If you doubt it, you'll have to go through me. :colbert:
Discuss why it's the superior game out of the other titles. :cool:
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If you doubt it, you'll have to go through me. :colbert:
Discuss why it's the superior game out of the other titles. :cool:
Because it distracts those annoying fanboys from bothering the clearly superior FFVI crowd.
Because Fonz told me it was true. (It has a unique magic system? :confused:)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e2...c104-ss012.jpg
Scrooooooooge!
Squall is the single greatest case of character development I have ever seen IMO. And I can relate to him on certain aspects.
It also has a great attention to subtle details.
http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m...off/zell01.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
Rinoa's perky boobs.
Badass music.
ftwQuote:
Originally Posted by trancekuja
You crazy. IX is the best thing out there.
I saw "Final Fantasy 8 is the best..." from the forums index and could only hope the conclusion was "frisbee" or "paperweight." Alas.
This being my favorite FF title doesn't preclude me from liking many of the others in the series.
That being said, I liked the characters, even (gasp!) Cid. I liked all the leads, Squall Rinoa, Quistis, even Selphie and Zell. And I can't begin to describe how much I loved Edea. I even liked Ultimecia, although I felt her backstory needed more details.
I liked the design and look of the world, the monsters, the GFs. Of all the fictional worlds in the FF universe, this is the one I'd actually like to live in. I've never seen better renditions of the summons.
The music is great. This is my favorite FF soundtrack to listen to, although there are others I like as well.
Despite some hate lavished upon both Triple Triad and the junction system I found both very addictive and fun to play with.
The plot has a lot of issues. I found the characters' journey emotionally satisfying even if not always logical (just how did Laguna's purchases in the flashback end up in the party inventory?), so I can forgive it of the many flaws in this area.
I can't say how much I loved Diablos' Enc-None. I love the freedom to level up in random encounters when I want to, and it's a shame that the series rarely lets you do that (FFVI Moogle Charm being an exception).
VII is my fave but in terms of music 8 is :)
any case I will be making a walk through story based soon.
YouTube - Final Fantasy 8 Quality Test HQ - Deling Parade
That is a tester of the PC with beta mod driver. So there are a few bugs but as you can see graphic wise it is superior to PSX and other vids online :)
FFVIII is the best because of it's character development, music, the junction system, triple triad, the story, it's world, etc. etc. etc. (!!)
In fact, I could spend days going on about my little obsession with VIII, but I'll simmer it down for now. But still, I've always said it's the greatest game I've ever played, and it always will be.
*pushes Fonz over*
Also...
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
Personally, I absolutely LOVE the junction system, and the story was well made but I somehow find it a little odd near the end(I only made it to Adel I think), but I think that the first disk(minus Laguna flashbacks:mad:) was really really good and fun. The second disk was well made(minus the district prison and the same looking floors:mad::mad:) and is also very good! I don't like how Rinoa become the sorceress however, and I really hate the orphanage scene, with the team at the basketball court:mad::mad::mad:
Triple Triad is a really fun game, and the many other sidequests, such as Odin's and the research facility, are extremely well made, and also very fun.
I do not, however, like the leveling system. Although I am not completely against the "Mosters leveling with you" design, I do wish that being a low level would still make it harder, and you would have to both level and junction correctly to be strong throughout the game.
Selphie is the best from this game.
http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/images/ff8/selphie2.png
While FFVIII was far from my favourate FF (I didn't like most things about the game compared to others in the series), I have to say that the Triple Triad game made up for many of the dislikes I had about the game.
It is easily my favourate mini game from any FF...maybe Blitzball from X being a close second.
Yeah who gets developed other than Squall, Rinoa, and questionably Laguna?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle*pushes Fonz over*
Also...
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
Raaawwwrrrr!
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7905/ff8ultima.jpg
/Artwork made by black orb!
I wouldn't really say FF8 is "the best" FF, but it certainly got the coolest and most badass looking boss (Ultima Weapon) in like... any RPG ever.:greenie:
...also, the final form of the final boss has a more "epic feeling" to it than the other final bosses in the FF series. And, of course, there's "Triple Triad".
You mean the stupid chick with the steer horns for hair?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow
Yeah, that's the one. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Man with teh Machina gun ftw~
But no, I like X-2 "International" + Last Mission and VI more xD!
FFVII rules because I grew up with it therefore it is the BEST.
/bias
It's superior to other FF games in terms of referencing Charlie Brown.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...015MrBrown.jpg
Tifa's sexy boobs. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by trancekuja
I'll post why I disagree with you -
Plot
For one, I'm a bigger fan of Medieval settings then I am of more modern-ish ones like VIII had. VIII's world didn't feel very believable compared to VII and IX's. Ultimecia's Time Kompression just felt boring even after a mediocre villain like sephiroth. Another strike against VIII is that it has one of the most facepalm-worthy plot points of any JRPG I've played -
(SPOILER)"Oh hey, we all actually knew eachother from our childhood together in this orphanage, but competely forgot it because We've been using GFs!" If it had been hinted at through the game up to the point through party dialogue, or even had more and more clues dropped about possible negative side effects of Guardian Force junctioning, it'd probably have been a nice, dark twist to the plot, especially if it were expanded upon afterwards. Instead, we got something along the lines of: "GF must've destroyed our memories! Let's keep using GF!" and then nothing is spoken of it again.
Characters
The supporting party characters (read: people not named Squall or Rinoa) more or less spoke with the same voice. Aside from their brief introductory bits, they never really felt like individuals to me.
And, even as a semi-angsty teenager myself, Seifer never felt legitimate to me. He's just too obvious and ham-fisted for me to take seriously. Maybe that's the point, but I remember loathing his appearances in the game when I played it a decade ago.
Irvine has pretty much no development after the first disc, and the rest of his character basically amounts to "Hey dude, you think I gotta chance with Selphie?" "Hey, I think I'm making some progress on Selphie" "Man, I'm totally getting shut down by Selphie" "Dude, stop hogging all the hotties, atleast give me Selphie!"
The cast basically stopped acting as a group after disk 1. Quistis got it even worse, she was barely relevant after Squall became a SeeD, and that happens about two hours into the game. Selphie got a section at Trabia and at the Garden Festival, so she probably came out of it with the most screen time; Zell got the whole thing with the Balamb infiltration. Other than that it was all Rinoa and Squall.
VIII had a lot of wasted opportunity. With such a small cast they could have really focused on the characters and made it a very interesting and personal story of a small group of young people, and up until the end of disk 1 it looked like that was what we were going to get. But then disk 2 was spent with half the group separated, and after disk 3 began it all just went to :bou::bou::bou::bou:.
Ironically enough, IX pulled it off much better, even though it had more characters and about half of them weren't very relevant (Freya, Amarant, Quina). At its heart it was about Zidane, Garnet, and Vivi, and it does it incredibly well. Steiner is also pretty well-developed, but he's definitely a supporting character, albeit a well-done one (good in his own right, believable, but the story really isn't "about" him).
Battle System
Outside of the Obvious ATB system -
1) The summoning system in VIII is too useful. If you overused it the battles became very repetitive. It even got annoying at times. The fact they were just as strong as standard FF summons, but without any cost broke the game in a way.
2) The Junction/Draw system in VIII was annoying. Magic was pretty worthless in general, but say I junctioned my Curaga to Spirit or something. If I used a Curaga spell, my spirit stat would go down because I've used one of the spells thats being junctioned -_- Or you could go the reverse and junction 100 death to your weapon and have insta-kill abilities.
Graphics & Soundtrack
The closest game to compare it to would be IX. Graphically theyre both about on Par with eachother, though I would say IX edges out slightly ahead. VIII goes for a more realistic style while IX opted for a more cartoony style, and because of that IX has aged a slight bit better. It also has more impressive prerendered backgrounds imo.
I was never terribly impressed with VIII's soundtrack outside of a few select songs (Ultimecia's castle and Man with the machine gun to name a couple).
Over all, It's definitely a pretty game, but I think it falls flat in many areas. It's more pretentious than artistic, IMO, and a lot of it feels forced. It doesn't help that the game's seminal moment is home to one of the most grating songs I've ever heard.
I have the UW action figure. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow
i completely agree with Zerokku, very well made points
With Squall & Rinoa being the main leads, their character development was what mattered mostly. I've never played a game where I understood a character as much as Squall, with his motives, emotions.. everything really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonYeah who gets developed other than Squall, Rinoa, and questionably Laguna?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle*pushes Fonz over*
Also...
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
First of all, if that's honestly the case you need to play more RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket EdgeWith Squall & Rinoa being the main leads, their character development was what mattered mostly. I've never played a game where I understood a character as much as Squall, with his motives, emotions.. everything really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonYeah who gets developed other than Squall, Rinoa, and questionably Laguna?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle*pushes Fonz over*
Also...
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
Second of all, really now? Cause I never understood why Squall went from being cold to and annoyed by rinoa to loving her undyingly almost instantaneously. Its like they thought, Oh :bou::bou::bou::bou: this is supposed to be a love story hurry and make him change before the game is over!
Thirdly, note my point when talking about the characters on the previous page. With such a small cast of characters they could had some great development outside of squall and rinoa, but instead we end up with characters that are almost as bad as the legions in chrono cross. And even with just the main characters, IX still managed more impressive character development, and thats with a larger "ensemble" cast.
Even when talking about Squall and Rinoa, the character development was still incredibly bad; and this isn't just me being biased, I enjoyed playing the game, but from a text book standpoint it was just very bad. One of the most important things about character acting and narrative is that they should have the principle of empathy - something that is incredibly foggy throughout the whole game with all characters including Squall and Rinoa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket EdgeWith Squall & Rinoa being the main leads, their character development was what mattered mostly. I've never played a game where I understood a character as much as Squall, with his motives, emotions.. everything really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonYeah who gets developed other than Squall, Rinoa, and questionably Laguna?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle*pushes Fonz over*
Also...
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
In other words, you clearly have no concept of character development.
In my opinion; maybe the weak personality filled with angst that Squall had appealed to me when I was 12 years old, but after growing up a bit I honestly feel he's a very childish character.
Originally Posted by Zerokku
I exactly know what Squall felt there ; It's just like real life ,when you have somthing, you never realise what you have , but when you lost somthing you suddenly realize that how much you have been attached to it and how much you miss it now that it's gone, and sometimes that makes you make sudden decisions and sometimes change your ways to prevent such losses in the future .Quote:
Second of all, really now? Cause I never understood why Squall went from being cold to and annoyed by rinoa to loving her undyingly almost instantaneously. Its like they thought, Oh :bou::bou::bou::bou: this is supposed to be a love story hurry and make him change before the game is over!
The obvious explanation is that Squall Leonheart is a closet necrophiliac.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takero
it's really simple so simple people obviously overlook it, and it is simply Squall is afraid of getting close to anyone so he fights it untill, like Takero said, he didn't wanna acknowledge how much Rinoa (and the others) meant to him untill he thaught there may be a chance she was gone for good... he is so afraid of loss that he tries to distance himself from others emotionaly, it's a dissassociative disorder, i went through the same thing in my teen years (and still a little bit to this day) so i understand where the character of Squall is coming from... and i have to agree this game has better/more character development than most of the Old-School FFs, 'cept maybe FFVI, those that deny it just don't get it and thats okay, i guess you have to go through an emotional rolorcoster simmilar to Squalls in order to really get what the writers were doing, don't just judge by the surface but look deeper at the foundation and it becomes apparent why the surface looks the way it does...
First of all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elly
*snip*
Second of all, Of course it has better characterization than games that have characters with no personality *snip*. That doesn't excuse its god awful characterization for its time. Hell IV and VI are both "old school" FFs and have better characterization and development than VIII.
Thirdly, even if that is the case, it does not absolve that event of how poorly written and handled it was, nor does it absolve VIII of its many many numerous other faults.
Don't personally attack other members of this forum. ~Zeromus
I agree that the character devlopment of squall was done very very well. people seem to hate squall because he comes across as an idiot, but that is the point. he is a sociopath and it is a story showing his evolution back into a person who can love instead of a person who fears loss (which he first experienced when ellone "sis" left the orphanage).
The character was not 1 dimensional, and as long as the main characters have a background and a story and are explored it is bound to be good.
There is only so much you can do with a script. How much character devlopment did Yuffie, Cait, Vincent get? Pretty much 0. (and ff's before 7 were woeful imho)
The story revolves around the main main characters and so they are further analyzed, whereas the other characters are delved into.
edit: XII had absolutely no character development or decent story which is why it sucked ;)
True, I do. I can count how many I've played with my two hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerokku
You need to understand that Squall developed feelings for Rinoa when she was taken away from him (I'm almost sure of this, I haven't played the game in years). Something like this can easily trigger emotions in a very swift fashion. I can personally atest to this. Hell, I'm betting so can most people.Quote:
Second of all, really now? Cause I never understood why Squall went from being cold to and annoyed by rinoa to loving her undyingly almost instantaneously. Its like they thought, Oh :bou::bou::bou::bou: this is supposed to be a love story hurry and make him change before the game is over!
Although I agree that more could have been done with the secondary characters in VIII, saying IX had better character development doesn't make it fact. VIII dealt with more characters than IX to my understanding, with Laguna and the world generations previously. In conclusion, there is characters I know alot better in VIII, and vice versa with IX, & I think I'll just leave it at that. I will say however, that the antagonists were a poor match-up, with Kuja being obviously the more in-depth villian.Quote:
Thirdly, note my point when talking about the characters on the previous page. With such a small cast of characters they could had some great development outside of squall and rinoa, but instead we end up with characters that are almost as bad as the legions in chrono cross. And even with just the main characters, IX still managed more impressive character development, and thats with a larger "ensemble" cast.
I personally like how it played out. I thought the way their feelings were potrayed and acted out seemed genuine, and the course of the story played out fluidly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
Your ignorance shines through like your native sun. I think you need to chill out. Just because I like the characters & how the story went, it doesn't make me wrong. Same would be said if I said you were incorrect about liking ice cream, it's not my opinion, it's yours. :roll2Quote:
In other words, you clearly have no concept of character development.
Does that make me, and many other FF fans immature (or childish) for liking his character then?Quote:
In my opinion; maybe the weak personality filled with angst that Squall had appealed to me when I was 12 years old, but after growing up a bit I honestly feel he's a very childish character.
Zerokku: Do not refer to anyone on this board as a moronic twit! If you cannot debate nicely, gtfo of this thread.
EDIT: Sorry, Zero. Didn't see you there with your bright white font. :)
Guys, this is not the place to debate whether FFVIII is good or bad. There have been myriads of threads covering that, and you could even start a new one if you wanted. I would even be on the side asserting that the game is largely a joyless, amateurish odyssey into mediocrity!
But this thread is for talking about why you love it. That's all it's for.
Except that if someone is making such a ridiculous claim, shouldn't we be able to discuss why they're wrong, bringing up point for point the faults like I did on the previous page? Its not much of a discussion if everyone is just saying "yah its good and heres why" especially when those reasons why tend to be full of it/invalid when compared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
Not to mention he pretty much welcomed it in the first post with saying "If you doubt it, you'll have to go through me."
(And to the mods, sorry for the insults, I have a tendency to be a bit of an arrogant asshole, I know =/ I try and refrain most of the time, but I can let things slip)
-----
Back to the discussion at hand
Except hes right. By all means like the characters. Theres no problem with that. But don't say they were well written and developed when they were not, as that is objectively false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Edge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerokku
Really? You're going with "I am right and they are wrong, and I have to teach them the truth"? I have to tell you, that's not going to fly.Quote:
By all means like the characters. Theres no problem with that. But don't say they were well written and developed when they were not, as that is objectively false.
As long as its providing actual discussion rather than everyone being in agreement and not actually discussing anything/ a poll thread, why not? Particularly when they're welcoming it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
You can have a discussion without an outright dispute. I'm surprised you'd refute this. The feel-good vibration of this thread also makes it unique and valuable, and I'd sooner start deleting your posts than close it.
So, you know, watch for that.
This is like talking to a wall. Opinion isn't fact here. I like the game, I like the characters, I like the writing, & that's my opinion. In a thread where we give positive views about a game, commenting on someone's outlook saying it's right or wrong is just way off, not to mention ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerokku
I don't think ignorant is the word you're searching for there.
At any rate, pay attention. I don't do this very often. "Do what, Ouch!?" you might ask. "Say positive things about FFVIII, of course!" I would respond.
Aside from the awful grinding involved, I enjoy the battle system, which is fairly rare for a game which doesn't diversify characters (I'm typically not a fan of games in which the characters are carbon copies of one another besides a few special skills and minor base stat discrepancies). Although it tended to be very, very easily broken, the Junction System was actually pretty fun.
Also, Triple Triad rocks my world. I freaking love this game.
well, Ouch! that's where most new players of the game mess up, if there's one thing you don't wanna do in FFVIII it's grinding, it's what messes most people up in this game i know it got me the first time... the way it's designed is so the enemies lvl up with Squall making grinding for EXP a bad thing especialy by the end, i think they actualy wanted the player to cruise through this titles story line, something i don't normaly do since i'm a power leveler, so i have to fight my instincts on this title... usualy the best route is to just brease through it untill you get the Garden Transport System mobile or the Ragnarok so you can get to the islands that give more AP than EXP, bofore that things like Fastlicalcon F is the best way to get AP more than EXP... this system of enemies lvling with you is what turned me off of FFTactics, except unlike FFTactics you actualy get some kind of advantage right away in the form of GFs & Junction... though grinding could efectively be a way of making this game more challenging to those that normaly breeze through an FF title's story forsaking active leveling... actualy my only complaint really would be this one does not let me power level without consequence, other than that i love just about everything else about FFVIII...
It amuses me that you assume I'm unaware of The Islands Closest to Heaven and Hell, among other things you've mentioned in your post. Drawing 100 of each magic as it becomes available was the grind I was referring to. When it comes to video games, I seem to develop some form of OCD involving items in my inventory (multiples of five or nothing) and that carries over to para-magic in FFVIII.
FFVIII is the easiest game in the series to reach level 100. The level grind in the game is obscenely easy by comparison to just about any other title I've ever played. I've yet to find that the enemies scaling up with me makes the game significantly more difficult. At any level, proper junctioning of spells absolutely breaks the game. Beyond that, abuse of the Triple Triad allows for even more stupidly powerful characters. Modded cards eventually end up in the inventories of the CC members on the Ragnarok on Disc 4, so you can mod and win the card over and over again. A limit of 10 Holy Wars? Hahaha, I think not.
nah, i didn't assume you didn't know about them but felt the need to mention them for those that don't (newbies reading this thread for the first time and such)... i get what ya mean by the grind now though, collecting 100 of every spell i come across before getting all the card skills or even cards can become a bit tedious and thus a grind, i gotcha... i don't think they really intended for us to play it that way but power levelers will do what they must to gain as much power as possible before moving on...
I'm the kind of guy who likes to teach Siren Item Refine just so I can turn tents into Curagas for junctioning purposes before I even leave Balamb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
I'd take you down town in a game of TT....if it were real of course.
I am so glad I'm not the only one who thought this when I saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny
The two things I love the most out of FFVIII was Squall and Laguna who had really good character development and both rank as some of my top heroes in the series. I feel when you focus the plot solely on Squall and Laguna and their relation to other people (basically ignore the Time traveling BS or the idea the plot is about the "Grand Romance" between Squall and Rinoa) then you can see how very strong the story really is. Its buried in a lot of crap, but these tales are where I feel the title really shines.
My other favorite thing was just the sheer ambition of the game. Following up the smash success of VII, Square easily could have copy/pasted and released VIII as a VII clone with better graphics and a different plot but instead they went in and decided to change the way we looked at RPGs and redefine the whole genre. Granted, I don't think VIII succeeded in this goal but I have to give them props for having the guts to do this. Stealing magic, Summons that act like equipment and skills? A sci-fi story told in what feels like a world not too far from our own (minus Esthar)? I feel VIII really tried to push all RPG conventions we thought of at the time and even if non of its ideas became new RPG staples, it did change how we thought about the genre.
I'm not sure if people who started in the PS1 generation can really understand what I mean here. The game was rather mind blowing for those of us who started in the 8/16-bit era's. At the time a lot of the genre was set in stone and I feel VIII made it ok to explore a bit more on what the genre could do.
I'd argue agains the whole, a world not to far from our own' statement, but it's really hard do, I just couldn't get that feeling from the game. It's probably because the people in it felt so far devoid of what people are like, the overall world just felt out of place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Anyway, I don't get how you can like a game for it's ambition. What one should like it for is the end result, not what the game intended to become, especially when it fails.
I disagree on the not of Squall as well. I do with Laguna, but to a lesser extent.
My beef with saying you should focus on Squalls interactions with people, his interactions are the same across the board. It's always his distancing from people, in every case. Focusing on just that aspect of the story, you only see one side of squalls personality. For that matter, even in the grander scheme of things, you always see that side of his personality. Squall, and the rest of the cast, is painted as as extremely onesided characters. No matter how good the premise of a character driven plot it won't be good if the characters driving it are no good.
Now, Laguna is probably the best developed character in the game. YOu see multiple sides of his personality through his interactions with people, something I can't say for the rest of the cast. Which is sad, cause I found Laguna himself generally unlikeable regardless of this fact. Though perhaps had they given the rest of the cast the same though in a multi-layered personality, I'd be able to agree with your assessment.
Though my main reason for responding is mention that you do not speak for me, as I started on the 16 bit era, and FF VIII was far from Mind blowing, in every respect. (Except for graphics and Rinoa's hotness.)
The GF system had some decent Ideas to it, the ability to augment your character by combining him with a GF. However, the FF VIII system took it to far, making it like FF VII in the fact it didn't matter which characters you used, the GF's were what made them exactly what they were. If the GF's were used more like Augments, as the Guardians of Wild Arms 2 were, the system would have been much better.
However, I will give this game a few deserved props.
The first thing that comes to mind is a lot of the Music of FF VIII was remarkable. Not near a big a fan as eyes on me as most, but so long as I'm not paying attention to the words, it's a decent listen, but the rest of the game had much better music.
Another thing I liked were some character designs. Irvine, while not really fitting in well with the world, had a very awesome design I'd say. You'd see him and believe he was a Sniper, yet he manages to pull off a sort of old west-like look, which one wouldn't really associate with a sniper. Rinoa's outfit was also rather stunning as well.
And finally, the card game. I hate that damned thing with a passion, though had it not been for FF VIII starting that trend, we wouldn't be blessed with the amazingly deep and awesome cardgame of Xenosaga III. :love:
I only feel this way cause many of the outfits seem placed in our own time. Zell's outfit alone be a reference to a growing fashion trend at the time. I feel most of the cast could walk down the street and not be terribly out of place. The architecture of several of the locations are also taken from many modern places. Dollet, Galbadia, Winhill, and even parts of Balamb (mostly the dock) look like real places in the world. Galbadia looks like my downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Many of these elements always gave me that "not far in the future" jive you hear to describe other semi-sci-fi (can I grammatically do that?) that you see all the time in that genre. I think it's only when you deal with Garden, Esthar, the Prison, and the abandoned structures that you see more of the otherworldly in that game. Even Garden looks somewhat normal once you get inside. Its interior is not far fetch from modern design.
Lots of things look good on paper and though I feel VIII has some broken gameplay, I never felt it detracted from the game enough to make it and non enjoyable experience (that would be FFX). The game is flawed but I never felt it was so terrible that I was miserable playing the game. Its for that reason that I can enjoy its ambition but say "its suck it didn't come together". Oddly enough its hardly its gameplay I strongly dislike as much as its plot and character development. I also only say VIII failed cause it hardly changed the genre except in terms of graphics and audio.Quote:
Anyway, I don't get how you can like a game for it's ambition. What one should like it for is the end result, not what the game intended to become, especially when it fails.
Squall himself is complex though and I feel you may be glossing over that. Squall's interactions are amusing cause he generally says one thing and does another, exploring his inner thought we see he's more than just a jerk. He's actually quite complex and incredibly smart. He does his best to push people away but in his mind you listen to him try to justify it. He meets different people with different values and tries desperately to hold onto his own. You watch him slowly grow out of his defenses and begin to open up to other people. Its well done in my book.Quote:
My beef with saying you should focus on Squalls interactions with people, his interactions are the same across the board. It's always his distancing from people, in every case. Focusing on just that aspect of the story, you only see one side of squalls personality. For that matter, even in the grander scheme of things, you always see that side of his personality. Squall, and the rest of the cast, is painted as as extremely one-sided characters. No matter how good the premise of a character driven plot it won't be good if the characters driving it are no good.
As for the other characters, yes, I do agree they are all two dimensional and it was sad to see that since many of them see interesting. I feel the story could have gotten further had they put a little more thought into the rest of the cast. Though I do love the humor caused by VIII having one of the happiest and most optimistic casts who bounce back and forth with Squall's moody, serious attitude. :D
How can you not like Laguna? He's hilarious and his hopeless romanticism make him so charming. He's not far from characters like Locke and Zidane. Yes he's a bit of an idiot but that's where his humor comes in cause his relationship with Ward and Kiros is so amusing. He literally just stumbles along through life and somehow always manages to stay on top. His pursuit of his dreams made him interesting and though he near accomplished all the things he wanted in life, one can say he did more than he himself had thought was possible. He's really one of the most interesting characters in the game and I'm always surprised how often people forget about him.Quote:
Now, Laguna is probably the best developed character in the game. YOu see multiple sides of his personality through his interactions with people, something I can't say for the rest of the cast. Which is sad, cause I found Laguna himself generally unlikeable regardless of this fact. Though perhaps had they given the rest of the cast the same though in a multi-layered personality, I'd be able to agree with your assessment.
Fair enough and I apologize. For me it was to a certain extent though perhaps even "mind blowing" may be too strong of a word. More like pleasantly amused. ;)Quote:
Though my main reason for responding is mention that you do not speak for me, as I started on the 16 bit era, and FF VIII was far from Mind blowing, in every respect. (Except for graphics and Rinoa's hotness.)
There is a lot of issues with the battle system but as I said, despite its munchkin-ness, I still had fun with it cause it was so radically different. Magic played a different role, acquiring it was amusing. The GF summons were very impressive the first time round... 80th time not so much but oh well... The syste was far from perfect but at least the game attempts to balance it out unlike other titles I could mention *cough*FFX*cough* with the leveling system and the end game bosses having auto kill GF abilities and the ability to eliminate magic.Quote:
The GF system had some decent Ideas to it, the ability to augment your character by combining him with a GF. However, the FF VIII system took it to far, making it like FF VII in the fact it didn't matter which characters you used, the GF's were what made them exactly what they were. If the GF's were used more like Augments, as the Guardians of Wild Arms 2 were, the system would have been much better.
Here I will disagree cause I find VIII's soundtrack to be mostly forgettable except for Eyes on Me and Libereli Fatali (sp?).Quote:
However, I will give this game a few deserved props.
The first thing that comes to mind is a lot of the Music of FF VIII was remarkable. Not near a big a fan as eyes on me as most, but so long as I'm not paying attention to the words, it's a decent listen, but the rest of the game had much better music.
You're dead to me Neo Cracker... Triple Triad is like the best mini-game of all the FFs:pQuote:
And finally, the card game. I hate that damned thing with a passion, though had it not been for FF VIII starting that trend, we wouldn't be blessed with the amazingly deep and awesome cardgame of Xenosaga III. :love:
Please, Hot n' Cold is far more epic. EPIC!
How can you even compare Laguna to Squall and Zidane? I know this line has become highly overused between the two of us by this point, but you are dead to me as well. :(
I'll avoid complaining about Laguna again though. :p
And having played through FF VIII, Squall really doesn't seem to slowly come out of his shell. It's a long, drawn out process, that just kind of happens all at once at one point. And, throughout the game, he does what you say, pushes people away and tries to justify it in his head. But that's basically all he does. His entire focus was on that one aspect of his personality, and that's hardly a deep character to me.
When an SNES game, within the first portion of the game, can add more to a character then the entirety of FF VIII did for Squall, then they have failed on a massive level. I'd start siting examples, but I have not the time. :p
And on one final note, that damned Draw system is something that I hope, in the remainder of my life, will never be put into another game. It was not 'amusing'. It was mindless busy work.
The better part of me is saying not to bother, but here goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
What ambition are you talking about? Could you please give us better examples of what you mean?
Stealing magic is a rare mechanic that is simply apart of VIII's unique FF battle system.
Summons that act like equipment and skills? You mean like Espers in FFVI? They gave abilities and augmented statistics just like in VIII, it was just a longer list in VIII.
FFVIII is not a sci fi story. The story does not deal with issues regarding science. This had already been done in VI and VII with experimenting on humans. Science & Technology play no larger a role in its setting than swords, sorcery, and magical beasts (Guardian Forces) do.
FFVIII also has the same art structure as FFVII - 2d backgrounds in the field screen, 3d environments in the battle screen, CGI cutscenes interlaced. The cutscenes showed the characters more, and as such had much better character models.
Crossing over into the 32-bit era, myself and fellow RPG enthusiasts all regarded FFVII as the game we had all been waiting for. VIII wasn't the revolution, it was the first FF to be developed after it, and it shows from how it utilizes the same art structure as FFVII.
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As for what I love about this game, I really like the scenes it puts you in. The Edea Assassination, the Ragnarok crashing into the Lunatic Pandora, there's just amazing, imaginative scenarios the developers have come up with and put you in the middle of. This makes for memorable experiences and a great story that I feel FFVIII is cherished for. It's what the Final Fantasy franchise does best, and this game partially stands out amongst the rest for.
It is but Triple Triad has held my interest far longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
I feel its in how you see it. I personally notice his small changes and I feel it is gradual, until he finally "breaks" at the start of Disc 3. Squall created this mental defenses and I don't see him "warming up" as much as being "awkward" and "pushed into an emotional corner" which is much more human to me than someone who starts off as a jerk and just gradually becomes friendly. Neku from TWEWY is also simialr in this regard as he's a total asshole in the first chapter, becomes sympathetic in the 2nd, and finally becomes likable in the 3rd. I feel his actions do become less strong and I see him desperately try to hold onto his old way of thinking. His pushing away becomes less and less natural. To me, I find this to be growth and honestly, I like him being a loner asshole to begin with. I always seemed to agree with him about everything he thought concerning his crazy party and bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: that went on in his story.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Hey, I'm not saying he's Shakespeare or anything but I found it to be rather pleasant. There are better characters developments in gaming but I felt Squall was pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
I actually enjoyed it, the concept seemed a bit radical to me for some reason. Better than "matching game" in X.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
The Drawing system hell just not having a traditional MP system seemed rather radical to me. The idea you have to steal your magic and that it wasn't natural for people was just an intriguing concept to me. Once again this may stem from my love of VI where all magic is considered some unnatural and evil force in the world. Its not a concept seen in good traditional "fantasy" stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Summons themselves are no longer restricted to MP and now have life of their own. You could have summons killed (theoretically though it rarely happened) so its was interesting cause the game tries to make summons like characters, though it failed in terms of plot.
As for the Junction system being similar to the Esper/Relic system... I think it only seems that way on paper but its completely different in practice. The Espers stat system only affected character on level up and for many people, they may never even notice it through a first or second playthrough. The game does not go to great lengths to make a big deal out of it. Hell, most of the system is kinda optional except if you want to learn magic but you can ignore all of it and the game can fall back on its unique class system to see you through it.
Junction is the Alpha and Omega of VIII. Your normal stats are terrible and Junction is not only your means to access abilities but its your actual stats. Its almost like breaking apart the Job class system and reducing it to the statistical level. Magic itself not only needs to be drawn out from enemies but they can be utlized for different purposes that go beyond their basic function of heal/attack/support. Taking a few cues from the Materia system, magic can be used to imbue your weapons with elemental/status properties as well as for defense.
Magic itself becomes not just another means to heal and attack but can be used to alter your characters statistics. This is a very new concept, there might be a few similar systems but not as direct as VIIIs.
Summons are now regarded as "living companions" that can be killed in battle, magic is now a resource, and junctioning is your only means of not making this game a living nightmare to complete as your party really is "mortal". There not like Cloud with genetic implants and DBZ style wire-fu shenanigans, or like Terra who is half human and half living embodiment of magical energy, or Cecil whose bloodline is responsible for most magical and technological achievements of his world, nor are they blessed with a god-like power of the crystals that somehow seperate them from modern man and places them on the road to save the world. Without the Junctions, they are simply normal.
EDIT: I also like how certain RPG staples were changed, "leveling up" the cornerstone of the JRPG and most RPGs in general is now considered a bad thing. Enemies no longer drop money, instead you get paid a salary. Both of thses were very unheard of concepts in console RPGs at the time if you think about it.
This I feel is what made this game so different from a lot of things that came before it. I think FFII is the only other one like this and since I played VIII before II, it has the bigger influence for me in regards to this train of thought.
I disagree and I do feel the science element far outweighed the fantasy elements. This is my opinion and you won't be able to change my mind, so don't turn this back into that debate again as it really has nothing to do with whether VIII is a great game or not as I never implied VIII was bad for being sci-fi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
We don't need to derail this thread any further. ;)
When was squall backed into an emotional corner or forced into an awkward feeling? He shut out everyone from the beginning, and that hadn't changed at all through the story, until the end.
The only time I recall the 'emotional corner' or 'awkward feeling' was that whole scene about Seifer being 'dead' even though everyone clearly saw him leave willingly with the sorceress, and Squall ran out of the room screaming at the thought someone 'might' talk about him after he dies...
There is the "Seifer is dead scene". If you sent Rinoa onto the Missile Base Mission, then he has the closest thing to a "tender moment" with Rinoa up to that point, at FH when they reunite; the concert scene was definetly awkward, as well as his dance with Rinoa at the ballroom scene. His final breakdown comes at disc 3 (this is when he's backed into a corner) when Rinoa is unconscious in the infirmary. Not to mention his flashbacks of his past show him trying to hold onto his self-absorbed justifications. His rescue of Rinoa during the Garden battle, him rescuing her in space, and his final confrontation of his feelings for her (or as I like to think of it as him becoming aware of what his "little gunblade" is for ;)) when he breaks into the cryostation lab and frees her from being imprisoned.
I was reffering to the moments before the 'Imma save RInoa' thing, which was where I say he changed to suddenly to be realistic.
And the Seifer scene was just so freaking ridiculous I don't even want to go into those details...
I don't recall the Missile base scene you are taking about, and the Ballroom scene really didn't seem to do much at all. She forced Squall to dance, then left him all the wall. All this did was reinforce that his Ideas were right to him, and didn't exactly do anything towards the development of his character.
Which basically means before disk three, there are 3 things that happen. Two. One of which doesn't even make sense. And I don't know about the dance thing. Wasn't that after Rinoa was kidnapped anyway, making it kind of a moot in this specific conversation, as it's about how well his character was built up before the sudden change after her kidnap?
I can understand the Idea that he doesn't need to gradual change to get development, but he just completely shifts his personality all after a few short events, which I say is far less believable then a gradual change over time.
But you're ignoring his mental thoughts, he acts like a jerk and he tries to justify it in his head but slowly you watch his thoughts come to questioning his own beliefs. His gradual change is told internally.
His dialogue after speaking with Ellone in the second disc has him talking to himself about how he should be self sufficient but then he turns around and says he's lying, he's confused and doesn't know what to do, then he he wishes someone could tell him what to do and at that moment, he realizes that he may need people. I believe we get treated with one of the flashbacks of his childhood where he tries to justify to himself why he's walked this path but really if you pay attention to his inner monologues you'll see he actually spends a good deal of time fighting against his own values and slowly realizing (as his comrades point it out to him) that he really is starting to care for others.
This goes back and forth in his brain until Rinoa goes into a coma and he finally confesses to her (well, she was in the coma at the time, how Squall of him ;) ) that maybe he's running away from it all and maybe he's just afraid of getting hurt which is why he pushes people away. From there onward he becomes somewhat more open through the rest of Disc 3
The dance scene is also more important than you let on. Squall doesn't want to do it but as time goes on and he learns not to trip over Rinoa, he begins to enjoy it. Hell, the first time you see Squall laugh (and one of the few times he does) is when he first meets Rinoa. This whole scene is our first glimpse into seeing that Squall isn't a total rule junkie sour puss.
During the reunion from the Missile Mission, Squall actually talks about how glad he is to see Rinoa safe and how he may not have lived with himself had he ordered her to her death. Its kinda touching actually.
The problem remains the same, regardless of his internal monologues argueing with himself.
He changes all at once. He goes from pushing people away, to letting them in all at once. That doesn't happen. At all. To anyone. Unless they are crazy.
An example of how this change should play out is Amarant from FF IX. He, like squall, was a major Loner from the get go. However, even though he did change for the better by the end, he still held on to much of what made him who he was.
Squall, not so much. He just changed. He was, basically, a completely different person in mere moments. Maybe if we had inclings into other aspects of who he was, it wouldn't come across that way. But we know very little about Squall except for his anti-social tendencies.
And I still argue the dance Scenario is rather moot. It doesn't tell you anything about Squall one doesn't already know. He pushes people away, and that scene just affirms why he does it, which we should have been able to figure out without the dances existence by that point. Or maybe it was just painfully obvious to me. :p
And the argument with himself on disk two doesn't really change much. True, I did forget this part, but it doesn't really change much. It's still a buildup to a cracking point that manages to change him completely in a moment, which still makes no sense.
And I take issue with scenes like Rinoa, where you only get Crucial CHaracter development if you end up playing a certain way, but past that I can't really comment on it, as I don't think I witnessed that scene.
There are a lot more internal dialogue scenes like that though. He also does have moments where he tries to reach out to other characters like Zell and Selphie after they both suffer from bad moments. He actually does try to reach out to people from time to time but he does it in an awkward way and when people wonder what he's doing he backs away in fear but he actually tries.
Regarding the Missile Base reunion. Even if you bring Rinoa with you, you get a scene where he actually mentions he was worried about their safety and Rinoa questions him about his real feelings about his teammates and her. I feel you're too hung up on what you felt was a drastic change (and its not as uncommon as you think :p ) and ignoring a lot of the build-up cause Squall doesn't try to be happy or funny and instead is just awkward and bit aloof. Basically you ignore his attempts cause its not how you felt it should be done. ;)
You also miss the point of why I felt the dance scene is important. Yes it does cement why he thinks like he does but it also shows he can be open and fun if he wants to be and just let's go of his mental baggage.
Also, Amarant is a terrible character, with no real growth. He's an ass, reveals he's got a stupid reason to be an ass to you, and then never leaves your party and remains an ass. There was no growth with him imo. But I digress, this is not important to this discussion at hand.
Yes, there are a lot of internal dialogue scenes like that. A lot of them. And on all of them my point remains the same, they are all the same thing.
And I dont' even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.
And its not that I felt it's not how it should have been done, it's that they did it horribly regardless. The moments of developement with his party members you mentioned get completely overshadows by his complete and total one sided personality, and after his change of heart, he doesn't even seem like the same character anymore.
I would have been just as pissed with a gradual change, if he started teh same and ended up a colorful circus clown obsessed with Lemon pudding. THe fact is, he wasn't the same character at that point, at all. Nothing outside of his appearance felt like it was still squall.
Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.
And on the note of Amarant, he isn't an ass to you because of what you did. He simply knows you because of it. It is easy to see from the get go, being an ass is just who Amarant is.
He grabs the job upon the rumours of a tailed man yes, but thats because he wants to fight you. It has nothing to do with him being an ass. :p
And Amarant does in fact grow, if only a little. He may leave you in the end, but he begins to understand the reasons for working with other people. I recall you seeing him with Lani at the end, showing some growth to him. You say it has no importance, but in the very little screen time he was given, he showed, even if only a little, legit and believable development, something an entire game focused on Squall failed to do.
True, it could have been better, and I personally think more screen time could have helped, but thats beside the point. :p
/clapQuote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Oh, and to stay a bit more closer to the purpose of this thread - I think that a lot of the pre-rendered backgrounds in this game really gave a great overall asthetic. Definietly not up to the standard of Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy IX, but the architectual designs and overall style made we want to play through the game in its entirety; especially in Ultimecia's castle.
Also, as Ouch said, Triple Triad is a bit of fun (much better than Tetra Master).
You know, I honestly don't know if that clapping is suppose to be sarcastic or not. :p
Though you do have a point, there are some nice backrounds to be found.
And honestly, as obsurd as putting a monster filled garden inside of the Gardens was, it did look pretty cool.
Sorry, non-sarcastic. In agreeance. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
For some reason I just remember you as a big FF VIII fan, and I have no Idea why.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmecleSorry, non-sarcastic. In agreeance. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
His internal dialogue does change. He tries to justify it and eventually see's there is no basis for his logic, rather its his own fears that cause him to be this way. Its all there in the dialogue, even his real dialogue if you just pay attention. He's an ass, gets thrown into circumstances that force him to realize the values of others and recognize that his own attitude is the direct result of his personal fears of abandonment. Once he recognizes that, he tries to better himself and become open and actually winds up being a decent human being at the end of it all. How is that not gradual growth, especially when I feel the dialogue supports this.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
They are there and if you just didn't set in stone your feelings for Squall and the game, you might be able to notice them. I'm playing through the game right now and I see lots of progress and lots of times he opens up and begins to trust people. From talking to Zell after getting Balamb in trouble, to letting Selphie undergo the Missile Base missions, to actually sighing a relief and being friendly with the party when they reunite in FH. I'm not even past the second disc and I can see the growth already so I find it hard to understand where you're coming from with this "No growth" argument.Quote:
And I don't even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.
You're suppose to take both of them and see the difference. His moments of opening up along with his cold defenses. Squall's character development is a lesson in character studies. You can't just ignore one cause you feel his self defense mechanism is how he really feels. Frankly, Squall's personality is a contradiction in itself. I just get the feeling you hated Squall's asshole side and basically stereotyped him being like that.Quote:
And its not that I felt it's not how it should have been done, it's that they did it horribly regardless. The moments of development with his party members you mentioned get completely overshadows by his complete and total one sided personality, and after his change of heart, he doesn't even seem like the same character anymore.
God, Squall doesn't change that much and he does actually go back to being his usual aloof self to some degree, he just actually talks more often and tends to actually say what he's thinking. This coincides with the fact that Squall thinks one way and does another. He just finally starts doing what he's thinking. To me that is sign of growth and good change that doesn't really conflict with his attitude, cause for the first time he's actually being himself.Quote:
I would have been just as pissed with a gradual change, if he started the same and ended up a colorful circus clown obsessed with Lemon pudding. The fact is, he wasn't the same character at that point, at all. Nothing outside of his appearance felt like it was still squall.
Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree cause obviously we are not going to be convincing each other of anything. :p
True, but I still like to go back and forth. :p
Though two last things.
1) I didn't cement immidiately I hated Sqaull. First time I played I gave him an honest shot. It wasn't until a ways into disc 2 I finally decided I hated the guy, and he was, overall, a horridly done character. (And don't go trying to say I hated him because I was a IX fanboy, I didn't become one until after this game pissed me off. :p)
2) True, you probably are suppose to notice both aspects. But if you were chained down by a man who, every 2-3 minutes, kicked you in the balls, are you ever going to notice, or care, that he started a charity that actually doesn't keep most profits to himself, and uses that money not for temporary relief, but actually tries to solve the problem behind it? No, you're going to be going 'WHY THE HELL WON'T YOU STOP KICKING ME IN THE BALLS!'
and me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fonz
gosh, i love it. it's what got me into the series in the first place :o
i'd have to say because of the junctioning system. for me, it was a lot easier to junction and draw magic than having to use mp or upgrade materia like in vii. it introduced a whole 'nother way of playing an rpg, and that's what i loved about it.
plus, i loved the fact that the gfs (or summons if you'd like) could learn abilities that can really help out. ;D
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
FF VIII ia all about minor details . if you dont look at things just because they are overshadowed you are gonna lose the entire plot and the story .Quote:
And I dont' even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.
Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.
I think thats why you dont undrestand Wolf Kanno's points .
I actually fully understand his points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takero
The problem is when you have to sift through mounds of crap to find the minor details.
In the case off FF VIII, we aren't just looking for the moments that are good, you have to look past the waves of garbage just to find them.
Especially when I lost none of the plot and story in this game without all those supposed minor details. Those two things are obvious, just horribly constructed.
Because Zell and Selphie are the greatest except for Rikku and Barret.
Well, if that's the case, then it fails right there. You shouldn't have to nitpick minor details to experience the overall plot; that's just bad narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takero
Originally Posted by Omecle ^
I disagree with you on that .I love to go and search for little clues to help undrestand the game and the story and such . And FF VIII is full of such details . You understand the overall plot by just going through the game , but you miss many things that are burried under and you have to dig deep to understand them .Quote:
Originally Posted by Takero ^Well, if that's the case, then it fails right there. You shouldn't have to nitpick minor details to experience the overall plot; that's just bad narrative.
Quote:
FF VIII ia all about minor details . if you dont look at things just because they are overshadowed you are gonna lose the entire plot and the story .
Originally Posted by NeoCracker ^
Again I Disagree . FF VIII isn't full of mounds of crap in my oppinion . I think it's a fairly godd games with a good story and gameplay , but the details are what making the story of this game more than a normal good story , and Squall's change is one of the best parts of it .Quote:
The problem is when you have to sift through mounds of crap to find the minor details.
In the case off FF VIII, we aren't just looking for the moments that are good, you have to look past the waves of garbage just to find them.
Especially when I lost none of the plot and story in this game without all those supposed minor details. Those two things are obvious, just horribly constructed.
That's great that you love to do that. But if you say others need to do that or else they miss a lot of the story or hidden meanings and understandings in order to experience the plot as a whole, then it's a huge flaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takero
Also on a slightly different note, there is nothing in FFVIII that is "deep". Nothing.
It has hotdogs! I love hotdogs especially with chilli and mustard! Any FF with hotdogs is a good FF. FFVII came close with honeybee inn and random whores. :bigsmile:
FF8 is the best of them, even when you acknowledge the flaws, which strengthen the game rather than weaken it. Anyone who does not appreciate 8 is a basic ass bitch.