Bad Galbadia

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11-10-2008, 01:36 AM
Serapy

Bad Galbadia

Galbadia has represented its symbol countless times in the game.

1) Biggs`s damaged tool which consisted of Galbadia`s symbol. He threw it away and used a replacement which finally made the communication tower to work properly.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2240/dolletpd6.jpg

2) X-ATM092 was born from Galbadia`s territory, therefore it's quite logical to represent the symbol of its own creation ...

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7...machineov4.jpg

3) Fake Deling President`s train.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7914/trainku5.jpg

3) The broadcast room at T.V Station.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/9...stationrk1.jpg

4) Deling`s front gate.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/313/gateui0.jpg

5) The flags, the gate, and the flashlight all in one shot.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6247/delingww2.jpg

6) Deling`s back gate.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/3264/delinggatebq9.jpg

7) The dancers of the possessed Edea`s event.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8...ldanceryp7.jpg

8) This place is where Irvine takes a shot at Edea.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8963/groundrm2.jpg

9) Of course, Galbadian Soldier.

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2585/soliderdb7.jpg

10) Galbadia`s car. I'm assuming other cars have this symbol too.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7052/carplatezu5.jpg

11) Deling`s station.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...3/Deling_3.jpg

12) Deling`s mansion. Isn't it ironic that Rinoa's father owns this mansion?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...1/Deling_4.jpg

11) Galbadia`s Prison Cell.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7...ioncellzc0.jpg

12) Galbadian forces` bikes.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8421/bikecc8.jpg

13) Galbadian forces` helicopters. G.D.F stands for GalbaDian Forces, Square did this not to confuse G.D.F with G.F.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1395/46405452up8.jpg

The concept of abusing specific symbol is similar to Shin-Ra in FFVII and Nazi in real life.

This is why Ultimecia wanted to take control of Galbadia at early stages. Later, she then wanted to take control of everything since she got mad due to the legendary SeeD's encounter.
11-10-2008, 02:07 AM
Saber

what else could I say

You should pitch a tee shirt idea with that symbol on it.
11-10-2008, 02:26 AM
rubah

Or it's just that Nomura kinda went nuts with FF8, incorporating symbols everywhere. He even drew the mascot for the Galbadia Garden ice hockey team, and the Balamb Garden logo can be found on the cuffs of SeeD member uniforms.
11-10-2008, 03:49 AM
Saber

Back again

Symbols go a long way, including holding memories, or a great
representation. In this fantasy square gave us, they went detailed into having a world with leading symbols. I think its cool they went into detail with it and put it in there game. Have you ever made a symbol up? I have and it was cool enough to put on all my note books and stuff in school.

PS : Good find
11-10-2008, 03:15 PM
MJN SEIFER

I quite like how Square create symbols for things, (in many FFs, not just VIII) and then put them in various places relevant to whatever they represent, without really highlighting that they have done so - it's just like symbols of the real world, and adds a bit of realism to the FF world.
11-10-2008, 04:37 PM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubah Mortis

Or it's just that Nomura kinda went nuts with FF8, incorporating symbols everywhere. He even drew the mascot for the Galbadia Garden ice hockey team, and the Balamb Garden logo can be found on the cuffs of SeeD member uniforms.

Yes, but the amount of Galbadia abusing its symbol is quite huge when compared to other gardens.

This led me to believe that everything what Galbadia has represented in this game are based on the bad side, which explains why Ultimecia chose to rule them in the first place. It wouldn't make sense if Ultimecia wanted to rule the good side, right?

In the beginning of the game, when Ultimecia possessed Matron, she acknowledges this thought from Matron:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Same Squall in the Past era

Squall: Both Garden and SeeD were your ideas. Garden trains SeeDs.
SeeDs are trained to defeat the sorceress.

At first, Ultimecia probably thinks that this SeeD thought is not a concern. Which explains why she got very mad after her defeat by SeeDs later in the game.

So when Ultimecia came into our world, she initially wanted to rule Galbadia without thinking about SeeD (because it wasn`t a concern), that`s all. When she met Squall, she was quite surprised and started calling him the legendary SeeD. After her defeat, she changes her mind and wants to rule every single atom in order to destory everything, mainly SeeDs. Why? Something to do with revenge and of course fate.

And then the loop gets repeated ...
11-10-2008, 05:04 PM
crazybayman

I had no idea the Galbadia symbol was displayed that much. Nice work.
11-11-2008, 03:04 AM
Jessweeee♪

Never noticed it!
11-11-2008, 08:41 AM
Iceglow

Gabaldia is a military country, it is ruled by a president at the start of the game who is likened to a dictator on more than one occassion, it's then siezed by Edea when she kills Deling at the welcome ceremony for her. Edea truly is a dictator, she rose to power by force and ruled without democratic competition. Most of the locations you show are in Gabaldia's capital city, Deling City (Deling was president, how dictatorish to re-name a city after yourself? I think this stands as sufficient evidence of the dictatorship ruling. I believe there was more information on this ingame somewhere I will attempt to find it on my current play through) A military state will have it's flag everywhere for propaganda reasoning the more flags flying the more "pride" there is to be of that nation. It's very similar to America actually in this regard, both display their flag for everything and anything. General Caraway's mansion at the least and the presidential palace are both very explicably highly decorated with the symbol...after all would you be happy if the houses of parliament, buckingham palace and whitehall didn't display the union jack or if the pentagon, white house and capitol hill didn't display the star spangled banner? Ofcourse not, it's propaganda and patriotism.

As for the gabaldian troops and other military assests, including X-ATM092 and the bikes, all military forces and equipment displaying the flag of their country on their uniforms and such...it's necessary for many reasons, the main one being identification. In WW1 and WW2 many bodies were badly mangled by artillery or tanks, the presence of identifying flags on multiple locations of the body provided atleast a nationality for the dead in question. This is something which has been realized for centuries and yet re-learnt in the two great wars, look at how distinctive the uniforms of the troops at the battle of waterloo were? Red coats british, blue coats french. spanish troops wore gold and green. I'd expect no less than to see the Gabaldian flag everywhere on their military equipment. As for the G.D.F. standing for GabaDian Forces, I have a better suggestion of what it means though ofcourse am willing to admit I may be wrong: Gabaldian Defense Forces. I say this because Square is a japanese company and it is popular in square games to make references to the Japanese army, the Japanese army is called the JDF or "Japanese Defence Forces" the JDF includes the police if I remember correctly. Ofcourse if anyone has a official source stating the GDF stands for GabalDian Forces I will conceede the point there, however if this is a hunch then I'd go with my own definition as the most probable.

Car registration plates in the uk don't have the nationality of the car unless the car happens to be foreign so e.g. one of my old housemates, her boyfriend drove a golf but he brought it over in Poland and drove it here, because he brought it in poland it had the EU logo of stars on the reg plates, however a friend who drives a golf he brought from his local dealer in essex does not. In america obviously states are placed on the car registration plates, I imagine with Gabaldia, Timber and Dollet sharing a continent it is treated similar to the usa in this regard and that timber and dollet produce their own car registration plates with their hearaldic crest on. Though Timber may use the Gabaldian crest since it has been occupied for 17 years.

PS. Side note, thats not Bigg's tool, it's his tool kit if you look at the fmv it's taken from a wrench vibrates itself free of the bag and bounces down the tower to the ocean below.
11-11-2008, 06:56 PM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Gabaldia is a military country, it is ruled by a president at the start of the game who is likened to a dictator on more than one occassion, it's then siezed by Edea when she kills Deling at the welcome ceremony for her. Edea truly is a dictator, she rose to power by force and ruled without democratic competition.

No, that was all Ultimecia, not Edea. Ultimecia was inside Edea`s body during most of the Disk 1 event. I.e. when she killed Deling, taking control of Gabaldia, giving orders, etc until SeeDs defeated her later in the game: she got out of Edea`s body. When Ultimecia possesses you, you pretty can't do anything to stop her from interposing your decisions.

If Ultimecia didn't possesses Edea in the first place, there's no way for Edea to kill Deling and take control of Gabaldia.

This thread acting as a possibility was to show why Ultimecia chose them, not other continents.

Quote:

Most of the locations you show are in Gabaldia's capital city, Deling City (Deling was president, how dictatorish to re-name a city after yourself? I think this stands as sufficient evidence of the dictatorship ruling. I believe there was more information on this ingame somewhere I will attempt to find it on my current play through) A military state will have it's flag everywhere for propaganda reasoning the more flags flying the more "pride" there is to be of that nation. It's very similar to America actually in this regard, both display their flag for everything and anything. General Caraway's mansion at the least and the presidential palace are both very explicably highly decorated with the symbol...after all would you be happy if the houses of parliament, buckingham palace and whitehall didn't display the union jack or if the pentagon, white house and capitol hill didn't display the star spangled banner? Ofcourse not, it's propaganda and patriotism.

The universes of real life and FF8 are very different. Galbadia is not standardised in this game because other continents serve different purposes.

Quote:

As for the gabaldian troops and other military assests, including X-ATM092 and the bikes, all military forces and equipment displaying the flag of their country on their uniforms and such...it's necessary for many reasons, the main one being identification. In WW1 and WW2 many bodies were badly mangled by artillery or tanks, the presence of identifying flags on multiple locations of the body provided atleast a nationality for the dead in question. This is something which has been realized for centuries and yet re-learnt in the two great wars, look at how distinctive the uniforms of the troops at the battle of waterloo were? Red coats british, blue coats french. spanish troops wore gold and green. I'd expect no less than to see the Gabaldian flag everywhere on their military equipment. As for the G.D.F. standing for GabaDian Forces, I have a better suggestion of what it means though ofcourse am willing to admit I may be wrong: Gabaldian Defense Forces. I say this because Square is a japanese company and it is popular in square games to make references to the Japanese army, the Japanese army is called the JDF or "Japanese Defence Forces" the JDF includes the police if I remember correctly. Ofcourse if anyone has a official source stating the GDF stands for GabalDian Forces I will conceede the point there, however if this is a hunch then I'd go with my own definition as the most probable.

You mean JSDF?

When g-garden and b-garden collide with each other, the g-forces were the first to get out of the garden and flew to b-garden to attack it and its people, all took place on a different continent. Did that count as defense? Nope.

Quote:

PS. Side note, thats not Bigg's tool, it's his tool kit if you look at the fmv it's taken from a wrench vibrates itself free of the bag and bounces down the tower to the ocean below.

Either way, it was his tool.
11-11-2008, 10:47 PM
Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

No, that was all Ultimecia, not Edea. Ultimecia was inside Edea`s body during most of the Disk 1 event. I.e. when she killed Deling, taking control of Gabaldia, giving orders, etc until SeeDs defeated her later in the game: she got out of Edea`s body. When Ultimecia possesses you, you pretty can't do anything to stop her from interposing your decisions.

If Ultimecia didn't possesses Edea in the first place, there's no way for Edea to kill Deling and take control of Gabaldia.

This thread acting as a possibility was to show why Ultimecia chose them, not other continents.

The fact remains that whether or not Ultimecia was in control of Edea or not the body used was Edea's at the time the character is introduced as Edea...lets not get in to this debate, yes it was Ultimecia but from the standpoint of a player playing the game and ignoring or not knowing the storyline then it's Edea.

Quote:

The universes of real life and FF8 are very different. Galbadia is not standardised in this game because other continents serve different purposes.

True FF8 is a "Final Fantasy" key word in this being "fantasy" however, all the armies show their heraldic devices on their armour from SeeD cadets through to Estharian soldiers and Timber's guards. Heck even the Dollet dukedom soldiers you encounter in the Dollet mission have distinct uniforms, if we actually got a better look at them than we do no doubt we'd find Dollet Dukedom heraldic devices on their uniforms. Also the fact that FF8 is a fantasy world does not detract from the statement that Gabaldia is a military country, most (if not all from the sheer number of soldiers you kill in game) people seem to have served in their army this is probably due to a form of national service, another thing which whilst abolished in the UK and America was and still is popular around the world including in China, Sweeden, Italy and a fair few other places so it could well be in the game especially for a millitary state. Though I've never noticed mention of females in the G-army. In a millitary country you still expect to see the paraphanalia of the government ruling over it all over the show, in this case it is the heraldic device or "crest" of Gabaldia. What the crest stands for is not clear, for all we know it was done to look pretty. SeeD's crest or heraldic device depending on how archaic a term we look to use features a stylised yin yang this could easily be used to describe the very nature of SeeD they're neither good nor evil in themselves for they are a mercenary force and good, evil, right and wrong are matters of opinion and from their opinion only the opinions of the one paying the bill matters.

Quote:

You mean JSDF?

When g-garden and b-garden collide with each other, the g-forces were the first to get out of the garden and flew to b-garden to attack it and its people, all took place on a different continent. Did that count as defense? Nope.

Heres a fun quote for you:

The best defense is a good offense.

I believe Sun Tzu wrote that or atleast the basic jist of it is written by him in his masterwork which to this very day over 1000 years later is applicable to warfare. What Gabaldia does when the two gardens collide is textbook good defense, they used an offense to strike first, strike fast and hard enough that your enemies cannot retaliate it's pretty obvious going up against the most elite mercenary fighting force in the world which has repeatedly for around 20 years creamed you means you're going to hit them when they're under-prepared and hit hard (maybe put yourself in a similar situation, you bump in to a guy who has in the past kicked the absoloute hell out of you, you've been putting round he better watch himself otherwise you're going to kick him down he may or may not have heard it, either way if he decides to kick your ass he can and has done in the past...so you go on the offensive and hit him as hard as possible and hope he cannot get up to hit you back if it works you've won if it doesn't then you're in trouble but it's the best way to defend yourself because if he had heard the rumour and wanted to he could kick the hell out of you anyway trying and failing is more honorable than not trying at all) not to mention we have to remember their CINC was Seifer Almasy, he was NEVER one to be sitting around waiting for his enemies to set the course of battle he proves this during the Dollet training mission. However lets throw some other examples of a good offense acting as a great defense; Pearl Harbor the american's took almost a year to get back up to strength from this, The Battle of Britain the luftwaffe was defeated and never recovered, D-Day well Britain was on the verge of being invaded, already the southern counties were being shelled and the luftwaffe could take off from northern france and some bombers were going to make it through a good offensive action here won the war and killed nazi germany...ok theres 3 and I'm only just skimming ww2 here. Also Gabaldian Defense Force makes far more sense to me since there is a full stop in your image between the G and the D otherwise it'd be GD.F. Gabaldian is 1 word even if you capitalize D a period or full stop indicates in initials a second word...I'm not going to debate grammar with you or the rules of the english language.

Quote:

Either way, it was his tool.

That was sarcastic nit-picking but if we're going to debate it no it's not his tool, it is his tool bag and his tools were kept inside of it a tool bag is not a tool it is a container for a tool (before anyone comments, yes a container can be a tool it is a tool for holding something, the big difference here is we are debating a repair tool, a tool bag does not repair anything in itself and therefore I am deliberately ignoring that it is a tool to hold something for you) I respect most of your idea's Serapy (I said I respect them because you put so much conviction in them, I never once indicated I agreed with you on them) but this thread had little or no topic really but a discussion as to why the Gabaldian crest is so prominent in the Gabaldian capitol city and military equipment, I have given you a very suitable answer which makes sense because in reality we know I'm right. After all I am yet to hear anyone including you refute that Gabaldia is a military state, of course you could do that but the actions of Gabaldia in the game and in the background information of the game speak volumes otherwise.
11-13-2008, 07:55 AM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

No, that was all Ultimecia, not Edea. Ultimecia was inside Edea`s body during most of the Disk 1 event. I.e. when she killed Deling, taking control of Gabaldia, giving orders, etc until SeeDs defeated her later in the game: she got out of Edea`s body. When Ultimecia possesses you, you pretty can't do anything to stop her from interposing your decisions.

If Ultimecia didn't possesses Edea in the first place, there's no way for Edea to kill Deling and take control of Gabaldia.

This thread acting as a possibility was to show why Ultimecia chose them, not other continents.

The fact remains that whether or not Ultimecia was in control of Edea or not the body used was Edea's at the time the character is introduced as Edea...lets not get in to this debate, yes it was Ultimecia but from the standpoint of a player playing the game and ignoring or not knowing the storyline then it's Edea.

That standpoint only applies to new players who are still progressing the game`s journey [Disk 1]. At this point, of course, they will look at her and think "Oh, so that`s a villain called Edea". Later in the game, a surprise comes into play: Edea stating that it wasn`t her who did the dirty work. SquareSoft did this intentionally because they wanted to surprise you.

When such players have completed the game, they began wondering about the plot and when it comes to making theories; that standpoint of what you said is no longer valid. This thread is an example of what I meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

The universes of real life and FF8 are very different. Galbadia is not standardised in this game because other continents serve different purposes.

True FF8 is a "Final Fantasy" key word in this being "fantasy" however, all the armies show their heraldic devices on their armour from SeeD cadets through to Estharian soldiers and Timber's guards. Heck even the Dollet dukedom soldiers you encounter in the Dollet mission have distinct uniforms, if we actually got a better look at them than we do no doubt we'd find Dollet Dukedom heraldic devices on their uniforms. ....

Yes, I know that there`s an amount of symbols in the game, but they are not relevant to what I`m talking about in here.

What`s relevant is that Galbadia was involved in Ultimecia`s plan, and the fact that Ultimecia lacks information about herself from the game. If the game has had more information about her, I would of not have posted this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

You mean JSDF?

When g-garden and b-garden collide with each other, the g-forces were the first to get out of the garden and flew to b-garden to attack it and its people, all took place on a different continent. Did that count as defense? Nope.

Heres a fun quote for you:

The best defense is a good offense.

Not necessarily. A split of defense and offense is always better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

What Gabaldia does when the two gardens collide is textbook good defense,

I'm not talking about in general. A mutlihelicopter with G.D.F labelled on it came to balamb garden and attacked it, when you view it in one shot, it's technically called offense, not "good" defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Also Gabaldian Defense Force makes far more sense to me since there is a full stop in your image between the G and the D otherwise it'd be GD.F. Gabaldian is 1 word even if you capitalize D a period or full stop indicates in initials a second word...I'm not going to debate grammar with you or the rules of the english language.

The game only mentioned Galbadian forces, Galbadia Army and G-Army. That`s the problem.

Quote:

Quote:

Either way, it was his tool.

That was sarcastic nit-picking but if we're going to debate it no it's not his tool, it is his tool bag and his tools were kept inside of it

No, I wasn`t being sarcastic. If that tool, thing, whatever was in his possession, then it`s his.

Quote:

but this thread had little or no topic really but a discussion as to why the Gabaldian crest is so prominent in the Gabaldian capitol city and military equipment

Not exactly, as I've said above, this thread was to show why Ultimecia chose to rule Galbadia in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I have given you a very suitable answer which makes sense because in reality we know I'm right.

While the hidden plot of this game has proven to be mysterious (not 100% proven correct), therefore nobody is right or wrong regardless of what they may have done. Only SquareSoft knows the answer and I doubt they will tell us because there`s no reason for them to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

After all I am yet to hear anyone including you refute that Gabaldia is a military state, of course you could do that but the actions of Gabaldia in the game and in the background information of the game speak volumes otherwise.

There`s no reason for me to reply your specific statements (which is why I removed most parts of your post) because they don't have anything to do with this thread`s objective, but either way, nice contribution you have there.
11-13-2008, 09:36 AM
Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Yes, I know that there`s an amount of symbols in the game, but they are not relevant to what I`m talking about in here.

What`s relevant is that Galbadia was involved in Ultimecia`s plan, and the fact that Ultimecia lacks information about herself from the game. If the game has had more information about her, I would of not have posted this thread.

Please note, everytime you come out with one of your theories it ends up going back and forth mostly between you and me and everyone else loses interest FAST maybe I'm too nice to just say "serapy, you're full of it" and walk away like some do or maybe I'm just a sucker who is starting to worry about you because your theories are insane and if you put the effort and energy in to your life as you do these theories it'd make your life a whole lot better off. I won't call it either way, but your theories as you call them about FF8 turn lots of people away from discussing things with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Not necessarily. A split of defense and offense is always better.

You know, I'm not even going to give this proper response other than to say you're arguing with Sun Tzu a man whose masterpiece has stayed revelant for over 1000 years of combat and claim you know better about military combat than every officier, general or warlord who has followed this up to and including the united states army. No matter the technological advancements the art of war has remained a very relevant. Perhaps more so today then in the past where engagements were fought between thousands in 1 location and today where we sometimes have a platoon or squad against an entire enemy position. LOL!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

The game only mentioned Galbadian forces, Galbadia Army and G-Army. That`s the problem.

In correct english you do not have to state Gabaldian Defense Forces every time you refer to them, if Japan's military is/was out in a warzone working with the united states they would be refered to as Japanese forces...G.D.F however is a 3 word initial and you cannot argue this it's a fact of the english language therefore Gabaldian.Defense.Forces makes the most sense it could be Gabaldian Diabolical Forces but I figure it's defense you know just because well Diabolical in there would be rather stupid an army wouldn't refer to itself as crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Not exactly, as I've said above, this thread was to show why Ultimecia chose to rule Galbadia in the first place.

Oh this is actually what the topic of this is, you had me convinced that it was musing over why Gabaldia chose to show off their banner all the time because enough said thats what the first post looks like and it's not like there was any text formatting to point out otherwise.

As for why Ultimecia picks Gabaldia out to rule over, well SeeD is the only military force in Balamb, she's unable to rule there because it's prophecised SeeD will destroy her, Timber, Dollet both are ruled by Gabaldia pretty much, Dollet remains independent but it's pretty obvious that Dollet would fail to remain sovereign should Gabaldia try properly unless SeeD intervened. Esthar is the only other country in the world apart from Gabaldia which has a military of enough strength or had one at least. She may have known where Esthar was but she needed to get past their protective technology ect. So she takes over the biggest or second biggest millitary there is, what better way to get Esthar open again then to gear up towards a massive war which Esthar would need to get involved in to stop or even just get the Gabaldian force behind her enough to attack Esthar directly, she wanted Adel and Ellone that was all. Gabaldia is a means to an end, to do this you need power a millitary country like Gabaldia is useful for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

While the hidden plot of this game has proven to be mysterious (not 100% proven correct), therefore nobody is right or wrong regardless of what they may have done. Only SquareSoft knows the answer and I doubt they will tell us because there`s no reason for them to do so.

Well you know, if you won't listen to the rest of us who have told you time and time again that your theories are blown out of proportion and your going overboard why bother posting them here, you're admitting here that we cannot prove you right or wrong (well we can, but you won't accept it unless it comes from square) so why don't you just spam their e-mails with these theories I'm betting if they did reply to you they'd tell you you're wrong too is it that you're scared to admit you know most of your theories are ungrounded?

To anyone else who has read this and thinks I'm a little harsh here, I'm sorry I've had 2 hours of nap today and well, I've also had too much Serapy for a lifetime.
11-13-2008, 10:13 AM
NeoCracker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Well you know, if you won't listen to the rest of us who have told you time and time again that your theories are blown out of proportion and your going overboard why bother posting them here, you're admitting here that we cannot prove you right or wrong (well we can, but you won't accept it unless it comes from square)

Probably for the same you keep arguing with him over his theories, even though you admitted he won't accept it anyway. :p
11-13-2008, 11:55 AM
The Last Oath

wow, that makes so much sense
11-13-2008, 12:41 PM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Yes, I know that there`s an amount of symbols in the game, but they are not relevant to what I`m talking about in here.

What`s relevant is that Galbadia was involved in Ultimecia`s plan, and the fact that Ultimecia lacks information about herself from the game. If the game has had more information about her, I would of not have posted this thread.

Please note, everytime you come out with one of your theories it ends up going back and forth mostly between you and me and everyone else loses interest FAST maybe I'm too nice to just say "serapy, you're full of it" and walk away like some do or maybe I'm just a sucker who is starting to worry about you because your theories are insane and if you put the effort and energy in to your life as you do these theories it'd make your life a whole lot better off. I won't call it either way, but your theories as you call them about FF8 turn lots of people away from discussing things with you.

If you lose interest in me too fast, then that`s fine, just don`t bother posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Not necessarily. A split of defense and offense is always better.

You know, I'm not even going to give this proper response other than to say you're arguing with Sun Tzu a man whose masterpiece has stayed revelant for over 1000 years of combat and claim you know better about military combat than every officier, general or warlord who has followed this up to and including the united states army. No matter the technological advancements the art of war has remained a very relevant. Perhaps more so today then in the past where engagements were fought between thousands in 1 location and today where we sometimes have a platoon or squad against an entire enemy position. LOL!

In speaking of which, I don`t recall claiming that I know better. All I know is that certain people have had used different strategies that led them to success. I did say "A split of defense and offense is always good" but that`s my opinion. Where did I get it from? From World of Warcraft, which is a video game. Using the defense/offense strategy in a battleground always heightens the chance of winning the whole battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

The game only mentioned Galbadian forces, Galbadia Army and G-Army. That`s the problem.

In correct english you do not have to state Gabaldian Defense Forces every time you refer to them, if Japan's military is/was out in a warzone working with the united states they would be refered to as Japanese forces...G.D.F however is a 3 word initial and you cannot argue this it's a fact of the english language therefore Gabaldian.Defense.Forces makes the most sense it could be Gabaldian Diabolical Forces but I figure it's defense you know just because well Diabolical in there would be rather stupid an army wouldn't refer to itself as crap.

Then explain why did Xu mention G-Army in the game? Unless, of course, it could be a translation error, however, what comes out of the game still remain evidenced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Not exactly, as I've said above, this thread was to show why Ultimecia chose to rule Galbadia in the first place.

Oh this is actually what the topic of this is, you had me convinced that it was musing over why Gabaldia chose to show off their banner all the time because enough said thats what the first post looks like and it's not like there was any text formatting to point out otherwise.

It`s in the bottom part of my 1st post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

As for why Ultimecia picks Gabaldia out to rule over, well SeeD is the only military force in Balamb, she's unable to rule there because it's prophecised SeeD will destroy her, Timber, Dollet both are ruled by Gabaldia pretty much, Dollet remains independent but it's pretty obvious that Dollet would fail to remain sovereign should Gabaldia try properly unless SeeD intervened.

That`s incorrect. Ultimecia did not really expect any SeeD encounter when she first came to the past era [present of the game], she fully acknowledges the legendary SeeD when the Deling event occurs.

It`s obvious that if Ultimecia knew about the greatest danger of SeeD in the first place, she would have of went to kill SeeDs before they were promoted at the balamb garden but that`s not the case, because she didn`t know them until the end of the disk 1. However, it`s true that she acknowledged SeeDs from Matron`s mind before the Deling event but like I said before, it didn`t imply that Ultimecia could face the greatest danger.

Either way, Ultimecia was more capable of creating massive influences than any normal human would. She could easily take over any city.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceGlow

Esthar is the only other country in the world apart from Gabaldia which has a military of enough strength or had one at least. She may have known where Esthar was but she needed to get past their protective technology ect.

I doubt it, she could easily take it over without any problem because she`s Ultimecia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceGlow

So she takes over the biggest or second biggest millitary there is, what better way to get Esthar open again then to gear up towards a massive war which Esthar would need to get involved in to stop or even just get the Gabaldian force behind her enough to attack Esthar directly, she wanted Adel and Ellone that was all.

The reason why she wanted Ellone was because of TC, taking over the whole city would be unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

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Originally Posted by Serapy

While the hidden plot of this game has proven to be mysterious (not 100% proven correct), therefore nobody is right or wrong regardless of what they may have done. Only SquareSoft knows the answer and I doubt they will tell us because there`s no reason for them to do so.

Well you know, if you won't listen to the rest of us who have told you time and time again that your theories are blown out of proportion
and your going overboard why bother posting them here, you're admitting here that we cannot prove you right or wrong (well we can, but you won't accept it unless it comes from square).

I`m talking about in general like R=U, it cannot be 100% proved correct or incorrect. Only SquareSoft knows the answer, It`s up to you whether to believe it or not.

Anyway, your posts in this thread are based on speculation and you did provide some evidence from the game BUT not even one that could disprove my theory, therefore, you haven`t proved me wrong yet. I will accept it when someone posts evidence that disproves my theory and I already have provided evidence that covers my theories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceGlow

so why don't you just spam their e-mails with these theories I'm betting if they did reply to you they'd tell you you're wrong too is it that you're scared to admit you know most of your theories are ungrounded?

I`ve been posting a lot of theories in this forum over the years, some have disproved me wrong, and I've accepted them. Good times. Everybody makes mistakes.

I have e-mailed them before and I didn`t get any answer from them. I gave up till the moment I finally realised that there`s no reason for them to do so.

Anyway, don`t be silly, I enjoy talking about Final Fantasy VIII.
11-13-2008, 01:06 PM
Iceglow

You sure as hell dispelled Sun Tzu's art of war as wrong in your statement there. You learnt strategy from WoW god help us, please go play a strategy game if you wish to learn something about strategy from a game. Enough said WoW is designed to be balanced in real military situations the fastest one prepared and with the best speed wins. In DoW you can win a battle in 10 minutes because you can overpower them before they're ready. Just like real life.

I do believe somewhere in the game there was a reference as to why Ultimecia didn't go straight to Esthar, I will attempt to find this when I can. Enough said though Ultimecia is only really roughly as powerful as Adel was in her prime...Adel was beaten by a former Gabaldian Soldier who used a trick not a fight to win. Esthar has been ruled by sorceresses in the past and would never let one take control again. Gabaldia is a country where short memories are probably encouraged so that the enemies they're fighting now are the enemies they should be fighting not someone who helped them during the sorceress war. During the sorceress war they were severely outclassed and it looked like they would lose. Suddenly Adel disappears and Esthar too...they got a break I reckon and so would many others. Gabaldia would have been tempted to regain "former glory" by having the advantage of a sorceress having seen what Adel can do. I'll look for in game evidence to this effect though your own evidence is often none-existent in it's support of your theories.

The G.D.F. thing is getting ridiculous, look in the artwork of the game as you've clearly posted there is a G.D.F logo on the side of a piece of Gabaldian military equipment. It CANNOT be GabalDian Forces because enough said Gabal.Dian.Forces does not make the world Gabaldian. In the english language there is always a full stop between words when abbrieviating NEVER in the middle of one, heres some abbreviations: C.I.A, F.B.I, S.A.S (special air service) S.B.S (special boat service), R.B.S (royal bank of scotland), N.Y.P.D (new york police department) can you see where I am going here? Not a single one of those has a full stop splitting a word, there is a word beginning with D in that abbrieviation and it is not the second part of Gabaldia(n), The only logical choice to fill that is Defense, cold hard logic here...an army will not refer to itself as crap so Diabolical is out, Dude would be just stupid and well Distinct would be just as weird. Defense fits perfectly over any other D word I can think off.

No Square don't have to reply, perhaps if your theories weren't quite so "out there" they would send a reply of sorts as it stands they probably take a look and discard it. You are not the only fanboy out there who is just slightly obsessed with one of their games. They released an Ultimania guide for this game in their eyes thats it job done they can all go home. If what you seek is not in the ultimania guide then well, frankly as far as Square is concerned what you seek to know or think you know is wrong or doesn't exist.

I like talking about FFVIII too but you don't see me comming out with outside theories which are not grounded in the story, not supported by the game and have no possible linkage to the storyline in any way. Call me "narrow minded" but I'll tell you its a heavy dose of "realistic viewing" and I'll also say that atleast when I theorize something it's got good groundings in the game world or in human action/interaction/inaction.
11-13-2008, 02:37 PM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

You sure as hell dispelled Sun Tzu's art of war as wrong in your statement there. You learnt strategy from WoW god help us, please go play a strategy game if you wish to learn something about strategy from a game. Enough said WoW is designed to be balanced in real military situations the fastest one prepared and with the best speed wins. In DoW you can win a battle in 10 minutes because you can overpower them before they're ready. Just like real life.

Where did I mention that I dispelled Sun Tzu? It`s either because I`ve never heard of him before or it`s not relevant to my theory. Also, I do have played "strategy" games and defense/offense always work the best for me.

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I do believe somewhere in the game there was a reference as to why Ultimecia didn't go straight to Esthar, I will attempt to find this when I can.

Ellone wasn`t at Esthar, that`s why she didn`t go there.

Ultimecia began compressing time when she processed the JME in disk 4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Enough said though Ultimecia is only really roughly as powerful as Adel was in her prime...Adel was beaten by a former Gabaldian Soldier who used a trick not a fight to win.

Ultimecia and Adel are two different beings. Obviously, Ultimecia is more superior to Adel. Adel is just a sorceress, like Rinoa.

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

Esthar has been ruled by sorceresses in the past and would never let one take control again.

Ultimecia was insane, she could do anything what she wants.

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

Gabaldia would have been tempted to regain "former glory" by having the advantage of a sorceress having seen what Adel can do.

Gabaldia took control of Lunatic Pandora ...

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I'll look for in game evidence to this effect though your own evidence is often none-existent in it's support of your theories.

Evidence I've provided are from the game, but thanks anyway, I appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

The G.D.F. thing is getting ridiculous, look in the artwork of the game as you've clearly posted there is a G.D.F logo on the side of a piece of Gabaldian military equipment. [...]

Where did I mention "You are wrong"? I was simply asking you why did Xu mention G-Army in the game. Also, remember that specific characters (i.e. Quistis) in the game have mentioned Galbadian forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceGlow

No Square don't have to reply, perhaps if your theories weren't quite so "out there" they would send a reply of sorts as it stands they probably take a look and discard it.

No. They have no reason to reply because the game was created to be mysterious in a way (intentionally), if they answered us, that would spoil the game`s purpose. If this game was created to be straightforward and somehow plot holes occured, there`s a good chance that SquareEnix will make announcements regarding such errors or answers via interviews.

If you don`t believe me, then try e-mailing them by yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceGlow

You are not the only fanboy out there who is just slightly obsessed with one of their games. They released an Ultimania guide for this game in their eyes thats it job done they can all go home.

Not really, the Ultimania guide may have mentioned the sorceress`s life span but that was part of the witches` introduction, adding a bit more detail about them. Other than that, it doesn`t answer other unanswered plot questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

If what you seek is not in the ultimania guide then well, frankly as far as Square is concerned what you seek to know or think you know is wrong or doesn't exist.

Are you claiming that evidence I've provided are wrong? If not, then please be more specific next time.

Quote:

I like talking about FFVIII too but you don't see me comming out with outside theories which are not grounded in the story, not supported by the game and have no possible linkage to the storyline in any way.

Once again, I already have provided them. If you don`t agree with my speculation, then that`s your opinion.

Quote:

Call me "narrow minded" but I'll tell you its a heavy dose of "realistic viewing" and I'll also say that atleast when I theorize something it's got good groundings in the game world or in human action/interaction/inaction.

Enlighten me, then. I`d like to hear your theory as to why you think the game is straightforward.
11-13-2008, 11:13 PM
MJN SEIFER

Both Serapy and Iceglow are raising some pretty interesting points here - so far I think it can go either way, but as I said in someone else’s posts (someone who sadly hasn't been seen for a while...:() it's fun to theorize(if that's the correct word) and I'm slightly envious of these threads, as I have had a couple of theories on things (some based on what I have read at this forum and some on what I have interpreted myself) they may be wrong, they may be right, but I don't have the skill to explain them in great detail.

Anyway, this discussion between the two of you has interested me, and I have agreements for both sides in places.

I will admit I tend to put my own methods into SquareSoft though, but I am pretty sure that do intend to have people theorize(?) their games to some extent which is why they don't set things fully in stone - they never fully explained who Laguna was for example, but put hints in places - his relation to one of the main characters may actually not be what Square was trying to say (I think it was), but if it was then Square let the gamers do some of the work. However there are times when we've blatantly gotten it wrong, and designers such as Square are forced to release proof of that fact - I am sure that there is a book about FFVII that corrects various erroneous theories about that game, but I have yet to read it though.

If I was to make something (a game/film/show for example) I would put in things like this, to see if the player/viewer noticed, and what s/he interpreted by it (though I may or may not be forced to reveal it eventually like Square did) but I realize I am not Square.

I hope that wasn't too OT, and I'll probably respond properly to the debate once I've stalled it all - there wasn't enough time to do it in this thread.
11-16-2008, 10:40 AM
champagne supernova

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Enough said though Ultimecia is only really roughly as powerful as Adel was in her prime...Adel was beaten by a former Gabaldian Soldier who used a trick not a fight to win.

Ultimecia and Adel are two different beings. Obviously, Ultimecia is more superior to Adel. Adel is just a sorceress, like Rinoa.

Actually, Dr Odine was worried that if Ultimecia tried to possess Adel, Adel would win and then become all-powerful. That is why you have to attack her in the game. Seriously, it's in the script. If you want, I can find the exact line.

Anyway, I think it is logical that a nation would put its symbols on its stuff - just like Esthar does. Balamb Garden also puts its symbols everywhere. As far as I know, that symbol is not based on a real symbol, so the only power it gains is from the game.

Galbadia is definitely portrayed as evil in the game. Deling is not a nice person. It also has military strength. Because it is run by a dictator, and therefore the people do not have democratic power, if someone kills the first dictator, the people will follow the new one.

Esthar also has great military strength. However, it is a democratic nation. It also has the ability to seal a sorceresses power. There is a strong dislike for sorceresses in the nation, and they spend a substantial amount of money ensuring that Adel does not return. There is a sort of paranoia about sorceresses.

So, when Ultimecia is deciding where to send Edea, it would make logical sense for her to choose Galbadia, because Edea would be more likely to take over that country than Esthar.
11-16-2008, 11:38 AM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Actually, Dr Odine was worried that if Ultimecia tried to possess Adel, Adel would win and then become all-powerful. That is why you have to attack her in the game. Seriously, it's in the script. If you want, I can find the exact line.

That`s not the point. Under normal circumstances, Adel and Rinoa are still sorceress alikes and Ultimecia is superior to both of them. Ultimecia possessing Adel is a different story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Anyway, I think it is logical that a nation would put its symbols on its stuff - just like Esthar does. Balamb Garden also puts its symbols everywhere. As far as I know, that symbol is not based on a real symbol, so the only power it gains is from the game.

Then in general, the amount of Galbadia abusing its symbol, when compared to other forces, is not logical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Galbadia is definitely portrayed as evil in the game. Deling is not a nice person. It also has military strength. Because it is run by a dictator, and therefore the people do not have democratic power, if someone kills the first dictator, the people will follow the new one.

Hence the amount of Galbadia abusing its symbol. You will see Galbadia`s symbol much more often than other things in the game. Disregard symbols such as lion/star/black & white wings because they are subtle. However, this one is not subtle when it comes to taking things a bit too far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Esthar also has great military strength. However, it is a democratic nation. It also has the ability to seal a sorceresses power. There is a strong dislike for sorceresses in the nation, and they spend a substantial amount of money ensuring that Adel does not return. There is a sort of paranoia about sorceresses.

If that`s the case, then Esthar is ignorant for not realising the true implications of sealing a sorceress for so long.

Maybe they weren`t actually ignorant but rather followed the fate of the game (created JME for a good cause). Without Adel = no JME = zat will be impossible to face the being of actual Ultimecia.

Every time loop of the game is not always the same. One very tiny change, like the size of an atom, could ultimately affect everything. Like for example, Squall refusing to rescue Rinoa at SM due to being vastly emotional. This bit is a bit irrelevant, but quite relevant to R=U.

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

So, when Ultimecia is deciding where to send Edea, it would make logical sense for her to choose Galbadia, because Edea would be more likely to take over that country than Esthar.

Well, it would be more logical for her to take control of Esthar because they are responsible for the imprisonment of Adel. If she controlled Esthar instead, she could get to Adel easier. However, this is not the case; She used Rinoa as an alternative to get to Adel.

If Ultimecia wasn`t insane or at least have had some common sense, it`d be more logical for her to kill SeeDs before they were prompted at the BG (seems a bit likely) or taking control of Esthar (seems more likely).

In conclusion: Ultimecia looked at Galbadia and think "Oh my, that`s indeed a very bad-ass force!" and then she decided to control them, that`s all.
11-17-2008, 09:39 AM
Iceglow

Ultimecia is in the future, sure her power is pretty big I mean she created Griever and bound the other guardians of her castle to her castle. However we can assume her power is somewhat limited in the process of going back in time to take over Edea, after all if you were casting your mind back however many years it is it'd drain you pretty damn quick. I would also assume her power is limited by the power of the sorceress she is posessing in the majority of the early part of the game this is Edea. This would also leave room for a powerful sorceress to withstand and defeat Ultimecia's mental abilities, Adel is a prime example of this, as stated earlier, in the script odine is worried not about Ultimecia posessing Adel but more her attempting it and Adel instead posessing her and becoming all powerful or close to it.

Edea going up against the most elite fighting force in the world is a laughable idea. I mean sure hell she'd probably manage horriffic damage to the Garden and cause untold casualties but when her body is ultimately human a single shot can end it don't forget the idea to remove Edea and ultimately Ultimecia from history is a single shot by Irvine Kinneas. We can also say, she'd have to fight against bazookas since Selphie obviously quite enjoys the use of these weapons in the game. No body, no life, no life no power.

I also would imagine that theres some kind of price to pay if the host dies when she is posessing them, quite probably mental feedback of lethal levels (this theory stems from the Laguna dream sequences, it is game over if the party dies in the dreams and you have only the powers of laguna, ward and kiros to use apart from magic on your main party, we can say however that the stats for using magic and even hp are limited by the base stats of the 3 dream chars). If this is true then Ultimecia would want to keep Edea back out of harms way as much as possible, going up against Garden 1 v all of SeeD is suicide this is an elite merc force whose training has secretly been so they are prepared to defeat and destroy sorceresses.

In such a situation the taking over of a military super power is ideal, Esthar is far to cautious and sorceresses are probably outlawed, tears point did seem to have more than 1 of the "freezing chambers" in it it also looked like the equipment was well maintained and the technique perfected (I doubt when Laguna pushes Adel in to it he cares much if she lives or dies, probably hoped it would kill her) so going and attempting to take over Esthar is not exactly a good plan, the army there has had plenty of experience to deal with sorceresses and recognize them.

Gabaldia on the other hand is a powerful corrupt dictatorship whose rule is held in place by military law and presence, the flag of Gabaldia is "abused" as serapy puts it because the more the imagery the more the treading under of the populace. If you wish to see proof of this, take a look at pre-invasion Iraq and Saddam Hussein he had his face EVERYWHERE, on billboards, statues, sides of houses, tv...you name it his face was on it, normally infront of the iraqi flag, in effect Saddam Hussein made the flag and his face symbolic so that people would make the association automatically and permanently even now when he is dead. It is the same with Gabaldia, the state is everything, you are nothing. It is also popular for armies in a dictatorship country to be called Defense Forces, the reason being they're not doing wrong, they're protecting your interests this helps the population believe in the righteous cause of their government, outside the country however they're not reffered to as a defense force because most of the time they're probably acting aggressively.

In the end it all comes down to Ultimecia needed to keep Edea alive so she could be useful since Ultimecia has no body of her own in the past and the ones she posesses to give her any power must have sorceress powers In the first disc of the game, Edea is building her support amongst the downtrodden population of Gabaldia and it's military she then at the end of the disc siezes the reins of power and takes over. In disc 2 she uses the power she has acquired to attempt to destroy all Gardens apart from her own base of operations Gabaldia Garden. She suceedes in causing a lot of destruction to Trabia but thanks the Squall and co. escaping the prison something which she did not expect to occur Balamb Garden is saved and whats more it's activated too.

In the end of Disc 2 when the 2 gardens collide I believe that Edea's Gabaldia is searching for the Lunatic Pandora however seeing Balamb Garden appear over the horizon the G-army automatically prepares for battle and attacks.
11-18-2008, 02:48 PM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Ultimecia is in the future, sure her power is pretty big I mean she created Griever and bound the other guardians of her castle to her castle. However we can assume her power is somewhat limited in the process of going back in time to take over Edea, after all if you were casting your mind back however many years it is it'd drain you pretty damn quick.

Everything in the game have limitations but it still doesn`t change the fact that Ultimecia is the main antagonist (villain) of the game. Meaning that she`s likely to be stronger than sorceresses, otherwise, there`s no point.

According to the game, she has the ability to manifest a thing out of a person`s mind. She could have manifested a much more powerful thing, such as you name it, instead of Griever. She only manifested Griever because it`s more relevant to the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I would also assume her power is limited by the power of the sorceress she is posessing in the majority of the early part of the game this is Edea.

No. It`s all because of fate/destiny followed by the game. If Edea was stronger, then there wouldn't be any point in continuing the game. Therefore, it`s not a question of whether Ultimecia was being less or more limited as the fate/destiny path has already worked out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

This would also leave room for a powerful sorceress to withstand and defeat Ultimecia's mental abilities, Adel is a prime example of this, as stated earlier, in the script odine is worried not about Ultimecia posessing Adel but more her attempting it and Adel instead posessing her and becoming all powerful or close to it.

What Odine said (regarding the Adel`s matter) was a speculation. Predicting what will happen is not always 100% accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Edea going up against the most elite fighting force in the world is a laughable idea.

Ultimecia`s main purpose is to collect everything, not going after any fighting force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I mean sure hell she'd probably manage horriffic damage to the Garden and cause untold casualties but when her body is ultimately human a single shot can end it don't forget the idea to remove Edea and ultimately Ultimecia from history is a single shot by Irvine Kinneas. We can also say, she'd have to fight against bazookas since Selphie obviously quite enjoys the use of these weapons in the game. No body, no life, no life no power.

Um, no. Squall is a normal human and Ultimecia`s icicles totally penetrated him. Yet, he survived this attack. As I said before, this game has limitations. In other words, any incorrect mechanism of how things work in the game don`t matter because they are not relevant to its story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I also would imagine that theres some kind of price to pay if the host dies when she is posessing them, quite probably mental feedback of lethal levels (this theory stems from the Laguna dream sequences, it is game over if the party dies in the dreams and you have only the powers of laguna, ward and kiros to use apart from magic on your main party, we can say however that the stats for using magic and even hp are limited by the base stats of the 3 dream chars).

Dying in game battles have nothing to do with the story. Gameplay and story are not exactly the same thing. Every battle has the same mechanism applied; you die, game over. If what you said was the case, then SquareSoft would of have added some more events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

If this is true then Ultimecia would want to keep Edea back out of harms way as much as possible, going up against Garden 1 v all of SeeD is suicide this is an elite merc force whose training has secretly been so they are prepared to defeat and destroy sorceresses.

Ultimecia doesn`t care if Matron dies, Matron dying won`t affect Ultimecia at all and she can possess another sorceress if she wanted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

In such a situation the taking over of a military super power is ideal, Esthar is far to cautious and sorceresses are probably outlawed, tears point did seem to have more than 1 of the "freezing chambers" in it it also looked like the equipment was well maintained and the technique perfected (I doubt when Laguna pushes Adel in to it he cares much if she lives or dies, probably hoped it would kill her) so going and attempting to take over Esthar is not exactly a good plan, the army there has had plenty of experience to deal with sorceresses and recognize them.

Even if she took over Esthar, I don`t see how would the army take care of Ultimecia. They cannot kill her as she is from the future, there`s no way. Unless, of course, she casts TC and the army could get in her way but that doesn`t mean she will cast TC right away after taking over Esthar.

The reason why she chose to rule Galbadia was because it represented a symbol of evil and she`s evil. That does make sense because it fits the story nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Gabaldia on the other hand is a powerful corrupt dictatorship whose rule is held in place by military law and presence, the flag of Gabaldia is "abused" as serapy puts it because the more the imagery the more the treading under of the populace.

It`s common sense. Showing a symbol of Galbadia in most of places a lot more than other things. As a SeeD, you will face a lot of Galbadian soldiers. This is why Ultimecia chose them.

I don`t know why you`re still talking about this thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

If you wish to see proof of this, take a look at pre-invasion Iraq and Saddam Hussein he had his face EVERYWHERE, on billboards, statues, sides of houses, tv...you name it his face was on it, normally infront of the iraqi flag, in effect Saddam Hussein made the flag and his face symbolic so that people would make the association automatically and permanently even now when he is dead. It is the same with Gabaldia, the state is everything, you are nothing.

The point is Gabaldia was evil. That`s why Ultimecia chose them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

It is also popular for armies in a dictatorship country to be called Defense Forces, the reason being they're not doing wrong, they're protecting your interests this helps the population believe in the righteous cause of their government, outside the country however they're not reffered to as a defense force because most of the time they're probably acting aggressively.

What they did deemed wrong from a player`s standpoint.

There`s nothing in the game that states Galbadia Defense Forces, though. The only short word for Galbadia stated was G-Army. The reason why it was G.D.F was not to confuse G.F (Guardian Forces).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

In the end it all comes down to Ultimecia needed to keep Edea alive so she could be useful since Ultimecia has no body of her own in the past and the ones she posesses to give her any power must have sorceress powers.

Not really, there are alternatives that Ultimecia can possess at the time. For example, Rinoa, Adel ... and there could be more. When Rinoa gained her powers, Ultimecia stopped possessing Matron soon after.
11-19-2008, 01:20 AM
Iceglow

I'm exasperated, seriously! I have explained and offered different perspectives on this to you how many times now? You REFUSE to see anything other than you want to see so why then do you post it on a DISCUSSION board if you will pointedly ignore and call anyone who disagrees with your deeply flawed and ignorant perceptions wrong? I am willing to be proven wrong by you or by square on my perceptions of FFVIII, however I believe even if Square sent the actual team behind FFVIII with translators to you and they told you face to face your perceptions and theories are worthless and full of it you would insist they are wrong! You asked why Ultimecia took over Gabaldia, you asked why Gabaldia's flag is everywhere when really you don't want answers you want to project your answers on to us regardless of the fact that you've been proven illogical and wrong in so many ways in the past. Seriously, I'm gonna leave you with your delusions. Let me say one thing however, before theorizing about FFVIII and it's mythical relativity to greek myths ect go study modern history, learn about dictatorships and things like that, consider your own questions you have asked here because if you had an inkling of common sense you'd know I've stated many true facts as to the reasons why I said what I said.
11-19-2008, 05:02 AM
Wolf Kanno

Galbadia is not "evil". They are just a country controlled by a corrupt government. I'm with Iceglow with this. She took over Galbadia cause they were the easiest to manipulate and had the next strongest military that would allow her to attack Esthar and in the confusion; release Adel from her prison. Hell, due to Galbadia's strong connections to the Garden, she was even able to take control of a third of SeeD's military power and destroy them from within.

Ultemacia is not "evil" either. Paranoid? Yes. Driven by fear? Definetly. Crazy? Hell yes! Evil? No. Squall makes a striking statement before the assassination attempt, where he explains that there is no "Good" or "Evil" in war or conflict. Its just the clashing of ideals and self interest. How can such a thought provoking statement be made and have the plot twist around and say, "Hey, Ultemacia is evil. Like Ex-Death and Kefka evil." She was only defending herself from an enemy that she created.

She hardly did anything for malicious pleasure. It was all based on fear and paranoia that drove her mad. She attacked SeeD cause they were her enemy. She manipulated Galbadia so she could get to Adel and fulfill her desire for "Time Compression". She controlled Eda and Rinoa solely out of ambition to fulfill said goal. Yes, many innocents died and lives were destroyed but there were nothing more than "casualties" on her road to her ultimate goal. She fought out of fear, not cause she just wanted to kill and ruin people's lives for the hell of it. Even her goal of god-hood was motivated more out of fear than some narcissistic pleasure. I don't classify her as truly "evil" I'm afraid. Especially against the likes of the Palamecian Emperor and Ex-Death.
11-19-2008, 09:47 AM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I'm exasperated, seriously! I have explained and offered different perspectives on this to you how many times now?

Irrelevant, because this thread like I said does not focus on Galbadia entirely, but rather the relationship of Galbadia and Ultimecia. You kept talking about the former.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

You REFUSE to see anything other than you want to see so why then do you post it on a DISCUSSION board

Because most of your posts are about comparing from real life to FF8, that`s an opinion I can disagree with. They are not facts. Plus your speculation on things from the game don`t seem right, for example: Squall survived the attack in FMV = therefore if Edea gets attacked without that magic shell, she will be likely to survive too. Ultimecia having alternatives to choose, she`s not affected if Matron dies, etc etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

if you will pointedly ignore and call anyone who disagrees with your deeply flawed and ignorant perceptions wrong?

I`ve agreed with certain people on this forums over the years, we've had ups and downs. Me pointing at everybody claiming they are all wrong is not logical.

While I don`t agree with most of your posts, simply because the connection of your speculation and the facts from the game don`t match. I`ve explained this in most of my posts when replying to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I am willing to be proven wrong by you or by square on my perceptions of FFVIII,

Now this is a good time to develop your theory as why you think the game is straightforward. I`ve asked you to do so about 3 times now and you still haven`t done it. It merely was to show that the game is actually not straightforward. When a game has been proven straightforward, the connections of speculations and facts from the game cannot be proven either. Only SquareEnix knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

however I believe even if Square sent the actual team behind FFVIII with translators to you and they told you face to face your perceptions and theories are worthless and full of it you would insist they are wrong!

That`s just illogical. If Square has made corrections, then I'll be delighted to hear them. I admire SquareSoft for making a fantastic game like FF8. Square has made FF8, so claiming that they are wrong doesn`t make sense. The reason why I made theories was because that the game lacked something (i.e. lack of information about Ultimecia) and the fact that it`s not straightforward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

You asked why Ultimecia took over Gabaldia

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

you asked why Gabaldia's flag is everywhere

I never mentioned that question in my first post. I merely added the pictures of the symbol from the FMVs and some game shots because they are not easy to find in run-time (playing on TV without pause/rewind/forward/etc functions). I showed the pictures mainly to show people what they haven`t seen before, probably not all people but definitely some.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

when really you don't want answers you want to project your answers on to us regardless of the fact that you've been proven illogical and wrong in so many ways in the past.

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Seriously, I'm gonna leave you with your delusions. Let me say one thing however, before theorizing about FFVIII and it's mythical relativity to greek myths ect go study modern history, learn about dictatorships and things like that, consider your own questions you have asked here because if you had an inkling of common sense you'd know I've stated many true facts as to the reasons why I said what I said.

I already have done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Galbadia is not "evil". They are just a country controlled by a corrupt government. I'm with Iceglow with this. She took over Galbadia cause they were the easiest to manipulate and had the next strongest military that would allow her to attack Esthar and in the confusion; release Adel from her prison. Hell, due to Galbadia's strong connections to the Garden, she was even able to take control of a third of SeeD's military power and destroy them from within.

If Galbadia and Ultimecia did exist in real life, some people will say they are evil. I`m talking about from a player`s standpoint. As you may already be aware, my English is not that good (my 3rd language), so my mistake if I didn`t use the correct word. The reason why I used the 'Evil' word, according to my Cambridge Dictionary, it states:

"immoral, cruel, or very unpleasant."

Was Ultimecia some sort of immoral? I think so, because her wrong doings were not within FF8 society`s standards of acceptable, honest and moral behaviour; morally wrong.

Was she cruel and unpleasant? Yes. She has killed people and has caused pain and damage towards people and buildings. Her dialogues seemed unpleasant too.

Of course, Ultimecia is more evil than Galbadia.

Either way, she`s evil or bad, whatever the general term is.

This game shouldn`t be over-complicated. Squall is on the "good" side, including Rinoa and others.
Ultimecia is on the "bad" side, hence ... it`s obvious that she chose Galbadia. That`s all.

And I still believe that it doesn`t matter if Galbadia is the easiest thing to manipulate because Ultimecia is a powerful being, she can simply manipulate anything. She`s from the future, nobody could kill her under normal circumstances, there`s no reason for her to become paranoid. She was very angry when ever went wrong.
11-20-2008, 02:21 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Galbadia is not "evil". They are just a country controlled by a corrupt government. I'm with Iceglow with this. She took over Galbadia cause they were the easiest to manipulate and had the next strongest military that would allow her to attack Esthar and in the confusion; release Adel from her prison. Hell, due to Galbadia's strong connections to the Garden, she was even able to take control of a third of SeeD's military power and destroy them from within.

If Galbadia and Ultimecia did exist in real life, some people will say they are evil. I`m talking about from a player`s standpoint. As you may already be aware, my English is not that good (my 3rd language), so my mistake if I didn`t use the correct word. The reason why I used the 'Evil' word, according to my Cambridge Dictionary, it states:

"immoral, cruel, or very unpleasant."

Was Ultimecia some sort of immoral? I think so, because her wrong doings were not within FF8 society`s standards of acceptable, honest and moral behaviour; morally wrong.

Was she cruel and unpleasant? Yes. She has killed people and has caused pain and damage towards people and buildings. Her dialogues seemed unpleasant too.

Of course, Ultimecia is more evil than Galbadia.

Either way, she`s evil or bad, whatever the general term is.

This game shouldn`t be over-complicated. Squall is on the "good" side, including Rinoa and others.
Ultimecia is on the "bad" side, hence ... it`s obvious that she chose Galbadia. That`s all.

And I still believe that it doesn`t matter if Galbadia is the easiest thing to manipulate because Ultimecia is a powerful being, she can simply manipulate anything. She`s from the future, nobody could kill her under normal circumstances, there`s no reason for her to become paranoid. She was very angry when ever went wrong.

Its not the terminology, its more about the philosophy and logic behind it. Who is more evil? A professional thief or a murderer? From a terminology perspective, they are both evil and logically should be judged equally yet most law doesn't, cause "evil" is based more on personal interpretations. While I will agree that Ultemacia is more in the wrong than Galbadia, I do not see Galbadia as evil cause even if their dictator was in fact a caring individual who helped his people, the way his country was set up allowed Ultemacia a better chance to fulfill her goals. They were the strongest military in the world behind the anti-sorceress military powers of SeeD and Esthar. They were also in political turmoil and it was rather easy to jump into a position of power.

Ultemacia is actually quite limited in her power and her options are more scarce than you think cause she cannot just swap her mind into anyone. The Junction Machine Ellone works the same way as Ellone's power (in fact, its even hinted to be even more limited) and thus Ultemacia can only transfer her consciousness to someone who has a connection with her (i.e. her powers). If she was as powerful as you say she is, then controlling Galbadia was a moot endeavor and she simply could have used her powers to set Adel free, possess her and start Time Compression.

Instead she goes to the trouble of amassing an army, convincing Seifer to become her bodyguard, use Galbadia's influence to incite a civil war amongst SeeD, transfer Edea's (and her own) powers to Rinoa in order to protect her link to the past from Squall and SeeD, used Galbadia to invade Esthar and even manipulated Rinoa so she could free Adel and eventually possess her.

Her powers and influence seem rather limited imo. Another point to remember before you bring up the Griever incedent is that Ultemacia had already initiated Time Compression by this point and thus it could be argued her powers we're growing from it as the battle went on and were in fact not natural.
11-20-2008, 12:42 PM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Its not the terminology, its more about the philosophy and logic behind it. Who is more evil? A professional thief or a murderer? From a terminology perspective, they are both evil and logically should be judged equally yet most law doesn't, cause "evil" is based more on personal interpretations. While I will agree that Ultemacia is more in the wrong than Galbadia, I do not see Galbadia as evil cause even if their dictator was in fact a caring individual who helped his people, the way his country was set up allowed Ultemacia a better chance to fulfill her goals. They were the strongest military in the world behind the anti-sorceress military powers of SeeD and Esthar. They were also in political turmoil and it was rather easy to jump into a position of power.

Oh I see, thanks!

Of course, everything in the game is limited. Including Ultimecia, but in my opinion she`s just stronger.

Ultimecia convincing Seifer to join her side ... He wanted to join her too.

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