So I finally finished the game (thoughts)

After doing some side-quests and junk. With over 90 hours in the game, I decided to beat it.

Was pretty easy, a bit time consuming but not overly so.

My thoughts? I personally am thinking that there is something going on between Ashe and Balthier. I believe I have read before about people mentioning the scene in Pharos when you get to the top, as a hint as well as other hints beforehand. A biggy for me was at the end, (SPOILER)Balthier steals the Strahl back and leaves a note and a ring for Ashe. She is also seen holding the same ring, earlier in the eding, looking out over the Rabanastre and beyond. This all happens while "Kiss Me Good-Bye" is playing the in the background. It sorta sets off alarms for me. So am I the only one that thinks there is the whole AshexBalthier thing hinted at?

Spoilers, obviously, I vaguely remember hearing that some of the Japanese dialogue exchanged between Balthier and Ashe at the end of the game (specifically when the party learns that Balthier and Fran have stayed behind to stop Bahamut from crashing into Rabanastre) was a lot more explicit.

That said, I doubt that the camera pans to an annoyed Balthier in every scene in which Ashe is being courted by Al-Cid is unintentional. Watch the scenes on Mt. Bur-Omisace and (more importantly) Reddas's Mansion when Al-Cid is talking to Ashe. Balthier looks obviously annoyed (jealous?).

Throughout the story, Balthier and Ashe have quite a few heart-to-heart moments as well (the Phon Coast comes to mind). Also, the ring was the payment he took before the group set out for Mt. Bur-Omisace. It was Ashe's wedding ring from her marriage to Rassler.

Anyway, given how subtle the character development is in FFXII, I don't think it was made to be absolutely clear. Their relationship (or non-relationship, as it were) was not meant to be the main focus. If it had, there would have been clearer resolution.

I always did get the feeling that there was something between the two, but I never expected anything to come of it. The adherence to a set social structure is far too rigid throughout FFXII for such a thing to work. This isn't FFIX where everyone just turns a blind eye to the fact that the Queen is in love with a thief. The ending of FFXII make it clear that certain standards are maintained: Penelo and Vaan return to relative anonymity. Balthier and Fran continue their lives as outcast sky pirates with a price on their heads. Basch forsakes his own identity to assume that of his brother. Ashe becomes Queen and becomes estranged from the others. A relationship between the two would be inconsistent with the narrative.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Spoilers, obviously, I vaguely remember hearing that some of the Japanese dialogue exchanged between Balthier and Ashe at the end of the game (specifically when the party learns that Balthier and Fran have stayed behind to stop Bahamut from crashing into Rabanastre) was a lot more explicit.

That said, I doubt that the camera pans to an annoyed Balthier in every scene in which Ashe is being courted by Al-Cid is unintentional. Watch the scenes on Mt. Bur-Omisace and (more importantly) Reddas's Mansion when Al-Cid is talking to Ashe. Balthier looks obviously annoyed (jealous?).

Throughout the story, Balthier and Ashe have quite a few heart-to-heart moments as well (the Phon Coast comes to mind). Also, the ring was the payment he took before the group set out for Mt. Bur-Omisace. It was Ashe's wedding ring from her marriage to Rassler.

Anyway, given how subtle the character development is in FFXII, I don't think it was made to be absolutely clear. Their relationship (or non-relationship, as it were) was not meant to be the main focus. If it had, there would have been clearer resolution.

I always did get the feeling that there was something between the two, but I never expected anything to come of it. The adherence to a set social structure is far too rigid throughout FFXII for such a thing to work. This isn't FFIX where everyone just turns a blind eye to the fact that the Queen is in love with a thief. The ending of FFXII make it clear that certain standards are maintained: Penelo and Vaan return to relative anonymity. Balthier and Fran continue their lives as outcast sky pirates with a price on their heads. Basch forsakes his own identity to assume that of his brother. Ashe becomes Queen and becomes estranged from the others. A relationship between the two would be inconsistent with the narrative.

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You know, I noticed a lot of that stuff, but I never put it together. xP

There were lil bits between them, but the ending when he returns the ring.
I took it to mean that he was returning it because he'd found something more valuable (he said that he would return it in that event)

He has been absent for a Year, We don't know whats happened between then and the Bahamut. but Fran is recovered, thats all we know. Maybe he had what he wanted all along, his freedom.

I can't see him leaving behind his pirating to be with Ashe and Ashe would never ditch dalmasca to be with him, so it not love. I think it was a ladies-man/ princess passing crush

He doesn't seem to be at all interested in her in Revenant wings. But there is a tension between him and Fran which raises more questions. The two of them seem rather affected Mydia (a veira) who fell in love with a Hume.
Lots of lil things between them suggest that they are more than friends. some angsting as well on Fran's behalf which would make a relationship between ashe and balthier rather Heartbreaking because of her obvious devotion.

To sum up i think that Its leaning far more towards Fran and Balthier.
and also very slightly Basch/Ashe,

Kiss me Goodbye relates to all the characters seperately at different parts, it could be leaning to any number of romances.

And what do you mean about the scene at the top of the Pharos, what i remember about that scene is that Ashe and Vaan are trying to attack those stones,
Whilst Balthier and Fran share the most emotional scene (between main characters anyway) in the game. the emotion stemming from Fran's tenderness and devotion even tho shes a veira who are usually cold and Balthier's refusal to leave her behind???
I can't see how that suggests balthier and Ashe??

The ring he left for her? It was hers to begin with, one he took earlier in the game as 'payment' for his services:D He was just returning it, as part of his 'dramatic return'.

'Sides, I'm a firm believer in Fran/Balthier.

He didn't even visit Ashe in person to give the ring back, he just sent Vaan to do it.

I think that all though he's a ladies-man and he flirts around with Penelo and Ashe, that by the end it clear that there is only one girl for him, and thats Fran.
She gets him and he gets her and no amount of pretty girls can come between a bond like that. and come on Fran is gorgeous,

Sorry about forgetting plot details. It has been ages since I played, so I forget all that stuff, but now that it was mentioned, I remember that payment part. x-x; Kinda wanna replay the game now...

Also, Kiss Me Good-bye has always had the feeling of a love song to me. Oddly enough, I had listened to the song quite a few times before I actually heard it in the game (Huge Angela Aki fan :D). It had always struck me as a love song. Especially, after I read the lyrics. it seems, to me, that it speaks in part about Rasler and Ashe's relationship, but more of the possible relationship between Ashe and Balthier. Keeping in mind what Ouch! said about the rigidity of the social structure and such, it seems like it fits well the relationship (if it were to exist) between Ashe and Balthier. Then again, I could be conveniently interpreting the song like that.

Edit: After reading Lunar's post, I realize I mistaken Ouch! for Omecle. x-x;;;

I always saw Kiss Me Goodbye as nothing but a generic J-Pop ballad type thrown in there for the sake of having it. I never put actual meaning to it, and I didn't think it fit the game at all. But then I hated the song, so maybe that's just me.

Balthier has some sparks with Ashe and Fran here and there. But it was never the focus of the story, so I never paid it too much attention. Ouch! does bring up some really good points, though.

I think there is a little romance going on between our Sky Pirate and Royal. :love: Though it would never work out as Ouch! pointed that out. Course I see him having some times with Fran as well. I find it amusing that his picture with her shown in the credits has her stopping him from "getting a feel".

The only romance I never understood is the notion that Basch and Lady Ashe have a thing going. Ashe never shows interest in Basch and Basch's concerns for her seem more out of duty and honor than unrequited love. Unless something happened in Revnant Wings, I find this pairing completely unjustified.

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Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane

She gets him and he gets her and no amount of pretty girls can come between a bond like that. and come on Fran is gorgeous,

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If you're into freaky rabbit monsters, sure.

Well who the hell isn't?

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Originally Posted by Roto13

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Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane

She gets him and he gets her and no amount of pretty girls can come between a bond like that. and come on Fran is gorgeous,

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If you're into freaky rabbit monsters, sure.

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different world = different rules.
you can't apply that type of logic to Ivalice as its clearly not that much of a taboo for a Veira and a Hume to get together. In revenant wings there is a Seeq married to a veira, now that weird as shes so pretty and he's so .... um not.
All that appears to be different is the ears and the shape of the feet. Hume and Veira are different races not different species. so its a moot point.
And Fran is not freaky or a monster. shes great lol

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Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane

And what do you mean about the scene at the top of the Pharos, what i remember about that scene is that Ashe and Vaan are trying to attack those stones,
Whilst Balthier and Fran share the most emotional scene (between main characters anyway) in the game. the emotion stemming from Fran's tenderness and devotion even tho shes a veira who are usually cold and Balthier's refusal to leave her behind???
I can't see how that suggests balthier and Ashe??

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Apparently in the Japanese version of that scene Fran comments on Balthier having another woman or something.

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Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane

you can't apply that type of logic to Ivalice as its clearly not that much of a taboo for a Veira and a Hume to get together.

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Except they're not supposed to leave their forest villages, lest they be forever exiled. And then there's the fact that there's no male viera as far as I've seen, so just how do they breed? It suggests there's a biological reason for Viera not to be involved with non-Vierans... Vieri... FREAKING-RABBIT-PEOPLE-THINGS (probably just Viera, like sheep, but whatever). So yeah, I'd say it is actually somewhat taboo.

According to Wikipedia, the FFXII Ultimania says that male and female Viera live in separate villages, and maintain pretty strict isolation from one another except when they have to make contact. No idea of the rationale for this, but I guess it could have something to do with avoiding over-population ('cause of their long lifespans) or a self-destructive reaction to their culture and species dwindling away.
In the game, we only ever see female Viera around the place, so presumably the males are even more cloistered.

As for humans and Viera getting busy: around Rabanastre, there're quite a few NPCs who squee over some hot Viera chick they saw earlier; there's even the 'soul mate' side-quest where Vaan helps to set a guy up with one such Viera. Turns out she's had something like 30 (human?) lovers before, believing each one to be her soul mate before moving on.

Thankfully, there's nothing that suggests intimacy between the other Ivalice species. Humans and Viera are presumably only compatible because they're both mammals with relatively similar biology. Moreso than humans and Seeq or Bangaa or Moogles or Baknamy or whatever.

I want SeeqxBaknamy hentai.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Acula

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Originally Posted by PeneloRatsbane

And what do you mean about the scene at the top of the Pharos, what i remember about that scene is that Ashe and Vaan are trying to attack those stones,
Whilst Balthier and Fran share the most emotional scene (between main characters anyway) in the game. the emotion stemming from Fran's tenderness and devotion even tho shes a veira who are usually cold and Balthier's refusal to leave her behind???
I can't see how that suggests balthier and Ashe??

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Apparently in the Japanese version of that scene Fran comments on Balthier having another woman or something.

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ohh i thought that it was at the end in the japanese one where she teases him by saying "whats it like to be a hansome man?" or something and he goes " shut up" as if its no big deal.
never heard anything bout the pharos tho

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Originally Posted by Big D

According to Wikipedia, the FFXII Ultimania says that male and female Viera live in separate villages, and maintain pretty strict isolation from one another except when they have to make contact. No idea of the rationale for this, but I guess it could have something to do with avoiding over-population ('cause of their long lifespans) or a self-destructive reaction to their culture and species dwindling away.
In the game, we only ever see female Viera around the place, so presumably the males are even more cloistered.

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Ah yes, the Ultimanias. "Oh no, we didn't actually explain anything in the game, so it doesn't make any real sense!" If it was meant to be in the game, it'd be in the game. This ultimania crap is insulting, that we should have to rely on external sources to find out more about the world of the games we play. It just royally pisses me off.

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Originally Posted by Spatvark

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Originally Posted by Big D

According to Wikipedia, the FFXII Ultimania says that male and female Viera live in separate villages, and maintain pretty strict isolation from one another except when they have to make contact. No idea of the rationale for this, but I guess it could have something to do with avoiding over-population ('cause of their long lifespans) or a self-destructive reaction to their culture and species dwindling away.
In the game, we only ever see female Viera around the place, so presumably the males are even more cloistered.

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Ah yes, the Ultimanias. "Oh no, we didn't actually explain anything in the game, so it doesn't make any real sense!" If it was meant to be in the game, it'd be in the game. This ultimania crap is insulting, that we should have to rely on external sources to find out more about the world of the games we play. It just royally pisses me off.

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I wonder what the possibility is that they do that mostly to get fans to buy the Ultimania just to get the extra story bits that they left out. Infact that could be another question, I wonder if they purposely leave things out just to put it in the Ultimania.

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Originally Posted by Spatvark

If it was meant to be in the game, it'd be in the game.

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Like it or not, they're canon.

I just figures it was a "female dwarf" situation.

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Originally Posted by Spatvark

Ah yes, the Ultimanias. "Oh no, we didn't actually explain anything in the game, so it doesn't make any real sense!" If it was meant to be in the game, it'd be in the game. This ultimania crap is insulting, that we should have to rely on external sources to find out more about the world of the games we play. It just royally pisses me off.

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Lord this bothers me as well. XII was pretty bad but not as lousy as CC, as far as I know the Ultimania is the only place you can learn the motive of one of the major characters whose role is pretty pivotal and lack of explanation makes the plot somewhat confusing. AC had a similar problem...

I've heard FFX has some important backstory elements that are only available from the Ultimania. I didn't mind with Xenogears cause it was obvious the game was half finished but some of the recent FF ones are ridiculous since they detail important story elements that should have been in the game.