All she ever does is get captured or sick. He should have learned more white magic and kicked her to the curb. Then Yang can come back and be awesome with the party in the final dungeon(non-remake), like it should be.
Printable View
All she ever does is get captured or sick. He should have learned more white magic and kicked her to the curb. Then Yang can come back and be awesome with the party in the final dungeon(non-remake), like it should be.
Sigh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Cecil sees in Rosa what Rosa sees in him. They are both inlove. When a person is inlove no matter what their looks are, they just act like eachother is an attractive person.
Mulley. You don't just understand love do you? =P
Heck I would love for my women to get captured every now and then, nothings hotter then a damsel in distress. Besides Rosa was hot, not nearly as hot as Rydia, but by the time Rydia came back all grown up Cecil was already kinda stuck with Rosa. So Edge got luck and managed to sneak in and pick up Rydia.
Having a dedicated healer is very important in this game. I wouldn't want to have to split Cecil's duties between offense and restoration.
What does Mario see in Peach?
Link with Zelda?
The love interest with damsels of distress are a pretty hot thing, if you look at late 80s-early 90s in video games.
Plus, her white wardrobe probably accentuated some very nice things for Cecil as well.
Zelda isn't Link's love interest.
Cecil just wants *****, man. He's 20. He's in his prime. Rose is all about a man who is in his prime. Like this dude:
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...ex/tehshaq.png
A love interest is a love interest. My girlfriend annoys the crap out of me sometimes, but I am not going to dump her if she gets in trouble.
Cecil sees that he's supposed to like her based on the script.
Really their relationship was never key to the game, or meant to be. It served more of a purpose for Kain and Cecil's relationship than anything else. The fact that it was underdeveloped really wasn't a hindrance to the story, unlike others where the whole game was centered around underdeveloped love stories *cough*FF8*cough*.
its all about the sex
Hello! At least this time, I'm around for it. Though by now I honestly don't think anything I say will matter, because most people are dead set on seeing Rosa as worthless. I at least feel better actually showing that while most people don't care, at least I do. Bear in mind, I'm a Rosa fan, and defending her as a character is at the heart of defending her in terms of her relationship to Cecil, ESPECIALLY after the way you framed her (which is, really, how everyone frames her these days).
I'll link you to this first.
Translation of Final Fantasy IV Documents on Settings Book/Settei Shiryou Shuu/Compendium/What Have You
Firstly, Rosa and Cecil have known each other since they were children. Their ties have built up over all those years. This is the most obvious reason. And as you can see in Rosa's profile, she's highly sought, yet her love has always been for Cecil.
I now have to go into the events of the game because you don't get to see much of what happened before.
The opening, with Rosa coming to his room, the things she says, implies that she's been one of the influences to keep him from fully succumbing to his dark side. She's obviously not the WHOLE reason, that would be absurd to say, but it's one of the reasons. She's a reminder of who he was in a way Kain cannot be. Kain is another hardened warrior; Rosa is a nurturing healer.
My next one, which people LOVE to disregard: the gaps. The most important gap of all is the time between Cecil leaving Baron and Rosa showing up in Kaipo. Notice she arrives alone. Notice she would've had to travel across land, mountain and desert to reach Kaipo, and out of all of that, the worst she has is Desert Fever, an illness anyone could have contracted through prolonged exposure to the desert heat. She does this because she loves him so deeply that she wants to make sure he's okay, and she wants to be by his side to ensure it. She isn't one of those wussy types that hides back home worrying herself to death when she knows she could actually be on the front lines beside him, despite the risk. That's how much she loves him, willing to risk her life to make sure he's fine. Though yes, I know most people would prefer she didn't exist at all, her contracting the fever isn't as bad as some people suggest.
The second thing I have to mention is her abduction in Fabul. Sure, she got abducted. And guess what? It happened right in front of Cecil. How is a white mage supposed to fight back when a martial artist and a dark knight can't? This is a bit skewed because the new version of the scene just has Golbez abduct her without her catching on to it happening until it's too late, but the point still stands: there's nothing she could've done. More importantly, if she HAD been able to and HAD done something reckless, that could've easily led to Kain or Golbez simply killing them all off. Which leads me to... how she stops Kain from killing Cecil in the first place. She was on duty healing soldiers. It's apparent that in the gaps somewhere, she learned that the monsters had reached the crystal chamber, and she rushed back there to try and help him. Again, the depths of her love on display. When she's needed, she'll be there with her healing magic if it's at all in her power.
Third, and people love to overlook this: Mt. Hobs. Sure, they remember Rydia got over her fear of fire and melted the ice. But they forget that it was primarily Rosa, with a few lines from Edward, that Rydia got up the strength to break past that fear and open the way. You can't do it without Rosa, she's the key. This alludes to a gentle, kind, nurturing spirit that you don't get to see much over the course of the game, sadly. Yet, it's there, if you bother to look.
Now, I've talked about in-game. Here's outside the game.
Outside the game, in the real world, Rosa was the start of what we have now come to see as the "white mage stereotype." The kind, loving, soothing, nurturing woman. She's also the lead female, and like other lead females, she needs to be helped. There are two things here I need to address.
The first, the "white mage stereotype." I don't know which game you started with, and I'm speaking on general terms. Most people started with FF7. This was their introduction to white mages, through Aeris. They then played 8, 9, and 10, and each one had a lead female/white mage type. So here's the problem. After playing these games, the player then goes BACK to playing FF4, the game where it all started... back when all the details weren't fleshed out to the point where you could accept those traits as gimmes and go on to the other traits that the character has. So how does Rosa look in comparison? "Generic." There isn't much emphasis on her noble background, because there's greater emphasis on her loving white mage traits, ones people know to a T today. People are essentially giving Rosa bad marks for having the nerve to be the first one, but not the popular one.
The second, the "damsel-in-distress." Have you bothered to think her through objectively, next to the other leading ladies you have to help? Rosa only needs your help twice throughout the entire game. Aeris needs your help at LEAST twice, if not more time. Garnet has at least three problems (plant monsters, something I can't remember where she ended up having her eidolons taken, and the loss of her voice). Yuna needs help at least three times, thanks to abductions. And, of course, Rinoa. She's not any bit worse than any of the others, it's just that the game isn't as expansive in its script, so Rosa doesn't get a chance to show off her other traits in as outspoken a manner as the other girls.
This is practically a book now, so you probably won't read it, but it's everything I can think of to say right now. There's a lot more to Rosa than you and most anyone else gives her credit for, you just have to look. Will you? Probably not, nobody ever does. I still feel better defending her than letting it run rampant.
Yep. *PaladinCecil* pretty much covers it, Rosa not being as much a damsel in distress as people claim her to be but having them disregard the times where she was strong. Especially when she helps Rydia overcome her fear of fire and when she stops Edge from killing Kain after destroying the Giant of Bab-il.
If you're still not convinced read this thread.
She stopped Edge from killing Kain? I don't remember that. Maybe it's been too long since I played that far into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evastio
And sorry if I sound crazed in some of my posts, I'll try to tone that down... I've just been getting highly frustrated from other places.
Well, I'm not sure if Edge was going to kill Kain but he was quite mad at him and still thought of Kain as a traitor after the Giant of Bab-il was destroyed and they discussed if they should forgive Kain in the Lunar Whale. Even though Rosa probably didn't stop Edge from killing Kain she at least convinced Edge to let Kain fight alongside them and make Edge realize that the evils he commited weren't his fault since he was controlled by Golbez who was controlled by Zemus.
Also, I totally understand your frustration since that happens here on EoFF quite a bit. Even if it's just a game biasedness is always quite irritating no matter what it's about.
I can't help but think this thread was made for the sole purpose of riling the Paladin up. XD
Mullet, Rosa is useful as a healer, we need to ditch Edge and get Yang back cause Edge does crap for damage and gets killed if a monster sneezes on him... :D
I don't mind Rosa, there are far more annoying main heroines that need constant rescuing or has this bad idea of walking straight into danger and dragging the party along *cough Yuna cough Garnet cough* She might have started the idea but she's nowhere near as bad as the doormat and the prissy princess...:mad:
Strategically, I've always found her extremely useful in battle and when you've got a team as large as five, you really need a white mage to look after the others.
I never found Rosa to be that annoying, personally. I think that Rosa and Cecil have a relationship that was built up on mutual attraction and has only grown stronger as a result of their adventuring and through living in Baron. Either that or pure, pure lust.
Annoying has nothing to do with anything. She's not very multi-dimensional, which doesn't necessarily mean she's in any way a bad character.
People need to learn that those two don't always have to go hand in hand. Some of the best characters in the franchise are pretty straight forward.
>>> Rosa was probably the hottest White Mage from the Kingdom of Baron. And Cecil was a guy who didnt know much about the outside world, so I guess he just picked Rosa.
Hey, who's the prissy princess?
I never saw anything with Rosa either and if Cecil didn't have her, it'll been hard for him to heal the entire party.
I would have liked to see a greater emphasis on the other aspects of Rosa other than her supporting, caring nature because these tendencies are generally ignored by the public. Maybe she should have had a moment where she saves the party with archery or something.
Rydia was too young for him.
So he kept his mack going with Rosa.
:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Her white magic was very important (at least to me :p), she was the first one I always revived in a fight.
And what does he see in her? She's brave enough to go after him when she thinks he might be in trouble. She choose him over anybody else, even if nobody knew where exactly he was from. Unlike in some anime and FF, both of them made a clear choice of who they wanted to be with. Kain might like her, but it doesn't really become a boring love-triangle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *PaladinCecil*
You need a life. :greenie:
Cecil and Rosa have got each other's backs (just like me and stu).
Also, they got this thing that's called Radar Love.
I do apologize, but people should not be victimized simply because they lend Insight and Analysis to some of our favorite games, I personally found the analysis of their relationship very interesting, a good read PaladinCecil, as long as you write them, I'll more then likely keep reading them. (As long as it deals with IV... or Tactics, also Crystal Chronicles, that game has a rather deep story). I was just going to post a similar (yet ten times less detailed...) explanation of Rosa and Cecil, but I have no need to do so. Your post hit the nail on the head, wonderful work.Quote:
You need a life. :greenie:
Insight's one thing, but when you write posts as long as this one about a character hardly anyone cares about in a game that's over fifteen years old, you need a life. That's my stance on it anyway. Rosa's a side character (who sucks in my opinion, I'm sick of this stereotypical female "inner strength" and power of love crap that video games keep shoving down our throats) whose personality basically extends to "she loves her friends and hates bad guys." For the record, I hated Aerith, Rinoa, and wasn't fond of Yuna. I liked Garnet, but that's because she had more personality, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighPriestFuneral
People analyze minutiae in literature, why not videogames?
I think the wrong idea was put out here. I don't think PaladinCecil shouldn't care about character in games, that's what makes them so much fun to play. But to care so much about a bland one-dimensional side-character from a game seems kinda.... dorky. But I'm not hating or anything, I know I need a life too. Actually, anyone who comes to a video game forum daily needs a life, quite frankly.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
Kinda weird to call someone in the final battle that was there from the beginning a side character, but anyways, you need to look up the definition of minutiae.
If this were anywhere else, I'd think I was being trolled.
Your thinking I "need a life" loses its worth to me in light of one very, very glaring thing I notice about you: you seem to hate Rosa.
After bashing me for caring about this character, you went on to proclaim your hatred for Rosa as if your view of her "sucking" is gospel truth. You talked about how you loathe a stereotype that wasn't a stereotype when she came around (in fact it's more likely she STARTED the stereotype, and it's especially true that she's the first white mage in the series with her personality type and traits), proving you've written her off as nothing but a cliche. From the instant you wrote her off, you guaranteed you would never see a single thing in her worth noticing. This is like me writing off Rydia as a lame girl power stereotype and saying she sucks for that.
More importantly, you call her a side character when she's not. She's the female lead. The promotional material shows it, the art shows it, her role in the story shows it, everything in the game says Rosa is the female lead.
You want to know the truth? I think you realize there's something more to her that you don't want to admit. Why would you care so much about what one "loser" says about a fictional character you hate, if you didn't realize that on some level what he's saying has merit?
I could have written this nice and soft and flowery and tried to coax you into looking deeper into the character, but honestly? I don't think you would ever want to do that. I think you just want me to be quiet rather than challenge you to question what you think you know as "truth." I don't think anything I say or do would get you to look deeper. It hasn't worked for a lot of people I've met that are like you, why would it start now? So I'm tossing out the naive notion that you might listen, and talking to you openly and head-on.
Admins, mods, I apologize if this breaks any rules or causes any drama you didn't want here, but I had to defend myself AND I had to call him out on it.
Mkay. I don't hate Rosa. I can't hate anyone as paper-thin as Rosa. There's nothing there for me to hate. She's just... there. What I meant by her being a side-character is that she has almost no importance to the overall plot. You have to rescue her a few times, she helps you out a few times, then she more or less becomes nothing but a plot device for Cecil to want to do what he wants to do, until he finds about the Lunarians, etc. I could care less if she's "technically" the female lead, she's still unimportant and (at least for me) hard to get attatched to.Quote:
Originally Posted by *PaladinCecil*
Your idea that she started the stereotype is grossly misinformed, as you seem to think that stereotypes like this were not around before Final Fantasy. Look through games, books, stories, movies, shows, etc. before FFIV came out and I guarantee you'll find more than your fair share of Rosas.
Your arguements about "why would you care about what a loser says blah blah blah" is about the intillectual equivilent of "takes one to know one" (very similar to it anyway) I really don't think you made one good point, and I only stated that you needed a life at first, and only started stating how wrong I felt your position was once people responded to my statement.
By all means, take ff the kid gloves, tell my WHY I should like Rosa. Hell, it's worked before (I used to hate Edward until someone convinced me he wasn't half bad...) I have an open mind when it comes to this kind of thing, but if I can't see a character's merits, then I wont like the character. Plain and simple.
And, by the way, every time I said Rosa sucked, I said something like "imo" or "I'm sick of..." so I'm not saying my view is worth any more than yours, I'm just saying it's my view.
Oh and rubah? I know what minutiae means, and people who obsess over tiny trivial things in literature are just as dorky as people who do it in video games. I meant my response to your statement to cover all forms of media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
First five sentences are a lie.
Rest of the first paragraph ignores that she comforted Cecil all through his time as a Dark Knight, a stable reminder of love and light, especially the kind he has hidden deep inside him, in a time of blood-stained sins. It forgets she went after him across the desert by herself rather than, like some weepy, weak women would do, waiting back home sobbing over the assumed tragic loss of her love. It fails to recognize the role she had in Rydia getting over her fear of fire so they could reach Fabul, and how her very existence and arrival in the crystal room in Fabul at the perfect moment (if you consider the entire set of events, she likely heard how dire it was and rushed to help him from that) kept Kain and Golbez from killing everyone in the party that day.
Your second paragraph misconstrues my entire point. The SPECIFIC white mage stereotype embodied in Rosa BEGAN with Rosa. Characters similar to her with various mixes of traits and personality quirks have existed in fiction prior to this game, but she is the first female lead in the series to offer this exact mix. As a result, she is the template upon which all later characters in her role are based. Yes, Aeris too. But while we're on this thread, they say there's no such thing as a new story, only a new way of telling it. If Rosa is as unoriginal as you claim, so is any character you've ever liked.
Third paragraph is a cover.
I already know any attempt to get you to look deeper into Rosa is doomed to fail, much as I wish I could naively believe otherwise. You busted right out the gate with how much you think Rosa sucks, and I know psychology. The more you repeat something, the more strongly you hold on to it, the truer it is. You aren't coming into this with an open mind. You're coming into it certain that Rosa is a terrible character, and you'll be seeking every way you can to prove that remains the case. This is not an accusation that you knowingly don't want to see more to her, it's me telling you that when you've already made up your mind on an issue, you go through confirmation bias, even subconsciously. And with this character, it's easy to twist everything from a strength into a weakness. I saw one person do it superbly to the point where she sounded more villainous than Golbez.
I don't see how "I'm sick of..." is a statement of knowing it's viewpoint, but that seems like a non-issue to me beyond that it shows you already made up your mind about her, which blinds you to the possibility that you might not have a full picture of who Rosa is and what she's like. "Truth" is subjective in most cases, sure, but you can't strive to the closest thing you can get to an objective perspective if you already "know" with this much certainty that you're right.
You might be replying to this as I type this, but I felt like I should add on.
You have to understand that for the past year, I've seen a lot of people like you say they were open to hearing me out, or claim they'll keep an open mind. Then when it came down to it, they really didn't want to know. They just wanted to see what I had to say so they could find loopholes in the argument to confirm for themselves that how they saw things was accurate.
After a year, I'm tired of childish games. I'm tired of giving the benefit of the doubt, or thinking the best will come out of something when it never does. I don't want to waste my time hoping for the best with someone who pretends to want to hear me out, but really only wants to go through a drawn-out process with an end goal of feeling validated in their initial conclusions. I don't want to waste my time on such people, and would much rather skip to the end so I can do more productive things with my time.
Self-fulfilling prophecy is more than possible with this attitude, but in my experience thus far, the chances of me turning away someone who's genuinely interested are slim to nil.
First sentence fails to give any reason, instead hinging on your beliefs, so will be disregarded. There is nothing more to Rosa than her "love her friends, hate the bad guy" "personality" which is extremely thin no matter which way you slice it.Quote:
Originally Posted by *PaladinCecil*
I admit Rosa did help Cecil through his times of hardness as a DK, and was probably the only one who could have done it. That doesn't give any reason why anyone should like her more. By that logic, everyone should love Palom and Porom because they helped Cecil gain the trust of Mysidia to travel back to Baron and they were the only ones who could have done it.
After that though, she becomes much less important. Rydia probably would have overcome her fears even if Rosa had not been there. It probably would have been better for everyone had Rosa not gone after Cecil in the desert, as her stupidity ended up forcing Cecil and friends to abandon their quest to protect the world from Baron for quite some time while they trecked through three dungeons and two boss battles, just to heal her(imagine if some soldier's wife ran out in the middle of a battlefield in Iraq because she missed him, then got shot, and they had to postpone the war so she could get proper medical treatment.). There's no reason why Golbez wouldn't have killed the rest of the party after kidnapping Rosa, if that's what he wanted to do. Rosa in actuality only gave Golbez time to think that it would be better to leave Cecil and co. alive to get the rest of the crystals for him.
Your "she is the first of the stereotype to have healing magic" argument is just stupid.The reason I brought that up was because you said people hated Rosa for being a stereotype. You argued that she wasn't, but was rather a starter of the stereotype. I argued that she was the first of her kind in an FF game, but was still a stereotype, which is a valid reason for disliking a character. You then proceeded to argue that if it hadn't been done in an FF game specifically, then it was somehow new and fresh and not a stereotype. Fact is, she's a stereotype. No stereotype is instantly bad, but what if (get ready to wrap your mind around this) there were certain stereotypes... that not everybody liked!! I for one know more than most people that there are no new ideas out there, but that's not to say all ideas are good ideas.
Advice: don't ever get into suicide hotline as a career. I can see you now. "Well, you're already saying you're gonna kill yourself, so nothing I say or do will change your mind. Thanks for calling Suicide Hotline!" One thing that's become blatantly obvious is that you yourself have a vehemently closed mind, and refuse to take any criticism towards Rosa. Heaven forbid you acknowledge that there are people who don't like her. All my arguments are stating how I dislike her, not why everyone else should dislike her.
I also love who you have to convince yourself that anyone who disagrees with you is, instead of holding a valid opinion, just tricking themselves. Suddenly if I'm not in love with a character who's as deep as the shallow end of a thimble, I'm blinding myself to the truth. Nice.
I can't help but compare you to FFVII fanboys who would kill someone and their dog for making fun of Cloud, or (dare I say it?) a religious folk.
You kids are so cute when you act like you should be able to change each other's minds, and if you can't, it's obviously because the other guy isn't paying attention.
If you're tired of this, then why even post those long-winded responses to people who bash her? I'm not here to have an argument, but rather a debate. If you want, I'd be willing to end it right now, agreeing to disagree, no hard feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by *PaladinCecil*
I like you. Nothing else, that felt necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Nice and convenient way to write it off. Predictable. As always. I don't blame you though, since I did insult you by calling you a liar. What I'd say you should find more interesting here is that instead of demanding me to prove it, you illogically said my calling you a liar means all my points are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
I want to read through the rest of your post and respond to your every point and all but... I don't care. I know you're giving it a good old try, but I'm tired of dealing with people like you. If you really wanted to know, you would've taken the high road, refrained from insults, and made me feel like a jerk for jumping to such immediate conclusions about you. To put it another way, you would have attempted to bring me down to civility so we COULD have an open debate.
You're going to follow this up with a post about how I must be wrong if I don't argue with you more. And I'm not going to care.
Well, that's not entirely true. You would've if hadn't said that. Now I don't know what you'll do.
I wish you the best in life. And I'm genuine in saying that.
Sorry for double-posting, but I wanted to add: thanks, everyone, for defending me in my stead while I wasn't here.
These are more nerdier than Zelda timeline debates
And that is saying a lot
Know what I think pisses PalCec off so much about this Arcane fellow? Not only does he hate Rosa, he rubs it in PalCec face as much as possible, just so he can spite him. Seriously, PalCec may be overdoing it at times with his Rosa love, but the Rosa haters are no better off, and certainly not Arcane here. Every one of his posts has the same sentence again and again "she's bland, boring, sucks blablabla". Granted, happens to Paladin at times too.
Just forget about it PalCec, it's a lost battle. Let the dreamers in their small world where Aeris began it all and Rosa and earlier are copies of her. Let the poor in their believes that IV was the first to have a developed storyline. They will always just brush of any valid arguement you make with the 'personal opinion' and stuff thing.
Personally, I'm against personal opinion in some cases. But what can you do about it...
It is not your place to make judgments about everyone who visits this forum on a daily or recurring basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
On the topic at hand, I think that the limitations of the storyline in its current form denies Rosa the proper screen time or development that she could have had judging from her character. The Nintendo DS version lets you see her thoughts in reacting to certain events showing, clearly, that she has a distinct opinion from Cecil and is aware of the situation around her.
You're right, that's why I stopped arguing with him. I've started finding ways to save my time with people like him, and he proved vividly that he just wants to flaunt how much he hates a perfectly fine character but keep his conscience (though maybe that's too strong of a word) clean by pretending he has an open mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
It is. I am one of those people.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoogleIt is not your place to make judgments about everyone who visits this forum on a daily or recurring basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
And since when did FFVII fanboys become FFIV fanboys? Cuz you guys are being just as pigheaded as those FFVII fanboys everyone hates.
If you actually bothered to read through the thread, you'll find that I never claimed my beliefs to be any more than beliefs, and I am entitled to them. And don't go off about "Oh you're just saying this to fool yourself into thinking you won" because not only did I not start this argument, I was actually the one who first offered to end it. I only made a joking statement about PaladinCecil, which, when confronted, I defended myself (which would be a good enough excuse for PaladinCecil, because you AGREE with his opinions, but nt for me, because I'm the one who's wrong here)
Not only were there no good points that I didn't address, you wrote off all of my points without even considering them. Even in the context of a debate with both sides adamant int their beliefs, that's just stupid.
I'm not dreaming in a world where Aeris started it all. I'm not stupid. I can't believe that because I don't like Rosa, suddenly I'm a moron and am tricking myself into thinking she's terrible. Believe it or not, I actually thought about this in bed the other night. I wondered if I was being too pigheaded, and tried to redeem Rosa to myself, but I literally couldn't think of anything I liked about her. Of course you wont believe me, because as you read this, I'm sure you're thinking "He's just saying that, he doesn't mean it" or something similar.
I come to these forums to have debates about Final Fantasy because I love it (Final Fantasy, not debating) but when someone won't acknowledge ANY of your points at all, and instead INSULTS you when you don't share their beliefs, then you're no better than FFVII fanboys who think the first VI FFs were practice for VII.
So? I'm an Italian person, I can't speak for all Italian people.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34It is. I am one of those people.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoogleIt is not your place to make judgments about everyone who visits this forum on a daily or recurring basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
It's a little different, I'm not speaking for everyone here, I'm making a statement about everyone here (maybe not everyone). Making a statement that a bunch of nerds like us isn't the same things as speaking for an entire country.
You have no right to speak for 24,524 people (total members of the site), and that's all there is about that. Going to a forum doesn't dictate whether or not you have a life. You're categorizing people, its the same thing as if I said all Southerners are bigots or all Asian people are smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
Apparently you haven't noticed PaladinCecil's posts are almost exactly the same as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
I've know PalCec for a while and found he actually makes some valid points about Rosa and her underratedness most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393Apparently you haven't noticed PaladinCecil's posts are almost exactly the same as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
And Arcane, dream on. Whatever it takes to make you happy.
I do feel that Rosa gets the shaft a lot but she is quite important cause she (and most of IV's cast) are used as templates or archetypes by later games in the series. Most of the female leads in FF fall into her template and the only difference that separates her from them is that whereas it can be claimed she's the original and has her faults, the others are terrible in that they don't develop farther than the original.
I consider Rosa to actually have more going for her personality wise than Yuna or Aerith and even the few who do have a few unique niches they fall into ( Lenna, Rinoa, Garnet, and possibly Penelo) it doesn't change that they are still very close to the original. I guess what I'm saying is that its hard to slam Rosa for being a cliche when she technically started it for this particular genre.
Personally, I find Yuna to be more two dimensional than Rosa if only cause Rosa can fall back on two things: She started the cliche and technology limitations. Yuna has neither to fall back on. Even then I felt Rosa did more to show her strength and the fact that she wasn't smurfing retarded than other female leads. She follows Cecil even after he's exiled from his homeland, she forgives Kain despite his treachery, she guides Rydia despite only barely knowing her, and she follows Cecil to the bitter end of their journey despite it being a loss cause to begin with. She has devotion, compassion, and resilience. I can't see these qualities and still think of her as a mere two dimensional cliche. She may have never had much dialogue but her actions speak much louder than words ever could.
I thought they both made pretty good points. Some better than others, but still...Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpizoI've know PalCec for a while and found he actually makes some valid points about Rosa and her underratedness most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393Apparently you haven't noticed PaladinCecil's posts are almost exactly the same as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
And Arcane, dream on. Whatever it takes to make you happy.
I don't know. As touching as it is, going out into the desert blindly to find your presumably dead lover alone seems a bit retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
She probably had to go alone, and besides, love can make you do odd things.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393[
I don't know. As touching as it is, going out into the desert blindly to find your presumably dead lover alone seems a bit retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
[quote=Sir Lancealot;2566045]That doesn't make her choice any less retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393
[quote=sdm42393;2566152]No less retarded than going to an abandoned city alone to summon Holy and only telling the unconscious person, despite the fact its proven this will thwart the villain and he has this uncanny ability to go whereever he pleases, tagging along with a military group as a civilian and constantly needing to be rescued whenQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir LancealotThat doesn't make her choice any less retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393
hits the fan, going alone to face your mother who has obviously made it clear she is both insane and wants your powers for her own, misleading your friends and outright lying to them so you can place yourself in mortal danger by facing a known murder alone so you can punish him for his crimes despite the plot making it clear that she can't fight her way out of a paper bag without her guardians...
Somehow forsaking your country and following your love through a desert; to see if he is alive doesn't seem as stupid. :p
But the thing is, she didn't start the cliche.. Sure she may be the first FINAL FANTASY heroine to have these traits, but she is DEFINATELY not the first ever character to have these traits, so I don't see how she can fall back on that. I do agree with the argument about technical limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
How is that ANY different than what Rosa did with the desert anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I understand she didn't start the cliche in literature but she did for gaming. The difference is that most games fall back upon previous characters within the gaming genre. Most gaming characters fall into categories from older games rather than older pieces of literature. Course I always feel they say this cause "intellectuals" will be damned if they compare a video game character to literary or historical figures. :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34But the thing is, she didn't start the cliche.. Sure she may be the first FINAL FANTASY heroine to have these traits, but she is DEFINATELY not the first ever character to have these traits, so I don't see how she can fall back on that. I do agree with the argument about technical limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Rosa's actions were not certain death. She followed Cecil, made it to a town (before him) and caught ill. The other characters walked straight into certain death situations without the aid of others cause they felt it was the right thing to do and had some misguided mothering instinct try to protect everyone. Which resulted in all the characters placing their lives in jeopardy to save them while the situation snowballed cause of the female leads actions. The other female leads had options and they chose the most foolish ones. I don't see Rosa's actions being stupid or misguided, she just caught a bit of misfortune. She also only did this once, while the others continue to make stupid decisions.Quote:
How is that ANY different than what Rosa did with the desert anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
That raises a good (non-related) question: How did Rosa somehow manage to get to Kaipo (I think, I haven't played IV in a while) before Cecil? That would require crossing through a monster-infested dungeon, traversing several mountains (made by Titan) and somehow knowing that Cecil would indeed head to Kaipo instead of going to Baron, and then somehow make it there with enough time left over to contract a local disease and be taken in by a random couple. That's pretty funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I am not sure. I think that I would have liked to see that addressed in the game because it appears that there is only one way to Kaipo from Baron and the only way that Rosa could have arrived in Kaipo as soon as she did was if she was found the night that Cecil and Rydia arrived in Kaipo and went immediately to the Inn.
Actually, I just thought of something. Maybe she wandered into Mist at the exact instant Rydia summoned Titan. Maybe Rosa was then ejected high into the air, landed in the desert by Kaipo (falling unconscious of course) and was left in the desert long enough to contract desert fever. Then, just before Cecil showed up, the couple found Rosa and brought her in.
I'm responding without real reference to who suggested who, because I'm scanning the thread and writing as I do it.
A quote from Rosa that guarantees she did not trail them and get caught up in Titan.
Rosa: They told me you'd died in the earthquake at Mist. But...I knew it couldn't be true.
The quote was taken from here: GameFAQs: Final Fantasy IV (DS) Game Script by RevenantThings
I used to think that Rosa arrived in Kaipo before Cecil, but I don't know where the impression came from. You don't get to talk to anyone in Kaipo until you wake up the next morning. I found no dialogue from NPCs saying she was already there before you, which leaves it open that she arrived anywhere between what happened at Mist and shortly before Cecil and Rydia woke up in the Inn.
We've been discussing Rosa's possible paths over at GameFAQs for a bit now. The discussion makes me happy, because it acknowledges that Rosa getting there is an important element of the story too that you don't see straight out. Currently, it's at either Rosa took a small boat/raft along the eastern shore (this is going under the idea that the airships were naval ships until recently) and walked once getting to shore, or she took a mountain pass not shown (of course, utilizing a chocobo until she got to the pass). It's also been thrown around a bit that she maybe stowed away on an airship, but other surrounding information seems to me like that's entirely unlikely.
Wolf_Kanno makes a good point about Rosa compared to other leads. The first time you need to help her, it happens unexpectedly, and it's something completely unavoidable; looking down on Rosa for getting Desert Fever is like looking down on someone for getting pneumonia. And in Fabul, it's not like Rosa had any options. Her abduction is as much the fault of Kain (Golbez can see she has some power over him because Kain hesitates to kill Cecil) and Cecil (he calls her name, showing that he cares about her) as it is her own. Actually, I'm trying to think of how any of that scene is Rosa's "fault" but I can't... and I'm dead serious, please illustrate how it is if you can. She DID need to be there, otherwise Cecil would be a carcass on the end of Kain's spear.
Rosa didn't start the general cliche in literature. She started it in the Final Fantasy series. She was the first character to break ground on that now all too common "white mage stereotype," something many people who started later in the series do not grasp for a mix of reasons. The most obvious is that it's so common they assume it's always been there. The second, perhaps less obvious one is that most people started with Aeris, and therefore consciously or subconsciously see her as the person who started it all, and from there it's really a matter of awareness. If they don't realize it, they're just trying to hold EVERY character to Aeris standards; if they DO realize it, and they're a hardcore Aeris fan, it could be a little less benign than that (meaning they could be against her because her being there before Aeris makes Aeris a little less special than they thought).
I don't use this as a serious argument, but one amusing tidbit of note: when you're at the Golden Saucer and Cloud and Aeris (I forget if it can be any girl, I always remember it with Aeris) have to perform as the leads in the play, the girl is named Rosa. This certainly raises a lot of questions, doesn't it?
GameFAQs: Final Fantasy VII (PS) Game Script by Asch The Hated
Narration: Long, long ago... An evil shadow appeared over the peaceful kingdom of Galdia... Princess Rosa was just kidnapped by the Evil Dragon King, Valvados. What will become of her? Just then, the legendary hero, Alfred appears!!
As far as Rosa taking off on her own, Cid was busy. The King sent troops out with explicit orders to off Rydia and kill Cecil if he raises resistance. We have no clue what happened with Kain, though we can be pretty sure that he wasn't really one of the people who either would or could go look for him. The Red Wings... I have no clue what the heck they were up to, I guess just sitting around? By all appearances, Rosa's the only one who cared enough to look for Cecil not to kill him.
Rosa getting sick does put a damper on the progress to Fabul, and her being a bargaining chip for Golbez is a negative event for her. And maybe there would've been a better way for her to reach Cecil, maybe she could've found a way to get Kain to come with her if she were in Baron for a little longer.
I think I'm getting too tired, but what I'm trying to say is that there are negatives to the events surrounding Rosa, but that's not ALL there is to Rosa and they're DEFINITELY not as bad as people always make them sound. If she's the worst example of a female lead, then let's look at Cecil.
He steals from the Mysidians and torches a village (under the king's orders, which excuses his actions, but still). He fails to reach Damcyan before an attack and fails to defend the crystal, Rosa and even himself in Fabul. Several people "die" in the course of the game so he can continue the journey (the twins, Cid, Yang, Tellah...). When he tries to keep the crystals in the Dwarven Castle and the Sealed Cave safe, he just lets them fall into enemy clutches. He also fails to steal them back. Finally, he and the rest of the party would have died trying to fight Zeromus if not for the prayers of everyone from the Blue Planet. There are enough failures for him to fill a paragraph.
In case it's not obvious, I don't think that Cecil sucks as a character, and this isn't REALLY an ultimatum, an "if Rosa sucks then Cecil sucks too." The point I'm trying to get across here is that perspective is important. If you're only looking for the bad, all you're going to see is the bad. If you look only at the above, Cecil's a complete failure without help, and even then he usually doesn't accomplish his goals. If you look at the good too, how he redeemed Baron from the clutches of a fake king or how he fought the darkness inside him and became a better person for it, you can see he's NOT a failure. The same can be said of Rosa.