Questions for those hardcore FFX fans.

Well, number 1, i was wondering, what are you guy's takes on the whole Zanarkand thing? Do you believe theres two? Or do you think Tidus teleported 1000 years into the future? Im a believer of the 2 Zanarkand's theory. Just because on the map there is another island and Sin probably just transported Tidus to the main lands and not 1000 years into the future.

2. What is the whole connection with the blitzball prayer in the beginning of the game at Besaid? Tidus said it was a blitzball symbol for victory, and didnt recognize it as a Spira prayer. But it seems like that prayer has been around for awhile in Spira. I say this because maybe i was wondering if Jecht taught them that, but that would only be 10 years and the Head Besaid Priest seemed to have known the prayer for more than 10 years im sure. Or maybe it jst so happens to be a coincidence in motion. IDK.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks Alot

Have you finished the game? You should know this stuff if you have.

1. It has been establish that Tidus came from the dream of the Fayth. The specifically; the Fayth dreamt of Zanarkand of a millennium ago. Tidus' Zanarkand is only a memory--a dream--of what once was. The Zanarkand you visit in the game is the actual place.

2. The Yevon Prayer being a Blitzball sign for victory was never clearly explained, as far as I remember. Most likely the Yevonites adopted the gesture due to the popularity of blitzball. It is not uncommon for religions to adopt various parts of secular life or other religions in order to ease the conversion into their own. That's my educated guess.

It was a prayer before it was a sign for victory. The Fayth dreamt up this Zanarkand, so they can make anything whatever they want it to be, i.e. a prayer gesture becomes a sign for victory. Yevon isn't known about in the dream Zanarkand but his teachings were present nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

It was a prayer before it was a sign for victory. The Fayth dreamt up this Zanarkand, so they can make anything whatever they want it to be, i.e. a prayer gesture becomes a sign for victory. Yevon isn't known about in the dream Zanarkand but his teachings were present nevertheless.

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We don't know for sure what the real Zanarkand was like, we can't say if it is was always a prayer or not. Plus, Tidus' Zanarkand while fictional was nonetheless based on the real thing, making it likely that it was a sign for victory first. Moreover, Yevon, the religion, is only founded after the creation of Sin and the Fayth thus its teachings could not be present in Dream Zanarkand since the religion was a constructed after Yu Yevon made Sin and the others became Fayths.

Hardcore FF X fans truly exist!?:Eek:

Yes. Dream Zanarkand is/was actually a real physical location. Think of the city as a gigantic aeon with thousands of small aeons living on it, minus all the super powers of regular aeons. All of it had actual physical mass, constructed from the summoning done by the many fayths in mount Gagazet. This is why it was possible for some of the summoned "aeons" (Tidus and Jecht) to leave "Dream Zanarkand" and come in contact with the rest of Spira.

Mirage is correct, though i wouldn't go so far as to call the inhabitants of DZ akin to Aeons, but rather a physical manifestation of what the Fayth wanted... also the FFX Ultimania points out the physical location of DZ, far east of Real Zanarkand...

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Originally Posted by Elly

Mirage is correct, though i wouldn't go so far as to call the inhabitants of DZ akin to Aeons, but rather a physical manifestation of what the Fayth wanted... also the FFX Ultimania points out the physical location of DZ, far east of Real Zanarkand...

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I didn't know that. Thank you :)

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

It was a prayer before it was a sign for victory. The Fayth dreamt up this Zanarkand, so they can make anything whatever they want it to be, i.e. a prayer gesture becomes a sign for victory. Yevon isn't known about in the dream Zanarkand but his teachings were present nevertheless.

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We don't know for sure what the real Zanarkand was like, we can't say if it is was always a prayer or not. Plus, Tidus' Zanarkand while fictional was nonetheless based on the real thing, making it likely that it was a sign for victory first. Moreover, Yevon, the religion, is only founded after the creation of Sin and the Fayth thus its teachings could not be present in Dream Zanarkand since the religion was a constructed after Yu Yevon made Sin and the others became Fayths.

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It may have been a sign for victory first, but why would a religion adopt a sports gesture as their prayer sign? The Fayth were people who gave up their lives for a way to defeat Sin [I]for their religion[I]. If Yu Yevon and his teachings came after Sin had appeared then there would be no Sin. No creator, no Sin.

Furthermore, if Yevon started his teachings after Sin appeared, no one would have believed what he was saying. For all they knew it could have just been some sort of freak fiend. After a while, not being able to kill it they would have started believing him I'm sure, but it makes more sense (to me) that the teachings have always been around. It's like a boogey-man story, "Stop using Machina or Sin'll get you! Oh look I was right, here comes Sin now!". He's got his priest's and priestess' and when Sin actually shows "himself", then the rest of the world starts believing and repenting and whatnot.

To go all the way back to my first point, I would think that it was a prayer first because (after saying all that above) the Fayth were Yu Yevon's priests and priestess' who sacrificed themselves to fight Sin, so it would make sense to incorporate the prayer to ward off Sin (Just speculation mind you) in the new world they have created.

Because it is not uncommon for religions to adopt local customs when trying to win over new converts. Look at a majority of Christian imagery, major holidays or the veneration of the Virgin Mary. So much of that has pagan roots. Why did the church adopt aspects of local "pagan" practises, because it is easier to win over new converts. Same logic.

Actually, Sin is a creation of the Fayth and Yu Yevon. Yevon, the religion, was established by Yunalesca. The Fayth were simply the people of Zanarkand who gave up their lives to create the Dream Zanarkand. So the religion, according to the game, really only sets roots after the creation of Dream Zanarkand and Sin. NOT before. Yevon religion revolves around Sin and is basically a cover up to glorify Yu Yevon's actions. That is why Yevon doesn't exist as it did in X in X-2 because Sin is no longer there. The central aspect of Yevon, that by following the Yevon religion one day Sin will be gone, become moot with the success of High Summoner Yuna.

The game does not support the existence of Yevon before the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle (Summoners and machina). History was simply rewritten by the victors, the summoners.

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Originally Posted by Elly

Mirage is correct, though i wouldn't go so far as to call the inhabitants of DZ akin to Aeons, but rather a physical manifestation of what the Fayth wanted... also the FFX Ultimania points out the physical location of DZ, far east of Real Zanarkand...

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They're made of the same stuff, and made in the same way! In that they're the same. They haven't got superpowers though, and don't have to do someones bidding.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

Because it is not uncommon for religions to adopt local customs when trying to win over new converts. Look at a majority of Christian imagery, major holidays or the veneration of the Virgin Mary. So much of that has pagan roots. Why did the church adopt aspects of local "pagan" practises, because it is easier to win over new converts. Same logic.

Actually, Sin is a creation of the Fayth and Yu Yevon. Yevon, the religion, was established by Yunalesca. The Fayth were simply the people of Zanarkand who gave up their lives to create the Dream Zanarkand. So the religion, according to the game, really only sets roots after the creation of Dream Zanarkand and Sin. NOT before. Yevon religion revolves around Sin and is basically a cover up to glorify Yu Yevon's actions. That is why Yevon doesn't exist as it did in X in X-2 because Sin is no longer there. The central aspect of Yevon, that by following the Yevon religion one day Sin will be gone, become moot with the success of High Summoner Yuna.

The game does not support the existence of Yevon before the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle (Summoners and machina). History was simply rewritten by the victors, the summoners.

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Touche! :fencing: :thumb:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

The game does not support the existence of Yevon before the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle (Summoners and machina). History was simply rewritten by the victors, the summoners.

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Touche! :fencing: :thumb:

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As I recall Bevelle won the war. I know someone states in the game that "the summoners didn't stand a chance against Bevelle's machina". As a last resort to let Zanarkand "live on", Yu Yevon created Dream Zanarkand.

What's this!? Something I completely overlooked!?

This brings up a question. If what you're saying is true, Summoner of Leviathan, if Yevon's religion didn't exist before Sin, then how could there be Fayth (a minimal amount maybe) around for the Summoners to use if it was Yevon who suggested the Fayth? Also, if the Fayth were what they (the Summoners) needed to kill Sin by giving their souls (or rather Aeons), then what did the Summoners summon exactly if their were no Fayths around. Wouldn't that corroborate my thought that Yevon (as a religion) has been around even before Sin?

Even if you don't agree, it makes a good theory, no?

Where is it stated that Yevon came up with the idea of Fayths?

I would assume that the Fayths, being part of Summoners' and Maesters' pilgrimages, would have been the idea of Yevon, seeing as how it is his religion and all.

On a side note: I'm not saying all this is right, I'm just saying all of this because this is how I interpreted it from the game.

Nononono, Summoners and Fayth existed in the wayway back before Yevon made a last ditch effort to save the peoples of Zanarkand by making them Fayths. This is how I understood it:

So the Summoners of Zanarkand and the people of Bevelle have this great big war, and the Summoners are ttly losing. Yevon, who was probably some super awesome big Summoner priest guy came up with a last ditch effort to protect Zanarkand and seek revenge on the rest of the world. He convices/forces the people of Zanarkand to sacrifice themselves and become a huge part of one giant Fayth/Aeon. The dream Zanarkand is so called because it exists only as a dream of the sleeping Fayth. Yevon then uses the power of this Fayth to create Sin, his roving monster that no one can stop and he controls. But, as usual, absolute power corrutps absolutely and he goes crazy and kills anything in his path. But there's a problem. We find out that Sin actually does have weaknesses, it can be beaten it can die. So Yunalesca comes up with this plan to feed it more Aeons, allowing it to merge with them and keep on punishing the world for it's dastardly ways. She invents the religion, she goes on the first pilgrimmage and whacks her boyfriend to feed to Yu-Yevon/Sin so they can keep on punishing them some infidels who dare use technology forver and ever.

Meanwhile, Dream Zanarkand still exists to perpetuate what the Summoners wanted to have and power Sin around the world so it can kill stuff in between feedings. Remember there's no machina in DZ. And also no of whatever they called Rikku's people. Can't remember. The Zanarkanadians... They a bunch of racists.

Unfortunately they call one of their big gun Fayth's out (Jecht) to feed to Sin. He still has a heart, he tells Auron stories about his son and they all figure out what's going on. Auron is pissed as hell, tries to kill Yunalesca so she can't make anymore people go on this stupid journey but he dies in the process. However, he's such a badass that he makes himself his own Fayth, his own Aeon, and crosses over to Dream Zanarkand to find the only entity he figures can reach out to JechtSin - his son Tidus.

But maybe I'm Future Esthar crazytalk here lol

There are a couple things I'm not getting but, overall, it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

But there's a problem. We find out that Sin actually does have weaknesses, it can be beaten it can die. So Yunalesca comes up with this plan to feed it more Aeons, allowing it to merge with them and keep on punishing the world for it's dastardly ways.

Meanwhile, Dream Zanarkand still exists to perpetuate what the Summoners wanted to have and power Sin around the world so it can kill stuff in between feedings. Remember there's no machina in DZ. And also no of whatever they called Rikku's people. Can't remember. The Zanarkanadians... They a bunch of racists.

Unfortunately they call one of their big gun Fayth's out (Jecht) to feed to Sin. He still has a heart, he tells Auron stories about his son and they all figure out what's going on. Auron is pissed as hell, tries to kill Yunalesca so she can't make anymore people go on this stupid journey but he dies in the process. However, he's such a badass that he makes himself his own Fayth, his own Aeon, and crosses over to Dream Zanarkand to find the only entity he figures can reach out to JechtSin - his son Tidus.

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It is not known if Yunalesca approved of her father's intentions or means. I do not believe that she was present in Zanarkand at all during the war (for some reason, I am remembering her abode as being in Bevelle, but I could be wrong). However, what is known is that over the course of her many years after the Final Aeon cycle, she eventually came up with the knowledge that people are idiots, and that they are best contained. I've got a long theory about how much death screws with your perceptions in FFX. The Fayth that operate DZ are generally benevolent. There were no Al Bhed probably because they as an ethnic peoples did not exist yet.

Jecht's journey to the real Spira was entirely by accident, as he got sucked up by Sin after swimming too far out one day. Tidus' venture into Spira was entirely by design. Auron didn't become an Aeon, he just plain went off and died (this leads to him finding a younger Kimahri, and telling him about Yuna, which is part of the reason why she went from Bevelle to Besaid). Normally, dead people stick around long enough either to become fiends, or to go to the Farplane, but Auron didn't do either (there are cases of people doing neither, as long as there is a good reason for it), and was part of Jecht's grand orchestration.

Aeons, entities that are made out of Pyreflies (they also constitute dead people, fiends, and other natural phenomena), are independent beings that answer to whoever it is that they deem worthy. Jecht is effectively at the center of a big giant plothax, but he an Auron are more or less in cahoots throughout the entire game. DZ is one big giant Aeon, and the statues in Gagazet are the Fayth, while Yu Yevon is the Summoner. Pyreflies are at the center of everything.

As for the Fayth in FFX, the particular statues employed and found throughout the game most likely are the implements of the Yevon religion (Valefor, Ifrit, Ixion, Shiva, Bahamut, and Yojimbo), but Aeons themselves have existed beforehand and were secular beings; the ones in FFX fade away at the end because the primary (i.e., Fayth-independent) method to Summoning has been lost. Otherwise, the Zanarkand summoners would have had no use of them. Examples, such as Anima, has her own Fayth, but by no means was she a creation of the Yevon Clergy (it is more likely that she is Seymour's version of the Final Aeon). As for the Magus Sisters, we have no idea where they come from. They're just there.

In some ways, FFX-2 helps to clear this up, as Aeons can continue to exist (albeit slightly nuts), and in other ways, it screws it up.

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Originally Posted by Pete for President

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

The game does not support the existence of Yevon before the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle (Summoners and machina). History was simply rewritten by the victors, the summoners.

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Touche! :fencing: :thumb:

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As I recall Bevelle won the war. I know someone states in the game that "the summoners didn't stand a chance against Bevelle's machina". As a last resort to let Zanarkand "live on", Yu Yevon created Dream Zanarkand.

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That doesn't mean that Bevelle won, it could simply highlight Yu Yevon's desperation when he created Dream Zanarkand and Sin.

I was always under the impression Zanarkand won insofar as the infiltration of Yevon throughout Spira and the subsequent banning of "unsafe" machina by Yevon.

Also, I think someone said DZ did not have machina. It did. The blitzball stadium is just one example. Just look around at the opening of the game in DZ and you will find plenty more.

As for the Fayths, we can safely assume that they did indeed exist before the creation of Yevon, as Tavrobel pointed out. We can't say much about how the Summoner of Zanarkand summoned but I'd guess they used fayths too. I have a suspicion that maybe they had technology that had allowed them to make fayths, could explain why Seymour's mom was able to become one. Perhaps the old ruins where you get Anima, where we know Seymour at some pointed lived (I think), had a machina that allowed her to do it? Entirely speculation though.

Looking at the few examples, we can deduct a few things about Fayths. It would see that to become a fayth it is most likely has to be voluntary. Seymour's mom, the guardians used in the Final Aeon, the people of Zanarkand, all seem to have been willing to become fayths for whatever reasons. That leads me to my second deduction: the relationship between fayth and summoner is most likely affective. Seymour and his mom, guardian and summoner, people and city (technically here the summoner is Yu Yevon), etc...It seems that there is some sort of sympathetic bond. It would also explain why the summoners on a pilgrimage must be approved by each fayth. I believe it is reasonable to assume the fayths want to protect Spira from Sin and the summoner's wish to do so resonated with the fayth. That being said, the fayth are most likely to be independent from Yevon. It would explain the elaborate temple complexes that guard each Yevon-sanctified fayth. Were the fayth not independent there would be no need to have the puzzle-solving thing before entering the chamber of the fayth, nor would it be highly guarded. If the fayth were working with Yevon, they could be simply be available to the public to see because they would not lend their power to any of them save for those the clergy approved. This is further substantiated by the fact that the fayth realize that they want to "wake up" from the "dream". Though by "waking up" they will render their statues useless, rendering summoners powerless. Summoners in a sense are the champions of the Yevon religion as are the High Summoners their martyrs.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

That doesn't mean that Bevelle won, it could simply highlight Yu Yevon's desperation when he created Dream Zanarkand and Sin.

I was always under the impression Zanarkand won insofar as the infiltration of Yevon throughout Spira and the subsequent banning of "unsafe" machina by Yevon.

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One could argue that it was the utter wholesomeness of the defeat that caused Yu Yevon to have to resort to mass suicide. They [Bevelle] could have won this particular war, but the emergence of Sin escalated the situation, and effectively turned it into a new one.

Unless you want to bring in FFX-2 into this, which makes the timeline a little clearer: Sin was the result of Yu Yevon's actions immediately after the war; it could not possibly have been that Zanarkand won. If he had done so during the war, Bevelle would not have been caught off guard and unable to counter. In this case, Vegnagun would've been employed, and based on his Machinedramon-sized cannon, Bevelle would have instantaneously started and won a war with everyone else on the planet, too.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

Also, I think someone said DZ did not have machina. It did. The blitzball stadium is just one example. Just look around at the opening of the game in DZ and you will find plenty more.

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This is also true. It is one of the common links between DZ and Spira that Tidus is able to relate to. I believe that he says something about it, but I would have to look through the script.

As for the Summons and the Fayth, it's possible they could have been summoned through more traditional means (like being randomly called out of thin air). However, I can accept that the Fayths could be entirely independent of the the religion, except that they are housed within the Temples. I'm sure they would have objected to being enshrined in such a way; even Yojimbo, the most mercenary-like Aeon, was stolen from a Temple.

But ultimately, any definitive link will remain in contention, because we simply don't know how deep the association lies, and the Ultimania doesn't help in this case. It could be a matter of freely offered service, they could have been duped by Yu Yevon, it could have been coercive (Yu Yevon or the Clergy), or they themselves are in cahoots with Yu Yevon before deciding after 1000 years "this is boring, I want to do something else." It could even be a combination of all four, and while the general idea was to help, they were kept in the dark about certain things.