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This made me wonder. If Brokeback Mountain was about two attractive homosexual girls rather than two attractive homosexual guys, what would the reaction have been? Would it still have been nominated for an Oscar? Would people still be in an uproar if it didn't beat Crash?
Laura Mulvey would have loved that shiet.
Are they furries?
They are demon girls.
There is a topic for discussion. That's just the inspiration! :mad2:
They are hot though.
Female cowboys? Nah.
Well, female somethings.
I remember seeing a porn film in the rental store called Bareback Mountain, it was actually right next to Brokeback Mountain on the shelf.
Well I mean a serious flick. >=( You people are so hard to work with! I should have posted this in EoEO. I should make a thread in EoEO about how nobody takes my threads seriously. And then cry. Why isn't it called EmoEO anyway?
My answer was serious. A movie about lesbian cowboys wouldn't go over so well.
I don't think a female version of brokeback would work in general because we live in a patriarchal society and also male homosexuality is more hip than female homosexuality.
It would still sound like unappealing garbage that I wouldn't really want to watch, but at least it would be unappealing garbage balanced out by lesbians and tits.
Yeah, everyone would just think it would be gratituous exploitation and not bother seeing the film. Or see it, but have different expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
I respectfully disagree! :Eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
You disagree that we live in a patriarchal society or that male homosexuality is more hip? By more hip I mean it gets talked about more.
This. Female homosexuality is typically viewed as more erotic than male homosexuality. By focusing on a male relationship it removes the erotic elements and allows a deeper focus on the people and the relationship itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrumpleberry
I was disagreeing with the latter, but this is because what I thought you meant be "hip" was not what you meant by "hip".Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
By "hip", I thought you meant reactions or views; which most often I notice girlxgirl: :beer:, boyxboy: :nonono:.
Yeah, but if you talk to girls a lot of time time girlxgirl = EWWWWWW boyxboy = awwww they're so cute <3<3<3
Unfortunately, some people get intimidated by teh gay and worried that they'll be raped by all gay people of their own gender or some :skull::skull::skull::skull:.
There's also the lack of men going around claiming that we're just being exploited for gratuitious gay sex scenes. Most likely because 1) guys don't really care and in many cases actually would like this to happen and 2) I imagine the number of girls that would get off to gay men is far fewer than the opposite. :p
In my experience, that's not necessarily true. Actually according to an article I read in the New York Times Magazine a couple of weeks ago, females can get aroused by almost anything with sexual intimations, regardless of whether the gender they prefer is even involved. Though of course, just because they're aroused doesn't mean they'll act on it, or even admit it :monster:Quote:
I imagine the number of girls that would get off to gay men is far fewer than the opposite.
Yeah... I'm not entirely sure that is true in the slightest way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Men tend to prefer visual stimulation while females tend to prefer emotional/sensational simulation. i.e. Dudes get pumped by porn and dudettes get pumped by a massage and scented candles.
Most girls will get pumped by porn but won't admit it or find the idea to "gross" to even watch it to begin with. Girls are just as visually stimulated as men are, if not more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
The major strength of films like Brokeback Mountain and more recently Milk, come from the tragedy and inherent struggles and brutality that exist in those stories. I mean god, in both films you have people killed over their sexual orientation. It's shocking, it's tragic, it makes for amaaazing storytelling.
The genius of Brokeback Mountain existed in the tension of the storytelling. It was a constant push and pull. Like moments of the film where you just sink into the beauty and the bliss of the situation and then suddenly you're pulled out of it and there's this tense uneasy feel where the characters and by extension, the audience are bound by social constraints. The two words to describe Brokeback Mountain are freedom and suffocation.
Look at Harvey Milk's story. The first openly gay man to be elected into public office. And what happens? Death threats and eventually murder at the hands of a fellow politician.
A lot of the stories you hear in the news about brutal violence against homosexuals are committed against homosexual males rather than females. In general I do believe people are less... shocked by girlxgirl action than boyxboy action. That being said, there have been several Oscar nominated roles and films that feature lesbians. The Hours comes to mind. That was a great great film.
If Ang Lee had gotten his hands on a story as compelling as Brokeback Mountain (sad to say, but death really is compelling) and it featured lesbians rather than gays, then yeah, I do think it would have been an award winning film. Ang Lee is pretty genius.
It's true that we live in a patriarchal society. I do also think that male homosexuality is a bit more socially acceptable than female homesexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyYeah... I'm not entirely sure that is true in the slightest way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
I reckon it would have sold better; I never watched Brokeback mountain as guy on guy doesn't interest me and it's well known that men love a bit of girl on girl.
Ang Lee could film someone reading the phone book for two hours and have a good chance of making a decent film out of it, he's that good a director (OK, even he couldn't save Hulk though).
Would it have been so much a success? It would have been a different film so hard to say. I still think the quality would have been there anyway.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. For my own part I've not encountered prejudice towards either since I left school, but it really does seem - from my own experience at least - that female homosexuality is more accepted than male. Males might be "Hur hur you just need a REAL man :jokey:" towards lesbians, but in Western culture it very rarely goes beyond that (Again, as far as I've seen), whereas towards male homosexuality it goes, or at least used to go until very recently, right through to overt hatred, prejudice, and the occasional act of violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldy
Of course, most societies are currently in a state of flux rapid enough to change mores and norms repeatedly within a person's lifetime. It's hard to guage what is what because in a few year's time, things are likely to be different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Mully and Hannah: The Ultimate TeamQuote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
The gay boys are more controversial than the lesbos. Brokeback Mountain was so praised because it tackled something controversial. If it was about girls, it would be less controversial, and therefore, less praised. Simple math.
tits + tits = hooray
wang + wang = deep*
*haha, deep wang
FALSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
Female homosexuality is rejected in a different way than male homosexuality is. My best friend is in a lesbian relationship, and they are constantly told by straight men that they are going to be "smurfed straight." That's threatening rape, and I'd consider threats of violence to be violent themselves. Since we live in patriarchal societies, lesbians are viewed merely as silly, confused girls who don't know what they want - and obviously men know what's best for them. Lesbians are often targets of physical violence, though, too (mostly rape); two lesbian teenagers from a highschool in my city got pistol whipped just a year and a half ago because they were holding hands outside a movie theater. And even when no actual violence happens, men telling lesbians that "they just need a REAL man" is still as insulting and ridiculous as any male targeted homphobia.
The only reason lesbianism seems more acceptable than male homosexuality is because it is more acceptable to harass women verbally and expect them not to care in Western society >_>
I don't see how anything you've said supports your claim that female homosexuality is not more accepted than male homosexuality, Moon Rabbits. No one said it was completely accepted.
The impression I got from MILF was that the worst lesbians face is the odd comment from straight men.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Fortunately, your examples are not found everywhere in the world when it concerns treatment of lesbians. I've seen more open acceptance of lesbians than I have of gay dudes.
PS. why does everyone in this thread refer to them as homosexual men or homosexual women? lesbians and gay dudes would be just as fine
If it were about lesbian cowgirls any men who claim to watch it for the contreversy would be accused of being horny pervs. Thus it wouldnt recieve as much notice from the 'in' crowd.
Heath Ledger or just gtfo with it all.
i'd think that gay chicks would be revered as awesome rather than not awesome by most men or people in general because isn't it cool to make out with another girl???
Homosexual is a fun word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Yeah. I only get one opportunity to make a lispy sound when I say "gay dudes." :(Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuackHomosexual is a fun word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Not the impression I meant to convey, mainly by virtue of me repeatedly saying "In my experience" and the like :p I don't deny that lesbians face serious unpleasantness at times. However, I would say that much of it crosses over with the far more widespread misogyny in general, and that comments on their being homosexual is more to do with finding a button to push than being the basis of the prejudice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon RabbitsThe impression I got from MILF was that the worst lesbians face is the odd comment from straight men.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
I think the key difference overall is that Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal are/were pinned up all over the country on girl's walls. They're both seen as attractive guys by women, and we all know lots of girls find men in cowboy style clothes are considered 'hot'. If you had two girls that were pinups dressed up in attractive clothes, chances are the entire thing would be taken a lot less seriously by both hardline feminists and men (in general) alike. I know Nicole Kidman is considered attractive by a lot of people but I don't think they base that attraction on her portrayal of Virginia Woolf. It's just the way it goes, I guess. I find it has a parallels with comedians - men, attractive or not, are taken seriously... while very few attractive women succeed as comedians. I guess it's the way men are easily distracted by a woman's looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriel
This. The "OMG LESBIANS!!!" factor would mean that such a movie would be viewed as gratuitous male-oriented smut, especially coming from a male director. There're still some inherently different ways in which male and female homosexuality is treated, especially in the arts. Lesbianism has always had a stronger showing throughout history, and is more 'accepted' these days because its sexual side is a pleasing idea to most men. "I'm cool with it 'cause it's really smurfing hot". A very lopsided and misogynistic view, but that's most males for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
For my part, I found Brokeback Mountain really hard-hitting and passionate. Damn fine movie. A few parallels to Wong Kar-wai's Happy Together, which I'd thoroughly recommend to just about anyone, but considerably different in its scope and depth.Yes indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
I have this theory that the demographics of slash fiction writers comprises a large number of females writing malexmale fic. So maybe instead of looking for boy on boy porn, they just write it themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Most likely that was a gay porno involving the lack of condoms. Actually, I think I may have seen a porn video called "Bareback Mountain"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Hartman
I would wager that there is a significant amount of woman who if not sexually aroused by male homosexuality, at least carry a good interest. I mean there is a whole genre of manga, light novels and anime based around such a notion: Boy's Love. The genre is mostly fuelled by female authors creating stories about two (or three) guys who ultimately end up together. Their target audience is predominantly female. There is a separate genre that directed at gay men: bara. Also, I would agree with rubah that an overwhelming majority of slash-fiction authors are female.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Anyways, I think that in part a lesbian version of Brokeback, depending on how it was made, would be the target criticism of male objectification of women as sex objects. I'd also agree that female homosexuality is treated different from male homosexuality. As much as I would not deny what Moon Rabbits says, I still would think that lesbianism is more sociably acceptable. That is not to say that lesbians are not the target of homophobia but I believe that anyone who would commit homophobic acts of violence would most likely do so to either sex though perhaps in different ways. I would forward that the large part of society, especially heterosexual males, are more comfortable with the concept of lesbianism than gays. Then again there are most likely more powerful underlining issues at work that could be explored, such as male homosexuals would more likely be seen as a threat to a man's sexuality than a lesbian.
Very true, I believe. The most prolific slash authors are women, including one I know in real life; it's just a quirk of genre interests and sexuality that makes women drawn to gay pornfic about fictional characters...Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
If most rocket scientists are men, are all men rocket scientists?
I don't think that just because most slash writers are women, suddenly this means a large proportion of women in general would jump at the chance to see some man lovin'. I don't think slash writers make up a large proportion of women (or people) at all.
Points of Discussion:
1) Popularity of Brokeback Mountain: Well-told story? Don't know, haven't watched. Controversial subject? Definitely. Controversy enough reason to justify popularity? Possibly.
2) Popularity of Male scenes vs. Female scenes: The "adorable" nature of male love is mostly a migration from the Orient. Then again, my bet is that the concept remains the same for men liking girl-on-girl scenes. If either of the subjects partaking was considered ugly, the scene wouldn't be as "adorable" or "sexy." I don't know the extremes of male love popularity, but when it comes to girl-on-girl, guys don't usually enjoy the scene unless they know they have a shot with at least one of the girls. The girl doesn't have to be straight, just willing. If not, it's no fun.
3) Shudo (Male) vs. Lesbian (Female): I don't believe there is a greater acceptance for either. Anyone vying for greater acceptance of either is usually vying for acceptance of homosexuality altogether.
Each is discriminated against in similar and separate ways. Violence can be a common thread.
Men who openly discriminate against gay men are more often than not a part of a subconscious social regime. Whether this regime is founded on principle, religion, or fear of personal security, it's numbers remain stable.
Men who openly discriminate against lesbians are usually one of two classes. Either they're a part of the ssr (as above), or they're just dogs who don't know how to stop acting like dumbass teenagers. In the case of the latter, discrimination is usually an attempt to idolize oneself among a greater number of peers who dislike homosexuals. It's social/interpersonal security.
Other reasons include a sense of alpha-male insecurity: an attempt to prove to others one's ability to dominate. If a man is rejected by a woman, he might call her a lesbian even if she's not. Then again, he may yet approach a woman he knows is a lesbian and suggest that he can turn her straight. If he's rejected by a lesbian, a man's reactions can be far more varying.
Men (mostly of the alpha-male subgroup) tend to need to experience multple women. Some might say that men and women have different reasons for slutting around. Although there might be different reasons for this behavior the difference isn't found between the sexes. Anyway, (that was a little off-topic).
The last possible reasoning for a man to dislike lesbian relationships is the fear that all women will pair off and leave the men behind. This is probably due in part to jokes about men being stupid and unnecessary.
I state the following merely as an observation as I'm not a woman and my views are not proven as far as I know. Women tend to discriminate for separate reasons than would a man.
If a woman discriminates openly, she's likely well-grounded in personal belief whether principle or religious. Women tend to be more accepting of change because it is in their nature to be nurturing mother-figures. A woman's discrimination is usually less severe and abrupt than a man's. They mostly imply a lack of understanding or age, but even this behavior doesn't supercede their desire to support.
Men and women who discriminate openly are rarely found to be of different orientation themselves.