Thoughts on this?
EDIT: ugh. Obviously I meant Tidus in option one. Sorry.
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Thoughts on this?
EDIT: ugh. Obviously I meant Tidus in option one. Sorry.
Eh, Seymour didn't really have enough of a connection to Tidus. Maybe if Yuna or Jecht were the hero. If it wasn't Jecht, I'd definitely wanna see him go against Shuyin.
Jecht is technically Sin... So I feel it still works since Tidus' spent most of X trying to defeat Sin.
These two have more of a connection really, that's why I feel he was chosen. Besides, Seymour is a lame villain and the Villains had enough mage characters.
Technically, Cecil should be fighting Zemus/Zeromus but Golbez was chosen instead because of their antagonistic relationship.
It's not just about who's the last villain. Yu-Yevon would be the last villain of X, but no one would want to play as him. They chose heroes and villains who had both connections, and actual personality. Which is why Seymour is never even considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And Jecht would've made a better choice than Shuyin, definitely. For one thing, we don't need two characters who fight the same way. Also, after 1000 years as a phantasm, Shuyin had sort of lost most of the personality he may originally had, and had replaced it all with simple hatred for everything, while Jecht, though he had become a psychotic killing machine, still had a lot of his feelings left.
In my opinion, Seymour would have been a better choice for Dissidia Final Fantasy if Yuna was chosen as the hero for Final Fantasy X.
But FFX is "My Story..." says Tidus.;)
I would never even consider Shuyin since he is one of the lamest villains in the series. It would be like asking why Cloud isn't fighting Genesis since he's another big villain in FFVII.
Yet, not all the heroes face people they have true antagonistic relations with. Tbh, the Onion Knight should be facing Xande since CoD doesn't even appear until he's dead. From a story perspective though, its a better match up since the Warriors of Light came to be in order to stop CoD. Tidus' major conflict in X was battling his father who had become Sin and lets face it, their relationship is truly antagonistic towards each other. I feel it works in the same way that Cecil and WoL don't square off with their exact final bosses. They chose the villains that had the most significance to the heroes. Seymour was just a nusance to Tidus, he's more of a villian to Yuna, Rikku, and Kimarhi. Besides, we don't need another mage on the Chaos side, even if he is a zombie mage :p
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I am actually really looking forward to seeing Jecht in this, for precisely these reasons. Tidus and Jecht have a great antagonistic relationship, while still having the father/son affection. It should make for a good story.Quote:
Yet, not all the heroes face people they have true antagonistic relations with. Tbh, the Onion Knight should be facing Xande since CoD doesn't even appear until he's dead. From a story perspective though, its a better match up since the Warriors of Light came to be in order to stop CoD. Tidus' major conflict in X was battling his father who had become Sin and lets face it, their relationship is truly antagonistic towards each other. I feel it works in the same way that Cecil and WoL don't square off with their exact final bosses. They chose the villains that had the most significance to the heroes. Seymour was just a nusance to Tidus, he's more of a villian to Yuna, Rikku, and Kimarhi. Besides, we don't need another mage on the Chaos side, even if he is a zombie mage :p
Especially compared to the guy with stupid hair and no personality.
Besides story, I think some of the characters were chosen to bring variety to fighters. Cloud of Darkness was possibly chosen because lack of female characters or at least it helped her being in the game.
Good fighting games one of important aspect is that its characters are each unique. Story wise and gameplay wise I think Jecht was perfect choiche. Tidus was terrible choiche but thats because I donīt like the character.
Simple psychotic killing machine? Tha tonly describes 95% of FF's villains...and they don't have actual reasons for it like Shuyin does. They just want to take over and/or destroy the worldQuote:
And Jecht would've made a better choice than Shuyin, definitely. For one thing, we don't need two characters who fight the same way. Also, after 1000 years as a phantasm, Shuyin had sort of lost most of the personality he may originally had, and had replaced it all with simple hatred for everything, while Jecht, though he had become a psychotic killing machine, still had a lot of his feelings left.
(("OF COURSE!"))
And I dunno. I guess you can just forget X's ending where Tidus and Jecht share a tearful reunion and then Tidus giving his father a happy friendly handslap as he leaves for the Farplane. just forget that and say they don't like each other and have them fight. Makes sense.....
I didn't use the word "simple" to describe Jecht, I used it to describe Shuyin. Jecht still had emotions. He still cared for Spira...and his son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Shuyin was the simple one. He had no real motivation, no personality, no character. I don't blame him for that. He was a shade, an empty husk of rage and hatred that had degraded into mindlessness over the course of a thousand years. But it makes him rather boring if you want any character development. And it still doesn't address the issue of having two characters with the exact same moveset.
Oh, and your last paragraph is correct if you think of things that simple. Hero on one side, villain on the other, and they fight. But there is a lot of character development in this game, even though it is a fighting game, and Jecht's character is not just that of a simple villain. Even though he counts as a fighter for Chaos, his feelings for Tidus still shine through, and are integral to the story of Tidus's section of the game. Kefka even claims he is a fighter for Cosmos at one point. That is why Jecht is the perfect villain from this game. He has a close relationship with Tidus. And the relationship is antagonistic. Tidus has hated Jecht for years. But they still love each other and that still shows. It's a great relationship that is being brought out perfectly in Dissidia.
I liked X-2, but Jecht is the best choice of villain from either game given the way Dissidia is being written and designed.
Shuyin's motivation was the world is disgusting and needed to be cleansed. With the world gone he too would cease to be. So his motive was he hated everything and his objective was annihilation of everything, including himself.
And you don't need a personality to be iN Dissidia. Jus tlook at Cloud of daDarkness. And Shuyin had worlds of personality compared to the pre-S Generation FF villains who were generally cardobard cutout cliches with no motivation beyond I R EVIL".
As for character development...did Ultimecia grow in Dissidia or something? Does she start out one way and end up another
I'm with Skyblade in that I feel Shuyin is a pretty two dimensional villain and I object to villains from the early titles being referred to as simple "I r evil" types as they generally have more depth than the heroes they face.
There is a bit of character development in Dissidia, most of the heroes face issues very close to their normal stories except without some of the plot revelations. Cecil, WoL, and OK being the only major exceptions. Ultemacia seems to play a larger role than I would have thought, but Jecht definetly has more to do than someone like Shuyin or Seymour could have brought to the story.
There actually is a bit of plot and to be honest, the villains are as usual; more interesting than the heroes cause they have more interesting group dynamics than the heroes. I think characters like Xande, Zeromus, and Seymour are dropped because their stories are very rooted in their own worlds and most don't have the real connection to their games main characters as people would think.
Well perhaps I missed Kefka's and Ex-Death's' amazing depth then. What was their motivation? Insane and just plain evil? Astounding.
Of course shallowness is not just in the older games. That's my bad. Ultimecia was a paper thin villain who's best motivation, never directly stated but just inferred from her dialogue throughoug the game, is that she hates SeeDs and persecution of sorceresses.
That could easily describe Shuyin as well.Quote:
I think characters like Xande, Zeromus, and Seymour are dropped because their stories are very rooted in their own worlds and most don't have the real connection to their games main characters as people would think.
Ex-Death is a reflection of the sins of mankind. a by product of their hate and destructive nature, Kefka represents the true evil of humanity, a misanthropic, Nihilistic, sociopath. Kefka in particular goes through a bit of a psychological change in the story as goes from top thug to semi-omnipotent god. You could easily say they are just "Evil" but when you look at their story as a whole they have stronger meaning to themselves. Ultemacia could almost be thrown in this category herself (someone fighting against fate). Course I feel later villains also have this problem of either being accepted at face value or looking past it to a bit of deep nature. I personally feel most villains associated with X to be shallow and cliche but that is just my interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Despite this, Shuyin is an awful choice cause Tidus is the main character of X and Shuyin is a villain he never meets to begin with. So it seems rather silly to have them face each other. It would be like Cloud facing Genesis or the head of the original AVALANCHE from BC as his villains.Quote:
That could easily describe Shuyin as well.Quote:
I think characters like Xande, Zeromus, and Seymour are dropped because their stories are very rooted in their own worlds and most don't have the real connection to their games main characters as people would think.
Jecht was the best choice considering how much of Tidus' narrative revolves around his relationship with him. He doesn't even know Shuyin and Tidus is the main hero of X. If they make a sequel with the sequel/compilation stuff being thrown in, then Shuyin can face off with Gunner Yuna.
Well this is an old argument among fans of characters. I think of them as plain cliche evil and you think of them as deeper meanings. I say you'r eover-analzing to make them appear deep while you might say I'm over-generalizing to make them appear shallow.Quote:
Ex-Death is a reflection of the sins of mankind. a by product of their hate and destructive nature, Kefka represents the true evil of humanity, a misanthropic, Nihilistic, sociopath. Kefka in particular goes through a bit of a psychological change in the story as goes from top thug to semi-omnipotent god. You could easily say they are just "Evil" but when you look at their story as a whole they have stronger meaning to themselves. Ultemacia could almost be thrown in this category herself (someone fighting against fate). Course I feel later villains also have this problem of either being accepted at face value or looking past it to a bit of deep nature. I personally feel most villains associated with X to be shallow and cliche but that is just my interpretation.
I have nothing against Kefka or Ex Death but I view them as incredibly one-dimensional characters. Do you honestly think either of them have the depth of later FF antagonists?
Now I realize you can have depth without being a sympathetic villain but Kuja, Seymour and Shuyin all were obviously made to be sympathetic. They perform heinous actions but all those actions are directly a result of their past and things outside of their control.
I feel that makes an antagonist far more "deep" than simply going crazy because of an experiment.
We don't need any more pointless fanservice games.Quote:
Jecht was the best choice considering how much of Tidus' narrative revolves around his relationship with him. He doesn't even know Shuyin and Tidus is the main hero of X. If they make a sequel with the sequel/compilation stuff being thrown in, then Shuyin can face off with Gunner Yuna.
In what universe were either Shuyin or Seymour sympathetic? Seymour had no personality. Period. There was no way to be sympathetic because no matter how tragic his past history, he inspired as much empathy as a brick. And Shuyin was not even meant to be sympathetic. He had no depth to his character at all. The game says so. Everything he once felt was gone. He was two-dimensional, and was supposed to be that way. That's fine. It worked for X-2. I liked the game and I even liked Shuyin. But he was not a deep character.
Kefka was far more in-depth than Shuyin. I'm not going to give a fifteen paragraph post praising the depth of his character, but there are plenty of fans out there who will. Go ahead, pop into the FFVI forum and complain about his depth.
Also, I feel that you should stop bringing the other FF games into this. This question is about who should serve as the villain from X. No matter what your views on Kefka, FFVI didn't have the variety that X and X-2 give us to pick and choose. Kefka was pretty much the only one who could be the villain for that game. On the other hand, just because we were forced to choose Kefka for VI doesn't mean we should have to pick two dimensional "I be evil" villains for all the other games, especially when there are better options to be had.
Well I guess the creators just included the scene of Seymour crying and his mother dying for the lulz.Quote:
In what universe were either Shuyin or Seymour sympathetic? Seymour had no personality. Period. There was no way to be sympathetic because no matter how tragic his past history, he inspired as much empathy as a brick.
What the Fayth say of Shuyin contradicts the entire ending of the game. First Yuna posing as Lenne convinces him to stop. Then the real Lenne makes him stop. If all he was was a shadow composed of hate and anger, I don't think love would win the day....and yet it did.Quote:
And Shuyin was not even meant to be sympathetic. He had no depth to his character at all. The game says so. Everything he once felt was gone. He was two-dimensional, and was supposed to be that way. That's fine. It worked for X-2. I liked the game and I even liked Shuyin. But he was not a deep character.
2 seconds of baby Seymour crying didn't make me feel a thing for Seymour. Especially since you get no real connection between baby Seymour and the one we meet. It's just a few seconds of backstory telling us why he's an emotionless blob, there's no development of his character there at all.
I disagree that a villain needs trauma to be a good villain or considered deep. Part of the appeal for a character like Kefka is that exploring his psychology is like exploring the mind of a serial killer. It makes him very fascinating cause there are several elements that set him apart from the other villains and for me, this makes him more than a two dimensional character. I don't think we need to go into this so I will save the lecture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I feel there is major inconsistencies with the motives and back-stories of later FF villains which is why I have always had a difficult time feeling they were "deep". Far too often I feel the writers rely on cheap "sympathy" to make the characters more interesting despite their actions and past creating certain psychological inconsistencies. Sephiroth changes his motive every time a new plot element is revealed and it still changes when he shows up in the Compilation. Ultemacia was poorly written and considering how many different theories exist regarding her and how all of them share the same problem of having to make up her back story to justify her actions is proof of this bad writing.
I like Kuja and I feel he is one of the best villains in the series, especially since he doesn't play the sympathy card as hard as others do and despite understanding his reasoning, it never changed the fact he was a selfish bastard willing to kill for his own benefit.
Sin/Yu-Yevon is an interesting concept but I don't really consider it evil as much as a elemental force by the time X begins but Seymour never convinced me of being a great villain, He also suffers a bit of "Sephiroth syndrome" in that his motive changes quite a bit yet the game tries to lead you to believe he planned it all along which contradicts what he said hours before. I feel his little flashback as a sad attempt on the writers part to make him more than the two dimensional character he was and I feel it only causes more problems. I would be like seeing a flashback towards the end in VI, where you learn Kefka had an abusive alcoholic dad. I feel it cheapens the character rather than adds depth cause now your trying to make an attempt to explain them and doing a half ass job about it.
He's selfish and power hungry throughout all of the game and yet at the end he decides he needs to destroy Spira to save it despite not giving a damn about anyone up until then. Where the hell did this logic come from? His motive, actions, and past conflict with each other too much for my taste. Throw in the fact I never was able to take him seriously as a villain and he just went down hill for me.
Shuyin has similar respect issues for me. He gets his girlfriend and himself killed and decided to blame everyone but himself... how juvenile. Throw in his over the top acting when he possesses people and his "Phantom of the Opera" style final battle and I feel Shuyin is more laughable and irritating than deep and interesting. My thoughts when I faced him at the end was "OMG, Spira is going to be destroyed by the star of the High school drama club..." If Twilight was around when the game was made, I'm certain he would have had a vampire motif to his design as well.
Basically, he was so laughable to me that I can't take his trauma seriously and when I try to; I feel he's being a whiny kid who needs to grow up. I can't see him as a person pushed to the edge of sanity. I cannot respect him and a villain needs to be respected for them to work effectively.
My problem with the later games is that they try to stick to this idea that people are inherently good and evil is a result of something that society does to them. Sometimes, you are just born evil, Hojo is not exactly a two dimensional villain either, but has no backstory to explain his actions or motives. Yet, no one would argue that he needs these elements and most feel he is a wonderful and deep villain.
I think my main problem with the "sympathy card" is that I feel the past never justifies the characters action completely. I feel Sephiroth and Ultemacia went too bonkers considering their back stories; and I feel Seymour was fine until the end, when he decided to take some self righteous route, that for me, contradicts his entire personality up until that point. Shuyin is another that I feel his back story does not really justify his actions, and overall makes him appear more unstable and difficult to sympathize with.
Dissidia is a pointless fanservice game imo. Course it doesn't change I'm looking forward to it. I accept it for its pandering to the fans. :)Quote:
We don't need any more pointless fanservice games.Quote:
Jecht was the best choice considering how much of Tidus' narrative revolves around his relationship with him. He doesn't even know Shuyin and Tidus is the main hero of X. If they make a sequel with the sequel/compilation stuff being thrown in, then Shuyin can face off with Gunner Yuna.
It was established in X that everyone in Zanarkand was screwed and would probably die. So Yu Yevon created Sin to avoid this icomplete loss of their society. Shuyin chose to commandeer a superweapon to try and stop his home and love from being taken away from him.
Seems sensible to me. As for him blaming others....other people did kinda start the whole Machina War to begin with so he's ultimately right it is all their fault. He was simply forced to do what he had to do by circumstance they imposed on him.
I don't see how his acting is over-the-top..He talks pretty plainly when he reveals himself in Nooj in CHapter 3 and when he's using Baralai.
What do you mean by Phantom of the Opera style final battle?.
And the Twilight idea...are you saying X-2 ripped off stuff? Because none of the FFs are original. Each re-uses achetypes and ideas from other things.
EDIT:
YouTube - Final Fantasy X-2 - 048 - Baralai, Nooj & Gippal in Bevelle
I see nothing over-the-top about his voice-acting here. If you mean stuff like during the final battle with Vegnagun where he says things like "Come Vegnagun...let us purge this repulsive world" I don't see issue with that either but I guess you could say it was overdone. I think it was supposed to be however. Lines that like only work when you're trying to sound evil.
I can see where you are coming from Wolf.
http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fan...gonist-ff.html
As you can see I've ha da complete 180 on what I think of his character since I posted that. Having replayed the game and learned alla bout the Crimson Squadd stuff as well, I find it pretty awesome that Shuyin's hate and sadness alone turn people, and even the Fayth, insane. He also has some awesome final battle music and quotes....
YouTube - Shuyin Battle Quotes
He blames the death of Lenne and them being separated on everyone but himself, despite the fact it was his own damn fault for being in Bevelle and having Lenne follow him to their untimely deaths. He doesn't try to commandeer Vegnagun to stop Zanarkand from Sin as much as he does it to keep Lenne from having to fight on the frontlines. She tries to stop him cause Vegnagun would cause unspeakable destruction and she can't have that on her conscience. They get killed and he decides humanity needs to suffer cause he's dead from his own damn fault and can't pass on cause he doesn't want to?
I just feel his actions are a bit extreme. I can see him trying to get revenge against Bevelle but writing off the whole damn planet cause he got himself screwed over feels like something only a social outcast in high school could relate to. He's obviously unstable to begin with since he's willing to destroy all of mankind so his girlfriend doesn't have to fight. Some may say its romantic but I find it childish.
As for the Phantom of the Opera, its the whole fact he's playing that organ to control Vegnagun and its a horribly funny cliche when it comes to stereotypical villains. The Twilight reference was a joke because to me, Shuyin is basically a whiny HS kid who probably jumps into these fads. I feel his dialogue is a bit overly melodramatic but that's a personal opinion and is subject to personal interpretation.