BBC News Report
So yeah, do you think its getting out of hand? I admit to pirating games, though they are only old ones that are most likely out of production so the developers wouldnt be get any money from me either way.
Keep it civil :)
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BBC News Report
So yeah, do you think its getting out of hand? I admit to pirating games, though they are only old ones that are most likely out of production so the developers wouldnt be get any money from me either way.
Keep it civil :)
Maxx Power!
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0134729353.jpg
Be honest, you wouldn't.
I think those smurfing "you wouldn't steal a car" things on LEGALLY BOUGHT DVDS should be banned forever. It actually makes me want to buy pirate DVDs so I don't have to put up with this kind of bollocks from "the good guys".
If I really like a show or a game, I'd buy it.
But I pirate a lot. I mean about 500 gigs a year.
But I don't really care, I also spend 500 euro a year on games and 200 on DVD's, so it evens it out in my mind.
mp3's are total bull as artists make their money on tours. Let them work for their money.
Movies I watch in the movie theater.
And shows? Shows are free on tv anyway, why not watch it without the commercials? :)
I wish I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
Oh crap yeah I forgot about tv shows.
Rottenbeard told me to do it!
I'm against it. Wholeheartedly. I don't care what people say.. it is stealing.
Put Daria on DVD in its five-seasons and two-TV-movies entirety and I will buy it. Until then I'm keeping my illegally downloaded files because they haven't been made legally available to the common consumer and that is not fair on people who want to pay good money for their preferred entertainment.
While we're at it, can we please have Guilty Gear Accent Core on the PS2 in Europe? Nintendo has always been less popular than its competitors over here so why the hell did we only get the Wii version!? (I haven't pirated this, my PS2 isn't modded)
I think it's so funny how people try and justify their stealing. If you pirate, you're stealing, just own up to it.
I've pirated stuff before and so yeah, I am a thief. I know it, and I don't try and come up with bs excuses why it's ok or how it's not REALLY REALLY stealing. Pfft. Excuses excuses excuses.
Pirate = thief. Deal with it.
I second Roto13's argument and therefore I am not pirating.
Yey! :)
I shouldn't have to pay $50-$80 dollars for a single season of a television show that has, at most, 17-20 episodes on it, each of which are under 45 minutes in length with crappy "dvd bonus extras". Then I have to pay another outrageous fee to watch the next season of it (if it has one).
I also shouldn't have to pay $20-$30 dollars to own a movie I will probably only watch a few times and then never watch again except out of boredom.
Also paying $50-$60 on a video game is pretty heavy price to pay. I wouldn't be so for piracy if things weren't overpriced out the hole in my butt.
Does lying to yourself help you sleep better at night?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
I'm not justifying it. I know I'm stealing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...cyispiracy.jpg
Maybe not.
(And yes, I know what's being stolen is the copyright, not the product. I posted it because it made me laugh... and because unlike people who just say "Piracy is stealing" because they're parrots, I know that piracy is stealing because the copyright is being stolen.)
Look, MTV can bloody well send me an invoice equivalent to the cost of five seasons of television and two movies on DVD, or they can release them and I'll pay the cost of five seasons of television and two movies on DVD. It's not unreasonable.
EDIT: Holy crap this thread moved fast!
EDIT: Mine's better. :P And I have an even better one if you want to see it.
It's still illegal. xPQuote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
Go rent it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Honestly, if you want to have those things you have to pay for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
... and $60 is not much for a video game. They cost 100 bucks here, so I don't see what you americans are moaning about.
We had someone in our class who was oh-so self righteous about piracy and all his friends slagged him off and took the piss constantly for it. Go work for FACT (or whatever you have in whatever country you're in) if you wanna act all vigilant about it.
I still continue to demand that I be allowed to pay reasonable money for any copyrighted material.
Yeah, you could rent them. But around here, it is usually $5 to rent a movie for a few days, usually three. If it is brought back even a minute after the due date and due time, you have to pay late fees which usually end up being twice the amount of what you rented the movie for. Also if the dvd is damage through not fault of your own you have to buy the movie for retail price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Go rent it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
I have absolutely no problem with buying things. I just have a problem paying an overpriced fee to buy something that shouldn't be overpriced in the first place. It doesn't cost them $60-$80 dollars to produce a DVD set of a season of television.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreineHonestly, if you want to have those things you have to pay for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
... and $60 is not much for a video game. They cost 100 bucks here, so I don't see what you americans are moaning about.
As far as the $100 video game, what's your currency equal to in relation of US dollars?
Y'know what's worse than piracy? Region codes. Cheeky corporate bastards.
Bunny: New games here usually cost £40-£50. Now that's over-priced. If anyone wants to give me reason to not hate these things (but love them oh so much), then feel free to throw some cost-to-makes at me.
Piracy is unquestionably theft. That said, entertainment on all media formats is overpriced, so I don't blame people for downloading their favourite TV shows or music. I don't do illegal downloads, but I share CDs with my friends all the time, and that's basically the same thing. It's stealing, and there's no point in trying to justify it as anything but.
I played god by creating a monster (the thread). Then I didnt take responsibility for it (i.e. not contributing to the thread), just like mankind :D
Well, its getting there at least...
Piracy (or file-sharing if thats the correct technical term) IS theft, theres no denying it. Doesnt matter if your not getting rid of the original copy, your stealing the copyright. But I guess everyone knows this.
I always wondered this:
Would you not get it if it wasnt available for file-sharing?
If you WERE going to buy it, would file-sharing stop you?
No real way to know... Statistics will never exist for this kind of stuff..
I've never lost a night sleep on it, and you can't talk me a guilt on this. I spend more on this crap than any of you, I'd recon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirielDoes lying to yourself help you sleep better at night?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
And being a student I don't have the money to buy it all, or I would.
So yes, no sleep trouble here. :)
Oh and by this definition, recording TV on a DVR would be piracy too.
I know, but I don't make money on it, do I? So they can't actually do anything. It's like fanfiction. If you put a disclaimer on the top saying you make no money and it isn't yours, they can't hurt you.(how much they'd like to make you think they can)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13It's still illegal. xPQuote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
Yes, I would. I would then drive it against a myriad of other downloaded cars in a simulated race around a downloaded track that resembles the DC Beltway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
Also, people, piracy != theft (as Roto has delightfully shown us). To say that they are is like saying that metaphor is the same as a simile. You can say "but they're alike" all you want. You're still wrong.
I used to pirate an awful lot. I downloaded loads of music and videos through torrents. Torrent use at my school (even for legal purposes) is strictly forbidden. Once detected, they shut down internet connectivity. To restore connectivity, one must go to the tech center to reestablish it (an obnoxious and likely embarrassing affair since people know you're there for trying to steal something). If this is repeated three times, you are sent to the Dean of Students; I do believe you can get suspended or expelled.
As a result, I've not pirated anything at school. After being at school for eight months, I got out of the habit and didn't download anything this summer either.
I download crap all the time. If it's something I really want to own, I'll buy it, but otherwise I'll download it.
You know what's a giant pain in the ass? Anti-piracy measures. What do they accomplish, exactly, besides driving people to download? Spore was cracked the other day and it's not even out yet, so instead of doing anything at all to prevent people from sharing their game, all they've done is inconvenience the people who are going to buy it legally.
True, I think one of the toughest ones to get around was steam(took the longest, at least), but they did anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Stop saying piracy is stealing, because it isn't. Copyright infringement and theft are two different things, but that doesn't make the former any less illegal :p.
I break the law by pirating, sure, but I don't steal.
Geez, in the common sense of the word, it IS stealing. Blah blah copyright infringement, whatever. It's like Bill Clinton trying to argue that oral sex isn't "sexual relations".
I don't exactly lose sleep over it.
Except that one time I had nightmares about my mom using Kazaa. Phew.
It's only the "common sense" of the word because the film industry is trying their best to make it so. They're two different crimes legally, in addition to being what i think should be common sense. But then again, common sense isn't really that common.
...but how cool is it being able to truthfully say that you're a pirate?
EDIT:
Also, pirating does not equal stealing a car. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Maybe not right, but still, different. I hate those stupid things.
I'm a pirate, but only because finding stuff is hard and ordering stuff off the internet takes too long. Plus when I finally learned how to use .bin and .cue I was so proud of myself.
pirating is more like taking off in someone's car while they're in it and giving them a ride to work, then picking them up and parking it in their driveway and then going away.
You don't pay for the gas, but they're not otherwise inconvenienced by it :D
I pirate
Yeah, just the fact that they call it piracy appeals to me and only makes it cooler. If it was called Ninjutsu I'd probably not do it as much. stupid ninjas.
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...een/piracy.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
I once had someone ask me how I'd like it if someone came in and stole my TV. I was like "That'd suck. They're more than welcome to copy my TV, though. If they can find a way to."Quote:
Also, pirating does not equal stealing a car. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Maybe not right, but still, different. I hate those stupid things.
That reminds me of a comedy skit I saw. He was making fun of the stealing a car thing and said, "No I wouldn't steal a car, but if my friend came over and said I just a new Jaguar want me to burn you copy, I'd do it." Or something similar to that. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I don't pirate as much as I used to, but I do steal tons of music, and don't feel bad about it at all seeing as the record industry is pure evil. I steal movies if I'm bored and it's not in the theater. I NEVER steal movies that are still in the theater. That's incredibly lame. I still buy DVDs if I want to actually own it though.
I mean, in my case it's not like I'm losing anyone money. All the stuff I download I only do because I have the ability, and if I didn't I still wouldn't buy it.
People who download entire albums and DVD ISOs and Video Game ISOs and mod their consoles to play them and burn them and refuse to buy ANYTHING EVER deserve a swift kick in the ass though.
I agree. I'm a dirty pirate as well, but I have a very strict policy-- if I like it and it is licensed, I must buy it. However, if something is not licensed or unavailable/discontinued, I have no problem with downloading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavrobel
Yep, I'm a pirate. All of the music on my PSP was stolen, it will be a cold day in hell when I actually pay for music. Heck, I even downloaded a ROM of Final Fantasy IV DS (which I'm thinking of getting rid of, the lag is not worth it).
That doesn't mean I don't pay for my own DVDs and other games, just some things don't seem worth paying for (I regret the money I wasted seeing Meet the Spartans).
Pirates are cooler than ninjas.
Ninja pirates are freaking awesome.
But once we get into ninja pirate-monkeys, we're getting close to godly.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if I was busted for piracy. I can't think of a single thing on this computer that I've obtained legally...
If something isn't tangible/is digital, I don't mind stealing it; It feels pretty harmless. =O
Indeed not. It's called promiscuity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Yup, I sure do enjoy me some swashbuckling.
Also, I enjoyed Roto's first image, but that one is simply fantastic
I only tend to infringe on the copyrights of things that I wouldn't normally buy anyway. Or things that I -can't- buy, for whatever reason. So the argument about losing money would be moot with me. If I couldn't pirate that stuff I'd just live without it. The stuff I really want, I pay money for, even if I can download it. I'm an honorable pirate theif thing
Edit: And yes. I would download a car
Every one pirates stuff and all the entertainment industries are still filthy stinking rich so I don't really care that I'm nicking something from them. If I really like an artist/developer/director/etc. I will buy their work, though.
Y'ar, I used to pillage and sail the skies, but then I ran out of crystals to power the engine core so I be grounded with all ye land-lubbing scum.
I'd but the works of the artists that I really like, but I don't know where to get any of Ариа's CDs short of eBay. I've never seen Megaherz or Eisbrecher (though I may be able to find them if I keep looking around more). Rammstein is no problem at all, but I just don't like the idea of having only 5 CDs, and all from just one band. And, of course, the only Apocalyptica CD I can find around here is Worlds Collide (I suppose neo-classical isn't too popular around my area).Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Rabbits
My music is in short supply. Piracy is the only logical option.
I'm a pirate and a thief and I enjoy it. I guess there's not really much guilt to taking what doesn't belong to you if all it takes is a simple download link; there's no real visible effect that can be seen that you are taking from someone else, especially in the case of file sharing. I'd have more guilt over shoplifting when I was a little kid than downloading anything over the internet.
Not to say I don't ever buy things (I know I really don't like downloading books as it doesn't feel the same) but if stuff like games and so forth can be emulated; or music can be downloaded, then I will more often than not do so.
Also, YouTube - You Are A Pirate (Lazy Town)
One US dollar approximately equals 5.5 Danish crowns - that doesn't change anything, though.. a video game still costs $100, or around £50 for you British people out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
.. And Mirage, piracy is stealing!
I suppose I am a thief, but I don't download much to begin with; no music, no games and no movies. An exception to that are some older ROMs that I sometimes play. But even then I try to buy the real game if it's possible.
I used to download some music, but never much. The only thing I do download are episodes of TV series. The reason for that is that I hate having to watch them on German TV for the simple fact that I enjoy them in their original version. If there's a DVD I'd buy it, but often there isn't yet and I just want to watch it. When it comes out on DVD I often buy them afterwards, like I did with Battlestar Galactica. But I will download season 4 of that again before I have a chance of buying the DVD. So, I don't have a bad conscience about my behavior.
It's weird, because that was actually on yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
....I mean, Lazy Town sucks! :shifty:
I download music and tv shows. Mostly tv shows, because I miss them when they are on. But once a DVD is released of said tv show, I buy it. Software though, I buy all my software. I have legal versions of 3ds max, Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects.
Check my first post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
So I guess if I go to the library and photocopy a few pages out of an encyclopedia, I'm stealing those pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
I'm fairly sure they see it as you stealing the money that you should have paid for using the photocopier.
The key word is library.. you are supposed to borrow stuff there, and whether or not you photocopy some pages or copy it in any other way doesn't make it illegal. - and it can't really be compared to piracy.. at least, that's what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13So I guess if I go to the library and photocopy a few pages out of an encyclopedia, I'm stealing those pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
Hate that advert. The last time I went to the cinema they showed that annoying 'DON'T BE A KNOCK-OFF NIGEL' advert and it was followed by an advert for some widescreen television. Because I'm a jerk, I rather loudly said to the person next to me "You know, that would be just perfect for watching a pirated DVD on" to the laughter, applause and cheers of the rest of the cinema patrons. Okay, perhaps not, but quite a few people laughed. But yeah, I do hate those adverts on legal DVDs. I bought the bloody DVD and watching that advert just makes me want to pirate stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
I don't have much sympathy for the large money-making corporations to be honest and so I don't feel too guilty downloading stuff that's ridiculously overpriced anyway. I do think it's wrong, but it's just an easier way to get stuff sometimes that otherwise isn't generally available.
So what if I give those pages to someone else? Is it stealing THEN?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreineThe key word is library.. you are supposed to borrow stuff there, and whether or not you photocopy some pages or copy it in any other way doesn't make it illegal. - and it can't really be compared to piracy.. at least, that's what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13So I guess if I go to the library and photocopy a few pages out of an encyclopedia, I'm stealing those pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
How about a novel? If I photocopy it at the library, am I stealing it? How about if I take it home and photocopy it? How about if I photocopy it, take it home, photocopy the photocopies and give them to everyone I know? At what point does it become stealing?
I don't care if I'm stealing when I pirate games, I don't have the money to buy lots and I have the means to get them for free. What people do is up to them, I don't care. =P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13So what if I give those pages to someone else? Is it stealing THEN?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreineThe key word is library.. you are supposed to borrow stuff there, and whether or not you photocopy some pages or copy it in any other way doesn't make it illegal. - and it can't really be compared to piracy.. at least, that's what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13So I guess if I go to the library and photocopy a few pages out of an encyclopedia, I'm stealing those pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
How about a novel? If I photocopy it at the library, am I stealing it? How about if I take it home and photocopy it? How about if I photocopy it, take it home, photocopy the photocopies and give them to everyone I know? At what point does it become stealing?
BUT IT IS STEALING, DON'T YOU SEE?!
Breine's in a crusade. =O
Yeah, I would consider it stealing if you copied a whole book for yourself. Same thing if you rent a DVD at blockbuster and rip it onto a blank DVD at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13So what if I give those pages to someone else? Is it stealing THEN?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreineThe key word is library.. you are supposed to borrow stuff there, and whether or not you photocopy some pages or copy it in any other way doesn't make it illegal. - and it can't really be compared to piracy.. at least, that's what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13So I guess if I go to the library and photocopy a few pages out of an encyclopedia, I'm stealing those pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
How about a novel? If I photocopy it at the library, am I stealing it? How about if I take it home and photocopy it? How about if I photocopy it, take it home, photocopy the photocopies and give them to everyone I know? At what point does it become stealing?
Seriously, what is with you people and your reluctance to admit that you are taking something for free which you are supposed to be paying for? I steal/pirate stuff on the web because I can. Because it's easy. I'm not gonna stand on some imaginary moral highground and site silly little technicalities which make pirating different from traditional theft of property. Of course it's different, technically. But it's all the same. It's a new kind of stealing - there, does that make you feel better about yourself?*
* The "you" I'm referencing isn't specifically you, Roto. It's a general you.
Taking a DVD and copying it to a blank DVD is copying. As long as that DVD goes back to Blockbuster, it hasn't been stolen because it's still there. It's not a new kind of stealing, despite what the entertainment industry would have you believe.
But, again, it's still illegal. I'm not denying that. It's just not stealing.
Oh jesus christ. YOU ARE TAKING SOMETHING THAT YOU SHOULD BE PAYING FOR. STEALING.
No, I am COPYING SOMETHING I SHOULD BE PAYING FOR. Huge difference.
Fine, you are copying something that you should be paying for. STEALING STEALING STEALING.
And in a business where COPIES are what you're selling, those copies are every bit as important to those businesses as physical objects are to businesses that sell physical objects.
Oh, they're copies are definitely the important part of the business, you'll get no argument there. The end result is more-or-less the same (except harder to bust someone for, and there's a gray area about when it goes from backing up to being illegal). People are definitely deluding themselves when they act like it's ok and right.
But they're not stealing :bigsmile:
Keep on seeding.
First of all, what the entertainment industry is trying to do, by putting draconian law to use on a 14-year old downloading a song from the internet, is completely and utterly the WRONG way to deal with piracy. Metallica REALLY screwed the industry when it decided to make music piracy headline news, and let everybody know that there was a cheaper and easier way to get music, by suing anybody that downloaded their songs. OOPS! Some things are better left unsaid.
The only way people will stop pirating movies, music, software etc. is if they have no reason to do it! Stop forcing us to pay $20+ for a CD that only has 1 or 2 good songs on it. Make the product worth the money! The things that CAN be distributed digitally, SHOULD be. That includes movies, music, software. That would take the inconvenience of having to pay for gas to go to the store and spend more money. It would also virtually elminate transportation costs, which means the price of the product would go down. Lower prices will encourage more people to buy it. With the elimination of transportation costs, comes the reduction of the consumption of petroleum and THOSE prices would go down too. It would also decongest the roads to the point where some roads could be removed, and we could finally start rebuilding our future on this planet (ie. planting trees).
The one catch with going all-digital, is that access to hi-speed internet would have to become a right. In otherwords, it would have to be made public domain by getting rid of the privatization of it. Give it to the government, and let everybody pay for it through taxes. Capitalism, which sits squarely on the shoulders of the corporations, is exactly what is wrong with modern society and the economic instability that is beginning to rear it's ugly head in Canada, the USA, and now Britain from what I hear. This is what happens when so many people get so rich, because just as many people are becoming impoverished and when people don't have money that they used to, they'll take it as cheap as they can get it: PIRACY! Who the hell needs $1,000,000,000? Give some of it back to people that need it. Of course, don't just GIVE it back, because that'll just make people more lazy. Let them earn it. Tell me what you wouldn't do if it would get you $10,000,000 or even just $1,000,000?
The entertainment industry needs to STOP PANICKING, step back and look at exactly what is going on, and THEN try to fix it.
I think we all want a Universal Constructor. Someday, someday...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoI wish I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
@ Miriel: It's not theft. If it was theft there wouldn't be any commercial copyright laws on the books because you'd just get done for theft. It's not. However, in common parlance, I suppose 'stealing' serves to illustrate the point. The problem is that there's a legitimate and necessary debate here about copying and so forth - because one day there will be a UC and you will be able to download a car. Obfuscating the debate is dangerous. Because this debate is going to extend to every single thing that can be built. And it's a lot deeper than just 'theft'.
I pirate shows mostly. And I don't feel any difficulty doing so, because of several reasons. One) I usually downloadthat's shown elsewhere long before here. Two) If places let me legitimately watch online, I'd do that instead of pirating. But you go to someone like NBC and try to watch a show they've put online and they tell you to smurf off. Fine. Obviously they don't want my custom or attention. Three) Yeah the reason I don't pay for
I seriously don't understand why you guys are trying to rely on these technicalities to claim that it's not theft. What's the point? Does not being labeled a thief really make that much of a difference to you? Like I said earlier in the thread, does it really make you feel better about yourself?
I understand stealing to be taking something (even if that "something" is a copy) that does not belong to you and not properly paying for it. Piracy is taking something (again a COPY is SOMETHING) that doesn't belong to you.
You can argue all you want about infringement and how stealing a car is sooooo different from stealing Photoshop but any person with common sense can look at the situation, see that someone is getting Photoshop for free when they should be paying for it, and determine that what just happened was theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Okay, fine. Technicalities aside, you're getting something for free when you should be paying for it-- it's stealing. We're all rotten thieves.
Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?
Look, will Breine and Miriel please tell us what exactly it is that is being stolen? There is indeed something that is being stolen in piracy, but it's not the product itself, which is what Roto is trying to tell you. I know what's being stolen, but it seems you don't, so until you give the answer...
...you're going to keep sounding like a bloody ignorant parrot and Roto is gonna keep tearing you a new asshole.
Please continue tearing these bloody ignorant parrots a new asshole, Roto.
And no, the use of "parrot" is not intended to be in any way connected to pirates. They're just a good example of something whose intellectual limits stretch as far as repeating words they don't even understand.
Stop quoting crap you don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by a parrot
So what's the punishment for piracy anyway? I heard it was very unreasonable.
Depends on where you are. I read that in Japan it is legal to download as long as you aren't making a monetary profit from it, but not to upload/seed. (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just saying what I read).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
As for the US, I'm not sure. I've never been caught before and I've been downloading stuff illegally for a couple of years now.
Yeah, hi, While Roto and the rest of us are engaging in a discussion, you are being absolutely rude and inconsiderate. So this is a warning, act civil or don't post at all. K, thanks. :D Maybe take a page from Roto and post intelligently rather than resorting to crass remarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
Haha, yeah. I'm the one on the pedestal for not trying to shirk a label I rightfully deserve. Sure. :p As for the first part of your post, yup, that's exactly it. Thanks for finally owning up to it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Momiji
I wasn't shirking it to begin with, so don't you 'finally' me. As I said earlier, if I like something I download, I'll buy it if at all possible. Doing so provides money for the company who sells the product, and allows me to free up space on my hard drive. However, if something is out of print/discontinued/costs way too much to begin with, I have no problem downloading it. That's my policy. It doesn't mean that it's legal, but I honestly don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirielHaha, yeah. I'm the one on the pedestal for not trying to shirk a label I rightfully deserve. Sure. :p As for the first part of your post, yup, that's exactly it. Thanks for finally owning up to it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Momiji
I've done it before, certainly. I don't pretend like it's not wrong.
If I ever missed an episode of LOST prior to the addition of them online, I downloaded them. But I bought the full seasons when they came out on DVD.
I don't do it all that much anymore. I downloaded Power Rangers because it's not on DVD and I felt like watching it. I've never downloaded a movie. I don't download music anymore, mainly because you can't even find the music I listen to online. I also know a lot of the artists that I like, and so want to reward them for their good work. I also, quite frankly, like having the liner notes and the actual, physical CDs.
I do not like it when people act like they're not doing anything wrong. When I've done it, I know I'm doing something wrong.
How did this get so heated? Sure its a less immoral kind of stealing. And a "technically not stealing, but still really illegal" kind of stealing. But the point is its happening. The point is not to judge those who are doing it. Just to get them to admit they're doing it. And yeah. Its more of a Robin Hood "stick it to the man" kinda thing. But, well, yeah. I just stick it to the man. They shouldn't charge so much and they should make things more readily available, and then people would probably buy more. 'Cause sometimes its a bitch trying to find it for download. I'm not paying $500 for Photoshop. Adobe is just freaking crazy. Not to mention nobody around here sells it xD
I think games are too expensive. But I buy them. When I can. I don't spend hundreds of dollars on that software. I'm not gonna spend hundreds of dollars on any other software. I'm going to steal it
I totally agree with the Photoshop thing S:
I thought I'd look into Dreamweaver to see if it's any good and it's like $400 or something x.x
I probably won't go through the trouble of pirating that, but I probably would if it took only five minutes of my time to do.
Hmm..
My Business Law book Miriel would disagree with you. For it to count as theft, even intellectual property theft, the company has to have its profit harmed. In other words what you did had to hurt the company. If you never had the intention to buy, if you are not making profit off their product, and if you don't make it available to others; then you are not hurting the company.
This is possibly why Japan, if Momiji is correct, makes it illegal to Seed(because that is making the copies available which could hurt the companies profit) but not necessarily to download(since you may have never had the intention to purchase in the first place).
Not to say that my Business Law book doesn't consider Piracy to be illegal, it is just a different crime than theft. We also made that same distinction in my various Computer Network Administration classes.
Also to note:
Yeah, my law dictionary has the primary definition of Theft redirecting to Larceny without its own definition. In addition my Business law book almost never uses the word theft. It is always Larceny or some other technical term. Theft is used in the Business law book as a broad term to cover a large number of crimes and isn't considered a crime of its own(it is just a category of crimes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Law Dictionary reading of theft
Also, since I will be asked, The book is Business Law Today written by Jentz and Miller. But it made a distinction between theft and piracy. And I figure if a Business Law book and My computer Network Administration classes draw that distinction that it is a fairly valid distinction to draw. But the distinction is that theft must harm the one being stolen from whereas piracy(illegal downloading) does not necessarily harm the company(since the person may not have bought it even if they couldn't download it) and may actually help the company in tiny way(by spreading the word and building interest, sort of like the anime industry and fansubs).
In this ENTIRE thread, I was never talking about legalities. I keep saying this over and over and people don't seem to get it. I don't care about technicalities or what the law says or whether it's illegal, legal, partly legal, whether anyone is getting hurt by it, what your motives are, ETC. You guys keep bringing up that stuff everytime I post, when I'm not even arguing any of that stuff. So I dunno how you can say that your law book "disagrees" with me when I was never talking about the law.
I'll say this AGAIN, common sense says that if you take something that doesn't belong to you and you don't pay for it, you're stealing.
What do I think about piracy, that's the topic of the thread. I think it's stealing. Again and again people try and justify their actions and try and make it seem less than what it is. Companies are too rich! I'm actually HELPING them! Prices are too expensive! Whatever. I honestly don't care about any of that stuff. I don't care what people's motivations are and if quarterly reports are being affected by piracy. I just call it like I see it, and people are getting soooo offended by it. :p
Apparently Common Sense doesn't necessarily dictate as you state. My 'common sense' happens to align with the law on this matter(though it doesn't on other matters). And several people I speak with regularly or even irregularly who don't even know law tend to align themselves the same way(whether or not they pirate, one of them hadn't even realized you could download music... completely and utterly computer illiterate she was).
My point was simply that between trusting what 'one' person thinks as common sense(due to the fact that this sense seems to differ from person to person and from culture to culture) that I would go with the Text book example. My Law professor and even the majority of my Law class happened to figure the book was stating 'common sense'.
In the end I am merely stating that those who say it isn't theft are right. However, like most words in the English language it is open to interpretation and one interpretation is Wiki's - "theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent." Which would probably include piracy(though if you want to argue that it doesn't feel free to do so, I am interested in what could possibly be brought up against that). So basically, they are right and, as long as you don't claim it is always the same legally, you are right. So can we move on now?
Anyways I don't really care what you call it because, thanks to being forced to take some law courses, I happen to know I possess knowledge of the 'correct' terminology as far as objective/educational/legal(take your pick) use of the term is concerned.
I think they're just being nitpicky rather than offended :p
Wow.. I just noticed that my entire last post basically says something like
"You can say it is theft and they can say it isn't theft and you both are right in your own little ways" or some such.
Well I never did claim to be concise. That or maybe my sunburn is a bit worse than I thought.
That be Cap'n Maxx Power ya swab! Batten down the hatches and be hoisting the mainsail, if Piratism not be the greatest thing going since I had myself some fun with five wenches who were...Quote:
Originally Posted by bipper
...wait, what kind of Piracy are we talking about?
I don't think anybody is arguing that it's not illegal or wrong. (In fact I've made sure to be as clear as possible that just because it's not technically stealing, that certainly doesn't absolve anyone of the crime.) For me, at least, it's not the label, I'm just a fan of accuracy. xD If this was theft I'd be fine with being labeled a thief, but it's not. You're not even stealing a copy. The copy isn't taken from anyone who doesn't want you to have it. If I copy a DVD, I'm the one making the copy in the first place so it's mine, even if it is illegal. Buying a DVD grants you the license to watch and use it. Copying the DVD lets you watch the content without a license. That's the illegal part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Miriel already stated that she downloads stuff. She's not trying to look down on anyone, since she's as guilty as the rest of us. :P She's arguing for the same reason I'm arguing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Momiji
Because the law decides what counts as stealing and what doesn't, and that definition doesn't cover what we're talking about. You think it's stealing, some of us and, more importantly, the law disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Yeah, what's up with that? xD I'm not offended, for what it's worth.Quote:
I'll say this AGAIN, common sense says that if you take something that doesn't belong to you and you don't pay for it, you're stealing.
What do I think about piracy, that's the topic of the thread. I think it's stealing. Again and again people try and justify their actions and try and make it seem less than what it is. Companies are too rich! I'm actually HELPING them! Prices are too expensive! Whatever. I honestly don't care about any of that stuff. I don't care what people's motivations are and if quarterly reports are being affected by piracy. I just call it like I see it, and people are getting soooo offended by it. :p
I download stuff and if I really like it I'll buy it.
Because it's accurate. Nothing else. If it was theft I'd call it theft. It's not theft, legally, and the law is what matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
When you 'steal' someone's copy of Photoshop, they can still use it. That's one of the big differences here, and why the theft tag isn't the best one. Theft carries implications that are not accurate; it's not about feeling better about oneself (if anything I feel worse about copyright issues than theft, in fact), it's about accuracy. I mean, come on Miriel, if you don't recognize that people like me and Roto are needlessly pedantic by now... :pQuote:
You can argue all you want about infringement and how stealing a car is sooooo different from stealing Photoshop but any person with common sense can look at the situation, see that someone is getting Photoshop for free when they should be paying for it, and determine that what just happened was theft.
From Wiki: "The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorised taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use."
If it were possible and I could drive the car around without being obvious I downloaded the car (a very difficult feat as I would lack registration and insurance), I would totally download a car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie
I would even go so far as to download a motorcycle. Hey, if you're going to download a vehicle, make it hot enough to get you girls.
What's the topic about again? Oh right
I have no problem with piracy [doing]. I have a lot of problems with piracy [law] versus what I do [illegal pirating]. In short, I know I'm guilty but nobody's prosecuted me yet.
You download something you should be paying for, meaning you take something you should be paying for but you're not.. and that is stealing. It's as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
There's actually a case where a man who worked in a cinema took the film reels, copied them, then brought them back. He was tried for stealing, but got away with it because stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you with the intention to keep it. Since the guy brought the reels back, he wasn't stealing. However, he was breaking a law, just the the theft law.
Stealing would be renting a DVD and keeping it. What Roto does is rent a DVD, copy it, then bring it back, having paid the rent charges. He's not stealing, but he's still being a very naughty boy. If he wanted to be a very very naughty boy, he'd rent the DVD, copy it, return the original, then sell the copies for his own profit. Shame on Roto. :(
Then address this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
See, that's the thing. You don't take anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breine
Ok. So let's say you have this really awesome idea for a new video game. And someone comes around and looks through all your notes and goes out and makes the exact same game before you have the chance to do the same.
Now what would any sane normal person say to that? "Some dude infringed on my intellectual property!!"
No. They would say, "Smurfing jackass stole my idea!"
Get it? Get it? Now don't come at me with any, "well, ACTUALLY, the law says blah blah...." What I'm trying to illustrate and what Breine and I have been saying all along is that it's pretty easy and quite normal to look at pirating and see that it's stealing. I keep saying this over and over, but it's just common sense. And we're using the word "steal" and "theft" the way more average people use the those words. In the general usage of those words and what those words mean to most people.
And you will never ever convince me that people who download stuff have never, not once, downloaded something that otherwise they would have paid for. I don't buy that at all.
Pirating is not stealing.
Well I guess we'll never know because Daria still isn't on DVD. Illegal bootlegs exist but by your definition that's "stealing" so I'd better not buy that because spending whatever they charge to "steal" something I've already "stolen" is a wasted investment.Quote:
And you will never ever convince me that people who download stuff have never, not once, downloaded something that otherwise they would have paid for. I don't buy that at all.
What's that "something"? It can't be the copy of the movie; the DVD is still in the shop with a security tag on it.Quote:
you take something
"Steal" is a transitive verb in that it requires a subject and at least one object. So far all I've seen is subjects, "You're stealing!" and no objects... just people saying "You're stealing!" over and over. As a very pedantic (albeit dyslexic) grammatician, this does not annoy me as much as seeing "would of", "should of", "could of" or any other prepositions being used as auxiliary verbs but it's high up there.
This is a trivia question: What is being stolen?
I'm still waiting for you to show that you understand this the way I do. Until then I'll continue to assume what I've already assumed of you... you're parroting a word someone else told you to use. I don't care if you think I'm being rude, I'm trying to squeeze out proof that you get this, so don't hide behind the way it gets worded. If I had a penny for each time someone was rude to me on this Internet I'd buy the freakin' rights to broadcast my favourite unreleased shows on TV just to watch them myself. Good art is worth good money :)
Haha, you better care because that warning I gave you was an official one. :monster:
You're trying to argue from a standpoint where theft can only be applied to physical products. Obviously we live in a world that is completely different from a world of 50 years ago. Physical products aren't the only things that are being sold anymore. I work as a photographer. If someone managed to get a hold of a COPY of my photographs and got them for free, I would still call it theft, even though the original files remain untouched on my computer. I honestly don't care if people come up with new words to express the same thing. Oooh, it's not stealing it's infringement of copyright! Amounts to pretty much the same thing, imho.
Parroting a word someone else told me to use? Who? Who exactly told me to use that word? Do YOU know who I've been talking to? Who I've had conversations with, what kind of media I consume? Which Wiki pages I browse? Nope, you don't. So don't make silly little assumptions like that. Cause... well, it's silly.
[M. Night Shaymalan] What a twist! [/M. Night Shaymalan] :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
There's nothing wrong with theft at any level. If people are too stupid or weak to protect their possessions then they deserve to have them taken away.
a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.
3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station.
That's a dictionary definition, it doesn't say the word "stole" or "steal" but It sounds just as bad to be honest.
Pirating is not stealing.
It's not stealing, it's plagiarism. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
When people say their idea has been stolen, they're speaking figuratively, not literally. I guess you could make the case that you can say, figuratively, that you're stealing when you download a movie or something, but literally and legally, that's not what you're doing.
I've never downloaded something I otherwise would have bought, but I have downloaded movies I would have rented. I seriously buy as many CDs and DVDs now as I did before I got a decent internet connection. And I buy games like every couple of weeks. Just now I bought a Wii Points card so I can be ready for Cho Aniki on Monday and Mega Man 9 later this month. I could very easily download an emulator to play Cho Aniki (and even use it on my Wii so it'd be almost exactly the same as playing the Virtual Console version). (I don't know if there's ever going to be a PC version of Mega Man 9, though. xP)
Once I finish Disgaea, I'm considering picking up the PS3 version of Oblivion, even though it would be cheaper and easier to download the superior PC version.
But yeah, I do download movies rather than renting them most of the time. :P
Sure thing. But being just as bad doesn't make it the same thing, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dude
YouTube - One Piece MPAA ParodyQuote:
Originally Posted by black orb
Isn't that exactly what the not-thieves are saying? It's not literally theft, but it's basically the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Pretty much. The reason we have these different words and phrases is because these are all different situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harle-QuinIsn't that exactly what the not-thieves are saying? It's not literally theft, but it's basically the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
Actually Miriel in your case it is a bit different. See, more than likely if they published the game first that would keep your from distributing or selling it yourself.
A better example would be if you could cheaply/freely build cars identical(or close enough to it) to name brand cars and then you decided to distribute them to people you know for free. In this case the car company can still sell/distribute their product, so they are not deprived of anything except a 'potential' customer. And if we start outlawing things purely on potential... well I will be moving shortly then.
Of course in this case you would still have the problem that you are copying someone else's work AND using someone else's Logo(the car is identical remember). That would definitely raise legal questions. However, I seriously doubt anyone would call it theft if you took apart a honda insight and from there could create as many as you wanted cheaply freely. You would most likely be hit with other crimes, however, that ain't theft.
Quote:
And you will never ever convince me that people who download stuff have never, not once, downloaded something that otherwise they would have paid for. I don't buy that at all.
Issue a challenge and you shall receive. However, I have a couple questions here. Does this assume the person in question has 'limitless' money(in other words removing the they wouldn't buy it because the cost is too high/they can't afford it)? Does it take into account something downloaded and then later bought once money for said item has been saved up(for now I will ignore whether or not the download was what generated the interest to but to start)?
If neither of those are taken into account I am pretty damn close, if not there. The VAST majority of what I 'pirate' are Japanese/Korean Fansubs. I wouldn't buy the original because.... well I can't read/understand Japanese/Korean. Though if I had limitless cash I would be tempted to import some just as a sign of support to the Japanese creator, but since I will never have limitless cash it is extraordinary unlikely I will do so. If they want me to buy it they should sell it to me in a way that I can use it.
The only thing that I can think of is Japanese Music CD's that I downloaded in the past. If I had large sums of money I would have a lot of them in my own collection. However, with my current funds I am not willing to pay 10 Dollars of shipping on each and every CD, particularly considering Japan sells a lot of singles(I would probably blow at least half a grand on shipping with those rates, no thank you).