back into the world of FF7

Signing in once a year or so, I just keep coming back to the Final Fantasy 7 forum. I just freaking love FF7, I might start a new game tonight. Anywho, I haven't played any of the prequels / sequels / spin offs of this game. I saw the movie AC and was disappointed because I think there's a lack of good story telling / character developing as we see in the game (my opinion).

my question is: does playing games like Before Crisis ruin the original FF7?

I've had that happen to me before: for example, I love the Dune series by Frank Herbert, but when his son started writing the prequels it kinda ruined the original... get my point? :greenie:


your thoughts please

There's nothing to ruin the original FFVII game. Anyone who complains and states so, obviously need to get out of the house once in awhile.

I personally loved Crisis Core, simply because Zack's character develops so much and it's quite easy to to get attached to him. I think it is a very good lead up to the original game, and I'm not sure if there'd be any better way to do it.

Advent Children isn't as bad as a lot of people say, there is quite a bit of development on Cloud's side. Granted it'd be very nice to see what they took out of the DVD release and put back into the Blu-Ray release.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

There's nothing to ruin the original FFVII game. Anyone who complains and states so, obviously need to get out of the house once in awhile.

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I disagree. :)

I found both CC and AC had a rather tarnishing affect on VII. CC's main plot about Genesis alone feel's like SE's way of creating a new plot element so they can milk the VII franchise "for ten or more years".

I personally have not cared for the Compilation, mostly cause it has been poorly done and has made lousy writing choices that disregards the original's story. They need to remake VII now so it no longer conflicts with the Compilation and I find that sad and proof enough of the Compilations faults.

CC does a great job expanding Zack, but the game places too much attention on new characters who are mostly poorly developed or are just plain knock offs of existing characters in the franchise. The parts of CC's story that truly shine are the ones relevant to VII's actual story. The problem is they are few and far between and there is one major scene from VII that is retcon and it really serves no purpose either.

So far, Last Order has been the only part of Compilation I cared about and its cause it actually retconned a scene I felt needed to be changed.

If the Compilation has done anything, it has made me appreciate the original game more but I have a hard time accepting the Compilation as canon cause it changes elements of the source material.

I haven't played Before Crisis, but I have played Crisis Core and DoC!


I really don't think that they ruin FFVII!

Crisis Core does give a lot more detail for Zack and Sephiroth before he went crazy lol.

It also gives quite an impressive back story about the events leading up to FFVII and the Buster Sword.


I know that BC gives a lot more information on The Turks, old AVALANCHE and ShinRa in general.





Squeenix really are milking it, but I'm not complaining! If they happen to re-make VII, I will love it! If they happen to make a sequel to DoC, I will love it, hell even if they port BC to psp and make a sequel, I will love it!



Why the hell is everyone starting to hate FFVII?


EDIT: Last Order wasn't really part of the compilation was it?

crisis core rules!! the only thing that conflicted me a lil was Zack and Aeris, because they are so damn cute, but it doesn't deminish the cute of Cloud and Aeris, just makes it all a bit more complicated.

I thought Crisis Core did very well and fitted together with FFVII nicely, Advent Children was okay. Im not really bothered if they milk it because i love VII:D
I think the main problem is that Crisis Core, Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus are all compared to VII to much rather than reviewed as individual games/movies:choc2:

Thanks guys
:)

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If the Compilation has done anything, it has made me appreciate the original game more

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That's how I feel about AC!

From the responses I get the idea that the games are alright, and that it's fun to learn more about the character's backgrounds and stuff. Maybe it's better to not have high expectations of the Compilation and just appreciate them as seperate games. ah, if they would only remake the game...

I make this analogy all the time but I think it accurately describes how I feel. Some Star Wars fans refuse to accept the three prequels that came out oh so many years later. In the same vain I refuse to accept the compilation. The story was fine how it was thank you.

If Squenix intended for it to turn out that Zack met Aeris by falling through the roof of her church, "just like Cloud", why wasn't that in the original game? The compilation is just like bad fanfiction with a bit of RPG Maker to boot.

- off topic -

omg I totally forgot about the Star Wars movies. I was close to tears when I saw the phantom menace for the first time. actually, I only saw it once :D

I feel that nothing can tarnish the original Final Fantasy VII as long as it exists in its current form.

I agree with Omecle/others: 1) I really couldn't see any related-story ruining the original for me. On anything - games or whatever.

2) I thought Crisis Core added new perspective to the original FFVII story, so imo it only enhances it if slightly.

I just watched Last Order and that was pretty cool, the Nibelheim story always seemed complicated to me. As long as they stick to the original FF7 story I would love to see more stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Omecle

There's nothing to ruin the original FFVII game. Anyone who complains and states so, obviously need to get out of the house once in awhile.

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I disagree. :)

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If you go play the original, it is exactly the same as it was when it was first released. How do the other games ruin it? If you truely don't like the other aspects of the compilation, just don't pay attention to them. To bitch and moan about it is a waste of time and energy, and that's why I do not take anyone's opinion that is formed in such a manner, seriously.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Omecle

There's nothing to ruin the original FFVII game. Anyone who complains and states so, obviously need to get out of the house once in awhile.

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I disagree. :)

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If you go play the original, it is exactly the same as it was when it was first released. How do the other games ruin it? If you truely don't like the other aspects of the compilation, just don't pay attention to them. To bitch and moan about it is a waste of time and energy, and that's why I do not take anyone's opinion that is formed in such a manner, seriously.

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When you say it like that I agree, and I do ignore the compilation. :p

I just wanted to warn him that if he didn't like AC, then he might not like CC either. Cause I feel both games brought the same thing to the VII mythos: nothing

Is it wrong to offer a different opinion?

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Is it wrong to offer a different opinion?

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You're having a conversation with gamers about video games so yes. Offering a different opinion around gamers is punishable by death these days for some reason.

*snip*
[mulley]Please don't flame or bait other members like this. - Flying Mullet[/mulley]

the only thing that kicks people of is the confrontational tude that some people sometimes take. an opinion is an opion but its all in the way you present it and yourself.

I think AC could have been better, needed a lot more AVALANCHE and a lot less dumb ass silver hair boys. also less generic extra's and more back characters from the game, (Shera, Elmyra extra) also would have been great if it had more locations in it. but its still enjoyable i think

I get the idea that people don't like it when you say your disappointed with the Compilation. It's often regarded as whining or bitching. I'm totally not doing that, just saying I don't like AC and wondering if it ll take something away from the original.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

When you say it like that I agree, and I do ignore the compilation. :p

I just wanted to warn him that if he didn't like AC, then he might not like CC either. Cause I feel both games brought the same thing to the VII mythos: nothing

Is it wrong to offer a different opinion?

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Well, I never said it was wrong to have a different opinion, if you want to take it that way then I can't stop you. But it goes the same way, I have the opinion that your opinion isn't based off of anything that has any real substance. Now that's fine if you think I'm wrong, but that's my opinion. I think even though I personally didn't like Advent Children, I still loved Crisis Core, even if it were simply because of Zack's development which was completely worth it, in my opinion.

*snip*
[mulley]The best thing to do is ignore these kinds of remarks. - Flying Mullet[/mulley]

Edit: Just to clear up, I can not fathom the idea of sequels or prequels having the power to take anything from the original. I just don't see how they change the original so much; it's not like they've remade the game or anything. It's still the same as it was when it was released.

what was added was clarification on Cloud and Tifa's relationship, and what was taken away was the common misconception of Cloud having any real interest in Aerith, that's what gets some of the old fans riled up, except those like myself that always knew the truth that there was never really a Love Triangle to begin with... maybe some people like to swim in muddy watters, but personaly i prefer the clarification the compilation provides, not just the LTD but other aspects as well...

Personally I love Crisis Core and Digre of Cerberus. But i have to say Advent Children was kind of lacking in the story telling part. It was kind hard for me to get at first because it kept going to different many scenes at once. The movie was good.

I thought Advent Children wasn't a good movie. It lacked story which is what killed my enjoyment for it and I thought the action scenes were sloppy.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

Edit: Just to clear up, I can not fathom the idea of sequels or prequels having the power to take anything from the original. I just don't see how they change the original so much; it's not like they've remade the game or anything. It's still the same as it was when it was released.

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I'm not completely against sequels and spin-offs when done well and with respect to the original source material but I feel the Compilation does not fulfill in either case.

When it changes and retcons plot elements and history it can affect the originals. Case in point the Force from Star Wars. In the original trilogy its a mysterious pseudo-religious philosophy and element that adds a sense of mystery and wonder to the films. In the prequels, its defined as simple bacteria in your cells that give you psychic powers. Suddenly, its difficult to get the wonder and breath of depth from Yoda's teachings to Skywalker when you suddenly remember that the Force is just a simple biological organism and the line "trust in the Force" can now be changed to say, "Trust the bacteria" it sorta kills all the mystique of the franchise when the franchise continues to utilize the retcon as canon. :eep:

For the Compilation, a lot of the changes are minor but it goes against statement made from the original game. For instance, CC states (SPOILER)the war in Wutai was caused by Wutai refusing to have Mako energy from Shin-Ra. Its clearly shown that Shin-Ra is in the Mako manufacturing business. In the original game, Cid states the war with Wutai started back when Shin-Ra was still a weapons manufacturing company. They hadn't even learn how much profits they could get from Mako energy until after the events when Cid had his failed launch. (SPOILER)CC states that the war in Wutai ended before Cid's launch. Its a glaring error and changes a bit of the original cause we now have to change a few facts regarding history.

The major element that bother me about CC and this is a major error that does in fact makes you question the main game; is the story revolving around the Nibelheim Incident. Easily one of the most important scenes in the original game's story. (SPOILER)CC adds Genesis to the Nibelheim Reactor scene from the original, he goads Sephiroth into learning about the Jenova project and personally I feel Sephiroth's whole involvement with Genesis and Angeal should have given him a better heads-up concerning the truth of his own origins so I feel their involvement in the story cheapens Sephiroth's reaction. Not to mention we also had Genesis' forces attack both Tifa and Cloud at the reactor and the dialogue from the original story indicates, Zack met Cloud for the first time at Nibelheim whereas CC has them as bosom buddies before the mission even started.

What's the major problem here that affects the original story? If Cloud knew all this, why doesn't he talk about any of it in the original game? Course its obvious that Cloud couldn't remember anything that was made ten years after the original but I also ask why would you make such drastic change to a story element that the main game's plot hangs upon? They should have had greater respect for the source material. Now it throws the main story in question if we are lead to believe we must treat CC as canon so now we have to either come up with lame excuses as to why Cloud doesn't remember(SPOILER) Genesis being at Nibelheim throughout the original game or wait for a remake that is going to have massive rewrites to the story. It just seems backwards that VII has to be remade so it fits with the Compilation when the Compilation should have been written not to conflict with the original.

there's a clear and simple reason Cloud does not remember those things mentioned, and it's even explained in the original game, it was due to his Mako poisoning that his memories and personality got muddled up not to mention Sephiroth with full control of JENOVA was fracking with his mind as well... it's no surprise that a lot got left out especialy when you take into consideration that the original story was told from Clouds point of view... each part of the compilation is another part of the whole told from a different perspective from a different character... CC form Zack, LO is Tsung reading a report and of course with secrecy being a big thing in ShinRa it's no surprise the story was convoluted a bit, AC & Meteorfall (original game) were told from Clouds pov, with DoC being from vincents... now if you take into consideration that all these sources from different pov's then it's no surprise there's gonna be a bit of conflict in the story, but with a little thaught it begins to add up and make sense...

Its a good argument Elly but you have a few flaws when it comes to CC. First, Cloud's mind is restored at the end of Disc 2, and I feel (SPOILER)Genesis' presence was large enough to bare mentioning. (SPOILER)It also doesn't change the conflicting dialogue about his relationship with Zack. Now it can be argued that his mind may still be a bit fuzzy about all the details and I will concur its a logical solution yet the real problem comes from this: Tifa was there for some of the changes and yet she makes no mention of it. As usual Tifa is the liability in the plot. She makes no mention and personally I feel the events in CC were big enough to warrant a mention.

Its probably the other issue I had with CC's original story elements. (SPOILER)Genesis caused enough major incidents to warrant a lasting impression on the VII world. There are ways to explain why it bares no mention in the original (outside of the obvious logic) yet I feel logically many of them are weak arguments and only a thorough rewrite of the original game can fix many of the conflicting story elements.

I just feel its a bit of sloppy work resulting in fans coming up with baseless reasoning to explain continuity errors. To be honest, I enjoy the expansion of Zack's character in CC, I just wish the writing had been a bit more professional. Especially when these changes don't help the original game, yet instead create the foundation for an inevitable future sequel.

Its probably my real complaint with CC, it doesn't feel so much like a prequel designed to expand and explain the set-up of the scenario's in the original game as much as its a prequel explaining the events that will take place in another sequel/spin-off that has little to do with original. (SPOILER)Outside of the Buster sword origin and the changes to Zack's relationship to Cloud and Aerith; CC expands very little on events that pertain to the original game. Its plot is more about setting up Genesis as a new antagonist/ protagonist in future installments of the Compilation. I also argue that there really was no point in having Genesis even at Nibelheim. This of course is just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I feel that nothing can tarnish the original Final Fantasy VII as long as it exists in its current form.

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Aging ten years and noticing all of the hilarious grammatical and spelling errors kind of ruined the experience for me. :aimcry:

advent children tried its best to ruin the soul left in the ffworld.
i just keep looking away when square-enix pukes up new stuff

I'm sure if you treat the Compilation games as games in their own right (not as sequels or prequels) then they can't be that bad.

I don't think CC lessens the importance of Cloud and Aeris's relationship. They had fun together and made each other happy, they had feelings for each other and Cloud's feelings for her just don't vanish when he gets his head back together.
It does confirm that Cloud had feelings for Tifa all along but it doesn't devalue his feelings for Aeris.
The three way relationship is complicated and it can't just be shunned away by which ever side u prefer. i don't think you can appreciate the extent of the love going on until you can understand the fact that he loved or loves Both Tifa and Aeris at different times. (but come on in the end he Has to get with Tifa, i mean the poor chick deserves him, she stuck by him so much and Aeris is dead sadly)

^ I heard the movie was also left ambiguous, so the player's interpretation of the triangle could be maintained.

Maybe Cloud and Tifa were just friends who lived together. Or friends with benefits. Who knows?

I don't really care what anybody says about the ff7 spins. The game was great and left people with strong emotions for it. Thats why there are some spin offs. Now to say that they are good or bad? It depends on how much you want to experience stuff about the FF7 world. Me I'm a big fan and I like to see new things other then Cloud and the gang kill everything with 4 time cut or slash all.

I remember when I was a little younger I wished that I could play the game with Zack in place of cloud. Well now I got ff7cc and all is good. I'm sure people wanted a game with vincent, now they got ff7DoC. Its what so many people wanted and thats what square enix gave (besides aeris' life back).

exactly they expanded the world by giving us more detailed locations and more characters to flesh the world out yet ppl complain because it's not FF7 redux... and friends that live together, please, like they use the word family about a billion times just cause they're friends, right, no there is a conclusion to that particular arc and it ends with CxT as evidenced by AC and "The Way to a Smile", there is no ambiguity it couldn't get any clearer to anyone who has paid attention...

^ my bad, i guess you're right.

And I agree on what you and sora said too. I've found that the biggest amount of people who like to complain, bitch, and cry about the compilation are people who have a problem with VII being popular to begin with. I've never bought a spin off because they just don't interest me that much (watched AC a few times online). At the same time I know there's people who have enjoyed these products and I'm glad for them they were released.

In line with what Elly has said, I would definitely agree that the Tifa/Cloud/Aeris triangle is resolved through the compilation. Though, I didn't feel like AC solved it conclusively...I think it just started showing how Cloud and Tifa had grown closer and would probably pursue a romance.

What really gave me the C/T answer was the Kingdom Hearts franchise actually. lol Calling Tifa Cloud's light in KH2 was kind of a glaring hint, IMO. I know that KH is nowhere near FF7 canon, but I think that having that kind of moment showed where Square's perception of the triangle lies. Anyway, by the time Crisis Core came around and showed us the beautiful cuteness of the Zack/Aeris origins (coupled with AC's nod toward them), I think it's safe to say that Square has come out and said that the primary canon relationships are Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aeris.

I'm sure in a future FF7 sequel we'll have a NEW triangle...Yuffie/Vincent/Shelke. :P Which makes me wonder...will more people be Vincent/Yuffie or Vincent/Shelke? I don't like either, but I really can't stand Vincent/Yuffie...so yah.

Also, in response to PeneloRatsbane...though having it be C/T does not negate Cloud's love for Aeris, it does kind of change some things, or at least it did for me. See, I (and perhaps a bunch of other people) was kind of used to thinking of one great love for the hero in each game. When you first go into 7, I think that the average person believes that Aeris is Cloud's great love and that once she dies, he is only left Tifa as a second option. Obviously it's not as simple as that, as the second half of the game does a lot to show her importance to Cloud...and blah...7 left it all very ambiguous. But, knowing the 'answer' to the triangle, I no longer view Aeris as Cloud's great love. In other words, it is no longer Cloud/Aeris that goes along with Squall/Rinoa, Tidus/Yuna, and Zidane/Dagger...but Cloud/Tifa. Crisis Core emphasized the effect that Zack must have had on the C/A relationship IMO, which kind of diminishes my views on the C/A coupling. Of course, could Square just be emphasizing C/T and Z/A for the sake of its compilation? Perhaps. :)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

They need to remake VII now so it no longer conflicts with the Compilation and I find that sad and proof enough of the Compilations faults.

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For reasons beside no one in VII ever hinting at Genesis' existence? There aren't any real reasons for his presence not occurring in VII, just excuses.

But anyway, whatever, I don't care. I've been campaigning for Re:VII since I played VIII. Every installment since has made me push harder. Despite the Compilation being a desperate maneuver feeding off the hardcore fan's obsession with VII (and are in themselves disappointing comparatively) it's done its job. I want Re:VII even more than then and I've only watched AC and played through DC. I plan to buy CC (since they don't rent out PSP games) and I wish against my common sense for Square to release BC on a system other than phones ('cause phones suck). In fact, I'd likely end up owning the entire collection including E-ZC.

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Originally Posted by Elskidor

VII doesn't need a remake. Give it a remake for it's 20th anniversary, but a game made for Playstation can wait a few years before being remade.

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No! VII must be released 2012 on its 15th anniversary as this will be the year I have my six epileptic episode which will this time feature six consecutive seizures on June 6. Then, if the world doesn't end, my epilepsy should be gone and I can console myself with my new console game Re: Final Fantasy VII: The Uber Make-You-Wet-Your-Pants Edition.

Heh. I'm gonna name'em. Final Fantasy VII: E-ZC
Ex Chaotica, From Celsius, Gaia's Cradle, Hell Cries, Iaido Caress, Jade Corridors, Kaito's Ciel, Lucrecia's Cherub, Madness of Cerise, Nemesis Creed, Ocean's Cabal, Plague of Cain, Quantus ex Calibre, Requiem Caesura, SOLDIER's Confidant, Tears of Cocytus, Utopian Conquest, Victor Centurion, Wings of Caduceus, Xenos Cross, Yours to Cherish, Zion Chronicles.

hmm thts what i like about it, i never considered Tifa a second best, its complicated his love for them both because its more realistic. i love it

and as for a Vincet/yuffie/shelke love triangle.... no matter what Shelke is in actuallaty she is mentally and physically 10 years old, I played DOC and i don't get why people assume its a romantic relationship, they are friends and they have a few things in common, but its nothing sexual, theres no tension between them it would be the grossest and most boring ship ever. I also think that the idea of it makes Shelke into a bit of a pointless mary-sueesque deity, she needs a chance to be a kid.
as for Vincent and Yuffie? hmm i dunno there is tension there and it would be interesting and much more appropriate but Vincent would need to develope emotionally more and Yuffie would need to calm a little, which she has started to do, and she does look so sad at the end, that tilts me towards liking it, doesn't mean it will happen tho

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

They need to remake VII now so it no longer conflicts with the Compilation and I find that sad and proof enough of the Compilations faults.

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For reasons beside no one in VII ever hinting at Genesis' existence? There aren't any real reasons for his presence not occurring in VII, just excuses.

But anyway, whatever, I don't care. I've been campaigning for Re:VII since I played VIII. Every installment since has made me push harder. Despite the Compilation being a desperate maneuver feeding off the hardcore fan's obsession with VII (and are in themselves disappointing comparatively) it's done its job. I want Re:VII even more than then and I've only watched AC and played through DC. I plan to buy CC (since they don't rent out PSP games) and I wish against my common sense for Square to release BC on a system other than phones ('cause phones suck). In fact, I'd likely end up owning the entire collection including E-ZC.

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I'm not against a remake of VII per se, in fact I feel its been inevitable since its release. Though I would just want one with a better localization (perhaps one that makes Barret not sound like a stereotype :rolleyes2) I don't even care about a graphic upgrade. Yet it seems to me it will now need to incorporate the Compilation into its mythos and it bother me a bit cause the Compilation is not as good as the original. But these are just how things go I guess.

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Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane

no matter what Shelke is in actuality, she is mentally and physically 10 years old. I also think that the idea of it makes Shelke into a bit of a pointless mary-sue-esque deity, she needs a chance to be a kid.
Vincent would need to develop more emotionally and Yuffie would need to calm, which she has started to do and she does look so sad at the end

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F1rst) Where are you getting your information? Shelke is only PHYSICALLY 10. Where did you get the mental part? Shelke has been alive just as long as her sister, Shalua, so naturally, she has the mind (and spirit) of someone of equal age. However, given the hardships she's endured, I'd agree that she needs a chance to reinvigorate her child spirit and just live. She can concern herself with love somewhere far down the line. (Whereas Vincent no longer has an excuse, he's just a puss)
Sec2nd) As I've said, Vincent is a puss just like Cloud, he won't step up, he's stuck on Lucrecia. As for Yuffie. She's a materia girl. I imagine she'd be pretty easily won over.

Because Shelke hasn't had a childhood or a teenage years, shes been locked down in deep ground no chance to experience a normal life and if we consider Shelke to be 19 then the same logic must apply to Vincent make him 60. Its not just a simple as saying shes actually 19, shes been basically switched off for 9 years just as Vincent was for 30 years, the situation is complicated but i think if we use differen't logic for each character then it loses all sense completely.

You suggest that simply because of the way he looks, Vincent Valentine doesn't express the personality of a 60-year-old man? Or does the idea of a 60-year-old fraternizing with a 19-year-old creep you out? 'Cause that's retarded. It's not as if the concept is new. Lots of young girls find a deeper sense of maturity, understanding, and knowledge attactive in men. Some relationships of this sort actually manage to last longer than most marriages between people of equal age or only slight age difference.

Now where was I? Anyway, like I said, Shelke does need the opportunity to explore the childhood she missed, but that doesn't mean she's literally a child. In fact, in DC, she gradually adopts many characteristics of Vincent's first love, Lucrecia (which may have been the spark some fans seen in a possible romance between them).