOT! Square made them.! The fact Square makes them SHOWS they are good. BURN THE HERETICS!

If they make it, fanboys will buy. I can see it now....a sequel to Field of Dreams. Everyone would come to the theater to see it because it would be made by Universal Studios. Of course the plot would be if you make a ping pong table you can get all the great ping pong champions to come play and it would be directed by Uwe Boll...
But it be good by dammit! Why? Well...there’s actually no reason when you use your brain. But if you turn off that pesky little annoyance you can see why it’s good.
Answer: Because it wouldn’t have been made if it wasn’t good and people didn’t want it.

And what of the fanbase? The people who actually care about the games? Pft. They don't matter. Square's execs, the people who care about money, matter! To hell with the people who spend days upon days doing work and thinking and almost obsessing over these games! Their acute knowledge and attention to detail means jack!
Ah...reminds me of Karen Traviss. She writes SW stories. She openly admits she doesn't read other SW material to learn stuff about the very universe she's supposed to be writing about.
But OF COURSE she's more important and better than the real SW fans!

To summarize my rant, it’s the fanbase vs. fanboys & Square-Enix. It’s the sad truth that, with :skull::skull::skull::skull: like Advent Children and now Versus XIII, people just don’t hardly care anymore. Back around IX and X, a new FF title was the talk of the net. Now...thanks to the spin-offs and sequels, most hardly give a :skull::skull::skull::skull:.

Oh and yes fanboys, I did not say everyone. I made a general statement and thus correcting me by saying “well, I look forward to it!” doesn’t matter to me.

Also, FFX-2 was at least a passable game. Much better than Advent Children or Dirge of Cerberus. Well, it’s to be expected. FFX’s plot was way superior to VII’s in...well...every way.

P.S.
Also the remake of Oceans Eleven and its two sequels... Really. I not only put nails in the coffin, I blew it up with a rocket launcher with those examples.

I like how people are talking :skull::skull::skull::skull: about XIII and it's not even close to coming out yet. Maybe you should wait until it's out to bash it.

I guess I'll have to wait to say sh*t about the remake of Friday the 13th too....

Wait, are you serious?

I feel that Square Enix is on a productive path with its marketing. I believe that they are saving a substantial amount of development time on each title that they push out, and, because of this, they are able to produce more titles and generate more revenue.

As a fan, I think this is a bad idea because it limits the creativity seen in every Square Enix title. As a marketer, I think this is a great idea because of the time and resources saved as a result of cashing in on franchise titles and individual titles.

FL, I think you're getting carried away. Yes, Ehrgeiz was somewhat of a simplistic fighter. Yes, Dirge of Cerberus doesn't hold up very well as a shooter.

But anyone dramatic enough to make them out to be horrendous atrocities that completely obliterate the credibility of the company and its titles, cares waaaaaaaaay too much about video games.

When I look at alot of the spinoffs and remakes over just the last few years - FFIIIDS, Revenant Wings, Tactics Advance, now A2, War of the Lions, Crisis Core, Dawn of Souls, IV, V, and VI Advance, and now even the IV DS project has even the hard-headed self-proclaimed oldschoolers drooling...

I gotta say alot of them have been quality products. I think the amount that FFII gained from its original WSC port is enough to say there is some merit in projects such as these.

So I don't see how the "fans" are getting royally screwed, nor how the "fanboys" are so dumb that they'd buy anything. Alot of them have been good games, and I've enjoyed some of them myself. Ones that suck (Dirge), I don't buy, and I don't see how it could ever change the way I view the original FFVII.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

But anyone dramatic enough to make them out to be horrendous atrocities that completely obliterate the credibility of the company and its titles, cares waaaaaaaaay too much about video games.

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This is true. A bad game does not supercede a good game in a series, and there is always hope that the series will be back on track with its next game. This happens a lot in other genres of video games.

For me, I've lost some faith in SE due primarily to the Compilation of VII. It doesn't do anything but tarnish the reputation of the original. Its the physical incarnation of my reasoning of why you don't make sequels and prequels to an FF. Half of it is pretentious nonsense and the other half is a fanboy wet dream and neither do anything to expand upon the original game, you know, the good one. There were some good ideas which were twisted and destroyed by a series of bad ideas and horrible execution. I'm only happy cause I know I never supported it, and for all intents and purposes I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

I like them n.n


If someone doesn't like spin-offs and prequels they just shouldn't buy them >.>

Then everyone is happy.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

For me, I've lost some faith in SE due primarily to the Compilation of VII. It doesn't do anything but tarnish the reputation of the original. Its the physical incarnation of my reasoning of why you don't make sequels and prequels to an FF. Half of it is pretentious nonsense and the other half is a fanboy wet dream and neither do anything to expand upon the original game, you know, the good one. There were some good ideas which were twisted and destroyed by a series of bad ideas and horrible execution. I'm only happy cause I know I never supported it, and for all intents and purposes I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

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I agree with Wolf Kanno. S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are. To me, spinoffs go far beyond 'tarnishing the reputation' of their original titles, they actually make me less interested in the original titles as well.

As for FFVII, which I have made very clear that I feel that it is extremely overrated, a mediocre game at best, all the spinoffs have done nothing but make me hate the VII series in general. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the original VII; I just think it's awfully overrated, and has generated an irritating fanbase who are starry-eyed over lousy characters and Sephiroth, who in my opinion is one of the worst villains in the Playstation era of Final Fantasy. Not only that, they are blind to the fact that the story was confusing and rather dull.

FFX-2 did the same thing for me. I enjoyed FFX a lot, and I had very high expectations for the sequel. What did I end up playing? A lousy spinoff that ruins the main story, soaked in half-assed fanservice. I have had no desire to replay FFX since. Think of it as 'dislike by association'.

I'm even skeptical of the FFIV sequel. FFIV is by far my favorite Final Fantasy overall, and something tells me the sequel will do nothing for the story.

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Originally Posted by Momiji

I'm even skeptical of the FFIV sequel. FFIV is by far my favorite Final Fantasy overall, and something tells me the sequel will do nothing for the story.

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It would be very difficult for Square Enix to ruin the feel of the original because this game is on a mobile phone, and it has the same graphical style as its predecessor. Its general overview looks more darker than Final Fantasy X-2 was to Final Fantasy X, and its gameplay is very similar to Final Fantasy IV, unlike Final Fantasy VII and Dirge of Cerberus, so this type of thing hasn't been done yet —

Concerning FFIV-2, its not the gameplay side of it that bothers me, its the fact that making a sequel seems pointless. What is there left to say? The orignial ending gave a pretty decent idea what everyone would do afterwards. The orignal doesn't have enough elements storywise to warrant a sequel. I don't see the point of going back to this world outside of just seeing my favorite characters again but even then I was quite satisfied where things left off in the original.

There are no background elements to explore and the only way to generate a real plot for it will be to make some new bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: threat to existence. Overall it just seems it may end up being one of those cash in sequels that Hollywood likes to make.:rolleyes2

This game really feels more like a whoring out a popular franchise than the Compilation if only cause making a sequel to IV is downright implausible. Its like making a sequel to Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet.

Ohhh, well, i not particuarly interested in them anyway.

At least Square did one thing right with Kingdom Hearts - they made it with sequals in mind.

My biggest problem with sequels, is when they do weird things. FFIV sequels for cell phones? What about those that want it elsewhere. FFXII:RW on DS? I don't own a PS2, never played FFXII, but played RW just because I had a DS. That doesn't make sense but that's how it works. I played FFVII on the PC, and do not own a PSP. I will not buy it for one game... but I want to play Crisis Core. Will I ever be able to? Probably not.

I suppose that's just how it works, but it does get annoying at times.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Concerning FFIV-2, its not the gameplay side of it that bothers me, its the fact that making a sequel seems pointless. What is there left to say? The orignial ending gave a pretty decent idea what everyone would do afterwards. The orignal doesn't have enough elements storywise to warrant a sequel. I don't see the point of going back to this world outside of just seeing my favorite characters again but even then I was quite satisfied where things left off in the original.

There are no background elements to explore and the only way to generate a real plot for it will be to make some new bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: threat to existence. Overall it just seems it may end up being one of those cash in sequels that Hollywood likes to make.:rolleyes2

This game really feels more like a whoring out a popular franchise than the Compilation if only cause making a sequel to IV is downright implausible. Its like making a sequel to Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet.

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@Roogle: This is basically what I was going to say, but WK beat me to it. It isn't the fact that it looks the same and plays the same, it's that there's nothing else to do with the story.


Besides, it's not like FFIV is one of the more popular ones, and people who aren't a fan of it now won't care about a sequel. FFIV seems to be very much a 'love it or hate it' game, mainly because the newer generations of gamers have no smurfing idea who Cecil or Rydia are, but they know who Yuna and Vaan are.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Non-FF titles like Front Mission, Mana series, and Chrono series need more love):love:.

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They've already got love and it's tainted MANY die hard fans love for the Mana series.

Due to lack of sales and over all condemning by the gaming world the mana series (unless they remake Seiken Densetsu 2 and release Seiken Densetsu 3 to the US) has essentially killed any plans for further mana games. And it's due to sales of Sword of Mana (SD remake on GBA), SD4 and the World of Mana spin offs.

Honestly, I think they would have had better luck just re-releasing SD2 and a US SD3 release than making SD4 and it's World of Mana counter parts.

Granted, I'm that fan that will still play the bad games even if it means grudging through things that are horrible. But then again, it's the fans like me that keep Squeenix believeing that mass spin off's and sequels and prequels are great. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Momiji

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

For me, I've lost some faith in SE due primarily to the Compilation of VII. It doesn't do anything but tarnish the reputation of the original. Its the physical incarnation of my reasoning of why you don't make sequels and prequels to an FF. Half of it is pretentious nonsense and the other half is a fanboy wet dream and neither do anything to expand upon the original game, you know, the good one. There were some good ideas which were twisted and destroyed by a series of bad ideas and horrible execution. I'm only happy cause I know I never supported it, and for all intents and purposes I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

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I agree with Wolf Kanno. S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are. To me, spinoffs go far beyond 'tarnishing the reputation' of their original titles, they actually make me less interested in the original titles as well.

As for FFVII, which I have made very clear that I feel that it is extremely overrated, a mediocre game at best, all the spinoffs have done nothing but make me hate the VII series in general. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the original VII; I just think it's awfully overrated, and has generated an irritating fanbase who are starry-eyed over lousy characters and Sephiroth, who in my opinion is one of the worst villains in the Playstation era of Final Fantasy. Not only that, they are blind to the fact that the story was confusing and rather dull.

FFX-2 did the same thing for me. I enjoyed FFX a lot, and I had very high expectations for the sequel. What did I end up playing? A lousy spinoff that ruins the main story, soaked in half-assed fanservice. I have had no desire to replay FFX since. Think of it as 'dislike by association'.

I'm even skeptical of the FFIV sequel. FFIV is by far my favorite Final Fantasy overall, and something tells me the sequel will do nothing for the story.

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I guess there's another way to rephrase it:

If a video game company making products is that upsetting to you, you should probably not let it be apart of your life, much less spending time complaining about it on an internet message board.

And this: "S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are."

^I think you're overlooking the fact that alot of them actually are good games, such as Tactics Advance, Revenant Wings, IIIDS, IVDS, the advance remakes, now TA2, and Crisis Core has gotten a pretty nice consensus.

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Star Wars is overrated, though I enjoy it. But I hate Star Trek with a passion. :p

FFVII is also overrated. Basically every huge game is overrated. Basically anything wildly popular is overrated. This entire FF series is overrated. That's just how it is when something gets really popular. When you like something, you tend to ignore the flaws. When something gets really popular, most people ignore the flaws, and it becomes overrated. Thus is a fact of life.
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As I stated, I find the worst problem is when fans of the original game have to go out of their way to play the sequels/spin offs. Remakes are a different thing.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I guess there's another way to rephrase it:

If a video game company making products is that upsetting to you, you should probably not let it be apart of your life, much less spending time complaining about it on an internet message board.

And this: "S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are."

^I think you're overlooking the fact that alot of them actually are good games, such as Tactics Advance, Revenant Wings, IIIDS, IVDS, the advance remakes, now TA2, and Crisis Core has gotten a pretty nice consensus.

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Well we are in a thread discussing the merits of the relationship between spin-offs, remakes, and sequel/prequels with the needs and wants of the fanbase. I feel its a perfect place to state the faults of such things and shouldn't I have a right to state my opinion? ;)

Spin-offs and remakes don't really bother me so much, then again TA is the only spin-off in the series and I've yet to plat RW and TA2 so I can't say much of the Ivalice Alliance. The remakes are well done and I've never really been against them (only the order they should be made ;)) as well as the ports being of good quality; but marketing past success is no reason to justify that sequels/prequels are therefore good.

Crisis Core is a good game but I wouldn't say its a great game. I take its reviews with a grain of salt cause the majority of reviews I've read always has the reviewer stating VII is his/her favorite. Star Wars game shouldn't be reviewed by Star Wars fans and neither should FFVII projects be reviewed by VII fans.:p Its not a terrible game but it has its fault, and I even feel it gets higher reviews than it should due to its assocciation with VII.

Its not a bad game overall but it has some major flaws that I noticed many people overlook. The AI is pretty bad; the difficulty of the main story is pathetic; battles force you into "invisible arenas" and when dealing with larger enemies or just large groups, this invisible arena forces you to take unnecessary hits cause your movement is badly hindered. The main game offers a variety of gameplay options but the Missions (the bulk of the gameplay) are generic dungeon crawlers using the same 8 maps for over 300 missions doing the same thing...

Personally I feel the main story is hindered by a lousy villain and a pointless over the top plot that makes unneccessary alterations to important events in the VII mythos. The story is also hindered by pacing issues and lack of important information that is never provided in-game. The best elements of CC's story are the events actually concerning the original canon, mainly, Zack's relationship with Aerith, Cloud, and Sephiroth.

My issue with the Compilation is that VII needs to be remade so it can fit the Compilation... Am I the only person who feels this is a little backwards? Shouldn't the Compilation be trying to fit with the original source material? Its this half-ass way of doing the project that makes me justify they shouldn't be done. Most of the FF's don't have enough source material to justify sequels (VII being one of them) and very few even have enough elements to make a decent prequel.

I can live with remakes and ports, but we can all do without the sequels and prequels, especially if SE can't be bothered to make them work.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Momiji

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

For me, I've lost some faith in SE due primarily to the Compilation of VII. It doesn't do anything but tarnish the reputation of the original. Its the physical incarnation of my reasoning of why you don't make sequels and prequels to an FF. Half of it is pretentious nonsense and the other half is a fanboy wet dream and neither do anything to expand upon the original game, you know, the good one. There were some good ideas which were twisted and destroyed by a series of bad ideas and horrible execution. I'm only happy cause I know I never supported it, and for all intents and purposes I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

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I agree with Wolf Kanno. S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are. To me, spinoffs go far beyond 'tarnishing the reputation' of their original titles, they actually make me less interested in the original titles as well.

As for FFVII, which I have made very clear that I feel that it is extremely overrated, a mediocre game at best, all the spinoffs have done nothing but make me hate the VII series in general. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the original VII; I just think it's awfully overrated, and has generated an irritating fanbase who are starry-eyed over lousy characters and Sephiroth, who in my opinion is one of the worst villains in the Playstation era of Final Fantasy. Not only that, they are blind to the fact that the story was confusing and rather dull.

FFX-2 did the same thing for me. I enjoyed FFX a lot, and I had very high expectations for the sequel. What did I end up playing? A lousy spinoff that ruins the main story, soaked in half-assed fanservice. I have had no desire to replay FFX since. Think of it as 'dislike by association'.

I'm even skeptical of the FFIV sequel. FFIV is by far my favorite Final Fantasy overall, and something tells me the sequel will do nothing for the story.

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I guess there's another way to rephrase it:

If a video game company making products is that upsetting to you, you should probably not let it be apart of your life, much less spending time complaining about it on an internet message board.

And this: "S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are."

^I think you're overlooking the fact that alot of them actually are good games, such as Tactics Advance, Revenant Wings, IIIDS, IVDS, the advance remakes, now TA2, and Crisis Core has gotten a pretty nice consensus.

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Complaining, you say? Don't even go there with me. I have as much of a right to an opinion as you do, and just because you disagree doesn't mean you can write my opinion off as a complaint. And I DON'T make it a part of my life, thank you very much, I'm just giving my two cents on the subject. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to do that?

And I said spinoffs, not remakes. I'm fine with remakes. It's the spinoffs that annoy me, especially the ones S-E do a less-than-desirable job on just to get a quick payoff on the fanboys/girls who would buy a used tissue if they found out it was used by their favorite character.

Furthermore, and I don't know if you haven't noticed this or not, Star Wars IS overrated. And I hate Star Trek by the way. I like FFIV much more because I found it to be a very good game, in my opinion.

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot. I'm not allowed to have an opinion if it conflicts with yours.

Woah, woah, woah, guys, guys! Before you get all unnecessarily cynical assuming that I put forth a royal decree that no one is allowed to have different opinions:

I was only looking out for your own mental well-being. And mine, considering all this unfounded (yes->) Complaining is a sore to read. Dissent is productive and valuable to development, whining not so much. I mean, you people do understand you're getting all negative over a company releasing video games, right?

And Kanno, I'm confused... Is CC a "good game" or a "generic dungeon crawler" with "pathetic" difficulty and a "pointless over the top plot"?

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Originally Posted by Jackal

Basically every huge game is overrated. Basically anything wildly popular is overrated. This entire FF series is overrated. That's just how it is when something gets really popular. When you like something, you tend to ignore the flaws. When something gets really popular, most people ignore the flaws, and it becomes overrated. Thus is a fact of life.

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To you and Momiji, I have to say, no, I do not believe Star Wars or FFVII to be overrated. They are simply creative works of contemporary art mediums that have stood the test of time and are enjoyed by a large group of people. If you honestly think the majority of the people who do so consider them to be utterly flawless as they cosplay at conventions, then you are out of your mind and out of touch with the people you are prejudging, and stereotyping.

And JACKAL, honestly no offense, but I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you don't have the psychology or sociology credentials to back up your hypothesis of conveniency. I mean, don't people like things in the first place because its flaws are outmeasured by its strengths? Just something to think about. Proclaimed "facts of life", like "rationality", is a relative term which has little meaning other than an abstract plea for substance.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Woah, woah, woah, guys, guys! Before you get all unnecessarily cynical assuming that I put forth a royal decree that no one is allowed to have different opinions:

I was only looking out for your own mental well-being. And mine, considering all this unfounded (yes->) Complaining is a sore to read. Dissent is productive and valuable to development, whining not so much. I mean, you people do understand you're getting all negative over a company releasing video games, right?

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One can say your optimism of this all being good is unfounded as well to us but thats the nature of arguments, no?;) You should know I'm an instigater(sp?) by now Bolivar. I enjoy conflict. It makes these forums more interesting.

But our complaint is how these video games are affecting the original source material. I have no issues about SE making good games, I have issues when they tarnish something I care about to make a quick buck. As I stated before, my issue with the Compilation (and its my complaint against SE, not the remakes or spin-offs) is that even though I can appreciate it from a buisness perspective, I can't tolerate it from a writing perspective cause its sloppy work and from a fan perspective cause it cheapens the original game. Its difficult to love a game when each time a new prequel or sequel is released you have to check to make sure how it alters the original. As I stated, had the Compilation followed the original game as canon instead of changing whatever they felt like to suit their own story purposes I probably wouldn't mind the Compilation. Its an artistic nightmare...

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And Kanno, I'm confused... Is CC a "good game" or a "generic dungeon crawler" with "pathetic" difficulty and a "pointless over the top plot"?

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I have a detailed explanantion in the Crisis Core thread. I will try to elaborate...

As I stated the Missions (which make up the bulk of gameplay and are seperate from the story) are nothing more than generic dungeon crawlers. The main storyline offers a varitey of gameplay options but is hindered by a total lack of difficulty. Combat is only made fun and interesting by the DMV, the combat system itself is simplistic and painfully hindered by a bad camera. Luckily the materia system is still strong but I feel it lacks real variety but this is purely due to system restrictions. In fact many issues I have with the gameplay side of things are due to the game being on PSP rather a console.

The story is good when it deals with cast members from the original game, with only Cissinei and Angeal being new characters that are well implemented. Lazard and Genesis are not... Lazard is a major player but most of his backstory is never stated in the main plot and Genesis is easily the worst villain ever concieved. He appears, quotes from LOVELESS so he makes the scene appear more poetic (in other words pretentious), whines about not being as good as Sephiroth and being betrayed by everyone, sends his minions to fight you, and escapes. (SPOILER)His origins make him out to be a Sephiroth knock-off...

Later he is written into one of the most important scenes in FFVII and is placed in a highly relevant role though he was never there to begin with and his role isn't important either but the author wants you to believe it... After Zack wakes up after 4 years confinement in Nibelheim, he desperatly escapes and though he is trying to make it back to Midgard and start anew; (SPOILER)instead decides to stop off and finish Genesis off in the last dungeon of which we are given the most pretentious bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: plot exploits since Xenosaga... . Storywise, CC could have been good, its ending is beautiful and there is some very strong character interactions; but Genesis easily cheapens the entire experience.

Half the game is really good and half the game is really bad, it comes down to personal choice which side has more merits but for me, the overall plot (which is what I play RPGs for) is just lousy and a few strong scenes are not enough to make me look the other way on the games bad points; especially when one of those bad points is having my favorite scene cheapened by having Genesis made a part of it. Its gameplay is a good way to kill time but I can't say its a very rewarding experience. Its a good portable experience which makes it a good game but its far from being great...

^okay, i guess that last sentence clarifies it a bit. And yes, of course i know you're an instigator, obviously your ambiguous remarks about CC are proof enough of that.

But onto your initial statement, the pessimism is unfounded because so many of the spinoffs are actually good games. A few bombs ("bomb" being an exaggeration at that) does not mean Square is molesting the integrity of their original products by making these products. As I said, i hardly meant argument is a bad thing, but if something is so upsetting to someone in real life (i'm hoping momiji is exaggerating) they probably shouldn't waste time complaining about it. Not only is it overly and unnecesarily emotional, but it's not good to spend time dwelling on things that upset you that much. Again, I'm hoping it doesnt.

I think your issues with it, go back to a very basic principle - if you don't like it, don't buy it. You're right about Angeal and Genesis - they're making them out to be major players in a story that they weren't initially in, and working them in ways which contradict the original. Does that mean SE is raping my childhood? No, I simply bought a DS for FFIII rather than a PSP for CC. At the same time, I know alot of people are going to enjoy CC, so why would I make such a fuss over them releasing a little fanservice?

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^okay, i guess that last sentence clarifies it a bit. And yes, of course i know you're an instigator, obviously your ambiguous remarks about CC are proof enough of that.

But onto your initial statement, the pessimism is unfounded because so many of the spinoffs are actually good games. A few bombs ("bomb" being an exaggeration at that) does not mean Square is molesting the integrity of their original products by making these products. As I said, i hardly meant argument is a bad thing, but if something is so upsetting to someone in real life (i'm hoping momiji is exaggerating) they probably shouldn't waste time complaining about it. Not only is it overly and unnecesarily emotional, but it's not good to spend time dwelling on things that upset you that much. Again, I'm hoping it doesnt.

I think your issues with it, go back to a very basic principle - if you don't like it, don't buy it. You're right about Angeal and Genesis - they're making them out to be major players in a story that they weren't initially in, and working them in ways which contradict the original. Does that mean SE is raping my childhood? No, I simply bought a DS for FFIII rather than a PSP for CC. At the same time, I know alot of people are going to enjoy CC, so why would I make such a fuss over them releasing a little fanservice?

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Seriously, I don't lose any sleep over it or anything. I could care less about the Compilation cause VII isn't one of my top favorites. I've always been against sequels but as I stated before its cause very few FFs have the necessary story materials to warrant one, or at least make an exciting one that most of the fans could enjoy. I feel the Compilation proves my point in this regard. and all I worry about is the day when SE decides to give similiar treatment to the FF I do like (FFIV now being the first) I will choose to ignore it but it does make conversation difficult. As a writer I just have a difficult time letting go of the Compilations faults. VII was a good game and it deserved better IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I was only looking out for your own mental well-being. And mine, considering all this unfounded (yes->) Complaining is a sore to read. Dissent is productive and valuable to development, whining not so much. I mean, you people do understand you're getting all negative over a company releasing video games, right?

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And you're telling me I'm wrong to say what I said because I didn't agree with what you said. What I said was not a complaint. All I said was, and I quote:

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Originally Posted by Me

As for FFVII, which I have made very clear that I feel that it is extremely overrated, a mediocre game at best, all the spinoffs have done nothing but make me hate the VII series in general. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the original VII; I just think it's awfully overrated, and has generated an irritating fanbase who are starry-eyed over lousy characters and Sephiroth, who in my opinion is one of the worst villains in the Playstation era of Final Fantasy. Not only that, they are blind to the fact that the story was confusing and rather dull.

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None of that was a complaint. It was my opinion, whether you believe so or not.

Furthermore,

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

To you and Momiji, I have to say, no, I do not believe Star Wars or FFVII to be overrated. They are simply creative works of contemporary art mediums that have stood the test of time and are enjoyed by a large group of people. If you honestly think the majority of the people who do so consider them to be utterly flawless as they cosplay at conventions, then you are out of your mind and out of touch with the people you are prejudging, and stereotyping.

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Where the hell did I say anything about what the majority thinks and does with Star Wars? All I said was that I find it to be overrated, and not as amazing as some make it out to be, especially the most recent 3 movies. I stereotyped no one, and I think you're out of your mind for saying so. Your fatuity is astonishing. Also, leave Jackal alone; all he said was he thought it was overrated as well, though he enjoys it. Also, what he said about things becoming overrated holds a lot of truth. Look at FFVII and tell me that it is flawless. You can not, because the game is riddled with them.

Anyway, this thread is getting massively derailed. Can we please get back on topic?

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Concerning FFIV-2, its not the gameplay side of it that bothers me, its the fact that making a sequel seems pointless. What is there left to say? The orignial ending gave a pretty decent idea what everyone would do afterwards. The orignal doesn't have enough elements storywise to warrant a sequel. I don't see the point of going back to this world outside of just seeing my favorite characters again but even then I was quite satisfied where things left off in the original.

There are no background elements to explore and the only way to generate a real plot for it will be to make some new bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: threat to existence. Overall it just seems it may end up being one of those cash in sequels that Hollywood likes to make.:rolleyes2

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I agree. I wonder if the developers of the game really had enough source material to go on with this. I know that Final Fantasy IV, like most games, had a lot of unused material after its production, but I doubt that it is enough to make a sequel.

I am fine with the sequels as long as the gameplay remains intact. Final Fantasy X-2 did not use the battle system from Final Fantasy X; Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core and other titles in the compilation did not use the battle system from Final Fantasy VII. As a result, I tend to like these games less because they seem even less consistent with the original game.

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Originally Posted by Momiji

None of that was a complaint. It was my opinion, whether you believe so or not.

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Complain (verb) - 1. to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault.

:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Momiji

None of that was a complaint. It was my opinion, whether you believe so or not.

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Complain (verb) - 1. to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault.

:rolleyes2

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*sigh* Funny how you decided to point that out than discuss anything else I said.

And if that is the case, all opinions of disinterest and dislike are complaints. However, the context of the word 'complain' you are using is basically saying I'm whining, which I am not.