Whats your favorite military branch?
mine is the Marines for the fact that mhen i turn 18 im joining them OORAH!!!
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Whats your favorite military branch?
mine is the Marines for the fact that mhen i turn 18 im joining them OORAH!!!
SeeD.
The Navy's pretty sexy.
sorry i meant real branches lol. The SeeDs r pretty badass though:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
Well.. My brother in law is in the Army.
My husband graduates Army basic training in 3 weeks.
So I may be quite biased when I say the Army is my favorite branch. :D
The naval reserves, US' 14th line of defense.
Right after the national gaurd and just before the league of women voters.
ONE
TWO
THREE
FOUR
I
LOVE
MARINE
CORPS!!!
Oh okay. My favourite force of death and destruction is the airforce. They seem to be the best at killing people.Quote:
Originally Posted by loinhartesorry i meant real branches lol. The SeeDs r pretty badass though:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
I love the Marine Corps.
anything but the marines
airforce ftw
You're pretty far from the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynast-Kid
I do not like the military at all.
You said right there man. OORAH!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Hartman
Whats wrong with the Marines?Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Name
I don't even know the difference between navy and marines. And national guard, what. Army has guns, airforce has planes, navy go on ships, and so do marines? :p And national guard sounds like lifeguard.
Marines have guns and they do most of the fronline fighting then the army comes and cleans up the mess we left, navy... i dont even no,airforce fly and bomb places cause they dont no how to fight on the ground:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jojee
I'm gonna say Air Force cause planes are fast and shiny.
The Navy has ships that they use for warfare, which the Marines hitch a ride on to do warfare on the land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojee
The Marines and the Army both are ground units, but the Marines focus is much more narrow. Essentially, the Marines get there first and secure and area and then the Army takes over it. The Army has many many more people in it.
The Airforce obviously uses jets, much like the Navy does, but they are land based, not carrier based. The Airforce also does a lot of science research.
The National Guard is just a basic fighting force. Pretty much.
That is it, but pretty generalized.
I chose the Marines because they have a reputation for being the best and most honorable. There are also less of them. The fact that every Marine is a rifleman first and his MOS(occupation) second also drew me in. I wanted to be useful. The challenge of Marine fitness was piqued my interest as well. Which is why I joined. And is why I will be leaving for boot camp September 15th. Oorah.
I had no idea the military was so complicated. How does one secure an area anyway? :o And navy uses jets? xD I thought they were just limited to floating/water things...!
Anyway I only know people in the army. :o
Lul wut.Quote:
Originally Posted by loinharteMarines have guns and they do most of the fronline fighting then the army comes and cleans up the mess we left, navy... i dont even no,airforce fly and bomb places cause they dont no how to fight on the ground:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jojee
The airforce does way more than just fly and bomb places. I think you should do some research into the all areas of the military before joining.
That being said, the airfoce is win. Most of my family are in the airforce.
thats pretty much the same reason im joining, but i have to graduate first then in november im goin for bootcamp. OORAH!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZThe Navy has ships that they use for warfare, which the Marines hitch a ride on to do warfare on the land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojee
The Marines and the Army both are ground units, but the Marines focus is much more narrow. Essentially, the Marines get there first and secure and area and then the Army takes over it. The Army has many many more people in it.
The Airforce obviously uses jets, much like the Navy does, but they are land based, not carrier based. The Airforce also does a lot of science research.
The National Guard is just a basic fighting force. Pretty much.
That is it, but pretty generalized.
I chose the Marines because they have a reputation for being the best and most honorable. There are also less of them. The fact that every Marine is a rifleman first and his MOS(occupation) second also drew me in. I wanted to be useful. The challenge of Marine fitness was piqued my interest as well. Which is why I joined. And is why I will be leaving for boot camp September 15th. Oorah.
The one not waging a sham of a foreign policy. Oh wait.
my bad i only do research on the best...Marines, im not disin anybody who r not in or joining the Marines and i respect all of the armed forces wether it be Army, Navy, Marines, or AirforceQuote:
Originally Posted by BalzacLul wut.Quote:
Originally Posted by loinharteMarines have guns and they do most of the fronline fighting then the army comes and cleans up the mess we left, navy... i dont even no,airforce fly and bomb places cause they dont no how to fight on the ground:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jojee
The airforce does way more than just fly and bomb places. I think you should do some research into the all areas of the military before joining.
That being said, the airfoce is win. Most of my family are in the airforce.
[QUOTE=loinharte;2527694]If you didn't do any research on the others than how do you know that the Marines are the best? I won't even say that they actually are the best, they are just the best for me. I know this because I immersed myself in research in making such a big decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac
Airforce would be my second choice, btw. Actually, they probably would have been my first, but I neglected too much in school to make that work for me the way I would want it too.
SAS, mothersmurfer.
[QUOTE=IBPengwynZ;2527698]then its been said the Marines are awesome. but i just started doin research im goin to look into the other forces. I think ill go with the Marines even with researching the othersQuote:
Originally Posted by loinharteIf you didn't do any research on the others than how do you know that the Marines are the best? I won't even say that they actually are the best, they are just the best for me. I know this because I immersed myself in research in making such a big decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac
Airforce would be my second choice, btw. Actually, they probably would have been my first, but I neglected too much in school to make that work for me the way I would want it too.
:love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
The King of Sparta's 300 personal bodyguards.
Oh, and my cousin's in the Air Force so I'd go with that.
The Marines are part of the Navy.
My Grandpa was in the navy, so I'll say that. (He was is both the war in Italy and D-Day)
I think you'll fit in really well with the Marines.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZthen its been said the Marines are awesome. but i just started doin research im goin to look into the other forces. I think ill go with the Marines even with researching the othersQuote:
Originally Posted by loinharteIf you didn't do any research on the others than how do you know that the Marines are the best? I won't even say that they actually are the best, they are just the best for me. I know this because I immersed myself in research in making such a big decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac
Airforce would be my second choice, btw. Actually, they probably would have been my first, but I neglected too much in school to make that work for me the way I would want it too.
People saying this has always bothered me. We are a sister(or brother) unit to the Navy. We do not operate under the Navy, but we often operate with the Navy. We are not part of the Navy.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyxsora
We operate differently from the Navy as well. We do land fighting, typically near large bodies of water. We are the bridge between the Navy and the Army. We secure the land near the water for the Army, and for the Navy.
The Secretary of the Navy though, does administrate the Marines, as well as the Navy. But he does so separately.
Research is always good. My husband was going to orginally join the navy..Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZQuote:
Originally Posted by loinharteIf you didn't do any research on the others than how do you know that the Marines are the best? I won't even say that they actually are the best, they are just the best for me. I know this because I immersed myself in research in making such a big decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac
Airforce would be my second choice, btw. Actually, they probably would have been my first, but I neglected too much in school to make that work for me the way I would want it too.
That was up until he realized that he didn't really have any choice in his MOS. Basically his ASVAB score decided that and that worried him because he hadn't been in a school setting for like.. 6 years and he was afraid of doing bad (which he didn't. xD ), he got his dream job (literally) with the army. Basically his job choices were between combat (obviously everyone gets that choice), medic, or communications. We were lucky enough to get the EXACT job he wanted which was 25Q (A big word for a guy who makes sure wires haven't been tapped and an all around cable and wireless frequency guy), not only did he get the job he wanted but he maxed out with a lovely 40grand bonus. It shall be a good christmas this year (we'll be seeing 20k of it in december). Really though, getting the max bonus AND the job he wanted was pure luck.
My sister joined the navy, but then found out at her last physical before she shipped off to what ever the navy basic training is, that she was pregnant. So.. they released her and what not. Either way, she scored the best in the engineering side of the ASVAB, so she got an engineer job. No I know none of you know my sister but no one in the family could even fathom her working this job because.. it's just not something she would want to do. She wanted to be a medic, but of course since you don't get a choice with the navy and since she scored highest in the engineering line score, she got engineer instead.
For us, it was between the Navy and the Army but after doing research and what not. The Army was the best choice for him and his family (AKA me and our unborn child).
Wow. I never realized quite how well your Bruce got off. 40k is an amazing bonus. And I can see how the Navy wouldn't have been a good choice. Being on a ship so much can suck. Ironic for me to say, as I literally grew up on and around boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
I was lucky enough to get the exact job I wanted. Aircraft Mechanic. I don't know what specific aircraft I will get yet, but that doesn't really concern me. :)
Yeah, my sister has alot of army wife friends and all they can say to his bonus and job is "They're going to have it A LOT easier than most family's starting off".Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZWow. I never realized quite how well your Bruce got off. 40k is an amazing bonus. And I can see how the Navy wouldn't have been a good choice. Being on a ship so much can suck. Ironic for me to say, as I literally grew up on and around boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
I was lucky enough to get the exact job I wanted. Aircraft Mechanic. I don't know what specific aircraft I will get yet, but that doesn't really concern me. :)
We were -very- lucky. There was one "seat" left for the job, the job was high-priority and Secruity Clearanced at that. Due to the fact they -needed- that one "seat" filled, that was the bonus offered, my bro-in-law (our recruiter) nearly crapped himself because Bruce was the first person he had seen in the time he's been a recruiter to get the maxed out bonus, the highest before that was like.. 39,700$. xD
There was a radio technician job with a 20k bonus which we looked at first, my bro-in-law's system crashed and when he reloaded it the job options went from about 5 jobs to 20 jobs. If his system wouldn't have crashed and him reload it we would have never have even known about the 25Q being available. (He thinks the position was taken at some point (reserved until they pass everything and sign the enlistment contract), but then someone went to the MEPS and failed their physical or security clearance within the time of us looking because that would be why the job popped up at random)
And congrats on getting your job! I've heard a lot of people bitch and moan about not getting the job they want and.. well not expecting that as a possiblity for some reason. When it comes to jobs and the military, it's pure luck. A couple of years ago my bro-in-law was a tanker, then the army said "NO MORE TANKING FOR YOU" and now he's a recruiter for 3 more years, honestly he hates it because he loved being a tanker because he had done so for 11 years, but he also recognized that the "needs of the military" can easily take a job or give a job that you may or may not like.
Because the Marines are the poor idiots who get dumped into the direct line of fire tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by loinharteYou said right there man. OORAH!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Hartman
Whats wrong with the Marines?Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Name
The Marines are tied to the Navy. And while they do a wide variety of tasks, are technically under the administration of the Navy.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZPeople saying this has always bothered me. We are a sister(or brother) unit to the Navy. We do not operate under the Navy, but we often operate with the Navy. We are not part of the Navy.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyxsora
Some people like being in the direct line of fire or having a type of combat job.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoBecause the Marines are the poor idiots who get dumped into the direct line of fire tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by loinharteYou said right there man. OORAH!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Hartman
Whats wrong with the Marines?Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Name
My bro-in-law's best friend joined the army for the sole purpose of getting the chance to run around and shoot things. He's got a purple heart from his first Iraq tour back in 2003 and is going back to Iraq at the end of this year because he got reactivated after being on IRR from being shot before.
Is he stoked about going to Iraq and doing what he did before even knowing he's already been shot and taken out once?
He seriously is, he's doing what he likes to do.
I don't care how I kill people, I'll just go with whichever branch has the best uniform to get me women.
I vote for Air Force, as I have a strong attachment for it. My dad is ex-Air Force, and there are a lot of British (and US!) air bases in the general geographical areas. A lot of the lads round here join up just to get the hell out of here! :p
P.S: Good luck with joining the Marines, loinharte! :) I actually have a friend, on another board, who joined not long ago. It's tough from what I understand, but worth it.
The Militairy is a lie.
I would choose Coast Guard, because they are more baout saving lies then killing people, some of which do not even do anything wrong!
So I will not vote.
Technically, the coastguard is an emergency service. But I think you do have a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
The Marines are administratively part of the Department of the Navy but they operate under their own branch of the US Military. Which is what he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyxsoraThe Marines are tied to the Navy. And while they do a wide variety of tasks, are technically under the administration of the Navy.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZPeople saying this has always bothered me. We are a sister(or brother) unit to the Navy. We do not operate under the Navy, but we often operate with the Navy. We are not part of the Navy.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyxsora
Wow, what a great reason to join up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
I like my shirt because my shirt says Army.
Army Army Army
Army Army Army
A is for Army
R is for Army
M is for Army
Y is for Army
:p
I know. But the Coast Guard is precisely that-an EMERGENCY service.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallulahTechnically, the coastguard is an emergency service. But I think you do have a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
It may not seem like a great reason to join, assuming that is sarcasm. But it's what the guy wanted to do, so to each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by BalzacWow, what a great reason to join up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
All the letter's in the alphabet are for Army!Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
Territorial Army is where it's at. Yeah, you come and invade us. Just you wait until the weekend and the TA comes after you, then you'll be sorry.
The Mobile Infantry plz.
airforce => early astronauts
I always wanted to be in the airforce as a kid but nothing other than fighter pilot would satisfy me and I am sorry to say not that good at physics. I could have done a lot better but a teacher essentially caused me to rebel in his classes thus not doing much to pass physics damn my childish behaviour aged 13 for not allowing me to get the job I'd have loved to do.
I considered joining the army but my best mates mom used to be a sargeant and when we spoke about it she said I'd be good in the army and enjoy it but only if I learnt to control my tongue since I'm way too sarcastic for my own good and in the army that would land me in lots of trouble. I also would probably end up in logistics and well the idea of merely being a clerk responsible for the shipping of goods is not a nice idea.
Navy appeals to me because I like the idea of sailing around the world going port to port. However as stated by others, being on a ship where you have no choice about your role and it could be waste disposal 24/7 is not fun also restricted shore leave = sucky.
In a gross wrongdoing by the british government I actually now earn more money in retail than the average basic army trooper earns per hour. I'm still on probation in my job and when my wages go up at the end of it I'll be earning over £1 an hour more. When you consider 37.5 hours a week work, with my holidays ect at 7.73 an hour it's a lot more than a soldier gets paid and I don't have to get shot at in my job.
I like the SAS. Particularly, my country's SAS. Respected as one the best special forces groups in the world. Awesome stuff.
Lack of Coast Guard = epic fail.
Both of my parents were kinda in the Air Force so I'm gonna go with that. Plus I got to live in Japan for a while cause of the Air Force. :D
SAS > anything else ever. Did anyone see that SAS vs. Marines or something thing on TV. SAS were all done drinking tea by the time the Americans finished. xD
That was probably the happiest moment in my life. I'm very competitive when it comes to things I can't and don't do.
e.g. WHAT THE smurf REF?!
Airforce, as a lot of my family have been in the RAAF. I have crap all knowledge of armed forces, so I'm not adding any other comments
Military uniforms look hot, but other than that I'm generally not a fan of the military.
Being in the military is the last thing on my mind. I'm not a physical activity person cause I'm well, too damn lazy. Maybe the Army and be a medic. :D
SOLDIER.
thanx. i new thw marines r for me:pQuote:
Originally Posted by BunnyI think you'll fit in really well with the Marines.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZthen its been said the Marines are awesome. but i just started doin research im goin to look into the other forces. I think ill go with the Marines even with researching the othersQuote:
Originally Posted by loinharteIf you didn't do any research on the others than how do you know that the Marines are the best? I won't even say that they actually are the best, they are just the best for me. I know this because I immersed myself in research in making such a big decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac
Airforce would be my second choice, btw. Actually, they probably would have been my first, but I neglected too much in school to make that work for me the way I would want it too.
> >; Bunny made the comment because.. people who are in the marine's or who are large fans of the marine's without good knowledge of other branches tend to be OBSENELY biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by loinhartethanx. i new thw marines r for me:pQuote:
Originally Posted by BunnyI think you'll fit in really well with the Marines.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBPengwynZthen its been said the Marines are awesome. but i just started doin research im goin to look into the other forces. I think ill go with the Marines even with researching the othersQuote:
Originally Posted by loinharteIf you didn't do any research on the others than how do you know that the Marines are the best? I won't even say that they actually are the best, they are just the best for me. I know this because I immersed myself in research in making such a big decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac
Airforce would be my second choice, btw. Actually, they probably would have been my first, but I neglected too much in school to make that work for me the way I would want it too.
Granted, it can be said that all people who prefer a certain part of a branch are biased but it's usually their reasons.
Basically, you having done no research on other branches and using the idea that "the marine's are awesome" as your reasoning for wanting to join and being so gun-ho about it, is what would make you a good Marine, because really NOTHING is going to sway you out of the "OMG MARINE'S" mindset.
Personally, when I was looking into joining a military branch, I was going to join the Navy. Obviously the fact I have an army recruiter bro-in-law who's been like my older brother for 10 years and that I married a man who was recruited into the army by my bro-in-law makes me very biased. But biased or not, I still am able to admit that I would PERSONALLY prefer the Navy, not because of reasons that "they are awesome" more so because the Army's just not my idea of how I'd want to spend my life, where as being on a boat for mass amounts of times is. While the Army has been apart of my life for the past ten years (my sister and bro-in-law basically raised me), I still believe the Navy is my cup of tea, even with all the Army influences.
Actually I made the comment because of the "Marines are stupid" stereotype. Now that I've explained my post, the mods are going to harp on me or something crazy like that. Thanks a lot for interpreting my post wrong and getting me in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
Also, the Navy isn't purely about being on a ship (which is the phrase you should use when talking about the Navy, otherwise you will get yelled at by anyone in the Navy). The 3 years that I spent in the military were all spent on shore at a station that was never even visited by a ship. Also, there is a good chance that you would get sent over to Afghanistan, Iraq, or Africa because we are currently in a time of war. The only way to get out of being sent over there is to have a good medical reason not to go. Pregnancy is a good one, having a child is not. I know two people in particular (husband and wife), who were both sent over to Afghanistan and Africa, respectively, despite having two children under the age of 5. Also, from what I have gathered from talking to people who have been assigned sea duty, it is both the most horrifyingly difficult experience of ones life and also the greatest. I never understood the latter.
P.S. About the Warzone thing, it doesn't matter if your job is clerical or airplane mechanic or pilot, during a time of war the chances of you being sent over to the Middle East are about 85% without a good medical excuse.
edit: Also I use Also a lot.
Navy SEALs are also pretty badass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
And being in a non-deployable unit, usually a Headquarters and Service Company.
First off, there's no reason for YOU to get in trouble from an interpretation that I made. That would be irrational to say the least. Essentially though I said the same thing, only with more wording. If you're not going to take the time to research and become "smart" about something that would make you quite the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyActually I made the comment because of the "Marines are stupid" stereotype. Now that I've explained my post, the mods are going to harp on me or something crazy like that. Thanks a lot for interpreting my post wrong and getting me in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
Also, the Navy isn't purely about being on a ship (which is the phrase you should use when talking about the Navy, otherwise you will get yelled at by anyone in the Navy). The 3 years that I spent in the military were all spent on shore at a station that was never even visited by a ship. Also, there is a good chance that you would get sent over to Afghanistan, Iraq, or Africa because we are currently in a time of war. The only way to get out of being sent over there is to have a good medical reason not to go. Pregnancy is a good one, having a child is not. I know two people in particular (husband and wife), who were both sent over to Afghanistan and Africa, respectively, despite having two children under the age of 5. Also, from what I have gathered from talking to people who have been assigned sea duty, it is both the most horrifyingly difficult experience of ones life and also the greatest. I never understood the latter.
P.S. About the Warzone thing, it doesn't matter if your job is clerical or airplane mechanic or pilot, during a time of war the chances of you being sent over to the Middle East are about 85% without a good medical excuse.
edit: Also I use Also a lot.
I'm very very very aware that if you sign up you know that there's a chance of you going over seas no matter your job. If and when my husband goes to Iraq, I will cope with that just like every other military wife does (minus half of the one's who divorce their husbands while in Iraq and steal their money) If it wasn't for my husband joining the army, I'd be in the navy or SOME branch, but now I don't even have to work so it's a thought I don't even need to deal with. But yeah, I'd sign up even knowing of the greater chances that I got sent over seas, would it stop me from signing up? Not at all.
Here's how I think, if you don't like the idea of getting sent to a warzone at any point in your enlistment (or even reactivated during your 4 years after release), don't join. It's -that- simple. When you sign those papers, you -should- know what you're getting into, joining the military isn't like going to work for a department store if you're going to go try to get into it and join blindly then.. well (and this may be snipped) you deserve to be sent to Iraq JUST so you can understand what your job TRULY entails.
Sorry to say it like that, but it's the truth.
To all those who are saying that they want to join: Do you fully accept and understand that you will most likely be over seas at some point in your enlistment? Do you understand that the military isn't just an easy job to get money? Are you willing to go through the physical and mental anguish at points to become a soilder of the military?
If you said yes to all the above then.. serisously you have no reason to not join, and congrats. For some reason, there are still people who want to join who will say no to the above.
It's amazing. e e
Well.. Imma say Marines since im from a family of them. And from what ive seen in the Air Force so far it's pretty much rubbish. except that we do kill gooder.
too bad i cant vote coast guard...
None. I don't care for military.
hm. tough call, really. i am joining the army soon, but i would have to say my favorite is the marines, simply because they are so damn awesome when it comes to pretty much everything. but, in case you didn't know, there is also a branch of spies that is classified as a military branch like the guy from burn notice (doing all the cool covert stuff, except in other countries) so if that were on here i would vote for them. army has the best jodies, btw.
...although, navy seals are teh shiznit.
i guess it would have to marines. for now. whatever.
That's one of the worst jobs for a lzy person to have, screwing everyone else over.Quote:
Being in the military is the last thing on my mind. I'm not a physical activity person cause I'm well, too damn lazy. Maybe the Army and be a medic.
I picked up your meaning behind it after you first posted it. I agreed.Quote:
Actually I made the comment because of the "Marines are stupid" stereotype. Now that I've explained my post, the mods are going to harp on me or something crazy like that.
Not just in combat either. Out of 6 years I've spent over 4 1/2 overseas.Quote:
To all those who are saying that they want to join: Do you fully accept and understand that you will most likely be over seas at some point in your enlistment?
Yeah, oddly enough we're trying to get Germany. Granted we have no real say but at least we can say we wrote down Germany for our three little station choices, 'cause the Army's just gonna put us where ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
Bunch of uptight ... if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Hartman
As for best, go with Air Force or Navy.
Killing isn't exactly something to be proud of.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmReaper
I don't know man, killing gooder sounds like a pretty good deal
of course special forces would woop up the marines :p marines aren't special forces, they're brute force :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Harle-Quin
There's also Korea, Alaska, Hawaii, Africa, and plenty more to be considered overseas.
Yeah my bro-in-law said Alaska was considered an overseas tour which.. I found funny because I never considered Alaska as part of the US anyways. xD My husband would love to end up at Ft. Wainwright though.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
My bro-in-law didn't mind his year in Korea though, neither did my husbands brother, the only thing that sucks about Korea (and many other places) is that it's considered to hostile to bring family, or atleast it still was when my bro-in-law went in '02-'03