True Series Progress?

I am glued to FFXIII information leaks. It looks like it might turn out to be my favorite FF, making it my fav game. The combat looks like it's going to be a blast, the story is intensely intriguing, and the voice acting is excellent.

Which makes me think, is FFXIII becoming more international? The characters looks far more realistic and less anime-like, the English voicework is very interesting as well, the actors sound like they are voicing a European or American product, as the voices aren't exageratted and there are multiple accent types. FF is getting better and better as the series grows, becoming less of some zany world-trotting RPG boredom, and is looking to actually be more sophisticated and mature, while still remaining charming enough to feel whimsical.

So, is the more mature and less anime-esque vibe appealing to you or do you feel in detracts what Final Fantasy is all about?

Besides X-2, Final Fantasy never seemed to be heavilly influenced by anime to me. Well, there was the voice acting in X... But look at XII for example! That one was more like a movie, rather than anime.
I mean, the series did seem similar to anime to me before... But I played Persona 3 lately. Really, FF doesn't have so much to do with anime...

Anyway! I LOVE how XIII looks :)

Realistic, non-anime vibe?

Are we seeing the same game? Over-the-top wire-fu with a combat system that has your party DMC style juggling opponents in the air? A summon that turns into a motorcycle that Snowe can ride into battle? A world that is one part Compilation Midgard, one part 2nd Milita (Xenosaga II), and one part extra unused dungeons from FFX?

I don't see any realism except in the characters faces. The game reeks of anime cliches and designs. Hell, at this point it looks more like a spin off title for Devil May Cry than the next Final Fantasy.

I'm not saying the game is going to be bad but I can't say I really seem much progress in terms of design but rather just in technical aspects like audio and visual. The game to me still feels like nothing more than a rehash of elements used in the Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima era FFs.

I might agree, although I may have different measurements than you do. To me they try something different everytime, especially with the last 3 FF's getting rid of ATB (FFX), going online (FFXI) or breaking down pretty much every convention it used to have (FFXII). FFXII is one of my favorite RPG's of all time, if I was stuck on an island and could only bring 5 games, XII would be one of them. Each new game may not necessarily be better than what came before it, but it goes in a different direction and that gets incorporated as a learning experience for making future games.

It's always exciting when a franchise makes its way onto a new platform, so we'll see how it does. I don't really know what to make of FFXIII as of late, but I'm really hoping on it being another epic adventure.

Absolutely everything we've been shown of FFXIII has been scalp-deep in the usual Nomura neon anime Shibuya schlock. There is nothing mature or transcendental about it. Tell me you're putting me on.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Realistic, non-anime vibe?

Are we seeing the same game? Over-the-top wire-fu with a combat system that has your party DMC style juggling opponents in the air? A summon that turns into a motorcycle that Snowe can ride into battle? A world that is one part Compilation Midgard, one part 2nd Milita (Xenosaga II), and one part extra unused dungeons from FFX?

I don't see any realism except in the characters faces. The game reeks of anime cliches and designs. Hell, at this point it looks more like a spin off title for Devil May Cry than the next Final Fantasy.

I'm not saying the game is going to be bad but I can't say I really seem much progress in terms of design but rather just in technical aspects like audio and visual. The game to me still feels like nothing more than a rehash of elements used in the Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima era FFs.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryukishi

Absolutely everything we've been shown of FFXIII has been scalp-deep in the usual Nomura neon anime Shibuya schlock. There is nothing mature or transcendental about it. Tell me you're putting me on.

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This. The more I see of XIII, the less excited I am for it. At this point I'm actually looking forward to Dragon Quest IX a lot more then I am FFXIII.

Holy Crap:

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Absolutely everything we've been shown of FFXIII has been scalp-deep in the usual Nomura neon anime Shibuya schlock. There is nothing mature or transcendental about it. Tell me you're putting me on.

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^ Translation: "I disagree with your ideas to such a great extent that I ask you to go back and state that they were made in sarcasm."

I think the level of pretension by some of the senior members in this forum can be directly correlated to the declining activity in gaming discussion subforums. Do you really think the original poster Laddy enjoys coming here when her opinions are received with such little respect?

In the OP's defense, I think FFXIII takes a bold step forward in the theme of exploitation which Yoshinori Kitase introduced to the series in Final Fantasy VI. The fact that humans, not summons, not moombas are being enslaved and subjugated into different castes indicates that XIII is going to be a powerful commentary on what human beings are capable of doing to each other.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

In the OP's defense, I think FFXIII takes a bold step forward in the theme of exploitation which Yoshinori Kitase introduced to the series in Final Fantasy VI. The fact that humans, not summons, not moombas are being enslaved and subjugated into different castes indicates that XIII is going to be a powerful commentary on what human beings are capable of doing to each other.

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My only problem with this is that its something that Square did with Chrono Trigger 14 years ago. In fact its a pretty common theme in a lot of RPGs in the PS1 and 2 eras. So for me, it might be thought of as progress for the FF series but I feel its more like "catching up".

Looking back on the series, I feel FF has slowly fallen behind in terms of pushing the boundaries of story telling and characters. Technologically, they are still the best but I find them artistically mediocre. Even XII which is one of the more mature FFs is considerably muted compared to the teams FFT and Vagrant Story entries. Even the darker themes in FFTA are a serious slap in the face compared to the best themes from the recent FF games. I look at XIII and see nothing truly groundbreaking. But this is just my humble opinion. :p

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Holy Crap:

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Absolutely everything we've been shown of FFXIII has been scalp-deep in the usual Nomura neon anime Shibuya schlock. There is nothing mature or transcendental about it. Tell me you're putting me on.

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^ Translation: "I disagree with your ideas to such a great extent that I ask you to go back and state that they were made in sarcasm."

I think the level of pretension by some of the senior members in this forum can be directly correlated to the declining activity in gaming discussion subforums.

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I assure you that I find your admiration for Nomura, Kitase, and company is at least as insane as you might find my dismissal of them.

It is shiny and it goes zoom fastfast bang kapow. I will buy.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Holy Crap:

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Absolutely everything we've been shown of FFXIII has been scalp-deep in the usual Nomura neon anime Shibuya schlock. There is nothing mature or transcendental about it. Tell me you're putting me on.

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^ Translation: "I disagree with your ideas to such a great extent that I ask you to go back and state that they were made in sarcasm."

I think the level of pretension by some of the senior members in this forum can be directly correlated to the declining activity in gaming discussion subforums.

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I assure you that I find your admiration for Nomura, Kitase, and company is at least as insane as you might find my dismissal of them.

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As far as I'm concerned, if you're looking into Final Fantasy plots for anything beyond middle school level pseudo-philosophy told via soap opera storytelling conventions, you're doing it very, very wrong. Even the best stories in the series are frequently difficult to take seriously, most often because of how seriously they take themselves.

The closest I've ever seen a video game come to being emotionally moving or take on any particularly powerful subject matter was in Lost Odyssey, and really only in the Thousand Years of Dreams which was a collection of beautifully crafted short stories.

That's not to say that I don't find the plots of the games entertaining, but it's not exactly something one should expect to hold any sort of literary significance or have particularly well-developed social commentary. I'd love to see more of that, but it's not something I've come to expect.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Holy Crap:

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Absolutely everything we've been shown of FFXIII has been scalp-deep in the usual Nomura neon anime Shibuya schlock. There is nothing mature or transcendental about it. Tell me you're putting me on.

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^ Translation: "I disagree with your ideas to such a great extent that I ask you to go back and state that they were made in sarcasm."

I think the level of pretension by some of the senior members in this forum can be directly correlated to the declining activity in gaming discussion subforums. Do you really think the original poster Laddy enjoys coming here when her opinions are received with such little respect?

In the OP's defense, I think FFXIII takes a bold step forward in the theme of exploitation which Yoshinori Kitase introduced to the series in Final Fantasy VI. The fact that humans, not summons, not moombas are being enslaved and subjugated into different castes indicates that XIII is going to be a powerful commentary on what human beings are capable of doing to each other.

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The last paragraph is win.

Oh, and I am a dude.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Realistic, non-anime vibe?

Are we seeing the same game? Over-the-top wire-fu with a combat system that has your party DMC style juggling opponents in the air? A summon that turns into a motorcycle that Snowe can ride into battle? A world that is one part Compilation Midgard, one part 2nd Milita (Xenosaga II), and one part extra unused dungeons from FFX?

I don't see any realism except in the characters faces. The game reeks of anime cliches and designs. Hell, at this point it looks more like a spin off title for Devil May Cry than the next Final Fantasy.

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That's what she was referring to though if you read this line she didn't say the game as a whole.

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the characters looks far more realistic and less anime-like,

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I also have to disagree about the DMC spin off. None of the designs or the settings are similar to DMC which takes place in a modern/goth setting with most of the characters dressing in similar attires while XIII is set in a futuristic setting with varying clothes type from tribal to urban. Nor is the gameplay of XIII like DMC either.

I believe that Square is hoping that XIII will be the next VII. I'm not speaking in terms of story or anything like that, but to create a new standard base to the currently younger generation who would play XIII as their first FF and grow up with it being their favorite and creating another rivaling community where people would have arguments down the road that XIII is the best and the main villain is the best there is while the smaller community fans will be saying that XII or XV is the greatest.

I'm not really sure about the idea that it will be reaching a new international fan point. It all depends on how they would advertise the game because I see FF still as a genre that is not accepted by a lot of the gaming community, but I am looking forward to the game and am hoping for the best for it.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Realistic, non-anime vibe?

Are we seeing the same game? Over-the-top wire-fu with a combat system that has your party DMC style juggling opponents in the air? A summon that turns into a motorcycle that Snowe can ride into battle? A world that is one part Compilation Midgard, one part 2nd Milita (Xenosaga II), and one part extra unused dungeons from FFX?

I don't see any realism except in the characters faces. The game reeks of anime cliches and designs. Hell, at this point it looks more like a spin off title for Devil May Cry than the next Final Fantasy.

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That's what she was referring to though if you read this line she didn't say the game as a whole.

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And my comment is about the visual style of the game, that detracts from any realism one might gleam from the game; cause no matter how realistic it looks, I'm still riding a motorcycle made from a pair of twins. :p

As for the character's looking realistic, they have been for years and I seriously don't see much of a leap from previous full cgi entries from SE. Thus I don't see the big deal or progress.

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I also have to disagree about the DMC spin off. None of the designs or the settings are similar to DMC which takes place in a modern/goth setting with most of the characters dressing in similar attires while XIII is set in a futuristic setting with varying clothes type from tribal to urban. Nor is the gameplay of XIII like DMC either.

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DMC utilizes a gothic architecture but the outfits are pure modern street design and I feel the same about XIII's. Vanille doesn't look tribal, she looks like a girl using name brand items and configure it to give the impression of "tribal" while still being very much modern. I honestly don't see much variation outside of the gaudy designs of side character and possible villain figure. Most of the clothing of the main cast could easily be replicated by going to a thrift store. :roll2

The combat system itself, reminds of DMC's, as the core appeal is juggling opponents with combos which is the same philosophy for XIII's system. Not to mention the wire-fu used in a lot of trailers doesn't help with DMC's use of wire-fu.

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I believe that Square is hoping that XIII will be the next VII. I'm not speaking in terms of story or anything like that, but to create a new standard base to the currently younger generation who would play XIII as their first FF and grow up with it being their favorite and creating another rivaling community where people would have arguments down the road that XIII is the best and the main villain is the best there is while the smaller community fans will be saying that XII or XV is the greatest.

I'm not really sure about the idea that it will be reaching a new international fan point. It all depends on how they would advertise the game because I see FF still as a genre that is not accepted by a lot of the gaming community, but I am looking forward to the game and am hoping for the best for it.

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I feel the same way, its like what they were doing with FFX as well. Yet I feel FF is accepted as a whole by the gaming community, its anything that doesn't have FF in the title that's out on the ropes. The appeal of rpgs have dwindled but I feel FF has taken a place as a core title much like MGS, Gran Turismo, Madden, and Mario. Its become the causal crowd's "choice" for the RPG.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm still riding a motorcycle made from a pair of twins. :p

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Take this out of context, and Kanno's personal life seems so much more interesting...

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I feel the same way, its like what they were doing with FFX as well. Yet I feel FF is accepted as a whole by the gaming community, its anything that doesn't have FF in the title that's out on the ropes. The appeal of rpgs have dwindled but I feel FF has taken a place as a core title much like MGS, Gran Turismo, Madden, and Mario. Its become the causal crowd's "choice" for the RPG.

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This is unfortunately true.

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but the outfits are pure modern street design

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Err what about Nero, Vergil, Kyrie, Credo, Agnus, Arius, Matier, and Gloria?

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The combat system itself, reminds of DMC's, as the core appeal is juggling opponents with combos which is the same philosophy for XIII's system. Not to mention the wire-fu used in a lot of trailers doesn't help with DMC's use of wire-fu.

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Oh, I was just looking at it from the point of it turn-based with use of magic and summoning.

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The appeal of rpgs have dwindled but I feel FF has taken a place as a core title much like MGS, Gran Turismo, Madden, and Mario. Its become the causal crowd's "choice" for the RPG.

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Those two sentences sound contradicting to me.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

As far as I'm concerned, if you're looking into Final Fantasy plots for anything beyond middle school level pseudo-philosophy told via soap opera storytelling conventions, you're doing it very, very wrong. Even the best stories in the series are frequently difficult to take seriously, most often because of how seriously they take themselves.

The closest I've ever seen a video game come to being emotionally moving or take on any particularly powerful subject matter was in Lost Odyssey, and really only in the Thousand Years of Dreams which was a collection of beautifully crafted short stories.

That's not to say that I don't find the plots of the games entertaining, but it's not exactly something one should expect to hold any sort of literary significance or have particularly well-developed social commentary. I'd love to see more of that, but it's not something I've come to expect.

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I don't expect anything like that, either. Nomura-styled video games are just incredibly dumb, even compared to other games.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

As far as I'm concerned, if you're looking into Final Fantasy plots for anything beyond middle school level pseudo-philosophy told via soap opera storytelling conventions, you're doing it very, very wrong. Even the best stories in the series are frequently difficult to take seriously, most often because of how seriously they take themselves.

The closest I've ever seen a video game come to being emotionally moving or take on any particularly powerful subject matter was in Lost Odyssey, and really only in the Thousand Years of Dreams which was a collection of beautifully crafted short stories.

That's not to say that I don't find the plots of the games entertaining, but it's not exactly something one should expect to hold any sort of literary significance or have particularly well-developed social commentary. I'd love to see more of that, but it's not something I've come to expect.

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I don't expect anything like that, either. Nomura-styled video games are just incredibly dumb, even compared to other games.

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I guess having your quote right above might have suggested otherwise, but I wasn't really accusing you of any of that. I just get annoyed when I see people trying to argue that any Final Fantasy titles are particularly thought-provoking.

I see what you mean, though. Nomura's stuff is a bit of a step below the rest, particularly because it frequently tries to present itself as being deep and meaningful when it's just not, and that just tends to make it even worse. I'll admit, though, I enjoy my fair share of it, but not because I feel it has any real substance to it. Take Kingdom Hearts, for example. It frequently takes itself very seriously, but when it boils down to it, the Disney movies it incorporates are frequently more profound than the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm still riding a motorcycle made from a pair of twins. :p

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Take this out of context, and Kanno's personal life seems so much more interesting...

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If only you knew... :jokey:

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

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but the outfits are pure modern street design

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Err what about Nero, Vergil, Kyrie, Credo, Agnus, Arius, Matier, and Gloria?

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Ignoring the psuedo religious/Military uniforms that are based off real world outfits except obviously Gloria's and DMC 2 cause it sucks...:roll2 its still basically street close in the core cast. I actually have Vergil's outfit (though in a different color), and Nero's is street close with the exception of his otherworldly vest of belts he wears. In fact looking at DMC4, I feel the designs seem somewhat inspired by Nomura designs which is really sad cause the DMC4 artist has done better work...(BoF anyone?)

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Oh, I was just looking at it from the point of it turn-based with use of magic and summoning.

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There is a much greater emphasis on visual aesthetics for the battles, in fact the director has actually made a point to mention how long they worked on the visuals for the combat system in several interviews.

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The appeal of rpgs have dwindled but I feel FF has taken a place as a core title much like MGS, Gran Turismo, Madden, and Mario. Its become the causal crowd's "choice" for the RPG.

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Those two sentences sound contradicting to me.

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Not really if you think about it. RPGs as a whole are not doing as stellar as they did, say 10 years ago when they went mainstream. But I guarantee FFXIII will do phenomenal numbers. Basically the casual crowd doesn't have the patience or care to play through... say Yggdrasil Union or Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor but they may jump into a Final Fantasy cause its become a name brand.

Its popular and it has a good rep so they may jump in without actually knowing anything about it. Its like how sports games do decently but Madden breaks sales records. There are several good and unknown sandbox games out there (like Steambot Chronicles or Crackdown) but only GTA really ever breaks serious numbers. The genre does okay but it seems like only one series ever does exceptionally well.

RPGs don't really seem to get much coverage like they use to unless it has Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the title or if its part of Morrowind or made by Bioware.

I just wanna say I take credit for single-handedly reviving this thread ( :p
) but more importantly I'm glad to see we're putting some things on the table.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

RPGs don't really seem to get much coverage like they use to unless it has Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the title or if its part of Morrowind or made by Bioware.

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Dude, that's how our market economy works. Firms don't have enough resources to supplement every title with block-buster advertising, so they funnel the consumer to a select few titles while allowing the rest of the genre to serve as a long tail. It has nothing to do with the attitudes of average game players or the quality of mainstream nor obscure games.

If Paris Hilton talked about Devil Summoner, X-Play gave it a 5/5, the fanboy idiots at Kotaku quoted its developers out of context (re: MGS4 is Not Revolutionary by Mike Fahey), and the localization team gave gameplay tutorials at Gametrailers, it would probably sell a million plus.

Side Note: Crackdown sold 1.5 million units, and pound for pound it's still a poor man's GTA so your example fails on two fronts.

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My only problem with this is that its something that Square did with Chrono Trigger 14 years ago. In fact its a pretty common theme in a lot of RPGs in the PS1 and 2 eras. So for me, it might be thought of as progress for the FF series but I feel its more like "catching up".

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Man, I love CT so much, that entire chapter blew my mind, and that game was lightyears ahead of its time, but you pretty much summed it up in your own response. The title of the thread is "true series progress" not genre progress or platform progress, so it seems you're aware of your own straw-reaching to take pop shots at Nojima while agreeing that he's expanding on previously established themes of the series.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryushikaze

I assure you that I find your admiration for Nomura, Kitase, and company is at least as insane as you might find my dismissal of them.

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I don't give two flying smurfs about your dismissal of a development team, I think it's great that we have a place where people can intelligently put that on the table, but if you can't do that without ridiculing someone's ideas, you have no business being in a constructive discussion about it. I was under the impression you people banned posters for that. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I don't give two flying smurfs about your dismissal of a development team, I think it's great that we have a place where people can intelligently put that on the table, but if you can't do that without ridiculing someone's ideas, you have no business being in a constructive discussion about it. I was under the impression you people banned posters for that. :rolleyes2

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Considering the way you constantly talk down to others, are telling me to ban you? Because I'd be happy to oblige you.

>>> Im excited with this new FF (those new gameplay/battles looks like progress to me)..

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryushikaze

I assure you that I find your admiration for Nomura, Kitase, and company is at least as insane as you might find my dismissal of them.

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I don't give two flying smurfs about your dismissal of a development team, I think it's great that we have a place where people can intelligently put that on the table, but if you can't do that without ridiculing someone's ideas, you have no business being in a constructive discussion about it. I was under the impression you people banned posters for that. :rolleyes2

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I think anyone who's spent any real length of time at the fora would realize, or should realize that kishi has very strong opinions on things. Not always the popular opinion. So it shouldn't really be a huge surprise if he strongly disagrees with someone. Its not like he was calling Laddy stupid. He basically just said "are you kidding?"

I'm looking forward to the game. But the creators have stated themselves they want it to be like 7. Lightning was specifically designed to be a female Cloud

I don't pretend that FF has been anything ground breaking and revolutionary from a literary stand-point. But for me, the last FF I truly enjoyed was 7, for whatever reason. So hopefully this one will do what I've needed to enjoy the series again

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

RPGs don't really seem to get much coverage like they use to unless it has Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the title or if its part of Morrowind or made by Bioware.

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Dude, that's how our market economy works. Firms don't have enough resources to supplement every title with block-buster advertising, so they funnel the consumer to a select few titles while allowing the rest of the genre to serve as a long tail. It has nothing to do with the attitudes of average game players or the quality of mainstream nor obscure games.

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But this seems to be a poor system imho. It seems to much like putting all your eggs in one basket and it seriously sucks when games like X-2 and Crisis Core receive more attention than a deserving game like The World Ends With You which I have never heard any negative comments on and is generally regarded as one of the more underrated titles of this console generation.

SE has enough stuff to completely reintroduce Mana and Front Mission, two series that could easily become good franchises if they only released the games and then actually try to promote them. Front Mission 1 was ported to DS and I've yet to meet anyone who is actually aware of this. I feel SE is dropping the ball by relying too much on the FF/DQ/KH names alone.

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If Paris Hilton talked about Devil Summoner, X-Play gave it a 5/5, the fanboy idiots at Kotaku quoted its developers out of context (re: MGS4 is Not Revolutionary by Mike Fahey), and the localization team gave gameplay tutorials at Gametrailers, it would probably sell a million plus.

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I honestly don't think so, no one cares about Hilton or X-Play. Of anything, it may drive away consumers. Kotaku misquoting wouldn't be a big deal cause its not part of a world famous franchise so they could write their own directors commentary and only a few fans would ever know and make a ruckus. Atlus has advertised the game quite a bit, it got very high marks, lots of praise and yet it never makes real headlines cauyse too many people are more interested in the long standing world famous franchises.

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Side Note: Crackdown sold 1.5 million units, and pound for pound it's still a poor man's GTA so your example fails on two fronts.

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Its not that terrible, of anything its closer to GTA's roots than GTAIV was. :p Besides, we all know Saint's Row is the true "poor man's GTA". Crackdown sold well and has gotten stellar reviews but I don't hear people drumming for its sequel in anything that could be called anticipation. Let's face it, they bought it for the Halo 3 demo and enjoyed it cause it gave them their GTA fix for awhile.

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Man, I love CT so much, that entire chapter blew my mind, and that game was lightyears ahead of its time, but you pretty much summed it up in your own response. The title of the thread is "true series progress" not genre progress or platform progress, so it seems you're aware of your own straw-reaching to take pop shots at Nojima while agreeing that he's expanding on previously established themes of the series.

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But for a series known for "defining RPGs in terms of story, gameplay and visuals" its now supposedly "revolutioninzing" things by utilizing story elements that are tried and true. Besides, we don't even knowhow much of a role this exiling will really have on the story and whether we could put it on the same level of atrocity as CT's version (I won't even touch on Xenogears). For all we know, the exiles play a role for the first few hours and then that whole plot thread disappears once the Fa'Ciel stuff starts getting on (kinda like those slums in VII ;)). So in essence, we only have speculation at this point. Personally I don't see being exiled from the dictator run planetoid is a terribly bad thing.

The FF series always seems to put the kiddy gloves on when it comes to the heavy stuff. The Meaning of Life and identity of Vivi, the Yevon Faith, even the Archadian politics are all sorta like the watered down versions of other series who all happen to be owned by SE. How can a series get so much credit for storytelling and pushing boundaries in terms of plot and character when it seems like other series always do it before and generally better?

1. I'm not saying it's a great system or defending it. I'm just pointing out that things sell and fail for reasons irrespective to consumer tastes or quality.

2. G4 and Paris Hilton don't matter to gamers like us, in fact the majority of advertising spent on games, at least in genres we follow doesn't to us. It influences other kinds of gamers.

3. Even in Chrono Trigger, exploitation was one point in the story, just like the slums in FFVII, or like you're speculating about XIII.

4. I've come to find over the years that those same games you're implying use the same kiddie gloves, just to a lesser extent. Xenogears may be mindblowing, but games like FFVII and Metal Gear surprised me as well. They're not as far and away as you pretend they are.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

1. I'm not saying it's a great system or defending it. I'm just pointing out that things sell and fail for reasons irrespective to consumer tastes or quality.

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I understand, and I agree with you but I do feel that many of the major series are designed for a wider and somewhat more casual market in that they are designed for greater mass appeal. I'm still a bit miffed about the changes done to MGS4's gameplay...

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2. G4 and Paris Hilton don't matter to gamers like us, in fact the majority of advertising spent on games, at least in genres we follow doesn't to us. It influences other kinds of gamers.

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I seriously don't want to meet these people. Still I feel that several companies could get more out of some of their lesser known works if they just did more PR for them. Not to mention they don;t take hints like Capcom telling fans to stop asking about the next Breath of Fire or Squenix itself releasing a statement about no plans for a sequel to the Chrono series so please stop asking... I really wish I could meet some of their testers and focus groups.

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3. Even in Chrono Trigger, exploitation was one point in the story, just like the slums in FFVII, or like you're speculating about XIII.

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Yes, but it had a resolution, which VII did not. We actually get to see some conclusion to this ordeal whereas we never really get to see such a thing in VII. They could have at least kept up the theme in the story to the end. Not even with the Compilation, this theme is pretty much gone and forgotten.

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4. I've come to find over the years that those same games you're implying use the same kiddie gloves, just to a lesser extent. Xenogears may be mindblowing, but games like FFVII and Metal Gear surprised me as well. They're not as far and away as you pretend they are.

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Ok... you are going to have to tell me how Xenogears uses kiddie gloves. This I would like to hear ;)

In general, I find that PR is bad for the entire gaming industry, though it has been improving slowly over time.

In one of the animated stories that came with my Advent Children Complete, Denzel actually talks quite a bit about the opression of the slums. Denzel had come from the plate and was friends with a boy from the slums after the fall, until they had a falling out over the prejudices.

Well hot damn, someone remembered for the Compilation. That's news to me but I have not seen AC Complete.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well hot damn, someone remembered for the Compilation. That's news to me but I have not seen AC Complete.

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See it. It's such a great improvement from the original - almost felt like a different movie.

Regarding CT and VII, VII's ending was open-ended, but even then it was given further conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Ok... you are going to have to tell me how Xenogears uses kiddie gloves. This I would like to hear ;)

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Kiddie gloves is your term... all I'm saying is that while arguably more extreme than its contemporaries, Xenogears still looks like a Disney movie compared to the Three Penny Opera or Baal.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well hot damn, someone remembered for the Compilation. That's news to me but I have not seen AC Complete.

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See it. It's such a great improvement from the original - almost felt like a different movie.

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I may have to. I didn't care for AC as a sequel but I'm willing to give it another go if they made progress in telling an improved story.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Regarding CT and VII, VII's ending was open-ended, but even then it was given further conclusion.

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My problem is that I never saw it that way. I never felt it was treated like an open ended commentary. I felt the "deep" elements were all done in the first disc and even then, in the first 20 hours only and the rest of the game sorta felt like the typical RPG stuff I'm used to. I never felt it was written that way, it had an open ended ending but for me and many, I don't feel it was really the philosophy it tried to convey that was important by the end rather than the characters themselves...

If we are giving credit to VII for having some form of social commentary whether its complete or not; I feel its only fair to give credit to games that pre-date VII that did the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Ok... you are going to have to tell me how Xenogears uses kiddie gloves. This I would like to hear ;)

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Kiddie gloves is your term... all I'm saying is that while arguably more extreme than its contemporaries, Xenogears still looks like a Disney movie compared to the Three Penny Opera or Baal.

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Well, its not exactly fair to compare Xenogears to Theatrical playwrights. They have been doing this game longer... I doubt I could come up with too many films that could equal to some of the greater Off Broadway plays.

Then I'll ask you to indulge me a bit more and please explain how you feel CT, VII, and Xenogears are not as great of a dramatic departure from each other in terms of social commentary. ;)

I'm actually really stoked for this game. From watching the trailers, it seems like they're setting up a world that is really "Xenosaga-ish". I'm not really interested in the main character, but Hope, Vanille, and the afro dude seem like promising additions. :)

All I will say is that Snow has the most atrocious character design I can recall. Ever. I want to punch him. A lot. With a baseball bat. 90% of it is fine but it's just that smurfING HAIR that riles me :mad2:

I disagree with the original proposition that FFXIII is less anime-esque than the others. However it would be no surprise if they are trying to make it appealing across a broader international audience; Japan's videogame industry as a whole is feeling quite threatened by others right now.

I have always thought that people on Eizon are way too tough to please when it comes to FF. Theres hardly any gaming discussion going on in this forum as it is. Ive been a member since 2003 but was browsing for years before that and I still remember everyone disliking the look of every Final Fantasy that was coming out at the time.

For a website thats dedicated to the series, one that has always been about trying something new each time, this forum is remarkably reluctant when it comes to change, and probaly the one that talks the LEAST about Final Fantasy, even compared to general gaming forums.

Say what you want about Nomura, I think the characters looks intriguing and fantastic, and the game looks pretty neat so far too.

Now everyone can go ahead and flame me. :)

Well to be fair Croyles, FF is a bit different from other game series cause each entry is practically a stand alone title in its own right. Due to this, FF probably has the largest and most diverse amount of fans cause there is most likely a game here you are going to like. On the flip-side, you will probably see some things you don't want to see either. Due to its popularity you get a wonderful assortment of fanboys, trolls, and fanboy-trolls.

For these reasons I don't really get the fuss about people voicing a complaint and not jumping up for joy for every little thing with FF in the title. Though it would be good to hear more positive comments but it just seems like people are indifferent or are unwilling to express their proper feelings.

As for Nomura, he's too "pop" for my taste and I generally prefer his more anime style over his realistic looks. I think the last game he did I really enjoyed was TWEWY cause for once his designs actually fit in and didn't look out of place in context of the world.

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Originally Posted by Croyles

I have always thought that people on Eizon are way too tough to please when it comes to FF. Theres hardly any gaming discussion going on in this forum as it is. Ive been a member since 2003 but was browsing for years before that and I still remember everyone disliking the look of every Final Fantasy that was coming out at the time.

For a website thats dedicated to the series, one that has always been about trying something new each time, this forum is remarkably reluctant when it comes to change, and probaly the one that talks the LEAST about Final Fantasy, even compared to general gaming forums.

Say what you want about Nomura, I think the characters looks intriguing and fantastic, and the game looks pretty neat so far too.

Now everyone can go ahead and flame me. :)

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I dunno. I was a member of a forum for one of my other favorite RPG series: Shining Force. Though there were plenty more Shiny games than just the Force ones. And long ago they were really good. And as Sega is typical to do, they had to ruin that by changing the series. Phantasy Star went through a ruining too. And don't even have to mention Sonic. But that's just Sega's ways. And Square isn't nearly as bad as Sega. But I think its healthy for fans to voice a dislike. Nintendo's changed Mario a lot over the years. But they respect that some people enjoyed old Mario and have taken to giving those people simpler more respectable games along with their revamping

I haven't liked the roads Final Fantasy has been going in recent years. I never finished 10 and barely even go into 12. Had to force myself to beat 8 and 9. Seemed like chores. Though I'm certainly no fanboy. It had nothing to do with "oh this is nothing like FF##, it doesn't feel Final Fantasy enough". Because I didn't really like Final Fantasy 5 either xD or 2 or 3 for that matter... I just couldn't get into the directions they're going lately. But then again. I don't think I'm the type of person you're talking about anyway :]

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

As for Nomura, he's too "pop" for my taste and I generally prefer his more anime style over his realistic looks. I think the last game he did I really enjoyed was TWEWY cause for once his designs actually fit in and didn't look out of place in context of the world.

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When it comes to art (as opposed to character design) I certainly prefer Nomura over Amano, but then I would prefer feces smeared on solidifed plates of feces to Amano.

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

As for Nomura, he's too "pop" for my taste and I generally prefer his more anime style over his realistic looks. I think the last game he did I really enjoyed was TWEWY cause for once his designs actually fit in and didn't look out of place in context of the world.

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When it comes to art (as opposed to character design) I certainly prefer Nomura over Amano, but then I would prefer feces smeared on solidifed plates of feces to Amano.

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...you don't like everyone looking like anorexic porcelain dolls?!

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Originally Posted by Vyk

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

As for Nomura, he's too "pop" for my taste and I generally prefer his more anime style over his realistic looks. I think the last game he did I really enjoyed was TWEWY cause for once his designs actually fit in and didn't look out of place in context of the world.

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When it comes to art (as opposed to character design) I certainly prefer Nomura over Amano, but then I would prefer feces smeared on solidifed plates of feces to Amano.

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...you don't like everyone looking like anorexic porcelain dolls?!

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Lol, so I guess its a choice between anorexic porcelain dolls and androgynous emo kids. :)

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9909/ughu.gif

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Originally Posted by The Space Pope

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9909/ughu.gif

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Old news.

Plus if I remember correctly, he was told to make a female Cloud, so its no surprise she ended up that way

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Originally Posted by Croyles

I have always thought that people on Eizon are way too tough to please when it comes to FF. Theres hardly any gaming discussion going on in this forum as it is. Ive been a member since 2003 but was browsing for years before that and I still remember everyone disliking the look of every Final Fantasy that was coming out at the time.

For a website thats dedicated to the series, one that has always been about trying something new each time, this forum is remarkably reluctant when it comes to change, and probaly the one that talks the LEAST about Final Fantasy, even compared to general gaming forums.

Say what you want about Nomura, I think the characters looks intriguing and fantastic, and the game looks pretty neat so far too.

Now everyone can go ahead and flame me. :)

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I think you hit the nail on the head, given the nature of Final Fantasy it's pretty odd that complainers (i'm guilty of this) have chosen this as a series to discuss on a forum. Also, judging a game before its release is more preposterous than ever this generation. Any 360/PS3/HD PC Gamer (recent) can attest that cut scenes are no longer better looking than actual gameplay. Seeing everything in motion and reacting to you in real time gameplay means you can't possibly know what a game's exactly like until the controllers in your hand. And now we have games like inFAMOUS, where watching gameplay videos themselves don't cut it either, you have to see how smooth the gameplay and animations are for yourself to appreciate just how good it really is.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I dunno. I was a member of a forum for one of my other favorite RPG series: Shining Force.

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I can relate 100% to that, but there's a stark difference to what Sega did with Shining Force and Square has done with FF. The original series is no more, after Camelot left it was open season on branding every RPG they made with the title "Shining Force" with no continuity (which it had) or adherence to the genres it helped pioneer. With Final Fantasy, you can expect 3-4 member parties, some variation of turn based combat, with all the monster archetypes you love, and some kind of apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic struggle for the life force of a planet. A lot of people who worked on the original games are still involved, and I guess all I can say is I'm sorry you didn't like any of the games since VII apparently.

But like Croyle's said, this is Final Fantasy, you gotta be prepared to see something different each time. Whether or not you actually like it, all bets are off.