Is Tidus just a dream/dead or something?

Before you go and criticize me, yes, I have finished Final Fantasy X and I am almost finished with Final Fantasy X-2 :tongue:

But, I did not get the ending of Final Fantasy X...
Was Tidus just Fayth's dream? or was he real and if so, did he die?
Was Zanarkand real as well?

And I also thought while playing FFX 2, why is FFX 2 important at all...?:confused:
It really just seems like random battles and then suddenly Yuna finds out that Lenne is part of her, Lenne reunites or something with Shuyin and blah blah blah
Was all that necessary for the story line....?:confused:
Couldn't they have just ended Final Fantasy the way it was?:eep:

But I did enjoy the songs Yuna/Lenne sang in FFX 2 :)

Tidus is a part of an Aeon. "Dream Zanarkand" is essentially a single massive Aeon (just like Cindy/Sandy/Mindy or Yojimbo and his dog are considered 1 Aeon). When the summoning ends, DZ fades, and Tidus goes with it, as he is still, essentially, a part of it.

I consider FF X ending to be the true one and don't except any other.

Oooh, a fellow NYer!

Tidus was a dream of the Fayth from when Zanarkand was dying. Zanarkand used to be real, but is really now a dead city. That was what I got out of it.

The term dream can be misleading, because in these games the dreams of the Fayth can be corporeal.

DZ and Zanarkand ruins are two different locations that exist at the same time but not in the same place. Both the player and Tidus are mislead to thinking he's traveled in time for 90% of the game.

So he's as real as anyone else so long as Yu Yevon continues the summon. Once he's defeated DZ (and everyone in it including Tidus) cease to exist-corporeally at least.

If you consider FFX-2 canon, then Tidus spent some time without a physical body. As for the sequel itself, I'm of two minds:

1) It's unecessary since FFX ended on the perfect bittersweet note. It's a game-length excuse to give you a Wayne's World-style 'mega-happy ending'.

2) The gameplay is great, the battle system innovative and I liked the new characters that got introduced. Too bad the carryover characters didn't do so well.

I agree, the new characters totally make the game ('cept for the Le' bleh and her goons)... It also totally shows a side of the Fayth/Pyreflies that's extremely dark.

I happen to love Leblanc, but maybe I'm just fond of her archetype: Grandis, Crimson Scorpion, and Doronjo.

It's debatable what actually happened to Tidus at the end of FFX-2.


Let's look at Jecht for example, he too was nothing more than a dream, yet he exists in the Farplane because you hear him giving advice to YRP against Shuyin in the last battle.

It could be possible that Yuna's connection to the Fayth and her undying love for Tidus ultimately allowed him to exist.

I doubt the summonable Aeons cease to exist when they're dismissed, why should DZ be different? My guess is they simply don't have a physical form. Tidus can still whistle to Yuna in the Farplane, even without a body.

ahh the eternal debate continues, i dont mind though cause i like to hear everyone's opinions on the subject. as far as x-2 goes... i think that the creators thought that people wouldn't like the game no matter (for whatever reasons). so they used it as an excuse to create a completely new and innovative battle system. which was totally stellar btw.

Tidus is basically just a reincarnation of Shuyin. Dreams are as real as you make them and this case, they were very real for Yuna and others.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

Tidus is basically just a reincarnation of Shuyin. Dreams are as real as you make them and this case, they were very real for Yuna and others.

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where did you pull this out of?

tidus was a dream, just like the aeons and the dream zanarkand. once yu yevon was defeated, the fayth quit dreaming...thus, they disappeared.

now you might ask, how did yuna hear tidus whistle in the farplane and hear jecht?

is it possible that jecht and tidus were different because they were touched by sin and brought to the real world, and thats why they could be seen and heard in the farplane?
possibly, but that doesnt explain how tidus saw his mother in the farplane when they visited there the first time. so whats up?

most likely they just ceased to exist physically and mentally, but were technically still "spiritually" exist. when yuna asked for him in x-2., the fayth almost makes it out as "we'll see what we can do."

most likely, the fayth (the little boy) dreamed one last dream to give tidus physical existence once again.

again, thats just theory. the whole shuyin's reincarnation and being a "strong dream that they believed so much made him real" isnt even feasible.

She's half correct about the reincarnation. The passage of time in DZ is that of Spira's (because as we should know, DZ has a physical location in Spira). It is very likely that in the original dream, Shuyin was recreated by the Fayth. However, he would've eventually gone and died, since the Fayth at the time probably did not know of his demise, and they certainly would not have known that he was slowly going nuts inside the Den. Dream Shuyin does not suffer this fate; he could have done anything else. Since the War did not occur in DZ, it's not unreasonable he lived out the rest of his life with Lenne. Say Dream Shuyin had kids. It's not unfeasible that Tidus' template was based on Shuyin's, if he were a descendant.

Alternatively, Yu Yevon could've reset DZ (as he is said to be able to do) and simply based Tidus off of Shuyin's template. After 1000 years, you're bound to run out of ideas somewhere.

As for Tidus, it's pretty simple. The Fayth dreamt up DZ, and Tidus was a part of it. At the end of FFX-2, they simply decided to keep dreaming one part of the dream, since, you know, Yuna more or less gave them their freedom.

my opinion is that DZ is a model of the real zanarkand dreamed up by the faythe and all the people had real forms in real zanarkand (not the same person just the model) . And although they were not the same people tidus was created in the image of shuyin so maybe tidus's "mom" he saw was actually the real person his mom took her likness from.

I go with the physical template theory. Tidus has none of Shuyin's memories. It's quite likely that the Fayth dreaming DZ reuse physical templates in the many generations.

On a side note, many of the people you see in DZ also appear in Spira (some of whom resemble the summonable Fayth), although it says more about the game designers reusing generic designs than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

She's half correct about the reincarnation. The passage of time in DZ is that of Spira's (because as we should know, DZ has a physical location in Spira). It is very likely that in the original dream, Shuyin was recreated by the Fayth. However, he would've eventually gone and died, since the Fayth at the time probably did not know of his demise, and they certainly would not have known that he was slowly going nuts inside the Den. Dream Shuyin does not suffer this fate; he could have done anything else. Since the War did not occur in DZ, it's not unreasonable he lived out the rest of his life with Lenne. Say Dream Shuyin had kids. It's not unfeasible that Tidus' template was based on Shuyin's, if he were a descendant.

Alternatively, Yu Yevon could've reset DZ (as he is said to be able to do) and simply based Tidus off of Shuyin's template. After 1000 years, you're bound to run out of ideas somewhere.

As for Tidus, it's pretty simple. The Fayth dreamt up DZ, and Tidus was a part of it. At the end of FFX-2, they simply decided to keep dreaming one part of the dream, since, you know, Yuna more or less gave them their freedom.

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that does make sense, and is a feasible explaination. I dont agree though, if you ask me; up close shuyin and tidus look nothing alike. most likely they just had a similar build and hairstyle, and yuna stumbled upon it by happenstance. even at the beginning they were very iffy about it because the sphere was distorted and once yuna saw him closely, she instantly recognized they were different. now, for tidus being a descendant...ya I kinda see it, but there just wasnt enough...physical evidence in-game pushing the idea. they would have hinted that somehow or someway, if that was true. Most likely, it was all by chance.

I was more of emphasizing the "dreamed so hard, he was real" part. sorry if I was to blunt :p

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

I dont agree though, if you ask me; up close shuyin and tidus look nothing alike. most likely they just had a similar build and hairstyle, and yuna stumbled upon it by happenstance. even at the beginning they were very iffy about it because the sphere was distorted and once yuna saw him closely, she instantly recognized they were different. now, for tidus being a descendant...ya I kinda see it, but there just wasnt enough...physical evidence in-game pushing the idea. they would have hinted that somehow or someway, if that was true. Most likely, it was all by chance.

I was more of emphasizing the "dreamed so hard, he was real" part. sorry if I was to blunt :p

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It was more so his behavior that threw Yuna off that Shuyin was not Tidus. There was distortion in the sphere, true, but it's definitely evident that the two could be identical twins. Face, hair, clothing and vocals are very similar. They're voiced by the same voice actor, although Shuyin's voice is a bit more harsh because he's bitter. She wouldn't have said, "Is it you, or does it just look like you" if there wasn't a major resemblance.

The whole dream thing is relevant, but in the metaphysical sense he's more of a reincarnation. The Fayth wanted to recreate the past Zanarkand so they used people who were already dead based on their memory of what Zanarkand used to be. To allow this dream Zanarkand to be built, they mimicked the lives of people who were already dead. That's where the Tidus and Shuyin connection comes in.

If indeed Tidus is physically based on Shuyin entirely by chance, it's one of the flimsiest premises upon which to hang an entire plot. But I don't get the impression it was deliberate either.

honestly i highly doubt that when X came out, or at least created, they were even thinking about X-2

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

I dont agree though, if you ask me; up close shuyin and tidus look nothing alike. most likely they just had a similar build and hairstyle, and yuna stumbled upon it by happenstance. even at the beginning they were very iffy about it because the sphere was distorted and once yuna saw him closely, she instantly recognized they were different. now, for tidus being a descendant...ya I kinda see it, but there just wasnt enough...physical evidence in-game pushing the idea. they would have hinted that somehow or someway, if that was true. Most likely, it was all by chance.

I was more of emphasizing the "dreamed so hard, he was real" part. sorry if I was to blunt :p

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It was more so his behavior that threw Yuna off that Shuyin was not Tidus. There was distortion in the sphere, true, but it's definitely evident that the two could be identical twins. Face, hair, clothing and vocals are very similar. They're voiced by the same voice actor, although Shuyin's voice is a bit more harsh because he's bitter. She wouldn't have said, "Is it you, or does it just look like you" if there wasn't a major resemblance.

The whole dream thing is relevant, but in the metaphysical sense he's more of a reincarnation. The Fayth wanted to recreate the past Zanarkand so they used people who were already dead based on their memory of what Zanarkand used to be. To allow this dream Zanarkand to be built, they mimicked the lives of people who were already dead. That's where the Tidus and Shuyin connection comes in.

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from far away, people say that I look just like obama, could be twins. but once you get close and talk to me, you can tell a HELL of alot difference (political example, but its true :p)

also "is it you, or just someone who looks like you" doesnt say they are twin looking, just look similar. she immediately knew a difference in the second sphere as well, she just didnt want to admit it.

sorry, just like the above poster, I just didnt get that vibe of reincarnation or "family ancestor" from x-2. just happenstance to look alike.

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

also "is it you, or just someone who looks like you" doesnt say they are twin looking, just look similar. she immediately knew a difference in the second sphere as well, she just didnt want to admit it.

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That's what I was getting at when I said resemblance. Resemblance = similar. However there are some very slight differences with his face if you want to get technical. Though this would prove the reincarnation thing further. According to metaphysics, when the human being dies (in this case Shuyin) another (in this case Tidus) is reborn in a different body.

Since the The Fayth wanted to keep the dream of the past Zanarkand alive, they chose to recapture the essence of Shuyin. In reincarnation the person does not have to be completely the same. In this case, Tidus' behavior is nothing like Shuyins'. This can be easily explained by the fact that they have shared different experiences.

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

sorry, just like the above poster, I just didnt get that vibe of reincarnation or "family ancestor" from x-2. just happenstance to look alike.

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If you're going simply by FFX's storyline like many people, than the reincarnation thing is irrelevant, however it is very much apparent in FFX-2. I personally do not believe in reincarnation in the real world, but in the land of fictional games I don't see why it can't exist. :freak:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

also "is it you, or just someone who looks like you" doesnt say they are twin looking, just look similar. she immediately knew a difference in the second sphere as well, she just didnt want to admit it.

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That's what I was getting at when I said resemblance. Resemblance = similar. However there are some very slight differences with his face if you want to get technical. Though this would prove the reincarnation thing further. According to metaphysics, when the human being dies (in this case Shuyin) another (in this case Tidus) is reborn in a different body.

Since the The Fayth wanted to keep the dream of the past Zanarkand alive, they chose to recapture the essence of Shuyin. In reincarnation the person does not have to be completely the same. In this case, Tidus' behavior is nothing like Shuyins'. This can be easily explained by the fact that they have shared different experiences.

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

sorry, just like the above poster, I just didnt get that vibe of reincarnation or "family ancestor" from x-2. just happenstance to look alike.

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If you're going simply by FFX's storyline like many people, than the reincarnation thing is irrelevant, however it is very much apparent in FFX-2. I personally do not believe in reincarnation in the real world, but in the land of fictional games I don't see why it can't exist. :freak:

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no, I am going off of x-2. it never hints or points anywhere to reincarnation or family ancestry. and if youre theory of dream zanarkand being the exact mirror of zanarkand and tidus being the mirror of shuyin...then they would look JUST alike, as if identical twins. But, they dont.

but hey, we arent getting anywhere, we dont work for square, and we will never know.

Like a wise man once told me..."when debating, just tell em "hey, you might be on to something!" and walk off... because its better to be right and admit wrong, then to be wrong and admit right." :p

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

no, I am going off of x-2. it never hints or points anywhere to reincarnation or family ancestry. and if youre theory of dream zanarkand being the exact mirror of zanarkand and tidus being the mirror of shuyin...then they would look JUST alike, as if identical twins. But, they dont.

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Reincarnation does not have pertain to family ancestry. Persons do not have to be related to be reincarnated. It does not bluntly state that reincarnation is in the game, however it is my own interpretation. All of these games are open for interpretation especially with hazy things such as this. The dream thing is mostly in the FFX game. They don't bring up the fact that he was actually essentially created as a copy of Shuyin (to an extent) until later on; which is why I'm prone to believe you may be more inclined to only believe in FFX's storyline.

The fact that you think they don't look alike is a bit interesting to me because Square themselves have stated that he is basically a copy of Tidus' character model with some very minor modifications. Characters in the game have even commented about how they look so much alike. I suppose it's subjective, but if you look at their pictures you'll see there are some extreme similarities. You failed to realize that reincarnation does not mean that the person has to look completely identical either. As I mentioned before the person is reborn into a NEW body. It does not have to be the SAME body nor even a very SIMILAR one. Yet, in this case, I think they're are very much physically similar save for slight facial differences and clothing, but that's besides the point. :monster:

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Reincarnation does not have pertain to family ancestry. Persons do not have to be related to be reincarnated.

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thats why I said reincarnation OR family ancestry, i never said they were related.

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They don't bring up the fact that he was actually essentially created as a copy of Shuyin (to an extent) until later on

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in x-2, it never said or hinted he was a copy of shuyin, atleast not from when I played, where are you getting that from?

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Originally Posted by Dante WolfWood

in x-2, it never said or hinted he was a copy of shuyin, atleast not from when I played, where are you getting that from?

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Again, this is open for interpretation, but the games did hint at it quite a bit actually. One of the only differences is that one is just more pissed off than the other so their face is usually in a frown. This may throw some people off that they are not similar face wise. Anyway, here's some examples of this:

• The FMV of Yuna's dream about Tidus and herself running from danger correlates to the one she has later on with Shuyin and Lenne who were in the same situation.
  
• The fact that they both characters have the same voice actor named James Arnold Taylor.
  
• Square deciding to use Tidus' character model for Shuyin.
  
• Many of the characters pointing out the physical resemblances between the two.
  
• The fact that they both share the same background i.e. they're from Zanarkand though The Fayth chose to keep the harsh truth of Shuyin's memories from Tidus hence why in FFX he remembers nothing at first.
  
• Shuyin's clothing is very similar as well, though with slightly different patterns i.e. the checker box patterns. The lack of a hood and the non-fail one short leg up and one down thing that Tidus has going.
  
• They both have blond, spiky hair with some brunette roots poking out. Basically the same hairstyle. Additionally, they have a round racial structure.
  
• Shuyin's battle stance. Even his attacks are similar to Tidus'.

Just to name a few. :)

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[*]The FMV of Yuna's dream about Tidus and herself running from danger correlates to the one she has later on with Shuyin and Lenne who were in the same situation.

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this can be explained by the dressphere yuna was wearing at the time. lenne's thoughts came through yuna's dream and desire to be with tidus.

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[*]The fact that they both characters have the same voice actor named James Arnold Taylor.

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square is cheap. :p nah, I don't see that as saying they are related, just square pushing some of their "slower" game consumers to feel like yuna did, thinking they were similar. I still dont see that showing any relation.

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[*]Square deciding to use Tidus' character model for Shuyin.

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same as above, plus they were intended to look alike, thats the whole plot. so of course they use the same model.

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[*]Many of the characters pointing out the physical resemblances between the two.

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fuzzy video, sqeaky voice, same hair do, and tan skin. ya I can see why they did. but you have to remember, ALL of them were skeptical as well, especially lulu. and once they found the second one, yuna knew it wasnt him. there are just the same amount of differences as similarities.

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[*]The fact that they both share the same background i.e. they're from Zanarkand though The Fayth chose to keep the harsh truth of Shuyin's memories from Tidus hence why in FFX he remembers nothing at first.

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again just plot of the story, dont see how that would make them related. plus, tidus never knew anything about shuyin, they never met. how could tidus had known anything about him? DZ was yu yevon's desire for a thriving zanarkand. so he left out everything from the other world, from it. shuyin and tidus were no where near possible of knowing or seeing each other.

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[*]Shuyin's clothing is very similar as well, though with slightly different patterns i.e. the checker box patterns. The lack of a hood and the non-fail one short leg up and one down thing that Tidus has going.

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same as the first one....square pointing out to people "OH LOOK, he has similar clothes, it could be tidus!" but also changing just enough, to show as a different person.

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[*]They both have blond, spiky hair with some brunette roots poking out. Basically the same hairstyle. Additionally, they have a round racial structure.

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same as above

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[*]Shuyin's battle stance. Even his attacks are similar to Tidus'.[/LIST]

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again, same as above. square is cheap. why build a new model when ya have one?

Square isn't cheap. If Final Fantasy Spirits Within isn't a testament to that then I don't know what is. The point is, when making FFX they probably didn't intend to make the storyline of FFX-2 as someone mentioned before, but following the success of the game, they decided to milk it. Thus creating a sequel that purposely connected the two characters Shuyin and Tidus. This was not accidental. They're related in that game. If you are solely going by the first game as I said, then Tidus would just be merely a dream of The Fayth. Whereas in the second game it's a bit deeper than that. It's a creation manifested by their yearning to keep a part of Zanarkand alive that had died in a more literal sense.

X-2 was a retcon.

Retroactive continuity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

X should be considered a stand alone game in these kinds of arguments. The game makes clear he is a dream of the fayth and so was the Zanarkand he came from.

When the dream ends, he disappears.

I thought it was a great ending until X-2 butchered it.