Most complicated story?

Hey all, here's another poll, and again it's born of my lack of desire to study.

After reading the thread about best main villain exits and hearing about all these crazy things happening with time travel, and Garland, and "And..." I felt like making this topic.

Which Final Fantasy, in your opinion, has the most complex story? Or, more specifically, which FF leads you to go "What the eff just happened?!" most often? I realize this means two different things. :P You can clarify in your posts. I imagine I'll have some persnickety people saying, for example: "FF Tactics is the most complex, but understandable...FFVIII is like: AUGHHHH."

I included a few of the spinoffs as well...basically as many as I could remember/be arsed to put in (yes, I fake slang).

>>> Anything that involves time traveling, that mess up everything.

ff8 got me thinking.

VII. And that's not a good thing.

Though, I haven't played Tactics enough to judge its story; some people say it's even more complicated (in a good way, though).

Final Fantasy Tactics, it was a true political story in which you had to pay attention and remember who is who. The complexity of its character development and storytelling still makes it one of the greatest FF games in the series. Besides, when your game features a bibliography that keeps you up to date on the plot and characters, you know its complex. :cool:

Id say FFVIII due to the time thing making it hard to figure out left from right.


Although, FFVIII's complicated story compared to Chrono Cross on the otherhand....

I feel time travel only makes things complicated when you start thinking about the process in itself. When you take Chrono Trigger and VIII for what they are and don't think about the physics behind it then you will see the stories are fairly simple. Its when you get people who write those 100 page essays on how time travel works in VIII and how its actual linear and not cyclical while also assuming the role that parallel worlds created by split off times affect the greater scheme of things and ultimately show that a few ambiguous notions prove once and for all without a doubt that R=U. :rolleyes2

Wait, Rinoa isn't Ultimecia?

:bgl:

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Originally Posted by hhr1dluv

Wait, Rinoa isn't Ultimecia?

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I'll have to go with Kanno for this thread. Just including time-travel doesn't make VIII's story overly complex. Tactics's is a lot more complicated, though I haven't beaten the game yet.

FF Tactics takes the cake. As for most explained history of the world, it'll probably be FFX, or XI.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I feel time travel only makes things complicated when you start thinking about the process in itself. When you take Chrono Trigger and VIII for what they are and don't think about the physics behind it then you will see the stories are fairly simple. Its when you get people who write those 100 page essays on how time travel works in VIII and how its actual linear and not cyclical while also assuming the role that parallel worlds created by split off times affect the greater scheme of things and ultimately show that a few ambiguous notions prove once and for all without a doubt that R=U. :rolleyes2

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Try to replicate the VIII's story by writing an essay. Don't mention anything about the physics involved, but just mention hardcopy information given by the game's events and you'll know that it will turn out not making any sense in the end. That's because the game is meant to be mysterious as intended by SquareSoft.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I feel time travel only makes things complicated when you start thinking about the process in itself. When you take Chrono Trigger and VIII for what they are and don't think about the physics behind it then you will see the stories are fairly simple. Its when you get people who write those 100 page essays on how time travel works in VIII and how its actual linear and not cyclical while also assuming the role that parallel worlds created by split off times affect the greater scheme of things and ultimately show that a few ambiguous notions prove once and for all without a doubt that R=U. :rolleyes2

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Try to replicate the VIII's story by writing an essay. Don't mention anything about the physics involved, but just mention hardcopy information given by the game's events and you'll know that it will turn out not making any sense in the end. That's because the game is meant to be mysterious as intended by SquareSoft.

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Its not that terribly hard to follow and it does make sense except for plot elements that are introduced and then subsequently dropped for no reason, by that I mean the GF memory stealing and Ultemacia's motive for Time Compression. I don't think there's anything mysterious about VIII just some sloppy writing and an addicting card game. ;)

Ultimecia wasn`t exactly not one of the plot`s elements, though. :p If you have managed to write about the backgrounds of the characters (Squall, Rinoa, Zell, etc.) then I'm sure it would be also logical to write about the background of Ultimecia because she was the main villain. However, that's a problem, since her background wasn`t not fully detailed. Sloppy writing? Well, it hardly takes countless hours to add dialogues such as "I'm Ultimecia, my goal is [sic]", "Why did I come here? [sic]", etc. which should be quite enough to complete her background information.

I don't play the card game, what a shame.. :rolleyes2

I forget to mention that I voted for FF X-2.

FFVIII. I just... I still don't think I understand all of the loose threads, even after all of the times I played it. xD Once you get to Disc 3, it just becomes a massive head puzzle.

There's alot of different ways to define compelexity in a story, I don't think "WTF just happened" should be one of them.

FFTactics probably had the most amount of threads, and IMO they all get tied up nicely. A chance meeting with a character in Ch. 2 could lead to him being an important character in chapter 3, having a sentimental scene in the ending, and a tragic end in the epilogue. There are many layers of exploitation to unravel, to where everyone previous seems to be not so bad (with few exceptions, there are evil characters in Matsuno stories). It might take away a bit that the ultimate user, main exploiter/bad guy when all said is done is the cliche RPG scapegoat - the lord of darkness/whatever you want to call it. It still remains one of the most complex stories in the FF Universe.

If you want to talk plot devices, I would give it to FFVII. Love triangles, en media rey storytelling, unreliable protagonist/narrator, technological symbolism which leads to societal metaphors, the way things are placed side by side to be compared, this was a big game from a literary standpoint. Add in the countless themes that are in the game, some of which simply had to be toned down for later installments due to the popular success of the franchise, and you got one of the most complex stories in the series.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Ultimecia wasn`t exactly not one of the plot`s elements, though. :p If you have managed to write about the backgrounds of the characters (Squall, Rinoa, Zell, etc.) then I'm sure it would be also logical to write about the background of Ultimecia because she was the main villain. However, that's a problem, since her background wasn`t not fully detailed. Sloppy writing? Well, it hardly takes countless hours to add dialogues such as "I'm Ultimecia, my goal is [sic]", "Why did I come here? [sic]", etc. which should be quite enough to complete her background information.

I don't play the card game, what a shame.. :rolleyes2

I forget to mention that I voted for FF X-2.

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Well, with the exception of Squall Laguna and Rinoa, their is little to say about the other characters, they appear, fulfill a niche character in the party and never grow again until the orphanage plot twist in which they once again never grow as characters. So once again I feel I'm in the right when I say there isn't much to think about. Their great characters just paper thin.

As for Ultemacia, she is a major plot element cause she is indirectly the cause of everything. Time Compression is a major factor in the story its weakly explained but we're allowed enough info to gleam from it that it makes Ultemacia a goddess. Yet the game never explains why she would need such power, nor how she came to the conclusion that Time Compression is the best way to do it?

It doesn't seem she needs power since she rules her timeline. Looking back at her dialogue as Edea and Rinoa, it doesn't even seem like she fears SeeD just hates them. For all we know, she could have just decided her power meant she should become as powerful as the original goddess who gave birth to the Sorceress'. The lack of clarity makes her rather disappointing. Its no wonder that many FF fans place her in the same camp as Cloud of Darkness, Zemus, and Necron.

The games use of time travel is not hard to figure out:

Ultemacia uses time travel to send her consciousness back in time so she can manipulate events and get a hold of Adel so she can use her powers to initiate Time Compression for whatever reason...

Ellone uses time travel to try and change the past for her and Laguna but ultimately fails and realizes her meddling only made the past into reality.

Squall and co. use time travel during Time Compression to travel to the future and kick Ultemacia's ass.

Ultemacia uses time travel to go into the past to relinquish her powers so she may finally die in peace. She gives them to Edea and much like Ellone, sets up the conditions that will allow her pre-dead self to travel back in time and and try to get Adel and create Time Compression.

In four blurbs I've explained all of the time traveling involved in VIII's plot. As well as most of the plot.

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Bolivar... You think I read too much into things? :p Course we've done that debate too many times by now. ;)

There are some subtlety in VIII. The Laguna and Julia romance which never got started; Cid's love for a wife that turned evil; Quistis (shame in every single way); even the son you reunite with his mother in Fisherman's Horizon. There is also hints of broken families - all of the characters seemed to dislike their parents, except for Zell. However, I will agree that VIII is more convuluted than complicated.

I don't really know how to define complicated in this sense. I think a complicated story is one where not everything is clearly defined, black & white. In that regard, I think VII is probably the most complicated. Yes, there were some serious gaffes with the translation of the script which makes it lose its polish, but some of the themes are amazing. When you bomb the buildings with AVALANCHE, there is a sense of moral duality going on, especially as the game progresses. Yes, Shinra is a big evil company, but is the killing of innocents for the greater good justifiable?

The love triangle is interesting. But the examination of self by Cloud is more interesting. It is almost an exaggarated example of how a weak personality, someone who wants to be great but isn't, can be dominated by a stronger personality & try to adopt those traits. Sephiroth is also not morally reprehensible at first (before he becomes a power-hungry git). Here was a great soldier, who had no past, no mother, no history. And then he suddenly finds out where he comes from - surely that would make anyone angry. I could go on and on with some of the things in VII, but I'll finish off with one thing.

The whole use of Mako to kill the planet is a wonderful analogy of what is going on here at the moment. And this game came out a long time before global warming hit the mainstream media. Now all we focus on is big business damaging our non-renewable resources - and VII bought up many of these issues before they came up. That's why it could be one of my favourite stories.

As a side question, how many of you are usually able to piece together all the plot threads just by playing the game? I usually beat the game, and then look up a synopsis to better understand everything. But then, maybe if I had more time for replays, I wouldn't have to look anything up.

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Originally Posted by hhr1dluv

As a side question, how many of you are usually able to piece together all the plot threads just by playing the game? I usually beat the game, and then look up a synopsis to better understand everything. But then, maybe if I had more time for replays, I wouldn't have to look anything up.

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I generally understand most things the first time I play through (even in VIII). But if you want to try understand everything, you have to replay it.

Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy Tactics have an underlying political story aside from the overlying character story. I think that this quality gives both games a more complicated story over the other games in the series.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by hhr1dluv

As a side question, how many of you are usually able to piece together all the plot threads just by playing the game? I usually beat the game, and then look up a synopsis to better understand everything. But then, maybe if I had more time for replays, I wouldn't have to look anything up.

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I generally understand most things the first time I play through (even in VIII). But if you want to try understand everything, you have to replay it.

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Same here. I think Tactics and Xenogears are the only games I've played where further playthroughs really helped solidify concepts in the plot. Course those games are pretty much books in comparison to any game that came before them in terms of information and depth.

Its too wishy washy a question m'afraid. :p

I don't really know, but FFVII, VIII and Tactics are all contenders. Although as some have said, complexity aint necessarily a good thing. Then again, FFIX has greater philosophical complexity imo.

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

Its too wishy washy a question m'afraid. :p

I don't really know, but FFVII, VIII and Tactics are all contenders. Although as some have said, complexity aint necessarily a good thing. Then again, FFIX has greater philosophical complexity imo.

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I'll agree with you on that. :cool:

Kingdom Hearts 2.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Acula

Kingdom Hearts 2.

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Lol! How so?